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Thread: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

  1. #91
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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This undeniably proves that the GWTJ doesn't not take place at the time of His return then. Like I already said, the text in Rev 20 indicates that John saw the dead, and not that John saw both the dead and the living. The latter is adding to the text something not found in the text.
    When is the judgment of the second death executed divaD?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This undeniably proves that the GWTJ doesn't not take place at the time of His return then. Like I already said, the text in Rev 20 indicates that John saw the dead, and not that John saw both the dead and the living. The latter is adding to the text something not found in the text.
    When is the judgment of the second death executed divaD?
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Like I already said, the text in Rev 20 indicates that John saw the dead, and not that John saw both the dead and the living.
    And he calls them dead despite they were resurrected as part of the "the rest of the dead lived not UNTIL" the thousand years were finished so they resurrected and were alive but John still calls them the dead...that's because they are spiritually dead and headed directly to the second death.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except that means the living and the dead in Christ...those are the ones judged and they are judged to immortality so they can rule with him over the nations.

    The GWTJ are all of the rest...the not-dead-in-Christ
    No it doesn't. The wicked give account at the judgment of the living and the dead.

    1Pet 4
    4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
    7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except that means the living and the dead in Christ...those are the ones judged and they are judged to immortality so they can rule with him over the nations.

    The GWTJ are all of the rest...the not-dead-in-Christ
    No it doesn't. The wicked give account at the judgment of the living and the dead.

    1Pet 4
    4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
    7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This undeniably proves that the GWTJ doesn't not take place at the time of His return then. Like I already said, the text in Rev 20 indicates that John saw the dead, and not that John saw both the dead and the living. The latter is adding to the text something not found in the text.
    When is the judgment of the second death executed divaD?
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    No it doesn't. The wicked give account at the judgment of the living and the dead.
    They do not do any such thing at the judgment of the living and dead in Christ. The wicked are quite silent and non-present. The unsaved do not "give account" when they are judged either. They are not given a voice at all, but are judged according to what is in the books.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Do you really think God will let the unsaved defend themselves let alone be able to speak at all during their judgment?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    And he calls them dead despite they were resurrected as part of the "the rest of the dead lived not UNTIL" the thousand years were finished so they resurrected and were alive but John still calls them the dead...that's because they are spiritually dead and headed directly to the second death.

    And to add to that, the following also proves he is only meaning those that have already physically died at some point in their lifetime.

    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

    This isn't refering to anyone who might still be physically alive on the earth somewhere. Clearly they all physically died at some point and are being called up from their graves, thus resurrected, thus the following in John 5:29...they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They do not do any such thing at the judgment of the living and dead in Christ. The wicked are quite silent and non-present. The unsaved do not "give account" when they are judged either. They are not given a voice at all, but are judged according to what is in the books.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Do you really think God will let the unsaved defend themselves let alone be able to speak at all during their judgment?
    yep


    Matt 25
    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They do not do any such thing at the judgment of the living and dead in Christ. The wicked are quite silent and non-present. The unsaved do not "give account" when they are judged either. They are not given a voice at all, but are judged according to what is in the books.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Do you really think God will let the unsaved defend themselves let alone be able to speak at all during their judgment?
    yep


    Matt 25
    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post



    When is the judgment of the second death executed divaD?
    For sure at the GWTJ. But that doesn't mean it can't also be executed at an earlier time as well, such as at the sheep and goats judgment. I don't take the goats to mean what most take them to mean anyway. I take them to mean the unprofitable professed servants of Christ. After all, that's exactly what Jesus had been going on about towards the end of chapter 24 and and all of chapter 25 leading up to this judgment. And besides, I am of the NOSAS camp. That means I don't believe in once saved always saved to begin with.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Divad,

    The question you are asking is 'begging an assumption'. Do you realize it?

    You are begging the question of, 'if one passage discusses some parts of an event', but doesn't include all details of an event that other similar passage also discuss, then we must exclude some of the details from the event.

    Just imaging what would occur to scripture at the morning tomb, or at golgotha, or in the two Bethlehem narratives, if we expected all details, to be included to decide they are the same events?

    I Thess 4 focuses on believers at Christs return.
    It doesn't go into details about the resurrection of unbelievers.
    However; other passages elsewhere do.

    Like this one:

    John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. "


    and this one:

    Acts 24:15
    "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. "


    Seeing them together, we can see Paul just didn't discuss the details of the wicked people being resurrected in I Thess 4; but the other passages show they will too.

    Very simply scriptures to follow.

    They also show us this begging the question issue, we don't want to get into.

    Neither of the two latter verses mention 'changing from corruptible to incorruptible' or a 'trumpet sound'; or Christ returning from Heaven.
    But we know from other passages, that those details also are apart of the event.

    And if you are careful; you also realize that the verse and chapter numbers were not written by Paul.
    What we saw as I Thess 4-5 or II Thess 1-2; Paul saw as unique full passages discussing both the just and the unjust; at the time of the Lord's return.

    So we know both are involved; those who wait for Christ will find their redemption; and those who walk in darkness, with be destroyed in His flaming fire.
    Even though I indicated I tend to reason through passages according to their contexts, this doesn't mean I ignore other passages related to the subject altogether then. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, for example, in context only the fate of the saved dead and the saved alive when Christ returns, are in view here. As to the GWTJ, it has to happen after these two events recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. How do we know that for certain?

    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    The GWTJ can't precede this. Until this happens first there can't have already been the GWTJ prior to this. The chronology is then looking like this. The 2nd coming commences. The dead in Christ rise first, thus the first resurrection at the beginning of the thousand years(Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:6). Followed by we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Followed by the fulfilling of Revelation 19:21. Followed by the GWTJ, thus the 2nd and final resurrection when the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years are finished. But this doesn't indicate that the GWTJ has to immediately follow after the fulfilling of Revelation 19:21 though, but that it chronologically does.

    What else does all of the above plainly show? It shows that there are two resurrections that can't possibly happen at the same time. Until Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled first there can't even be a resurrection of the lost dead. This also shows that none of the saved in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 can possibly also be in attendance at the GWTJ because they already put on immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming, and that they do that before Revelation 19:21 is even fulfilled. Not to mention, John only sees the dead who have been raised back to life at the GWTJ. The dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 would have already been raised back to life prior to the time of the GWTJ. Thus, there couldn't possibly be any immortals also standing among the dead at the GWTJ, where some in this thread are also concluding the saved put on immortality there. No they don't though. They already put on immortality at the last trump. No one needs to put on immortality twice. That's ludicrous.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    yep


    Matt 25
    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


    I tend to agree with you on this one. This passage appears to make it clear that the lost have a voice during their judgment and sentencing, but not that they are somehow going to mange to get God to change their sentences though.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They do not do any such thing at the judgment of the living and dead in Christ. The wicked are quite silent and non-present. The unsaved do not "give account" when they are judged either. They are not given a voice at all, but are judged according to what is in the books.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Do you really think God will let the unsaved defend themselves let alone be able to speak at all during their judgment?
    At a minimum the unsaved will at least speak the following on Judgment Day.

    “Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess,
    Jesus Christ is LORD’”.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Even though I indicated I tend to reason through passages according to their contexts, this doesn't mean I ignore other passages related to the subject altogether then. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, for example, in context only the fate of the saved dead and the saved alive when Christ returns, are in view here.
    Perhaps David you did not see my previous reply by without a doubt proves they are no saved alive (living on earth). The saved dead become the saved alive once resurrected.

    I agree there are two groups. But you forgot those in the grave asleep as Paul spoke.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first...Then we which are alive and remain

    Group 2...those dead already in the grave asleep.

    You see Thessalonians had a concern is what will happen to those which already sleep. Jesus comforts them and said they will not be forgotten.

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, ]concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Do you not see the 'Then' between these two groups? The "Then' indicates chronology. Why would this involve chronology if only one group are in view?
    Do not see the colon which connects the two parts? Do you not see the pronoun "we". This includes Paul! The dead in Christ will include Paul and to those whom he speaks he clearly knew they and himself will be long in the grave until this event happens.

    And do you not also see this part? shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. Who are the them referring to? Obviously referring to Christ and the dead in Christ that rise first. Who shall be caught up together with them? Obviously referring to we which are alive and remain. Two groups.
    The "with them" are those in the grave asleep. Per what Paul said.....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    So the text should read...…

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (dead in Christ/Paul and Thessalonians) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those which currently asleep) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Come on now, this is just plain ole common sense. A fifth grader can easily grasp this, that there are two groups in view here. And you appear to be far more intelligent than a 5th grader. It puzzles me as to why you are not grasping something so obvious then?
    The truth is no believer survives the mark of the beast. No one is transformed living on the earth in a twinkling but from the grave.

    What happens when the dead are resurrected? They become ALIVE. The dead in Christ are those now which are ALIVE. Again notice the mention of those asleep.

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now concerning the rest of your post.....

    What else does all of the above plainly show? It shows that there are two resurrections that can't possibly happen at the same time. Until Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled first there can't even be a resurrection of the lost dead. This also shows that none of the saved in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 can possibly also be in attendance at the GWTJ because they already put on immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming, and that they do that before Revelation 19:21 is even fulfilled. Not to mention, John only sees the dead who have been raised back to life at the GWTJ. The dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 would have already been raised back to life prior to the time of the GWTJ. Thus, there couldn't possibly be any immortals also standing among the dead at the GWTJ, where some in this thread are also concluding the saved put on immortality there. No they don't though. They already put on immortality at the last trump. No one needs to put on immortality twice. That's ludicrous.
    Don't forget when Christ returns it is the last day. So all things which occur from when he descends in Rev 19 occur on the last day. Now this last day has no defined time length, it is a day of blackness. This is important to note as no other day (24 hour period) concludes this day.

    Thus all events on this last day hence happen at the same time, ie the last day no matter the chronology. Now what also happens on this last day in the GWT. So we have this....

    Sun becomes black, last day, day of the Lord commences and during this day you have events of I Thess 4:13-17, Rev 19, and the GWT occur.

    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    So above we have both resurrections occurring on the last day so too then the judgements.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The GWTJ are all of the rest...the not-dead-in-Christ
    All are judged at the GWT, the ungodly as well as the Godly.

    Are not all raised at the same time? The last day? Then how could they then be judged a 1000 years apart?

    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    The only way possible is for this last day to be 1000 years. But this day is of darkness and no light, so is the 1000 year period without light?. LOL.

    You see there are two groups resurrected at the GWT.

    Group 1 the saved

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    We see they are standing, scriptures state the unsaved do not stand. The book of life is present why, roll call time. And yes are works are judged. No where does it state where these folks come from just that he saw them standing. And correctly they would be the first resurrected.

    Group 2 the unsaved

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    We see specifically where these folks arise from. Hell. This is the second resurrection.

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This undeniably proves that the GWTJ doesn't not take place at the time of His return then. Like I already said, the text in Rev 20 indicates that John saw the dead, and not that John saw both the dead and the living. The latter is adding to the text something not found in the text.
    Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead.
    David,

    You miss-understand the above quote, and perhaps Jeff should have qualified it. Text does not say there are living folks on earth to be judged.

    2 Tim 4:1
    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    Who are the "quick"? Unfortunately new bible versions insert the word "living" for quick which confuses. Though "living" is not a completely wrong interpretation as such living or made alive "from the dead".

    The quick are those DEAD raised from the grave.

    I Cor 15
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

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    Re: Do anyone receive immortality at the GWTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Perhaps David you did not see my previous reply by without a doubt proves they are no saved alive (living on earth). The saved dead become the saved alive once resurrected.

    I agree there are two groups. But you forgot those in the grave asleep as Paul spoke.

    Group 1...the dead in Christ shall rise first...Then we which are alive and remain

    Group 2...those dead already in the grave asleep.

    You see Thessalonians had a concern is what will happen to those which already sleep. Jesus comforts them and said they will not be forgotten.

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, ]concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



    Do not see the colon which connects the two parts? Do you not see the pronoun "we". This includes Paul! The dead in Christ will include Paul and to those whom he speaks he clearly knew they and himself will be long in the grave until this event happens.



    The "with them" are those in the grave asleep. Per what Paul said.....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    So the text should read...…

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we (dead in Christ/Paul and Thessalonians) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those which currently asleep) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    The truth is no believer survives the mark of the beast. No one is transformed living on the earth in a twinkling but from the grave.

    What happens when the dead are resurrected? They become ALIVE. The dead in Christ are those now which are ALIVE. Again notice the mention of those asleep.

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now concerning the rest of your post.....



    Don't forget when Christ returns it is the last day. So all things which occur from when he descends in Rev 19 occur on the last day. Now this last day has no defined time length, it is a day of blackness. This is important to note as no other day (24 hour period) concludes this day.

    Thus all events on this last day hence happen at the same time, ie the last day no matter the chronology. Now what also happens on this last day in the GWT. So we have this....

    Sun becomes black, last day, day of the Lord commences and during this day you have events of I Thess 4:13-17, Rev 19, and the GWT occur.

    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    So above we have both resurrections occurring on the last day so too then the judgements.
    I need some more time to consider what you wrote here before I try and respond to any of this. It looks like you made a few interesting points. Whether those assumed points hold any water or not, not certain until I think further on what you submitted here. Sometimes I'm slow about getting around to things though. And sometimes I get sidetracked and tend to get focused on other things instead, but I will try my best to eventually get back with you on some of things you submitted here.

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