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Thread: What and when is the thousand years?

  1. #61
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    You're right and faith in Jesus is the key.

    He's showing how they were made alive in Christ and reigned with him. This book reveals not only the very person of Jesus Christ, but Christ in the lives of every believer who has ever lived.
    Thanks, I was hoping to see a bit more about Rev 20:4... but I seem to have scriptures that don't seem to line up in all the different positions. The funny thing about this, in all my searching and reading I did come across something called a “Pan-Millennialist” and I had to laugh, but this is the quote they use from their church doctrinal statement:

    “We believe God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring all earthly things (the Church, Israel, the Tribulation, and the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ) to their appropriate completion and establish the new heaven and new earth. Jesus Christ will return to the earth suddenly, personally, and visibly in glory according to His promise. The dead will be raised, and Jesus Christ will judge mankind in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to the everlasting punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. The righteous, in their resurrected and glorified bodies, will receive their reward and dwell forever with the Lord. “

    Meaning of PanMil... it will all pan out in the end.

  2. #62
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I see the beast as a demon influencing Rome in the first century mainly Nero. If you read the OP you will see what I think the 1000 years is

    I also see rev 19 not as the second coming but a constant scene of Jesus defeating His enimies over all time not with an actual weapon but with the sword out of His mouth His word
    Oops the beast is inconveniently at the second coming which contradicts your ENTIRE position. Even though Revelation is repeatedly about the second coming, now you have to treat the final description of the second coming in the bible as if it isn't the second coming very very weak exegesis that.

  3. #63
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Oops the beast is inconveniently at the second coming which contradicts your ENTIRE position. Even though Revelation is repeatedly about the second coming, now you have to treat the final description of the second coming in the bible as if it isn't the second coming very very weak exegesis that.
    Jesus coming with the sword out of his mouth isn’t a one time event Jesus proves it in the verse below

    Rev 2-16
    16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    This was Jesus showing his coming in judgement against his enemies which has been happening repeatedly from Nero to hitler and in still happening today

  4. #64
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus coming with the sword out of his mouth isn’t a one time event Jesus proves it in the verse below

    Rev 2-16
    16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    This was Jesus showing his coming in judgement against his enemies which has been happening repeatedly from Nero to hitler and in still happening today
    I am sure you can justify your view in your own mind, but Rev 19 is clearly about a huge gathering of armies, and uses language consistent with the final battle on the last day of the age. The theme of the feast of birds occurs a few times in the bible, as does the theme of the winepress of wrath, both these themes are consistent with the final Day of the Lord, and both themes occur in Rev 19. This is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming. Rev 20 places the 1000 years AFTER the believers are exposed to this beast, it's a future 1000 year period, not current.

  5. #65
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I am sure you can justify your view in your own mind, but Rev 19 is clearly about a huge gathering of armies, and uses language consistent with the final battle on the last day of the age. The theme of the feast of birds occurs a few times in the bible, as does the theme of the winepress of wrath, both these themes are consistent with the final Day of the Lord, and both themes occur in Rev 19. This is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming. Rev 20 places the 1000 years AFTER the believers are exposed to this beast, it's a future 1000 year period, not current.
    Beasts in Revelation are Kingdoms or personifications of wicked men or associated to wicked kingdoms, or as seen in Rev 13, Satan Himself.

    Beasts therefore, in the sense used in Revelation, are like AntiChrist’s in John’s epistles, they are a dime a dozen, found all throughout the ages, and not solely limited to the pre-2nd Advent only era.

    I John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

    II John 7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

  6. #66

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thanks, I was hoping to see a bit more about Rev 20:4... but I seem to have scriptures that don't seem to line up in all the different positions.
    Well, we can discuss those scriptures if you like. The temporary reign (the thousand years) is in the weakness of this flesh. That will end.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The funny thing about this, in all my searching and reading I did come across something called a “Pan-Millennialist” and I had to laugh, but this is the quote they use from their church doctrinal statement:

    “We believe God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring all earthly things (the Church, Israel, the Tribulation, and the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ) to their appropriate completion and establish the new heaven and new earth. Jesus Christ will return to the earth suddenly, personally, and visibly in glory according to His promise. The dead will be raised, and Jesus Christ will judge mankind in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to the everlasting punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. The righteous, in their resurrected and glorified bodies, will receive their reward and dwell forever with the Lord. “

    Meaning of PanMil... it will all pan out in the end.
    That it will.

    Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Gal.6:7-8

  7. #67
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Well, we can discuss those scriptures if you like. The temporary reign (the thousand years) is in the weakness of this flesh. That will end.
    Ok thanks. See I don't know what you mean by that.

    Well the problem I have is with Rev 20: 1-6 which also seem to be the only place this thousand years is even mentioned. The fact too that John called this a “first resurrection”. You know they are dead as the next verse saying “the rest of the dead”. John in Rev 20:4 does however appear to be a heavenly scene as to me these souls to me represent the “they” on the thrones. Then how do you explain “first resurrection”. To me this is a very select group of people not christians in general.

    The problem is, do I take this thousand years as literal. Jesus said this:
    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    This “but now” to me sounds like it will be literal. I tend to see this as relating to this old world not the NHNE.

    Yet in Mt 24 when Jesus is talking about end times teaching He says now learn this parable...He then brings this up:
    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Therefore you are thinking what all He is talking about is just prior to the NHNE. Anyway it is the Rev 20:1-6 that I can't seem to get my head around. We are told not to add to this prophecy Re 22:18 and to me putting in a rapture is adding, this is why I am drawn more to your understanding.

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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I am sure you can justify your view in your own mind, but Rev 19 is clearly about a huge gathering of armies, and uses language consistent with the final battle on the last day of the age. The theme of the feast of birds occurs a few times in the bible, as does the theme of the winepress of wrath, both these themes are consistent with the final Day of the Lord, and both themes occur in Rev 19. This is when the beast is destroyed, at the second coming. Rev 20 places the 1000 years AFTER the believers are exposed to this beast, it's a future 1000 year period, not current.
    But Rev 2:16 proves that it isn't a one time event.

    Who are the armies of heaven people or angles?

    Do you notice that no one besides Jesus does any fighting or has any weapons?

    This isn't a literal battle but a spiritual one.

    Revelation 2:12-17
    12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

    These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

    14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

    Jesus isn't saying here that He will come to them and kill them with a sword.

    Revelation 1:16-20
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches

    If you read above you will see that the descriptions are symbolic.

    Ephesians 6:10-17
    10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

    We see in the verses above what the sword is its the word of God

    We need to let scripture interpret scripture to see what the truth is

  9. #69
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Beasts in Revelation are Kingdoms or personifications of wicked men or associated to wicked kingdoms, or as seen in Rev 13, Satan Himself.

    Beasts therefore, in the sense used in Revelation, are like AntiChrist’s in John’s epistles, they are a dime a dozen, found all throughout the ages, and not solely limited to the pre-2nd Advent only era.
    The second coming is clearly described in Rev 19, and the SAME MARK OF THE BEAST is described in Rev 20:
    SECOND COMING OF REV 19:
    REV 19 : the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    REV 20: They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    It's the same beast. In second coming context. the 1000 years starts then.

  10. #70
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But Rev 2:16 proves that it isn't a one time event.

    Who are the armies of heaven people or angles?

    Do you notice that no one besides Jesus does any fighting or has any weapons?

    This isn't a literal battle but a spiritual one.

    Revelation 2:12-17
    12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

    These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

    14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

    Jesus isn't saying here that He will come to them and kill them with a sword.

    Revelation 1:16-20
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches

    If you read above you will see that the descriptions are symbolic.

    Ephesians 6:10-17
    10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

    We see in the verses above what the sword is its the word of God

    We need to let scripture interpret scripture to see what the truth is
    Sure Marty, the sword is used more than once. But the wedding of the Lamb, the armies of heaven, beast's armies destroyed, the great feast of birds and the winepress of wrath, and beast thrown into the lake of fire are ONETIME events at the end of the world. Please do not try to dilute the second coming wording of Rev 19, it is the second coming.

  11. #71
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The second coming is clearly described in Rev 19, and the SAME MARK OF THE BEAST is described in Rev 20:
    SECOND COMING OF REV 19:
    REV 19 : the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    REV 20: They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    It's the same beast. In second coming context. the 1000 years starts then.
    The overall beast is Satan.
    He spans all kingdoms and all ages.
    His mark is not a Hal Lindsay microchip; but rejection of Christ and alignment with Satan and his anti-christ kingdom that is against Christ in all ages.

    Antichrists, beasts, and the mark of the beast existed long before the 1st century, existed during the first century, and all centuries since; and will continue until Christ returns, and takes out the trash.

    I John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

    II John 7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."


    Here is the great beast that encompases all wicked earthly kingdoms and antichrists....

    Revelation
    12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns"

    12:9 "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"

    13:1 "and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns"

    Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. "

  12. #72
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Anyway it is the Rev 20:1-6 that I can't seem to get my head around.
    I too as most had the same problem with this verse until I came to understand the "rest of the dead ' are meant to mean the rest of the dead believers (those not mentioned in verse 4) whom take part in the first resurrection.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Above are specific Christians only which were beheaded during a specific time of the mark of the beast. No others.

    Now I believe they are the 144,000 which we are told were sealed of God, which I would take have the mark of God in their foreheads. Thus the beast is angry they do not receive his mark and beheads them to separate the mark of God. Where are the others?

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    I understand most take the verse to relate to verse 4 but again, verse 4 are only the martyred. Note these in verse 5 "live" again which signifies believers. Thus the phrase "first resurrection" relates to the rest of the dead whom in this context are the rest of the dead believers.

    Furthermore, we are told one group lives and reign (verse 4) and the another group are priests and reign (verse 5). If you took verse 5 to mean rest of the dead unbelievers then you have those in verse 4 both reigning and being priests when clearly there are two groups in view both believers. Those which were martyred and the rest which did not die a martyred death.

    Now the question would be is how can those in verse 4, the martyred, not take part in the first resurrection?. When then are they resurrected? This group is martyred before the first resurrection once Christ returns, they are the firstfruits of the resurrection. Again the reason they are the 144,000. Notice they are already in Zion with Christ before he returns.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


    So again the key to understanding this passage is to understand the "rest of the dead" here are the rest of the dead believers.

  13. #73
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The overall beast is Satan.
    He spans all kingdoms and all ages.
    His mark is not a Hal Lindsay microchip; but rejection of Christ and alignment with Satan and his anti-christ kingdom that is against Christ in all ages.

    Antichrists, beasts, and the mark of the beast existed long before the 1st century, existed during the first century, and all centuries since; and will continue until Christ returns, and takes out the trash.

    I John 2:18: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

    II John 7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."


    Here is the great beast that encompases all wicked earthly kingdoms and antichrists....

    Revelation
    12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns"

    12:9 "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"

    13:1 "and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns"

    Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. "

    Sure the spirit of antichrist has existed throughout the centuries, but the bible describes a specific beast who rules for 42 months:
    Rev 13 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

    We must correctly divide the word. You are trying to dilute precise wording about a precise beast in a precise 42 month period. The MARK of the beast occurs SPECIFICALLY in the context of that beast who reigns for 42 months, being in Rev 13 .
    Then this beast and his mark are mentioned again in Rev 19, and Rev 20.

    You are not just trying to blur my words, but the are trying to blur the truth of the bible. By denying there is a 42 month beast associated with the Mark of the beast, and this beast associated with the mark of the beast is destroyed AT THE SECOND COMING. It's all there clearly in Revelation. It is this same beast associated with the mark of the beast, who just 6 verses later (in Rev 20:4) is associated with the START of the 1000 years.

  14. #74
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure the spirit of antichrist has existed throughout the centuries, but the bible describes a specific beast who rules for 42 months:
    Rev 13 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

    We must correctly divide the word. You are trying to dilute precise wording about a precise beast in a precise 42 month period. The MARK of the beast occurs SPECIFICALLY in the context of that beast who reigns for 42 months, being in Rev 13 .
    Then this beast and his mark are mentioned again in Rev 19, and Rev 20.

    You are not just trying to blur my words, but the are trying to blur the truth of the bible. By denying there is a 42 month beast associated with the Mark of the beast, and this beast associated with the mark of the beast is destroyed AT THE SECOND COMING. It's all there clearly in Revelation. It is this same beast associated with the mark of the beast, who just 6 verses later (in Rev 20:4) is associated with the START of the 1000 years.
    No blurring .

    Satan is the beast giving power to ‘all’ beasts and ‘all’ antichrists before the 1st century, during the first century, during the NT era, during the 2nd coming, and will always be present until Christ comes to destroy them with the sword out of His mouth.

    The mark is allegiance in the head(mind) and hand(actions) of a person aligned against Christ.
    It occurs in the verses you list, and as apostacy grows globally as we near Christ’s return, those aligning with the Great Beast Satan will explode in number (see the Muslim hordes now as an example)

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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I too as most had the same problem with this verse until I came to understand the "rest of the dead ' are meant to mean the rest of the dead believers (those not mentioned in verse 4) whom take part in the first resurrection.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Above are specific Christians only which were beheaded during a specific time of the mark of the beast. No others.

    Now I believe they are the 144,000 which we are told were sealed of God, which I would take have the mark of God in their foreheads. Thus the beast is angry they do not receive his mark and beheads them to separate the mark of God. Where are the others?

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    I understand most take the verse to relate to verse 4 but again, verse 4 are only the martyred. Note these in verse 5 "live" again which signifies believers. Thus the phrase "first resurrection" relates to the rest of the dead whom in this context are the rest of the dead believers.

    Furthermore, we are told one group lives and reign (verse 4) and the another group are priests and reign (verse 5). If you took verse 5 to mean rest of the dead unbelievers then you have those in verse 4 both reigning and being priests when clearly there are two groups in view both believers. Those which were martyred and the rest which did not die a martyred death.

    Now the question would be is how can those in verse 4, the martyred, not take part in the first resurrection?. When then are they resurrected? This group is martyred before the first resurrection once Christ returns, they are the firstfruits of the resurrection. Again the reason they are the 144,000. Notice they are already in Zion with Christ before he returns.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


    So again the key to understanding this passage is to understand the "rest of the dead" here are the rest of the dead believers.
    I never thought about the 144,000 before so that is new to me, and I see what you are saying. I do see Rev 20:5 “the rest of the dead” as counting believers...I see it is counting both believers and unbelievers because vs 6 is referring to both. So it counting believers is not my problem. This is why I keep coming back to Rev 20:4...it is this thousand years I have a problem with. There will be a thousand year period of time where these are reigning with Christ. To me Christ reigns now. So this is talking about a specific time to me and only for a thousand years. I do not have a problem with the Lord raising to “life” at any given time who He so chooses. So let me ask you a question... is this verse a type of “lived and reigned” to you?
    Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    I mean we are NOT told that the souls in Rev 20:4 are resurrected...we are told they “lived and reigned”. So did Elias “live” to you?

    This is to me how I am wondering about seeing this. What are your thoughts about the word “lived” in the way Elias “lived”? Could this be the meaning of “lived and reigned”?

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