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Thread: What and when is the thousand years?

  1. #106
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Regarding the vision John saw in revelation 12 regarding the fall of Satan from Heaven. I do not believe that was referring to Heaven before creation. We often look at Heaven in Revelation as God's heaven, but there were other heavens mentioned in the bible. I believe the heaven in this chapter was referring to Satan's throne prior to Christs death. Satan roamed the earth and he was present in the worship as they came before God. In Job, Satan came with Job to worship as they presented themselves and their sacrifices before the Lord. He had a presence among them. With the new grace covenant or the heaven John saw, Satan was cast out. He cannot enter therein. To worship God is to worship him in spirit and in truth, not in natural sacrificial offerings. To enter into this heaven, you must come in through Christ. That door is closed to Satan and it was closed when he was overcome by the blood of the Lamb. Then he was cast down.

    Yes agree, regarding the pit. I don't think it's a literal pit. Just a period of Satan's bondage until the son of Perdition is revealed. And then it's gonna get real ugly.
    That particular fall of Satan occurs AFTER the church has preached, so it CANNOT occur at the crucifixion, unfortunately your doctrine is wrong.
    the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.
    11 They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.


    Hopefully you can acknowledge that the church is accused by Satan, and the church triumphs over Satan via the blood of the lamb, testimony and martyrdom. THEN, ONLY THEN does Satan fall. So the fall HAS TO OCCUR after the church has been around a while. (Caps lock just for emphasis because you did not seem to catch onto this earlier). So to claim that Satan has been in some pit, when he has actually been accusing the church from some heavenly location is inaccurate.

  2. #107

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post




    We seem to agree that this final beast associated with 3.5 years and the mark of the beast in Rev 13 is actually associated with the same timeframe of 3.5 years as the abomination of Daniel. also matching the final period of the man of sin.

    Knowing that this beast who persecutes and has a "mark of the beast" is mentioned in Rev 13, surely this beast is the SAME as the beast who persecutes and has a "mark of the beast" in Rev 20? Surely?

    Yet the 1000 YEAR reign of the martyrs only STARTS then after that time of persecution. Also the word "resurrection" is almost exclusively used in context of the actual end-times resurrection of the dead which occurs at the second coming, surely this is the "first resurrection" in Rev 20? This resurrection is when the 1000 years starts if we use the word "resurrection" in the way the Greek NT uses the word "anastasis".
    I agree that the beasts are the same as discussed in Rev 13 and in Rev 20.

    Regarding the 1000 year period, just because it is written in Rev 20, does not mean that it happens last just because it was written then. John wrote the visions as he saw them. The resurrection is an end time event. It's the extreme end. Period! Nothing afterward.

    Regarding the 1st resurrection. The 1st resurrection is Christ. Happy is he who is part of that resurrection (the 1st resurrection). The 2nd death (hell) has no power over them. A Christians 2nd death is the grave. The 1st death is when he crucified the old man of sin. If you are born again, then being raised in Christ is the 1st resurrection for the saints.

    If you have not been born again, then 1st resurrection for them will be when Christ return and they will have part in the 2nd death (hell).

  3. #108
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I agree that the beasts are the same as discussed in Rev 13 and in Rev 20.

    Regarding the 1000 year period, just because it is written in Rev 20, does not mean that it happens last just because it was written then. John wrote the visions as he saw them. The resurrection is an end time event. It's the extreme end. Period! Nothing afterward.
    You are saying that but the text is saying there are 1000 years after the resurrection, and the word resurrection "anastasis" is specifically used in the NT to describe the resurrection of dead people. This is a general resurrection of many people and so cannot be referring to just Jesus.

    Also my argument is based on these martyrs specifically being martyred by that 42 MONTH BEAST of Rev 13, which we both agreed is an end - times period. If they are martyred in the last 3.5 years, this makes your view of an earlier 1000 years impossible.



    Regarding the 1st resurrection. The 1st resurrection is Christ. Happy is he who is part of that resurrection (the 1st resurrection). The 2nd death (hell) has no power over them. A Christians 2nd death is the grave. The 1st death is when he crucified the old man of sin. If you are born again, then being raised in Christ is the 1st resurrection for the saints.

    If you have not been born again, then 1st resurrection for them will be when Christ return and they will have part in the 2nd death (hell).
    Nah. That resurrection is specifically related to many coming to life, not just Christ:
    They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

  4. #109

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    That particular fall of Satan occurs AFTER the church has preached, so it CANNOT occur at the crucifixion, unfortunately your doctrine is wrong.
    the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.
    11 They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.


    Hopefully you can acknowledge that the church is accused by Satan, and the church triumphs over Satan via the blood of the lamb, testimony and martyrdom. THEN, ONLY THEN does Satan fall. So the fall HAS TO OCCUR after the church has been around a while. (Caps lock just for emphasis because you did not seem to catch onto this earlier). So to claim that Satan has been in some pit, when he has actually been accusing the church from some heavenly location is inaccurate.
    I disagree with you.

    It says he prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. The great dragon was cast out, and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. Can't get any more clear than this.

    Revelation 12:
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

  5. #110
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I disagree with you.

    It says he prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. The great dragon was cast out, and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. Can't get any more clear than this.

    Revelation 12:
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    Exactly, they overcame him by the blood of the lamb. Which means this had to be after the crucifixion when Satan fell. What's to disagree with?

  6. #111

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You are saying that but the text is saying there are 1000 years after the resurrection, and the word resurrection "anastasis" is specifically used in the NT to describe the resurrection of dead people. This is a general resurrection of many people and so cannot be referring to just Jesus.

    Also my argument is based on these martyrs specifically being martyred by that 42 MONTH BEAST of Rev 13, which we both agreed is an end - times period. If they are martyred in the last 3.5 years, this makes your view of an earlier 1000 years impossible.




    Nah. That resurrection is specifically related to many coming to life, not just Christ:
    They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    It does not say there was 1000 years after the resurrection. You are interpreting it that way. It says the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    But the "rest of the dead" was referring to the sinners that had died. That was the 1st resurrection for them (being the rest of the dead).

    Revelation 12:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

  7. #112

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Exactly, they overcame him by the blood of the lamb. Which means this had to be after the crucifixion when Satan fell. What's to disagree with?
    Well, we agree on that point that Satan fell from Heaven after the crucifixion.

  8. #113
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    It does not say there was 1000 years after the resurrection. You are interpreting it that way. It says the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Regardless of how we view the resurrection, the fact that those martyred under this end-times beast then live and reign for 1000 years means that the 1000 years starts from that point.


    But the "rest of the dead" was referring to the sinners that had died. That was the 1st resurrection for them (being the rest of the dead).
    Earlier you said the "first resurrection" is Christ. You seem to be changing your mind now.

  9. #114
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Well, we agree on that point that Satan fell from Heaven after the crucifixion.
    Exactly. We may disagree how long after. I see this as the gospel being preached to all nations first, because Satan's fall and wrath is associated with a final 3.5 year period. Thus context points to Satan existing in that heavenly region accusing the saints even now, which is consistent with other verses in the NT which describe our current fight against evil rulers and authorities in heavenly places. This creates a consistent picture of that our enemies exist in the heavenlies and not in a pit.

    On the balance of logic it appears that the current location of Satan, and the martyrdom of the saints under the end-times beast are events that have not occurred now. Of course the bible is subject to interpretation but if you take the most obvious contextual meaning of various verses about the beast and the 1000 years it is obvious that the 1000 years has not even started yet.

  10. #115

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Exactly. We may disagree how long after. I see this as the gospel being preached to all nations first, because Satan's fall and wrath is associated with a final 3.5 year period. Thus context points to Satan existing in that heavenly region accusing the saints even now, which is consistent with other verses in the NT which describe our current fight against evil rulers and authorities in heavenly places. This creates a consistent picture of that our enemies exist in the heavenlies and not in a pit.

    On the balance of logic it appears that the current location of Satan, and the martyrdom of the saints under the end-times beast are events that have not occurred now. Of course the bible is subject to interpretation but if you take the most obvious contextual meaning of various verses about the beast and the 1000 years it is obvious that the 1000 years has not even started yet.
    The church was what Christ was establishing when he came. These were Jews that he was preaching to, living still by the old covenant. The gospel was preached by Christ and his disciples to them and them only. Satan tried to destroy Christ on every occasion. Once when Herod killed all the children under 2 trying to kill him. The Woman is Jerusalem (the mother of us all). The woman brought forth the man child and was caught up to God and his throne (Rev 12:5). The point of the woman's birth of the man child was then. The woman fled in the wilderness and was fed (a thousand two hundred and three score years). This was the 3-1/2 year ministry period of Christ when the woman was nourished.

    So no, the fall of Satan in Chapter 12 was Christ crucifixion and is how Satan was defeated.

    Satan was angry and went to make war with the remnant of his seed. This is the church after the resurrection of Christ and setting the stage for the end time events.

  11. #116

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post


    Earlier you said the "first resurrection" is Christ. You seem to be changing your mind now.
    The 1st resurrection is Christ. Being born again is partaking of the 1st Resurrection (for the saints). They are partakers in the power of Christ by his resurrection. Blessed are those who have part in the 1st resurrection. The 2nd death will have no power over the Christians.

    The sinner does not have part in this resurrection. The 1st resurrection of the sinners is when Christ raises them from the dead when he returns. They will take part in the 2nd death.

  12. #117
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    the fall of Satan in Chapter 12 was Christ crucifixion and is how Satan was defeated.
    So where did he fall to?

    Satan was angry and went to make war with the remnant of his seed. This is the church
    Note the remnant is consistently detailed as the 144,000. Also they are defined as keeping the commandments, Israel not the church.

    And if all this occurred during the time of Christ then chapter 13 has to be in the past as well, was there a mark of the beast in the first century?

  13. #118
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The 1st resurrection is Christ. Being born again is partaking of the 1st Resurrection (for the saints). They are partakers in the power of Christ by his resurrection. Blessed are those who have part in the 1st resurrection. The 2nd death will have no power over the Christians.

    The sinner does not have part in this resurrection. The 1st resurrection of the sinners is when Christ raises them from the dead when he returns. They will take part in the 2nd death.

    Understand the first resurrection is so called due the fact the it is the first AFTER he returns. There have been resurrections prior so it is not THEE first of all time.

  14. #119
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    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Satan's fall and wrath is associated with a final 3.5 year period.
    Correct. But where does he fall to? If he already is like a roaring lion upon earth, then he just can't fall back to the earth surface can he?

    Notice after falling in chapter 12 he comes UP from beneath the sea and the earth Rev 13. First beast from sea, the second from earth.

    So when he is thrown he goes into the earth and the sea, not the surface but beneath. So what lies under the earth and also under the sea? The pit.

    John is looking out over Patmos upon the water and sees a beast rise up, therefore the bottomless pit is located under the earth which is covered by sea in this region.

    I have had a previous thread concerning this that at the beginning the earth was one with a center eye of water in which the pit was located beneath. The land scape has since change due to the flood, but the location of the pit remains.

    Thus context points to Satan existing in that heavenly region accusing the saints even now,
    Yes

    it is obvious that the 1000 years has not even started yet.
    Correct as he is yet in the pit. But as we see the beast is thrown into the pit Rev 12, and comes up from there in Rev 13. (also a reference in Rev 11, 17). So then where does that leave the "1000" years" in which Satan is to be in the pit. Is he again thrown in later after Christ returns? LOL. Thus the 1000 years has to start in Rev 12 and end in Rev 13. But there sure does not appear that the literal 1000 years can fit in this time frame. Hence the 1000 years is a metaphor not literal reference.

  15. #120

    Re: What and when is the thousand years?

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3499497]

    So where did he fall to?



    Note the remnant is consistently detailed as the 144,000. Also they are defined as keeping the commandments, Israel not the church.

    And if all this occurred during the time of Christ then chapter 13 has to be in the past as well, was there a mark of the beast in the first century?
    Your question is: So where did he fall to?

    Rev 12:9 says he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him.

    Rev 12:9
    "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    Your other question: And if all this occurred during the time of Christ then chapter 13 has to be in the past as well, was there a mark of the beast in the first century?

    You are making this assumption. What we know is what John saw.

    Rev 12:13 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

    I personally do not believe this beast is totally futuristic. Revelation is not the only place in the bible that gives reference to the beast. But I think the focus of Rev 13 is regarding the rise of power of the beast and the son of perdition, which was discussed by Daniel, Jesus (Matthew 24), and Paul (2 Thes. 2).

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