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Thread: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

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    The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    I've been following but not commenting on the threads about the "abomination of desolation". Maybe it is time to speak about another view but by no means, do I wish to say this one replaces the historical or yet to be abomination of desolations that have occurred or will occur. There is a literal abomination of desolation. But there's also a personal one for us as well. Also note the word order... it is an abomination of desolation. It is not an abomination that causes desolation but rather, one that results from desolation.

    2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    God created the body to be His temple. We know the scriptures that say this. But, before Jesus comes, the man of sin must be revealed. Before Jesus comes, our heart is desolate, empty of righteousness and full of sin. And for each of us, there comes a time when God opens up the eyes of our heart and we see that we have placed ourselves on the throne in the temple (our heart/body). We have declared ourselves god of our own lives. We have ruled as we saw fit. We have done what is right in our own eyes. We thought we knew good and evil, and we did, though it was a perverted and twisted version of good and evil we still knew it on some level. Because of that, we were full of judgment of other people, full of sin. We were the abomination (and are) of desolation. God wasn't in us and it showed! Our sin was a huge black hole that was so large, we became undone before Him. And God began to show us that we are the "man of sin" who set himself up as god in the "temple" and committed the "abomination of desolation". As we repent of being our own god, only then can or will Jesus appear in glory to us as Savior and everything changes after that!

    God bless!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    David Taylor posted this verse in one of the threads and I thought it a good one to post here. I meant to put it in the first post but forgot.

    “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD” Proverbs 29:27

    Have we not been angry at God and justified ourselves? In my anger, have I not condemned God the Just, while justifying Mark the Wicked? I was angry at God before I got saved. Very angry. But as I grew, I learned that I was not so much angry at Him as I was angry at who I thought He was. He saw that, and graciously revealed Himself to me and saved me from hell and from myself.

    Grace and peace,

    Mark
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    I think your humility is good and right. However, I don't think the AoD terminology fits well, in view of the fact we *have* repented. The idea of an "abomination" also relates to a "rebellion," indicating an unwillingness to repent.

    Some versions have the Antichrist referred to in 2 Thes 2 as a "rebellion," or an "apostasy." That is a tenacious hold onto one's own way, along with a determination not to repent.

    The same terminology takes place with regard to Antiochus 4, and his own "rebellion that causes desolation" in Dan 8.12-13. The abomination is a apparently a determination to rebel against God by committing sacrilege in God's holy places, and by proposing idolatry in place of the worship of God. This kind of "rebellion" does not really characterize sinners who are in fact willing to repent, once they have received the knowledge of the truth.

    So although I agree that we can be wicked and rebellious, I think the AoD terminology goes past this to indicate that the knowledge of God is being rejected in favor of continuous rebellion. But I could be wrong...

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think your humility is good and right. However, I don't think the AoD terminology fits well, in view of the fact we *have* repented. The idea of an "abomination" also relates to a "rebellion," indicating an unwillingness to repent.

    Some versions have the Antichrist referred to in 2 Thes 2 as a "rebellion," or an "apostasy." That is a tenacious hold onto one's own way, along with a determination not to repent.

    The same terminology takes place with regard to Antiochus 4, and his own "rebellion that causes desolation" in Dan 8.12-13. The abomination is a apparently a determination to rebel against God by committing sacrilege in God's holy places, and by proposing idolatry in place of the worship of God. This kind of "rebellion" does not really characterize sinners who are in fact willing to repent, once they have received the knowledge of the truth.

    So although I agree that we can be wicked and rebellious, I think the AoD terminology goes past this to indicate that the knowledge of God is being rejected in favor of continuous rebellion. But I could be wrong...
    Ultimately the passage is about the AoD and the man of sin and the gathering of the Saints. As you said, the view of the OP is not a complete fit.

    I sure am grateful that God did not leave me in the state of being my own and only god. My life and my heart were wretched and blind and self centered. I am still amazed that He broke through all that, and gave me mercy and grace.

    God bless you Brother Randy.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Ultimately the passage is about the AoD and the man of sin and the gathering of the Saints. As you said, the view of the OP is not a complete fit.

    I sure am grateful that God did not leave me in the state of being my own and only god. My life and my heart were wretched and blind and self centered. I am still amazed that He broke through all that, and gave me mercy and grace.

    God bless you Brother Randy.
    Thank you, brother. You are a blessing. I was talking with my flesh and blood brother today, as I do most Mondays. And we discussed the role we may play as men in choosing for Christ. We all know that in TULIP there is the belief that men are totally depraved. Although I have Calvinist tendencies, I don't agree that we are totally depraved. We were made in the image of God with the capacity and bent towards responding to God's word. We were made to respond in obedience to God's word, to want to be like God in every way.

    But we also have freedom to choose. When God's word comes to us, we can either accept it or reject it, obey it or disobey it, believe it or not believe it. But when we believe God's word we can receive God's Spirit into our lives, and we become new creatures.

    So we begin with free will, which was made good, although corrupted. But we can use the good that is in us to choose for God's word, and to thus be renewed inwardly. When we do so we can be motivated from within towards all kinds of free good works.

    I say all this because there is, I think, an important distinction between men who choose for Christ and those who choose against him. Those who choose for Christ show that they are *not* desperately wicked, and can make a free choice for the good. This makes us partners in our salvation, not in the sense we are involved in our own atonement, but rather, because we receive from that atonement the empowerment within to be like Christ in all that we do.

    If we are as desperately wicked as those who choose against Christ I doubt that God's grace would do us any good. We would just continually turn against Christ.

    And that's the difference between Satan's children and God's children. We make use of who God made us to be, and respond favorably to His word. The rest freely reject the thing they were created to be, and render themselves illegitimate for life on this planet. Where they go I don't know. But I believe they will have to serve God in the end, no matter where they end up.

  6. #6

    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Hi

    I'm new here. I was just browsing around and this looked interesting.

    If I may, I believe you have a lot figured out here. That's awesome. From heavy reading and studying, I personally would leave the people and Satan separate. AoD is another one of his names and only his. I would heavily agree that we as children of GOD and those of which are not, do perform abominations and sin continually. I would however fear connecting AoD to the people. There are many other words to describe and define what you mean. This I would believe, desensitizes the very nature of the beast and takes away from who to watch out for. Which is exactly to the "T" who Paul was talking about.

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Struggleisreal View Post
    Hi

    I'm new here. I was just browsing around and this looked interesting.

    If I may, I believe you have a lot figured out here. That's awesome. From heavy reading and studying, I personally would leave the people and Satan separate. AoD is another one of his names and only his. I would heavily agree that we as children of GOD and those of which are not, do perform abominations and sin continually. I would however fear connecting AoD to the people. There are many other words to describe and define what you mean. This I would believe, desensitizes the very nature of the beast and takes away from who to watch out for. Which is exactly to the "T" who Paul was talking about.
    I don't personally associate the AoD with the Antichrist, though I know many here do. But I would agree that the AoD is more akin to Antichrist than to regular people. People largely have a choice, and make many shades of choices. But the AoD suggests a major rebellion against Christ, such as the Antichrist does.

    My own personal belief is that the AoD is associated with Antiochus 4 in 167 BC or 168 BC. And it is also associated, in Dan 9 and in the Olivet Discourse, with the Roman Army encircling Jerusalem 66-70 AD.

    Paul does talk about Antichrist taking his seat in the temple of God, which we assume will take place in the endtimes. But it is not described as an AoD there, in 2 Thes 2. But generally, I agree with your emphasis, that this is more of a satanic event than an average human event. People are sinful, but not always despicably so. But the rebellion of the AoD depicts a despicably evil event. And we shouldn't characterize people that way, who are created in God's image. I trust I have you right?

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I've been following but not commenting on the threads about the "abomination of desolation". Maybe it is time to speak about another view but by no means, do I wish to say this one replaces the historical or yet to be abomination of desolations that have occurred or will occur. There is a literal abomination of desolation. But there's also a personal one for us as well. Also note the word order... it is an abomination of desolation. It is not an abomination that causes desolation but rather, one that results from desolation.

    2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    God created the body to be His temple. We know the scriptures that say this. But, before Jesus comes, the man of sin must be revealed. Before Jesus comes, our heart is desolate, empty of righteousness and full of sin. And for each of us, there comes a time when God opens up the eyes of our heart and we see that we have placed ourselves on the throne in the temple (our heart/body). We have declared ourselves god of our own lives. We have ruled as we saw fit. We have done what is right in our own eyes. We thought we knew good and evil, and we did, though it was a perverted and twisted version of good and evil we still knew it on some level. Because of that, we were full of judgment of other people, full of sin. We were the abomination (and are) of desolation. God wasn't in us and it showed! Our sin was a huge black hole that was so large, we became undone before Him. And God began to show us that we are the "man of sin" who set himself up as god in the "temple" and committed the "abomination of desolation". As we repent of being our own god, only then can or will Jesus appear in glory to us as Savior and everything changes after that!

    God bless!
    Paul's "mystery of lawlessness" is the exact same thing as his "man of sin" which is the exact same thing as the "old man" we put off when we come to faith.

    Note how the ESV phrases this, using the term "self" for man.


    EPH 4:22-23
    22 to put off your old self,[a] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


    Ephesians 4:22-24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    22 ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit


    So the point here is that Paul's "man of sin" is a metaphor alluding to the display of the "self" and selfishness in general, among all people.
    Also see Romans 6:6

    New International Version
    For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--

    English Standard Version
    We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

    King James Bible
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Contemporary English Version
    We know that the persons we used to be were nailed to the cross with Jesus. This was done, so our sinful bodies would no longer be the slaves of sin.

    Good News Translation
    And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross, in order that the power of the sinful self might be destroyed, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin.

    International Standard Version
    We know that our old natures were crucified with him so that our sin-laden bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Paul's "mystery of lawlessness" is the exact same thing as his "man of sin" which is the exact same thing as the "old man" we put off when we come to faith.

    Note how the ESV phrases this, using the term "self" for man.


    EPH 4:22-23
    22 to put off your old self,[a] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


    Ephesians 4:22-24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    22 ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit


    So the point here is that Paul's "man of sin" is a metaphor alluding to the display of the "self" and selfishness in general, among all people.
    Also see Romans 6:6

    New International Version
    For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--

    English Standard Version
    We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

    King James Bible
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Contemporary English Version
    We know that the persons we used to be were nailed to the cross with Jesus. This was done, so our sinful bodies would no longer be the slaves of sin.

    Good News Translation
    And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross, in order that the power of the sinful self might be destroyed, so that we should no longer be the slaves of sin.

    International Standard Version
    We know that our old natures were crucified with him so that our sin-laden bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin.
    Can't agree with that. The "old man" is simply our carnal selves, which is old and dying. It was our previous existence. By contrast, the "man of sin" is a reference, by Paul, to the "little horn" of Dan 7--the Antichrist. I don't know why you're confusing them.

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Can't agree with that. The "old man" is simply our carnal selves, which is old and dying. It was our previous existence. By contrast, the "man of sin" is a reference, by Paul, to the "little horn" of Dan 7--the Antichrist. I don't know why you're confusing them.
    Symbolically, he's right. We are tempted to be our own god. It was the temptation in the garden. Our bodies were made to be the temple of God, yet, we think we have the right to rule them i.e. setting ourselves up as god in the temple of God that is desolate. We were a man of sin, setting ourselves up in the temple of god. That is an abomination of desolation. Once we are saved, that begins to change. However, being a man of sin is far different than being THE man of sin.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Symbolically, he's right. We are tempted to be our own god. It was the temptation in the garden. Our bodies were made to be the temple of God, yet, we think we have the right to rule them i.e. setting ourselves up as god in the temple of God that is desolate. We were a man of sin, setting ourselves up in the temple of god. That is an abomination of desolation. Once we are saved, that begins to change. However, being a man of sin is far different than being THE man of sin.
    If you're referring to what Aijalon said, she's a "she." I can understand how you can say the sins of rebellion and apostasy can be our own sins, and still be forgiven. I guess the major difference between children of God and children of Satan are not so much the quality of sins as the will to repent or not repent?

  12. #12

    Re: The real abomination of desolation :) Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I've been following but not commenting on the threads about the "abomination of desolation". Maybe it is time to speak about another view but by no means, do I wish to say this one replaces the historical or yet to be abomination of desolations that have occurred or will occur. There is a literal abomination of desolation. But there's also a personal one for us as well. Also note the word order... it is an abomination of desolation. It is not an abomination that causes desolation but rather, one that results from desolation.

    2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    God created the body to be His temple. We know the scriptures that say this. But, before Jesus comes, the man of sin must be revealed. Before Jesus comes, our heart is desolate, empty of righteousness and full of sin. And for each of us, there comes a time when God opens up the eyes of our heart and we see that we have placed ourselves on the throne in the temple (our heart/body). We have declared ourselves god of our own lives. We have ruled as we saw fit. We have done what is right in our own eyes. We thought we knew good and evil, and we did, though it was a perverted and twisted version of good and evil we still knew it on some level. Because of that, we were full of judgment of other people, full of sin. We were the abomination (and are) of desolation. God wasn't in us and it showed! Our sin was a huge black hole that was so large, we became undone before Him. And God began to show us that we are the "man of sin" who set himself up as god in the "temple" and committed the "abomination of desolation". As we repent of being our own god, only then can or will Jesus appear in glory to us as Savior and everything changes after that!

    God bless!

    I haven't followed the posts you mentioned, but do you see any ideas here?

    “Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.

    He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary?

    but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.

    And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed upon the wall round about. And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.

    Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath forsaken the earth. He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.

    Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

    Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *8:5-13, 15-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    this sort of thing is spoken of often , God was promising to make Israel desolate because they continually did everything he said not to do. Finally the covenant was defiled...in Ezekiel the lords glory departs from the temple, and takes him to the highest place, like he does John in revelation, he sees the new Jerusalem also, and as Gods glory departs the temple , he goes up and watched his glory rest above the gate of the promised king, and someone like a man goes in the gate....I'm sure you know prophecy is clear about a descendant of Judah coming through the sealed gate, and only he the king was allowed to pass through that gate.

    desolation came to Israel, because of the rebellion and hard hearts which worshipped false gods, and in many ways became proud and did set them up as the rulers of things, never submitting tomGods word, is basically making yourself your own God like your saying. That's what they always did continually. Desolation to me comes when Gods glory departs thier temple, remember how harsh Jesus spoke to all the priests and Pharisees all the things he told them they were doing...he called them broods of vipers, sons of hell ect...


    just some thoughts there bro, good post , found the idea interesting and will consider it more

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