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Thread: The Grreat Commission warning

  1. #31
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is untrue, or at best misleading. To say someone is "saved by works" is a catch phrase used by Protestants against Catholics and other religions who separate Faith and Works. But I have *never* separated Faith and Works! And this doesn't take a book for me to explain that.

    On the other hand, if you, like ForHisglory, suggest that Faith can be divorced from Works, you will have to answer, like him, to what James said.

    James 2.26 faith without deeds is dead.
    This is hardly "unbiblical," brother! But you, like Luther, apparently have a problem with it?
    If you don't understand what James is saying in CONTEXT then this will cause a problem for you.
    I have no problem with the above statement as it is NOT saying that faith and deeds are the same. Nor is he saying that faith doesn't exist or is invalid without works. He is saying your faith is not expressed only in words, but also in deeds. Your walk must fit with your talk.

  2. #32
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is untrue, or at best misleading. To say someone is "saved by works" is a catch phrase used by Protestants against Catholics and other religions who separate Faith and Works. But I have *never* separated Faith and Works! And this doesn't take a book for me to explain that.

    On the other hand, if you, like ForHisglory, suggest that Faith can be divorced from Works, you will have to answer, like him, to what James said.

    James 2.26 faith without deeds is dead.

    This is hardly "unbiblical," brother! But you, like Luther, apparently have a problem with it?



    Sorry, Faith, and the Works of Faith, that predated Christ's atonement, were valid. And so, the Works that accompany Faith in that time period are as valid as Faith itself, because Faith requires Works.

    I've never said that Faith and Works before Christ can themselves achieve final atonement--only Christ can do that. But true Faith, which includes Works, are what attains to Christ's final atonement.

    For example, Abraham's Works in the OT era were acceptable before God, but did not accomplish final atonement, which only Christ could accomplish. But his faith did recognize and benefit from the atonement that Christ would accomplish.
    Your position was this - quote;

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    With you I was just explaining that repentance in Nineveh could indeed serve to lead to eternal life, once Christ had atoned for the sins of all men.
    Show me scripture for this.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Speak of your own "tree," brother! You may come from a "rotten tree," but I do not. I was created by the holy God, who only does good. Man was created in His image, and not to originate from a "rotten tree!"

    ...
    You obfuscate. Show me where I said man ORIGINATES from a rotten Tree. If you cannot, I would say your own words apply - quote;


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is your regular lie and sin, brother, indicating, falsely, ...
    Shall we leave it at this lest more folly proceeds from our mouths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I will not go into it, because you have heard it before and dome nothing, but I will name them for you.
    • It is a COMMAND. Entry into the kingdom AFTER rebirth is by OBEDIENCE. The Christian who cannot keep the first command of the Lord is not fit for the Kingdom (Matt.7:21)
    • It qualifies a Believer to enter the Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
    • It replaces Circumcision for the inheriting of the earth (Col.2:11-12)
    • It purges the conscience so that old transgression do not burden one's walk with God (1st Pet.3:21)
    • It puts the past behind us. All God's called-out ones were "flood-crossers" (Josh.24:2-3, 14; 1st Cor.10:1-11)
    • It joins the vile flesh in Christ's death so that God can deal with Christians as if they were relieved of the flesh (Rom.6:1-4)
    • It qualifies a Christian to be raised like Christ (Rom.6:5)

    Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but the day you start reading God's Words and letting them dictate your understanding, you will not have to walk in your own conflicting opinions. Your postings will then never again be void of scripture. Am I being pedantic? Let Psalm 138:2 answer. Does it not set an unfathomable value on God's Words?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism does not save you in the sense of removing pollution/sin from you! It is a public demonstration of the conscience, which alone can cleanse one in a ritual. Do I have to quote it for you?

    1 Peter 3.21 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    It does no good to simply quote Scriptures if you can't read them right! Here, Peter plainly says that the ritual act of baptism *does not save you!* The salvation aspect of ritual baptism involves the *conscience.* Baptism cannot save you because it's just *water!*

    But you think that somehow the water adds value to the conscience when in reality it was just an initiation ritual designed to publicly confess Jesus. As he said: "Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven." (Matt 10.32) It is not the act of baptism that saves, but rather, the act of confession. Baptism is purely a ritual utilized to make this public confession at the beginning of conversion.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    But you apparently want to empty the cross of Christ of its power? By pushing the ritual act of baptism as a means of salvation you are emptying the cross of its power! It is Christ himself who brings salvation, and not the waters of baptism! Baptism metaphorically saves us by representing, symbolically, what Christ is doing on the inside of us! It is our conscience that cleanses us--not material water!

    But if you want to go on insulting my position as "unbiblical," you would be wrong. You are just disagreeing with my interpretation.
    I will show your tactics. In the section I wrote I laid forth what Baptism does, with the corresponding scripture. The reader will notice the the word "SAVED" was NEVER used by me. You ANSWERED only ONE POINT of mine for which I had already given the scripture. But your answer is a TIRADE ALL ABOUT SALVATION - as if I had put forth some heresy on SALVATION. I made bold your every mention of salvation. I will let the other readers decide where this type of debating is from.

  3. #33
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If you don't understand what James is saying in CONTEXT then this will cause a problem for you.
    I have no problem with the above statement as it is NOT saying that faith and deeds are the same. Nor is he saying that faith doesn't exist or is invalid without works. He is saying your faith is not expressed only in words, but also in deeds. Your walk must fit with your talk.
    Baloney. It says what it says. Faith and Deeds/Works must *not* be uncoupled. They must be viewed *together.* The 1st Work that a Man must do is choose to accept God's word to his heart. In doing this he chooses to direct his faith in Christ as the source of true righteousness.

    This 1st work results in God pouring His righteousness into our heart so that our choices from then on become motivated by the love of Christ within us. From the initial choice to believe in Christ as the source of righteousness to future choices made with spirituality within we pursue Faith and Works in combination.

    To choose for Christ is to choose his works, and is itself our own 1st work accomplished in Christ. Accepting the word of Christ is making a choice in Christ. It is a Work of Faith! Thereafter we may do works of faith in Christ by reference to the Spirit of Christ within us.

  4. #34
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your position was this - quote;
    Show me scripture for this.
    What, you want proof that acts of repentance and faith were valid in the OT era? From Noah to Moses we have evidence that men of God chose to live by faith, and were accepted by God. Consider Heb 11 and the honor roll of the faithful.

    If your problem is you think non-Hebrews were excluded from acts of faith, consider Rahab and Ruth. Furthermore, non-Hebrews were allowed into Israel as proselytes. What more proof do you need?

    Rom 3.25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    When the Ninevites repented you can be sure that there were a remnant of those who actually demonstrated a love for God and for righteousness, rather than just go through the motions to avert certain judgment. Those who repented in faith were those whose sins were "passed over," or whose sins were "left unpunished." Their choice for righteousness was a choice for the same righteousness of God that came to be revealed in Christ, when he died on the cross and atoned for their sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    You obfuscate. Show me where I said man ORIGINATES from a rotten Tree. If you cannot, I would say your own words apply - quote;
    Shall we leave it at this lest more folly proceeds from our mouths.
    No, I will not let your "false witness" remain untreated. You have regularly accused me of making arguments without biblical support, and you need to stop that. The "folly" is all yours, brother. If you have not regularly accused me of failing to provide a biblical basis, please defend yourself?

    You place my claim that you "lie" next to a quote where I deny I'm from a "rotten tree." That is not what I was calling a "lie." This is a mismanagement of the argument, and you edit unfairly.

    What I called a "lie," and still call a "lie," is your claim that I don't use the Bible to buttress my arguments. I may not do it repetitively and unnecessarily, but within every argument is a biblical support. This is what we all do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I will show your tactics. In the section I wrote I laid forth what Baptism does, with the corresponding scripture. The reader will notice the the word "SAVED" was NEVER used by me. You ANSWERED only ONE POINT of mine for which I had already given the scripture. But your answer is a TIRADE ALL ABOUT SALVATION - as if I had put forth some heresy on SALVATION. I made bold your every mention of salvation. I will let the other readers decide where this type of debating is from.
    Absolutely, let the readers decide. As I said, Baptism doesn't save anybody, except as a ritual through which salvation is expressed symbolically. It is the confession of truth that saves, in response to Christ's word to our hearts. This alone is what saves us, when we agree with the resurrected Christ and in what his righteousness means to us for our salvation.

  5. #35

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The gospel of Christ is not given to spirits to preach - only men. Our Lord Jesus forbade the demons to tell Who He was. You see, both demons and angels, which are spirits, where around from the time of Adam and know Who Jesus is. They do not preach faith but sight. But the "Everlasting Gospel" is something else. And what it is is revealed in the verses you propose - Revelation 14:6-7;

    6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."


    This does not refer to Christ's Person and Work. It refers back to all men of all ages,
    18 "... who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
    (Romans 1:18-23).

    The issue of the Great Tribulation is a final act of IDOL WORSHIP. And it takes place in a Temple that should have been for God in Jerusalem. Revelation 13:14-15 tells;

    14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."


    By the way, when I am able to corner somebody long enough to preach the gospel, I usually start with this point. Do you think that 2 trillion galaxies with all their matter and energy and laws came out of nothing? Science teaches that something cannot come out of nothing. If so, there must be a Creator. And if so you are a Created Being and are owned by the Creator. And if you are owned by a Creator should you not inquire what He requires of you? That is, I start with the "everlasting gospel" to force the listener to consider God and His CREATURE. Then, if the listener has any honesty, I can change over to the "Good News" of fallen and discarded men REDEEMED for a purpose.
    Are you suggesting that the good news that Jesus is the Savior, come to save mankind from sin, has never been proclaimed by an angel to a human? Angels have provided this testimony before.

    Additionally, we know from Jesus' own words that it is not man alone that provides testimony about Him (and with this statement I am not referring to angels).

  6. #36
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baloney. It says what it says. Faith and Deeds/Works must *not* be uncoupled. They must be viewed *together.* The 1st Work that a Man must do is choose to accept God's word to his heart. In doing this he chooses to direct his faith in Christ as the source of true righteousness.

    This 1st work results in God pouring His righteousness into our heart so that our choices from then on become motivated by the love of Christ within us. From the initial choice to believe in Christ as the source of righteousness to future choices made with spirituality within we pursue Faith and Works in combination.

    To choose for Christ is to choose his works, and is itself our own 1st work accomplished in Christ. Accepting the word of Christ is making a choice in Christ. It is a Work of Faith! Thereafter we may do works of faith in Christ by reference to the Spirit of Christ within us.
    If you want to take a sentence OUT of CONTEXT, then you can make anything mean anything.
    Faith and works are connected, but it is baloney to say that accepting God's word to his heart is a Man's work.
    Paul makes that 100% clear:
    Gal 1:6* I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—*
    Gal 1:7* not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.*
    Gal 1:8* But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.*
    Gal 1:9* As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

    This is pretty strong language.
    Gal 3:2* Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?*
    Gal 3:3* Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?*
    Gal 3:4* Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?*
    Gal 3:5* Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—*
    Gal 3:6* just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?*
    Gal 3:7* Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.*

    The gospel is very clear, that it is neither by works that one is justified, nor by any works afterwards.
    Everything is by the Spirit through faith.

    This is NOT a work of Man, but by God so that we can NEVER boast:
    1Co 4:7* For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?*

    So I disagree with your view entirely. God does a work in us, even as Jesus said:
    Joh 6:29* Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”*

    We believe BECAUSE He has done a work in us.
    It is ONLY because of the work He does, which is our faith , we in response do a work.
    James did NOT put works on the same place as faith, rather he stated that works is the outcome of our faith, hence a faith which does nothing is a nothing faith.

  7. #37
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If you want to take a sentence OUT of CONTEXT, then you can make anything mean anything.
    Faith and works are connected, but it is baloney to say that accepting God's word to his heart is a Man's work.
    Paul makes that 100% clear:
    Gal 1:6* I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—*
    Gal 1:7* not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.*
    Gal 1:8* But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.*
    Gal 1:9* As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

    This is pretty strong language.
    Gal 3:2* Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?*
    Gal 3:3* Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?*
    Gal 3:4* Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?*
    Gal 3:5* Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—*
    Gal 3:6* just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?*
    Gal 3:7* Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.*

    The gospel is very clear, that it is neither by works that one is justified, nor by any works afterwards.
    Everything is by the Spirit through faith.

    This is NOT a work of Man, but by God so that we can NEVER boast:
    1Co 4:7* For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?*

    So I disagree with your view entirely. God does a work in us, even as Jesus said:
    Joh 6:29* Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”*

    We believe BECAUSE He has done a work in us.
    It is ONLY because of the work He does, which is our faith , we in response do a work.
    James did NOT put works on the same place as faith, rather he stated that works is the outcome of our faith, hence a faith which does nothing is a nothing faith.
    You bring up some good questions that I hope to investigate more thoroughly. I do believe receiving the Spirit is a Messianic promise, distinct from the blessings of obedience to the Law. So under the Law Israel obeyed God, and were compensated with blessings. This is not the same thing as obeying the Law and receiving the Spirit as compensation.

    So when we receive the Spirit in the NT era, it is the equivalent of having received the benefit of salvation, which is something that obedience to the Law never intended to receive as compensation.

    The giving of the Spirit is portrayed, prophetically, as a renewal, or as a work of God in healing and in restoring. And so, man never was given to expect the Spirit as a reward for work done for God.

    Is that to say that man has never worked for God, or has never received compensation for working for God? Not at all! Israel did work according to the Law, and benefited from it by receiving blessings. They just didn't receive the Spirit as a reward.

    When I say that Faith itself is a Work, I've never said that the benefit of this Work is the Spirit. Rather, the benefit of having Faith as a Work is in knowing the Faith is real, because it really produces the Works of Christ--not the atonement of Christ, but the Good Works of Christ.

    But to say we do Good Works without any human element involved is false. Our Christian Works are a partnership between human choice and divine virtue. We draw upon the spiritual resources of Christ when we choose to believe in Christ. We do not, however, receive salvation as if our Work is to atone for ourselves! Rather, our Work of Faith is designed only to appropriate the Works of Christ, including his atonement, so that Christ himself may be deposited in our heart, allowing us to continue doing good through him.

    Faith without Works means nothing. If our Works are the product of God operating in automotons, we are worthless, and our faith it meaningless.

  8. #38
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You would have pointed them to a log of salvation. Jonah cried AGAINST Nineveh and did not offer a log.
    A closer picture would be two people sitting in a room, and there is an electrical fault which is smouldering away. This will become a fire and they will be burnt to a crisp, you shout out "Fire! Your room is going to burn down"
    If they listen to you, they might then look and see the smouldering wire and so do something, or they may look around and not see any fire (for it is not visible to them) and so reject your words and so be caught out.
    By sending Jonah, God was telling them that they were about to be destroyed. It was then down to how they viewed Jonah (and by extension his God). Then they had to look at themselves and they had to come to the conclusion to repent.
    I don't think that your position is too different from Randy's. I concur that Jonah's commission was not to preach repentance. However, we can all agree that even in the pagan world (that Nineveh lived in at the time), when there is an omen and warning of imminent doom, the natural course was to seek expiation.

    I have no doubt that Nineveh recognised their need to come back from their wickedness and idolatrous life to avert destruction. And this could only happen because they believed Jonah and his God. IOW, while 'repentance' was not explicit in Jonah's message, it was yet undeniably inferred and welcomed by God when Nineveh repented. Look at it this way, if God did not wish to give them a chance to save themselves, why would he send Jonah in the first place?

    Apart from God revealing his intention to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham, I don't recall God sending someone to warn them in advance. So the fact God sent Jonah tells me he wanted them to repent - even though this was hidden from Jonah given his rage when God failed to destroy them.

  9. #39
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
    Are you suggesting that the good news that Jesus is the Savior, come to save mankind from sin, has never been proclaimed by an angel to a human? Angels have provided this testimony before.

    Additionally, we know from Jesus' own words that it is not man alone that provides testimony about Him (and with this statement I am not referring to angels).
    My appreciation of the Good News is in posting #2. This message of man recovered to His original position has never been proclaimed by angels. In Luke Chapter 2, "THE angel of the Lord" reported to shepherds that a Savior was born in Bethlehem. In the text of Luke 2:8-14, (i) "THE angel of the Lord" is different from the rest of "angels", (ii) the baby in swaddling is a "sign" - the opposite of faith, (iii) the "sign" indicates that the shepherds were Israelites (1st Cor.1:22), (iv) the "Savior" thus is Israel's Savior that Zacharias proclaimed just a few verses earlier at the end of Chapter 1, (v) the Savior is FIRST Israel's savior because David is mentioned, and then only to "all people", and (vi) most importantly our Lord's BIRTH is proclaimed NOT His death and resurrection.

    One might force the theory that angels preach the gospel, but the sum of the text does not support this and astute student of the Bible does not formulate doctrine on a single mention of anything (Matt.18:16; 2nd Cor.13:1).

  10. #40

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My appreciation of the Good News is in posting #2. This message of man recovered to His original position has never been proclaimed by angels. In Luke Chapter 2, "THE angel of the Lord" reported to shepherds that a Savior was born in Bethlehem. In the text of Luke 2:8-14, (i) "THE angel of the Lord" is different from the rest of "angels", (ii) the baby in swaddling is a "sign" - the opposite of faith, (iii) the "sign" indicates that the shepherds were Israelites (1st Cor.1:22), (iv) the "Savior" thus is Israel's Savior that Zacharias proclaimed just a few verses earlier at the end of Chapter 1, (v) the Savior is FIRST Israel's savior because David is mentioned, and then only to "all people", and (vi) most importantly our Lord's BIRTH is proclaimed NOT His death and resurrection.

    One might force the theory that angels preach the gospel, but the sum of the text does not support this and astute student of the Bible does not formulate doctrine on a single mention of anything (Matt.18:16; 2nd Cor.13:1).
    I get it. You disagree.

    In your first reply you mentioned from one passage that Jesus instructed fallen angels not to tell who He was. Then you applied ut to all angelic beings, from one passage.

    And as for forcing something in, I wasn't actually forcing anything, merely suggesting a possibility. An astute student should know the difference. Not going to derail the thread with further discussion on this with you.

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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think that your position is too different from Randy's. I concur that Jonah's commission was not to preach repentance. However, we can all agree that even in the pagan world (that Nineveh lived in at the time), when there is an omen and warning of imminent doom, the natural course was to seek expiation.

    I have no doubt that Nineveh recognised their need to come back from their wickedness and idolatrous life to avert destruction. And this could only happen because they believed Jonah and his God. IOW, while 'repentance' was not explicit in Jonah's message, it was yet undeniably inferred and welcomed by God when Nineveh repented. Look at it this way, if God did not wish to give them a chance to save themselves, why would he send Jonah in the first place?

    Apart from God revealing his intention to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham, I don't recall God sending someone to warn them in advance. So the fact God sent Jonah tells me he wanted them to repent - even though this was hidden from Jonah given his rage when God failed to destroy them.
    Matt 12.41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.

    Your "money statement" above is this: "Look at it this way, if God did not wish to give them a chance to save themselves, why would he send Jonah in the first place?"

    Though the message was *judgment* God's *intention* was to bring Nineveh to repentance, and to thus save a very large number of people. The message of judgment was not fore mostly to destroy--it was to save.

    So it's a matter of semantics to say this message was only about judgment, and not a "message of repentance." That's juvenile, in my view, unless this is recognized.

    As I said before, to God it was a message of repentance. To Jonah, it was a message of judgment, although he suspected it was a message of repentance as well.

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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think that your position is too different from Randy's. I concur that Jonah's commission was not to preach repentance. However, we can all agree that even in the pagan world (that Nineveh lived in at the time), when there is an omen and warning of imminent doom, the natural course was to seek expiation.

    I have no doubt that Nineveh recognised their need to come back from their wickedness and idolatrous life to avert destruction. And this could only happen because they believed Jonah and his God. IOW, while 'repentance' was not explicit in Jonah's message, it was yet undeniably inferred and welcomed by God when Nineveh repented. Look at it this way, if God did not wish to give them a chance to save themselves, why would he send Jonah in the first place?

    Apart from God revealing his intention to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham, I don't recall God sending someone to warn them in advance. So the fact God sent Jonah tells me he wanted them to repent - even though this was hidden from Jonah given his rage when God failed to destroy them.
    I agree that I am often not that far from randyk's view.
    However there was an implication from the start of this thread, which I thought needed a correction.

    The natural course though is not necessarily expiation but avoidance. To this end some bury their heads in the sand, some procrastinate and others blame the messenger.
    God wants everyone to repent, but He doesn't necessarily make it easy, but rather wants it from the heart.

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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You bring up some good questions that I hope to investigate more thoroughly. I do believe receiving the Spirit is a Messianic promise, distinct from the blessings of obedience to the Law. So under the Law Israel obeyed God, and were compensated with blessings. This is not the same thing as obeying the Law and receiving the Spirit as compensation.

    So when we receive the Spirit in the NT era, it is the equivalent of having received the benefit of salvation, which is something that obedience to the Law never intended to receive as compensation.

    The giving of the Spirit is portrayed, prophetically, as a renewal, or as a work of God in healing and in restoring. And so, man never was given to expect the Spirit as a reward for work done for God.

    Is that to say that man has never worked for God, or has never received compensation for working for God? Not at all! Israel did work according to the Law, and benefited from it by receiving blessings. They just didn't receive the Spirit as a reward.

    When I say that Faith itself is a Work, I've never said that the benefit of this Work is the Spirit. Rather, the benefit of having Faith as a Work is in knowing the Faith is real, because it really produces the Works of Christ--not the atonement of Christ, but the Good Works of Christ.

    But to say we do Good Works without any human element involved is false. Our Christian Works are a partnership between human choice and divine virtue. We draw upon the spiritual resources of Christ when we choose to believe in Christ. We do not, however, receive salvation as if our Work is to atone for ourselves! Rather, our Work of Faith is designed only to appropriate the Works of Christ, including his atonement, so that Christ himself may be deposited in our heart, allowing us to continue doing good through him.

    Faith without Works means nothing. If our Works are the product of God operating in automotons, we are worthless, and our faith it meaningless.
    Works, by definition requires action.
    We have a privilege to join God in the work He is doing.
    Our Good Works are then by definition a work of God that we do with Him and for Him.

    The process is God, us, God, us, God, us.
    he does a work in us and we respond in faith, which leads His Spirit to spring up in us, which leads us to actions.
    There is an interplay INITIATED by Him, and to which we respond, and our response (work) SHOWS/DEMONSTRATES the Faith we have in us.

  14. #44
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    ….We believe BECAUSE He has done a work in us.
    It is ONLY because of the work He does, which is our faith , we in response do a work.
    James did NOT put works on the same place as faith, rather he stated that works is the outcome of our faith, hence a faith which does nothing is a nothing faith.
    My brother sent me a verse on this today because we have been discussing the same. He doesn't necessarily agree that Faith is a Work, though he does, of course, acknowledge that Jesus referred to our belief in him as a "Work of God." In my defense he offered this verse:

    Acts 26.20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

    It does appear that faith in Christ must be demonstrated by *deeds,* as even James said. "Faith without deeds is dead."

    Your concern seems to be to say that Faith itself comes from God, and not from Man, and as such is a "Work of God?" If so, I at least partly agree, because I do think Faith originates from God's own Word, and not from ourselves. However, the exercise of Faith comes from Man, and not from God.

    And so, Faith is a Work of God in the sense that it originates from God. But it also includes the Work of Man in the sense that we must choose to believe in Christ. And in believing in Christ we are also choosing to live by him, to produce deeds that are the product of his virtue and our obedience.

    True Faith *must* produce deeds. Faith, in order to save, must take hold of God's word, but it must also contain deeds. In acknowledging God as the source of virtue, a Man embraces the works of Christ as the basis of human virtue, and in effect choose to produce Christian works. Unless this is so, he has not demonstrated Faith that saves.

    So I'm not sure we are in total disagreement? Works do follow Faith to show that it is saving faith that we are exercising. The works that we do validate our faith, and show that it is true Faith. Believing that Christ is the source of true virtue we are in effect choosing to produce Christ's works in our own life.

    To acknowledge that Christ is true virtue, and then to not reproduce them in our lives, is not genuine faith. It is not a true acknowledgment of God's word as a fitting implant in our lives. I really don't know how better to say this? Faith says, but it *must* involve works! Works validate our faith.

  15. #45
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    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Correction: "Faith *saves,* but it *must* involve works! Works validate our faith.

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