Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 46 to 56 of 56

Thread: The Grreat Commission warning

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,240
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree that I am often not that far from randyk's view.
    However there was an implication from the start of this thread, which I thought needed a correction.

    The natural course though is not necessarily expiation but avoidance. To this end some bury their heads in the sand, some procrastinate and others blame the messenger.
    God wants everyone to repent, but He doesn't necessarily make it easy, but rather wants it from the heart.
    Repentance, of course, is in the heart. When a call is made for a national revival and repentance, no one believes that 100% of the citizens will adhere to it in sincerity. Ancient Israel is no different.

    I don't follow your reasoning - you said that to prevent the imminent judgment, expiation is not necessary but avoidance? I'm wondering how that can be? There is no other way to avoid God's judgment than to repent and atone by way of renouncing wickedness, etc. Throughout the Bible, after warning Israel to repent, they were further told to "lose the bands of wickedness, let the oppressed go free, break every yoke of pervasion, etc."

    You will recall God's discourse with Abraham - where God told Abraham that he will spare Sodom and Gomorrah if he can find as little as ten righteous men in the city? God is ever merciful and doesn't need the whole city to repent to stay his hand of judgment - a handful will do just fine. I believe that the genuine repentance of a few people in Nineveh saved the whole city.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,154

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
    I get it. You disagree.

    In your first reply you mentioned from one passage that Jesus instructed fallen angels not to tell who He was. Then you applied ut to all angelic beings, from one passage.

    And as for forcing something in, I wasn't actually forcing anything, merely suggesting a possibility. An astute student should know the difference. Not going to derail the thread with further discussion on this with you.
    You asked if I was "suggesting" something. To make matters clear I gave my understanding. How could it disagree with nothing? And in the common use of English "one" is a gender-neutral, third-person singular pronoun. The use of "one" makes it impersonal and general. How could you feel addressed as to "forcing" something? Or maybe you did feel addressed.

    I agree though that such a matter should not derail the thread. But lies in the theme of the Great Commission, and I thought that an explanation of Revelation 14:6 was appropriate. Just for information I based my understanding of the gospel being taught by spirits on;
    Mark 1:34 — "And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many demons; and suffered not the demons to speak, because they knew him."
    Mark 3:11-12 — "And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known."
    Luke 4:41 — "And demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ."
    Acts 16:17 — "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

    Perhaps Psalm 50:16 makes for a reason; "But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?"

    It seems to me that the Gospel is given to men of faith to reach other men who will exercise faith. The angels and demons have been around since God's promise of the "Seed of the Woman", and have watched God's sovereignty unfold for 4,000 years, and KNEW who Christ was, and mean ill to men. No faith is necessary for them, no redemption applies to them and wishing men evil they are thus forbidden to preach Who Christ is. They are "familiar spirits" knowing the past and so are banned from an issue of faith.

    But I'm open to any proofs to the contrary. A man never stops learning.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,657

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree that I am often not that far from randyk's view.
    However there was an implication from the start of this thread, which I thought needed a correction.

    The natural course though is not necessarily expiation but avoidance. To this end some bury their heads in the sand, some procrastinate and others blame the messenger.
    God wants everyone to repent, but He doesn't necessarily make it easy, but rather wants it from the heart.
    I don't disagree with this entirely, and it's a good point, if I understand you correctly. The message of judgment is preeminent precisely because most people do not completely repent from the heart. God seems to accept a minimum of effort to save them from destruction, for the purpose of preserving those who do fully repent from the heart. It is also to give people a chance to start in the right direction, whether they persevere or not.

    We know that Nineveh ultimately did experience the predicted judgment, which indicates that many did *not* fully repent from the heart, even if they made a minimal effort to begin in the right direction. The idea, however, is to give people a chance to *start* in the right direction, and not just judge them as sincere or not.

    The question of "saving faith" would take us in a different direction entirely, and I'll leave that for elsewhere.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My brother sent me a verse on this today because we have been discussing the same. He doesn't necessarily agree that Faith is a Work, though he does, of course, acknowledge that Jesus referred to our belief in him as a "Work of God." In my defense he offered this verse:

    Acts 26.20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

    It does appear that faith in Christ must be demonstrated by *deeds,* as even James said. "Faith without deeds is dead."

    Your concern seems to be to say that Faith itself comes from God, and not from Man, and as such is a "Work of God?" If so, I at least partly agree, because I do think Faith originates from God's own Word, and not from ourselves. However, the exercise of Faith comes from Man, and not from God.

    And so, Faith is a Work of God in the sense that it originates from God. But it also includes the Work of Man in the sense that we must choose to believe in Christ. And in believing in Christ we are also choosing to live by him, to produce deeds that are the product of his virtue and our obedience.

    True Faith *must* produce deeds. Faith, in order to save, must take hold of God's word, but it must also contain deeds. In acknowledging God as the source of virtue, a Man embraces the works of Christ as the basis of human virtue, and in effect choose to produce Christian works. Unless this is so, he has not demonstrated Faith that saves.

    So I'm not sure we are in total disagreement? Works do follow Faith to show that it is saving faith that we are exercising. The works that we do validate our faith, and show that it is true Faith. Believing that Christ is the source of true virtue we are in effect choosing to produce Christ's works in our own life.

    To acknowledge that Christ is true virtue, and then to not reproduce them in our lives, is not genuine faith. It is not a true acknowledgment of God's word as a fitting implant in our lives. I really don't know how better to say this? Faith says, but it *must* involve works! Works validate our faith.
    No Faith is NOT a work of Man. We do a WORK based on our Faith.
    As your brother's text states we DEMONSTRATE our Faith (or repentance) by our deeds.
    Choosing to believe or not believe is not a work.
    James highlighted that words and things we say are NOT real faith, it is the WORK we do which shows the real faith we have. The work does NOT make our faith real, but SHOWS/DEMONSTRATES the reality of our faith.
    Faith to save does NOT require a SINGLE work of man, for then Man could boast, for which we have no boast - it is a FREE gift of God.
    Faith however which is living, lives through works.

    One way to think of this, is that a Man and a Woman comes together and she conceives a baby. The baby grows in her and then is born. The new life and the birth are NOT a work of the baby.
    When the baby is born though it must take its first breath. Our works is like breath is for the baby. Without breath the baby will die, so without works our faith also will (I think) die.
    They are NOT the same thing, and Faith ALWAYS comes first, but works is our faith in action, and actually should build our faith - the life which is in us.

    I hope you get the analogy, and see how closely I agree with you, but also what I think makes our comparative positions different.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Repentance, of course, is in the heart. When a call is made for a national revival and repentance, no one believes that 100% of the citizens will adhere to it in sincerity. Ancient Israel is no different.

    I don't follow your reasoning - you said that to prevent the imminent judgment, expiation is not necessary but avoidance? I'm wondering how that can be? There is no other way to avoid God's judgment than to repent and atone by way of renouncing wickedness, etc. Throughout the Bible, after warning Israel to repent, they were further told to "lose the bands of wickedness, let the oppressed go free, break every yoke of pervasion, etc."

    You will recall God's discourse with Abraham - where God told Abraham that he will spare Sodom and Gomorrah if he can find as little as ten righteous men in the city? God is ever merciful and doesn't need the whole city to repent to stay his hand of judgment - a handful will do just fine. I believe that the genuine repentance of a few people in Nineveh saved the whole city.
    I didn't say expiation is NOT necessary. I said that many will NOT choose expiation, but rather avoidance.
    We see this clearly in Genesis 3.
    The Man blames the Woman, the Woman blames the serpent, but none repent.
    I also see there was genuine repentance.
    Sometimes it is NOT necessary to preach repentance, ONLY judgement. Sometimes people KNOW about the judgement and it is necessary to preach repentance, and some need to hear about forgiveness as they see that what they have done is seemingly beyond forgiveness.
    In the Gospel we have ALL 3, with Jonah we have just one.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    8,240
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I didn't say expiation is NOT necessary. I said that many will NOT choose expiation, but rather avoidance.
    We see this clearly in Genesis 3.
    The Man blames the Woman, the Woman blames the serpent, but none repent.
    I also see there was genuine repentance.
    Sometimes it is NOT necessary to preach repentance, ONLY judgement. Sometimes people KNOW about the judgement and it is necessary to preach repentance, and some need to hear about forgiveness as they see that what they have done is seemingly beyond forgiveness.
    In the Gospel we have ALL 3, with Jonah we have just one.
    You are absolutely right.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are absolutely right.
    I knew agreement had to happen at some point!

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,657

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No Faith is NOT a work of Man.
    Your definition of "work" has to do with atonement, and not deeds that men do. We are talking about human *deeds!*

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    We do a WORK based on our Faith.
    As your brother's text states we DEMONSTRATE our Faith (or repentance) by our deeds.
    Choosing to believe or not believe is not a work.
    Jesus said it was. I choose to believe him, and not you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    James highlighted that words and things we say are NOT real faith, it is the WORK we do which shows the real faith we have. The work does NOT make our faith real, but SHOWS/DEMONSTRATES the reality of our faith.
    Yes, works demonstrates our faith. But faith itself, to save, must include those works. Without deeds faith is dead. Faith cannot save, if it is dead. Living faith has works. And faith is the product of human belief in God's word. It is a *human choice,* and not strictly God directing us to believe, as if we are automatons.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Faith to save does NOT require a SINGLE work of man, for then Man could boast, for which we have no boast - it is a FREE gift of God.
    Faith however which is living, lives through works.
    Paul did not say men couldn't boast. He only said they couldn't boast *before God.* Paul himself boasted, but not before God. How else could Paul boast unless he had done something right?

    And so, we must do things that are right to prove that our faith was right. And the faith we have is the product of human choice and divine revelation. It requires both, and not just one. True faith involves human choice, as does the production of human works. They all require the human element. But true faith draws upon the word of God, as do the deeds we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    One way to think of this, is that a Man and a Woman comes together and she conceives a baby. The baby grows in her and then is born. The new life and the birth are NOT a work of the baby.
    When the baby is born though it must take its first breath. Our works is like breath is for the baby. Without breath the baby will die, so without works our faith also will (I think) die.
    They are NOT the same thing, and Faith ALWAYS comes first, but works is our faith in action, and actually should build our faith - the life which is in us.
    The baby doesn't have faith. The adult does.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I hope you get the analogy, and see how closely I agree with you, but also what I think makes our comparative positions different.
    I see the human element combined with the divine element joined to produce both faith and deeds. They both accomplish the same thing. You somehow see them as separate, probably because of Paul's extensive theology about works being empty without faith.

    And while it's true that works can be separate from faith, we cannot have saving faith without works. We aren't here talking about the kind of works that earn salvation. This was the work of atonement that only Christ could accomplish.

    But after he accomplished that he gave us his spiritual life as a source of power to live a redeemed life, doing works that merit eternal value. True faith produces these kinds of works. Without them, we don't have true faith.

    We may be close, but perhaps not close enough?

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Your definition of "work" has to do with atonement, and not deeds that men do. We are talking about human *deeds!*
    No, my definition of work, is what the WORD means. A work is something you DO, and ACTION.

    Jesus said it was. I choose to believe him, and not you.
    Nope, Jesus did NOT say it, and so I go with what Jesus ACTUALLY said, and not you.

    The baby doesn't have faith. The adult does.
    As you don't get the picture I was painting in the example I guess I am not sure what can.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,657

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, my definition of work, is what the WORD means. A work is something you DO, and ACTION.


    Nope, Jesus did NOT say it, and so I go with what Jesus ACTUALLY said, and not you.


    As you don't get the picture I was painting in the example I guess I am not sure what can.
    ditto, I'm not sure I can argue with you when you say Jesus didn't mean what he said? Jesus said the work of God is to believe in His Son. That means just what it says. If we are to be doing the work of God, we must believe. It is not just *God* who does the believing!

    And James said that without deeds, or without works, faith is dead. You deny this means what it says. Therefore, we are done here.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10,001
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The Grreat Commission warning

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    ditto, I'm not sure I can argue with you when you say Jesus didn't mean what he said? Jesus said the work of God is to believe in His Son. That means just what it says. If we are to be doing the work of God, we must believe. It is not just *God* who does the believing!
    No you are NOT understanding what He said.
    Jesus did NOT say OUR work is for us to believe in His Son. Jesus said "the work of GOD is to believe in His Son." This is a work that God does IN us.
    You twist it backwards and make it a work that we do, but Jesus says, this is a work God does in us.

    And James said that without deeds, or without works, faith is dead. You deny this means what it says. Therefore, we are done here.
    And here I have NOT denied what he has written. I have explained what James is saying in CONTEXT.
    Faith COMPLETELY exists without works. It is NOT a requirement of faith to have works. What works does is SHOW the faith we have, which is what James ENTIRE argument is.
    Instead you twist it and make works EQUIVALENT to faith, and that without works you have no faith.
    IOW you try to make James say something CONTRARY to what Paul noted, when they are in AGREEMENT.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Great Commission
    By Pbminimum in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 189
    Last Post: Jul 10th 2017, 03:25 PM
  2. Blog on Great Commission in Local Languages(How)
    By thespiritoftruth7 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Sep 28th 2015, 11:32 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Feb 23rd 2015, 01:23 AM
  4. The Great Commission and today
    By RollTide21 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: Nov 2nd 2011, 10:26 PM
  5. The Great Commission!
    By embankmentlb in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: Apr 9th 2009, 11:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •