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Thread: Jesus is the Israel of God

  1. #16
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    All you have said is correct. So I will only address your conclusion (in bold). Can you give an example in the bible where somebody usurped this Name Israel? In general criminology a name can be stolen. This is for the purpose of gaining the benefits attached to that name. Since God "knows who are His", can this happen to a person calling them self an Israelite? In the case of Israel, few have usurped this name. Rather Israel is HATED. FEW, if ANY, would usurp this name. And besides which, God, who watches and knows everything, will simply ignore you.

    But moving on t the next section, you introduce a scripture that has nothing to do with usurping a name. You introduce a prophecy by Moses that God would raise up his REPLACEMENT and that the things that Jesus would say would be DIFFERENT to what he, Moses, said. And so they were. The so-called Sermon on the Mount presents severe changes to the Law of Moses. What has this to do with Name Stealing?
    My point is that those people who founded a nation in 1948, were a mixed race people with communistic principals, who have a religion that is derived from the Talmud not the Bible, have no right to the name of Israel. They have usurped that name and it has paid off very handsomely for them, as many- in fact the bulk of Christians have been suckered into believing they are the continuation of ancient Israel and have given them much support.
    This support is made not so much from altruistic motives, as from the idea that it will be them who will fact the Great Tribulation, while the Christians will sit in heaven.
    This doctrine, the indispensable tenet of the 'rapture' theory, is unbiblical and contradicts what the Prophetic Word does actually tells us will happen.

    Quote Walls, in #14:
    Those who believe and enter all the privileges that goes with FAITH - the Church
    Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS with God - Israel
    Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have NO legal arrangements with God - the Nations

    As you can see there are basically TWO GROUPS - BELIEVERS and those who DON'T BELIEVE. But in the group who DON'T BELIEVE there is a subdivision - making a total of THREE - each with a different destiny. Quote.

    Your belief that the Israel of today has any 'inside track' with God, is quite wrong and is diametrically opposed to what we are told in the Bible.
    There are only 2 groups of humans in God's sight:
    1/ Those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, Jew and Gentile.
    2/ Those who reject Jesus and go their own way, Jew and Gentile.

    Ephesians 2:11-18 makes this truth perfectly clear.

  2. #17
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    My point is that those people who founded a nation in 1948, were a mixed race people with communistic principals, who have a religion that is derived from the Talmud not the Bible, have no right to the name of Israel. They have usurped that name and it has paid off very handsomely for them, as many- in fact the bulk of Christians have been suckered into believing they are the continuation of ancient Israel and have given them much support.
    This support is made not so much from altruistic motives, as from the idea that it will be them who will fact the Great Tribulation, while the Christians will sit in heaven.
    This doctrine, the indispensable tenet of the 'rapture' theory, is unbiblical and contradicts what the Prophetic Word does actually tells us will happen.

    Quote Walls, in #14:
    Those who believe and enter all the privileges that goes with FAITH - the Church
    Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS with God - Israel
    Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have NO legal arrangements with God - the Nations

    As you can see there are basically TWO GROUPS - BELIEVERS and those who DON'T BELIEVE. But in the group who DON'T BELIEVE there is a subdivision - making a total of THREE - each with a different destiny. Quote.

    Your belief that the Israel of today has any 'inside track' with God, is quite wrong and is diametrically opposed to what we are told in the Bible.
    There are only 2 groups of humans in God's sight:
    1/ Those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, Jew and Gentile.
    2/ Those who reject Jesus and go their own way, Jew and Gentile.

    Ephesians 2:11-18 makes this truth perfectly clear.
    At the end of each doctrine that denies God's Covenant, the LEGAL ARRANGEMENT, with Israel, is a deep insult to Jehovah.

    Jacob produces offspring and scriptures says in Genesis 28:13 with Jacob at Bethel, "And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed."

    But from Genesis 48:3-4 at Jacob's death bed in Egypt we learn;

    3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
    4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession."


    So Jacob did not get the Land of Canaan in his lifetime, but we can still hope against hope for Jacob's seed. But FOUR generations live in Egypt. Three of these generations die in Egypt as slaves, and of the FOURTH all the fighting men over 20 years of age die in the wilderness - about 600,000 men.

    Then, in about 740 BC Assyria started deporting Israelites and they had offspring who never occupied the Land of Canaan to this day - about 2,700 years of Jacob's seed.

    Then about 590 BC Babylon started deporting Israelites of which came seed during the captivity. 97% of these Jews never returned to Canaan but continued to have children.

    The 3% that returned to Canaan produced offspring who were either killed or deported in 70 AD. After nearly 1,900 years SOME of then returned and Israel as a State was recognized in 1948 AD. But over half of ALL Jews who are living today do not live there.

    Now, even a preschooler, if asked if Jacobs offspring ALL possessed Canaan for an "everlasting possession", would say NO. Nor do I think you would say so. So what do you think of Jehovah's ability if He promised Jacob something that never came to pass - EVER - to this day? You have answered in the above posting, and maintained this in other postings. Your answer is that God will NOT keep this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT. This is your appreciation of the Almighty who made this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT WITH AN OATH.

    Next, because you state that ALL depends on acceptance of Jesus, you overthrow a blood-covenant with Jehovah wherein the CONDITION for obtaining this Land of Canaan was NOT ACCEPTANCE of JESUS BUT CIRCUMCISION. You take upon yourself to CHANGE the conditions of this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT that the Almighty has already approved.

    If you have acted in ignorance I'm sure Jehovah will overlook these deep insults. But now you are in the picture. If you still maintain your statements and stance, I would not like to be in your shoes when you have to give answer for stating in writing, in full knowledge, that;
    • God does not keep His Covenants
    • God allows mere men to change the conditions of His Covenants
    • God allows a New Zealander to change His Covenant with Israelites
    • God is unable to keep His Covenants and must annul them

    God has LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS with the physical seed of Jacob IRRESPECTIVE of their belief in Jesus. And if so, then among unbelievers there is Israel with which God has a number of LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS, and there are the Nations, with which God only has one arrangement - that made with ALL FLESH (Gen.9:17). Not ONE of these legal arrangements require belief in Jesus.

  3. #18
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    At the end of each doctrine that denies God's Covenant, the LEGAL ARRANGEMENT, with Israel, is a deep insult to Jehovah.

    Jacob produces offspring and scriptures says in Genesis 28:13 with Jacob at Bethel, "And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed."

    But from Genesis 48:3-4 at Jacob's death bed in Egypt we learn;

    3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
    4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession."


    So Jacob did not get the Land of Canaan in his lifetime, but we can still hope against hope for Jacob's seed. But FOUR generations live in Egypt. Three of these generations die in Egypt as slaves, and of the FOURTH all the fighting men over 20 years of age die in the wilderness - about 600,000 men.

    Then, in about 740 BC Assyria started deporting Israelites and they had offspring who never occupied the Land of Canaan to this day - about 2,700 years of Jacob's seed.

    Then about 590 BC Babylon started deporting Israelites of which came seed during the captivity. 97% of these Jews never returned to Canaan but continued to have children.

    The 3% that returned to Canaan produced offspring who were either killed or deported in 70 AD. After nearly 1,900 years SOME of then returned and Israel as a State was recognized in 1948 AD. But over half of ALL Jews who are living today do not live there.

    Now, even a preschooler, if asked if Jacobs offspring ALL possessed Canaan for an "everlasting possession", would say NO. Nor do I think you would say so. So what do you think of Jehovah's ability if He promised Jacob something that never came to pass - EVER - to this day? You have answered in the above posting, and maintained this in other postings. Your answer is that God will NOT keep this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT. This is your appreciation of the Almighty who made this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT WITH AN OATH.

    Next, because you state that ALL depends on acceptance of Jesus, you overthrow a blood-covenant with Jehovah wherein the CONDITION for obtaining this Land of Canaan was NOT ACCEPTANCE of JESUS BUT CIRCUMCISION. You take upon yourself to CHANGE the conditions of this LEGAL ARRANGEMENT that the Almighty has already approved.

    If you have acted in ignorance I'm sure Jehovah will overlook these deep insults. But now you are in the picture. If you still maintain your statements and stance, I would not like to be in your shoes when you have to give answer for stating in writing, in full knowledge, that;
    • God does not keep His Covenants
    • God allows mere men to change the conditions of His Covenants
    • God allows a New Zealander to change His Covenant with Israelites
    • God is unable to keep His Covenants and must annul them

    God has LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS with the physical seed of Jacob IRRESPECTIVE of their belief in Jesus. And if so, then among unbelievers there is Israel with which God has a number of LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS, and there are the Nations, with which God only has one arrangement - that made with ALL FLESH (Gen.9:17). Not ONE of these legal arrangements require belief in Jesus.
    God does keep His Covenants. The one with Abraham, is to his 'seed', who is Jesus and we who follow Jesus are the inheritors of that Covenant.

    You bring up the issue of circumcision:
    Take a look at who Paul said the true Israelites were:
    Romans 2:28-29 He is not a Jew, [a member of the Israel of God] who is one outwardly; because of circumcision, which is displayed in the flesh: but he is an Israelite whose circumcision is of the hear, in the Spirit and not in the letter [or outward purported lineage], whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Speaking to the New Covenant church, Colossians 2:11 he said, You are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.

    Christians are now the chosen and blessed Israelites, one people: the nation, from every nation and language, who have faith in God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:43

    Paul received his understanding in all this by revelation from God, His secret purpose made known: Ephesians 3:1-6, Galatians 1:12.
    Paul says: You, brethren should not be ignorant of this mystery. Romans 11:25

    How often have people been asked to pray for the peace of Israel & Jerusalem? How often have you heard the contradiction of Jesus’ offer of universal salvation; that you, even though you are a Christian, are a Gentile and that the ethnic Jew is still the chosen of God? This false teaching is promoted by those who believe in a rapture to heaven of the Church, while ethnic Israel remains to undergo purification on earth. This pretentious idea is not supported by scripture.
    Zechariah 12:1-14 describes the scene at the Return of Jesus, where a remnant of Judah will finally find their strength in the Lord and mourn for Him that they pierced.

    The New Testament is all about God making a Way for a nation of Spiritual Israelites; Christians that would bring forth fruit consistent with their faithfulness and trust in God. Galatians 5:22-25 A fruitful people of God. Matthew 21:43

    Many of the prophets had said that if Judah rejected God and the One He sent to them, she would be pulled up by the roots and so she was: Luke 21:20-24, in 70 AD and will be again in the near future: Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 22:14

    Jesus is declared to be the new tree of life and "the branches" consist of a newly chosen people, called from every nation, John 15:1-17, to form the Christian Israel of God! Galatians 6:14-16 Ethnic Israelis are "natural branches" and have been broken off the ‘Olive Tree’, that Jesus is the root and sustainer of. Only be becoming Christian, can they be reattached to the tree of Life.

    The Christian church is the circumcision. Circumcision; the Marked and set aside ones, also known as Nazarenes.
    Paul said to the gentile church: Brethren: We are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11
    Ephesians 2:11-18 also contrasts the saved and the unsaved, Christian believers and every other non-Christian person in the world.

    I will stand before God at the GWTJudgment, in the confidence of one who has promoted His Word to the best of my ability.

  4. #19
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Correction:
    Romans 2:29.....whose circumcision is of the heart.....

  5. #20
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    God does keep His Covenants. The one with Abraham, is to his 'seed', who is Jesus and we who follow Jesus are the inheritors of that Covenant.

    You bring up the issue of circumcision:
    Take a look at who Paul said the true Israelites were:
    Romans 2:28-29 He is not a Jew, [a member of the Israel of God] who is one outwardly; because of circumcision, which is displayed in the flesh: but he is an Israelite whose circumcision is of the hear, in the Spirit and not in the letter [or outward purported lineage], whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Speaking to the New Covenant church, Colossians 2:11 he said, You are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.

    Christians are now the chosen and blessed Israelites, one people: the nation, from every nation and language, who have faith in God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:43

    Paul received his understanding in all this by revelation from God, His secret purpose made known: Ephesians 3:1-6, Galatians 1:12.
    Paul says: You, brethren should not be ignorant of this mystery. Romans 11:25

    How often have people been asked to pray for the peace of Israel & Jerusalem? How often have you heard the contradiction of Jesus’ offer of universal salvation; that you, even though you are a Christian, are a Gentile and that the ethnic Jew is still the chosen of God? This false teaching is promoted by those who believe in a rapture to heaven of the Church, while ethnic Israel remains to undergo purification on earth. This pretentious idea is not supported by scripture.
    Zechariah 12:1-14 describes the scene at the Return of Jesus, where a remnant of Judah will finally find their strength in the Lord and mourn for Him that they pierced.

    The New Testament is all about God making a Way for a nation of Spiritual Israelites; Christians that would bring forth fruit consistent with their faithfulness and trust in God. Galatians 5:22-25 A fruitful people of God. Matthew 21:43

    Many of the prophets had said that if Judah rejected God and the One He sent to them, she would be pulled up by the roots and so she was: Luke 21:20-24, in 70 AD and will be again in the near future: Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 22:14

    Jesus is declared to be the new tree of life and "the branches" consist of a newly chosen people, called from every nation, John 15:1-17, to form the Christian Israel of God! Galatians 6:14-16 Ethnic Israelis are "natural branches" and have been broken off the ‘Olive Tree’, that Jesus is the root and sustainer of. Only be becoming Christian, can they be reattached to the tree of Life.

    The Christian church is the circumcision. Circumcision; the Marked and set aside ones, also known as Nazarenes.
    Paul said to the gentile church: Brethren: We are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11
    Ephesians 2:11-18 also contrasts the saved and the unsaved, Christian believers and every other non-Christian person in the world.

    I will stand before God at the GWTJudgment, in the confidence of one who has promoted His Word to the best of my ability.
    Yes. If that is truly what you believe, then you must stand for it in confidence. I personally will not be judged at the White Throne. I will be judged at the "Bema" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). I am NOT an Israelite since this category does not exist in the New Man which is IN Christ (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). I am not a "Spiritual Israelite" because such a category is NEVER found in the whole Bible. It is a man-made term which contradicts. Israelites are the seed of Israel, Jacobs's new name. I am born of the Holy Spirit. My "fathers" did not come out of Egypt. My Father is Jehovah. I was born, "... not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

  6. #21
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. If that is truly what you believe, then you must stand for it in confidence. I personally will not be judged at the White Throne. I will be judged at the "Bema" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). I am NOT an Israelite since this category does not exist in the New Man which is IN Christ (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). I am not a "Spiritual Israelite" because such a category is NEVER found in the whole Bible. It is a man-made term which contradicts. Israelites are the seed of Israel, Jacobs's new name. I am born of the Holy Spirit. My "fathers" did not come out of Egypt. My Father is Jehovah. I was born, "... not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
    Abraham and Isaac were not Israelites either, because Israel did not yet exist.
    They were Gentiles like Noah and Seth following God by faith.

    Do the OT faithful Gentiles, Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, Ruth, etc...
    Have a different, unknown third resurrection?

    Applying your logic above, the OT faithful Gentiles can’t be raised at the Bema, because you don’t think they were apart of the church, and they can’t be raised at the GWT because that is reserved for the wicked and Israelites.

    Here is another option.
    Don’t separate and create subgroups and subevents.
    Understand in scripture what you call the Bema and the GWT, both occur at the same time, when Christ returns, at a singular event scripture calls ‘The Great Day of Judgment”, which includes all human beings from ALL groups.

    Interpreting thusly, removes all the speculations and grouping problems, and aligns with the many examples Jesus gave that when He returns, He will judge the faithful and unfaithful together, clearing the unfaithful out of His earthly Kingdom forevermore. Then the righteous shall shine like the Sun in the Kingdom!

  7. #22
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Abraham and Isaac were not Israelites either, because Israel did not yet exist.
    They were Gentiles like Noah and Seth following God by faith.

    Do the OT faithful Gentiles, Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, Ruth, etc...
    Have a different, unknown third resurrection?

    Applying your logic above, the OT faithful Gentiles can’t be raised at the Bema, because you don’t think they were apart of the church, and they can’t be raised at the GWT because that is reserved for the wicked and Israelites.

    Here is another option.
    Don’t separate and create subgroups and subevents.
    Understand in scripture what you call the Bema and the GWT, both occur at the same time, when Christ returns, at a singular event scripture calls ‘The Great Day of Judgment”, which includes all human beings from ALL groups.

    Interpreting thusly, removes all the speculations and grouping problems, and aligns with the many examples Jesus gave that when He returns, He will judge the faithful and unfaithful together, clearing the unfaithful out of His earthly Kingdom forevermore. Then the righteous shall shine like the Sun in the Kingdom!


    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to David Taylor again.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  8. #23
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. If that is truly what you believe, then you must stand for it in confidence. I personally will not be judged at the White Throne. I will be judged at the "Bema" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). I am NOT an Israelite since this category does not exist in the New Man which is IN Christ (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). I am not a "Spiritual Israelite" because such a category is NEVER found in the whole Bible. It is a man-made term which contradicts. Israelites are the seed of Israel, Jacobs's new name. I am born of the Holy Spirit. My "fathers" did not come out of Egypt. My Father is Jehovah. I was born, "... not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
    Your contention that there is a separate Judgement for Christians, before the GWTJ, is wrong. Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor 5:10 mention a Tribunal, which is the Great White Throne, that we will all stand before, for each to receive what is due to us.
    There is a previous Judgement, when Jesus Returns; of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46, with verse 46 telling of the final outcome for individuals that will happen at the GWTJ. Revelation 20:11-15
    Also in Revelation 20:4, at that same time, the souls of those martyred during the Great Tribulation, will be confirmed as worthy to be brought back to life. But they too, must stand before God, along with everyone who has ever lived and only those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will then receive immortality.

    Re coming out of Egypt; Jesus fulfilled that requirement and we Christian believers of Jesus are His Spiritual descendants,and partakers of God's Promises thru Him.
    We are the Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God.

    Thanks, David Taylor; you make good points.

  9. #24
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Abraham and Isaac were not Israelites either, because Israel did not yet exist.
    They were Gentiles like Noah and Seth following God by faith.
    Did I address this in the posting you quote?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Do the OT faithful Gentiles, Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, Ruth, etc...
    Have a different, unknown third resurrection?
    Did I address this in the post you quote?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Applying your logic above, the OT faithful Gentiles can’t be raised at the Bema, because you don’t think they were apart of the church, and they can’t be raised at the GWT because that is reserved for the wicked and Israelites.
    Did I address this in the posting you quote. I can't even see the word "Church" in my posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Here is another option.
    Don’t separate and create subgroups and subevents.
    Understand in scripture what you call the Bema and the GWT, both occur at the same time, when Christ returns, at a singular event scripture calls ‘The Great Day of Judgment”, which includes all human beings from ALL groups.
    Revelation Chapter 20 CLEARLY separates the resurrection of Christians with the "rest of the dead" by a thousand years. And Israel are raised "at His coming" (1st Cor.15:23) since they are "His" and He is their owner and King.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Interpreting thusly, removes all the speculations and grouping problems, and aligns with the many examples Jesus gave that when He returns, He will judge the faithful and unfaithful together, clearing the unfaithful out of His earthly Kingdom forevermore. Then the righteous shall shine like the Sun in the Kingdom!
    The phrase, "the REST of the dead" IMPLIES that SOME are raised, followed by a pause, and then the REST are raised. Basic grammar. And the "pause" is given - one thousand years.

    I am perplexed at you Brother. In THREE cases above you introduced something I did not say or address, and then argued as if I said them. What is this? Surely you don't need to do this? Just take my statements for what they say.

  10. #25
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your contention that there is a separate Judgement for Christians, before the GWTJ, is wrong. Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor 5:10 mention a Tribunal, which is the Great White Throne, that we will all stand before, for each to receive what is due to us.
    There is a previous Judgement, when Jesus Returns; of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46, with verse 46 telling of the final outcome for individuals that will happen at the GWTJ. Revelation 20:11-15
    Also in Revelation 20:4, at that same time, the souls of those martyred during the Great Tribulation, will be confirmed as worthy to be brought back to life. But they too, must stand before God, along with everyone who has ever lived and only those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will then receive immortality.

    Re coming out of Egypt; Jesus fulfilled that requirement and we Christian believers of Jesus are His Spiritual descendants,and partakers of God's Promises thru Him.
    We are the Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God.

    Thanks, David Taylor; you make good points.
    I see the following.
    The Greek word for "Judgment Seat" in Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 is "Bema". A "bema" is a traveling throne for a king when he is on his travels. If he has to make a judgement on somebody or something, this seat, which represents his grand authority back at the main city of rule, is set up for him to sit on and judge. The word "Throne" in Matthew 25:31 is "THRONOS" in the Greek, indicating the FIXED throne in the city of rule. Thus, Herod, carrying Rome's authority, sits on a "bema", while Caesar sits on a "thronos" in Rome. If Caesar arrived to take stock of Judah and had to make a judgment, he would sit on Herod's Bema.

    If the Bible makes difference, we should make a difference. But we should also be able to explain this difference. It is this; "when does Jesus Christ TRAVEL and JUDGE?"

    1st Corinthians 15:23 says that "those that are His" will be raised at "HIS COMING". "Those that are His are (i) the Church, and (ii) Israel. The Church is raised WHILE OUR LORD IS TRAVELING BECAUSE HE HAS LEFT HEAVEN BUT YET IN THE CLOUDS (1st Thess.4:16-17). Israel, those who were scattered to the "four winds", are gathered AFTER our Lord Jesus touches down on earth (Matt.24:30-31). So the Church's judgment is in the air and clouds at the BEMA (while our Lord is TRAVELING), and Israel - a nation, is judged at the THRONOS of Matthew 25:31 some days or weeks later. Then, as the Lord has defeated the Beast and his army, the NATIONS who survive the Great Tribulation have become HIS POSSESSION (Ps.2:8) and will follow Israel and are judged at the THRONOS of Matthew 25:31.

    After this event, one thousand years of Christ's rule ensues IN WHICH men still die (Isa.65:20). This IMPLIES TWO THINGS;
    1. There must be a resurrection for the REST of the dead and a subsequent judgment
    2. Death has not been totally defeated. As long as one man is dead, death has not been defeated

    This in turn cause 1st Corinthians 15:24 to come into line with Revelation Chapter 20. There is a PAUSE, or a TIME, between the resurrection of "those who are His" in 1st Corinthians 15:23, and "the end, when death is defeated" in 1st Corinthians 15:24-26. This PAUSE, or TIME, or AGE, is the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign.

    After these thousand years, besides those who die during the Millennium, as Isaiah 65:20 indicates, the great battle of Magog will produce millions of deaths. So death is very much still an enemy of God just after Magog. The White THRONOS is set up then and "death and Hades give their dead". And so "THE REST OF THE DEAD" are raised and no man is left physically dead. The White Throne is NOT for the Church and for Israel because they were all raised "at His coming" 1,000 years earlier.

    This scenario does the following:
    • Each man dies once and is resurrected once
    • Each man is judged after his resurrection
    • Judgement "begins in the House of the Lord" (1st Pet.4:17). The Church, in the air, is first resurrected and first judged
    • There is no need to find a "resuscitation" and then a resurrection, a thought that appears nowhere in scripture
    • The Millennium of Revelation 20 is upheld.
    • Israel's restoration is upheld for the Messianic age
    • The foolish Virgins of the Church have time to go and buy oil
    • The order is just as the grammar indicates - First, Christ returning to resurrected and judge His TWO peoples. Then judge the LIVING of the nations. Then a thousand years of the rule of the rod of iron. Then the rebellion of Magog. Then the White Throne. Then the New (renewed - Gk.) Heaven and New Earth in which there is no more physical death.

  11. #26
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see the following.
    The Greek word for "Judgment Seat" in Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 is "Bema". A "bema" is a traveling throne for a king when he is on his travels. If he has to make a judgement on somebody or something, this seat, which represents his grand authority back at the main city of rule, is set up for him to sit on and judge. The word "Throne" in Matthew 25:31 is "THRONOS" in the Greek, indicating the FIXED throne in the city of rule. Thus, Herod, carrying Rome's authority, sits on a "bema", while Caesar sits on a "thronos" in Rome. If Caesar arrived to take stock of Judah and had to make a judgment, he would sit on Herod's Bema.

    If the Bible makes difference, we should make a difference. But we should also be able to explain this difference. It is this; "when does Jesus Christ TRAVEL and JUDGE?"

    1st Corinthians 15:23 says that "those that are His" will be raised at "HIS COMING". "Those that are His are (i) the Church, and (ii) Israel. The Church is raised WHILE OUR LORD IS TRAVELING BECAUSE HE HAS LEFT HEAVEN BUT YET IN THE CLOUDS (1st Thess.4:16-17). Israel, those who were scattered to the "four winds", are gathered AFTER our Lord Jesus touches down on earth (Matt.24:30-31). So the Church's judgment is in the air and clouds at the BEMA (while our Lord is TRAVELING), and Israel - a nation, is judged at the THRONOS of Matthew 25:31 some days or weeks later. Then, as the Lord has defeated the Beast and his army, the NATIONS who survive the Great Tribulation have become HIS POSSESSION (Ps.2:8) and will follow Israel and are judged at the THRONOS of Matthew 25:31.

    After this event, one thousand years of Christ's rule ensues IN WHICH men still die (Isa.65:20). This IMPLIES TWO THINGS;
    1. There must be a resurrection for the REST of the dead and a subsequent judgment
    2. Death has not been totally defeated. As long as one man is dead, death has not been defeated

    This in turn cause 1st Corinthians 15:24 to come into line with Revelation Chapter 20. There is a PAUSE, or a TIME, between the resurrection of "those who are His" in 1st Corinthians 15:23, and "the end, when death is defeated" in 1st Corinthians 15:24-26. This PAUSE, or TIME, or AGE, is the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign.

    After these thousand years, besides those who die during the Millennium, as Isaiah 65:20 indicates, the great battle of Magog will produce millions of deaths. So death is very much still an enemy of God just after Magog. The White THRONOS is set up then and "death and Hades give their dead". And so "THE REST OF THE DEAD" are raised and no man is left physically dead. The White Throne is NOT for the Church and for Israel because they were all raised "at His coming" 1,000 years earlier.

    This scenario does the following:
    • Each man dies once and is resurrected once
    • Each man is judged after his resurrection
    • Judgement "begins in the House of the Lord" (1st Pet.4:17). The Church, in the air, is first resurrected and first judged
    • There is no need to find a "resuscitation" and then a resurrection, a thought that appears nowhere in scripture
    • The Millennium of Revelation 20 is upheld.
    • Israel's restoration is upheld for the Messianic age
    • The foolish Virgins of the Church have time to go and buy oil
    • The order is just as the grammar indicates - First, Christ returning to resurrected and judge His TWO peoples. Then judge the LIVING of the nations. Then a thousand years of the rule of the rod of iron. Then the rebellion of Magog. Then the White Throne. Then the New (renewed - Gk.) Heaven and New Earth in which there is no more physical death.
    When Jesus Returns, He will first dispose of the army of the Anti-Christ at Armageddon and chain up Satan. Rev 20:1-3
    Then there will be a Judgement...of just those martyrs killed during the GT. They will be brought back to life; NOT yet made immortal. Rev 20:4
    ALL the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years has ended. Rev 20:5
    Those martyrs raised back to life have no fear if they die again, because their names are Written in the Book of Life and they will receive immortality at the GWTJ. Rev 20:6

    So the first six verses of Revelation 20 blows apart your idea that all the dead in Christ will be raised at the Return.
    Then, there will exist no nation of ethnic Israel, those who call themselves Israel will be uprooted long before then. Jeremiah 12:14 It will be all of God's faithful people who will welcome Jesus with the shout of; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.

  12. #27
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Did I address this in the posting you quote?



    Did I address this in the post you quote?



    Did I address this in the posting you quote. I can't even see the word "Church" in my posting.



    Revelation Chapter 20 CLEARLY separates the resurrection of Christians with the "rest of the dead" by a thousand years. And Israel are raised "at His coming" (1st Cor.15:23) since they are "His" and He is their owner and King.



    The phrase, "the REST of the dead" IMPLIES that SOME are raised, followed by a pause, and then the REST are raised. Basic grammar. And the "pause" is given - one thousand years.

    I am perplexed at you Brother. In THREE cases above you introduced something I did not say or address, and then argued as if I said them. What is this? Surely you don't need to do this? Just take my statements for what they say.
    Sorry if I seemed to misqoute.
    Let me try to clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I personally will not be judged at the White Throne. I will be judged at the "Bema" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). I am NOT an Israelite
    My implication was on your two-fold resurrection suggestion.

    You were saying that Christians are raised and judged at the Bema, and that Israel is raised and judged at the GWT, right?

    So my question was, where do you raise and judge the OT Gentile faithful like Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, Ruth, etc...?

    They aren't 'Christians' (according to you ...correct me if you think otherwise); and they aren't Israelites (according to the scriptures....correct me if you think Israelite is figurative for all believers anytime).

    So when do they raise and judge?

    That was my point, sorry I wasn't clear.

  13. #28
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see the following.
    The Greek word for "Judgment Seat" in Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 is "Bema". A "bema" is a traveling throne for a king when he is on his travels. If he has to make a judgement on somebody or something, this seat, which represents his grand authority back at the main city of rule, is set up for him to sit on and judge. The word "Throne" in Matthew 25:31 is "THRONOS" in the Greek, indicating the FIXED throne in the city of rule. Thus, Herod, carrying Rome's authority, sits on a "bema", while Caesar sits on a "thronos" in Rome. If Caesar arrived to take stock of Judah and had to make a judgment, he would sit on Herod's Bema.

    If the Bible makes difference, we should make a difference.
    Are you saying that:

    --Bema Seat judgments, are good judgments where the rewards are given out only; but never punishments; whereas
    --Thronos judgments, are bad judgments where the sentence and punishments are given out only; but never rewards
    ?

  14. #29
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Sorry if I seemed to misqoute.
    Let me try to clarify.


    My implication was on your two-fold resurrection suggestion.

    You were saying that Christians are raised and judged at the Bema, and that Israel is raised and judged at the GWT, right?

    So my question was, where do you raise and judge the OT Gentile faithful like Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, Ruth, etc...?

    They aren't 'Christians' (according to you ...correct me if you think otherwise); and they aren't Israelites (according to the scriptures....correct me if you think Israelite is figurative for all believers anytime).

    So when do they raise and judge?

    That was my point, sorry I wasn't clear.
    No problem.

    And may I tender my posting #25 as the answer to this. But I will expand a bit on Israel's resurrection and judgment.

    1st Corinthians 15:22 says that ALL men will be resurrected. But verse 23 says that each in his own order. The "order" given is Christ first, then "those who are His at His coming". This a jump of 2,000 years (or as Hosea 6:2 puts it - two days). Then verse 24 says that the end will come, but defines the conditions of the "end". It is when Christ has ruled a time and subdued ALL enemies and powers. Verse 26 says that the LAST of these enemies is death. So Christ must rule between His coming and the last man being resurrected. So all we have to do is find out how long this rue of Christ's is to establish when the last man will be resurrected. And this is found in clear, unambiguous wording in Revelation Chapter 20. It is also found, but obscurely, in Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 concerning the "Remaining Sabbath Rest". I do not want to go into that now to save space, but the sequence, or "order" of resurrection is then;
    1. Christ first
    2. Then 2,000 years (or the gospel age) passes
    3. Those who are His at His Coming
    4. Then 1,000 years pass and "the rest of the dead" are resurrected

    Now, all we have to do is find out "who are His", and to find out what is the significance of the word "Coming".

    For clarity let us reverse the inquiry. What does "Coming" mean?
    The Greek word is "Parousia" which literally means "Presence". Let's take an example. A man travels from New York to San Francisco by train. This usually takes about 3.5 days (80 hours). The route is via Chicago, Denver and Salt Lake City. After a day or so the man is "PRESENT" (Parousia) in Chicago, but has not ARRIVED at His destination. after 2 days he will be PRESENT in Denver but not yet ARRIVED at San Francisco. Finally, after 80 hours he will be PRESENT in San Francisco and will have ARRIVED in San Francisco. It is no different with our Lord Jesus.

    He will start His journey from the "Highest Heaven". After some time He will be in the Stratosphere and after some more time He will be PRESENT in the Troposphere where the clouds are. He has not yet ARRIVED on earth but is PRESENT in the clouds. Now the Church is raptured to the clouds to meet Christ. Therefore, IN REGARD TO THE CHURCH HE IS "PAROUSIA" - PRESENT (but it is in the clouds). There the chuch is judged at the Bema. When this is complete, our Lord Jesus continues his journey and bursts out of the clouds and touches down on Mount of Olives - Jerusalem. He has ARRIVED at His destination AND He is PRESENT with JUDAH. After liberating Jerusalem, He proceeds to Armageddon and fights a battle to take "the Kingdoms of this World" for His own. He the proceeds to Bozrah of Edom and takes part in a great slaughter of Esau's offspring. All the while He is within 200 miles of Jerusalem.

    When this great slaughter is over, our Lord Jesus, New King of this earth by military victory, sets up His THRONE in Jerusalem. All this time He has been PRESENT with Judah. Then He orders the RESURRECTION of every Israelite who ever lived and was circumcised, and then orders the angels to collect dispersed Israel from the "four winds" where they were dispersed to. Soon, ALL Israel who ever lived are PRESENT with Christ in Canaan. And then He judges Israel (Dan.12:2).

    In BOTH CASES, that of the Church in the clouds, and a bit later, that of Israel at Jerusalem, our Lord Jesus was PRESENT (Parousia) with the group who were to be judged. And thus is 1st Corinthians 15:23 accurate. The Church are His because the were redeemed by Him and "bought" (1st Cor.6:20, 7:23). Israel is His because He is their King, Kinsman and Redeemer (Lk.1:68).

    The last event in this time will be the judgement of the Nations who survive the great Tribulation. This happens in Matthew 25:31-46 after Israel has been judged. It could be debated whether "the Nations are His", but I tend to go by simple OWNERSHIP. The Nations were OWNED by Satan via the Beast. The Nations payed the Beast obeisance. But now Christ has defeated the Beast and the SPOILS are His. So, the LIVING of the Nations are judged too at His PRESENCE. But if you don't agree I won't fight about it. A good argument against my thesis is that our Lord Jesus has the key to Hades (Rev.1:18). Thus, it can be accurately said that our Lord OWNS the dead too - and they are not judged till the thousand years is over. Take your pick.

    To summarize - The Church is raptured to the PRESENCE of the Lord in the clouds and judged. When this is complete our Lord descends to earth and is PRESENT in Judah. There Israel are resurrected, gathered and judged. How many years this whole matter takes is up to pure speculation. In another thread I made a calculation that IF (a big IF) the total worlds population since Pentecost has been 67 billion (a secular estimate), and 3% of men became Christians, and each Christian took 6 seconds at the Bema, it would take about 380 years to judge the Christians. I somehow think our Lord has a more efficient plan, but what this does show is how long our Lord Jesus could pause, and be PRESENT in the sky for the Bema.

    (3% of 67 billion = 2 billion Christians. 31.56 million seconds a year divided by 6 seconds per Christian = 5.26 million Christians per year. 2 billion divided by 5.26 million = 380 years)

  15. #30
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When Jesus Returns, He will first dispose of the army of the Anti-Christ at Armageddon and chain up Satan. Rev 20:1-3
    Then there will be a Judgement...of just those martyrs killed during the GT. They will be brought back to life; NOT yet made immortal. Rev 20:4
    ALL the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years has ended. Rev 20:5
    Those martyrs raised back to life have no fear if they die again, because their names are Written in the Book of Life and they will receive immortality at the GWTJ. Rev 20:6

    So the first six verses of Revelation 20 blows apart your idea that all the dead in Christ will be raised at the Return.
    Then, there will exist no nation of ethnic Israel, those who call themselves Israel will be uprooted long before then. Jeremiah 12:14 It will be all of God's faithful people who will welcome Jesus with the shout of; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
    Your theory can only stand if scripture shows
    1. TWO resurrection - one, resuscitation unto death and one a resuscitation unto immortality
    2. That a man can die after resurrection


    In both cases the Bible is clear:
    (1) 1st Corinthians 15:35-42 says;
    35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    ...
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"


    If it is raised in "incorruption" it cannot die again. So there is but ONE resurrection.

    (2) Hebrews 9:27 says; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". And Luke 20:35-36 says;
    35 "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."


    A man cannot die twice, and there is no record of any man dying twice in the WHOLE Bible, and those who are resurrected cannot die - being like the angels.

    Your theory is disproved.

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