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Thread: Jesus is the Israel of God

  1. #31
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Are you saying that:

    --Bema Seat judgments, are good judgments where the rewards are given out only; but never punishments; whereas
    --Thronos judgments, are bad judgments where the sentence and punishments are given out only; but never rewards
    ?
    No.
    1. At the BEMA reward and loss are apportioned to the Church according to OBEDIENCE to the Holy Spirit in their human spirits AFTER CONVERSION (Sins before conversion are wiped and sins confessed after conversion are wiped. But the issue is whether the Christian has proved to be obedient in the end)
    2. At the THRONOS Israel is judged by OBEDIENCE to the Law (Rom.2:5-12) (Israel's sins are put away for their RESTORATION but not for their well-being once they are restored (Dan.12:2)
    3. At the THRONOS and WHITE THRONE the Nations are judged by OBEDIENCE to WORKS that their conscience dictated (Rom.2:15)

    All Judgements are for WORKS.
    1. The Christian, in Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 must account for WHAT THEY DID - actions - works
    2. The Israelite will be judged on how they kept the Law. David and Elijah will have a different future to Saul and Solomon (Dan.12:2)
    3. The Nations are judged by their works. Did they actively go against God or not (Isa.66:24). In the Judgement of the LIVING after the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-46), the Nations are judged how they treated a Christian and a Jew who were left to go through the great Tribulation. In the Judgement of the "rest of the dead" at the White Throne, the Books of their WORKS are opened

    I know what the next question is though. How can one of the Nations be found in the Book of life? It's 01:00 here and I don't have the concentration left to write a short paper on the Book of Life. But here is a clue. The Book of Life is ALWAYS connected to WORKS. Start with this Book and Moses, and go through the Bible till the White Throne and you will see that it is ALWAYS connected to works. What escapes most Christians is that LIFE works TWO WAYS:
    1. If a man believes in Christ He HAS Eternal LIFE. It is an intrinsic nature change. All scripture that indicates HAVING Eternal LIFE is connected to FAITH.
    2. Then, when the man who HAS Eternal LIFE is made co-king with Christ in the Millennium, he will, through this LIFE, or NATURE in him, rule like Christ. This creates a LIFE (style). LIFE is good. LIFE is equitous. LIFE is longevity. LIFE is good harvests. LIFE is peaceful. If Satan rules there is no LIFE - just bondage, pain, theft, killing and lies. The LIFE that Christ's rule will cause is BLISS. It is this LIFE that the Book of LIFE regulates. It is NOT those who HAVE LIFE who the book of LIFE regulates, but who will ENTER the LIFE (style) of the Kingdom of Heaven when Christ rules with His overcomers.

    1. That is why a Christian, who HAS LIFE, can miss ENTERING LIFE (Matthew 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-45) by WORKS, and why Matthew 19:17 says; "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Conversely, a Christian who is already written in the Book of LIFE can be blotted out for evil WORKS (Rev.3:5). This does not mean he loses his salvation or rebirth or nature-change. It means that he is barred from the bliss of LIFE in the Kingdom.
    2. That is also why a member of the Nations can be VOID of Eternal LIFE and still be found IN the Book of LIFE. There is an easy example of this. A healthy baby is aborted by its mother and murdered. What shall become of this baby? Well, it will be resurrected at the White Throne and because no WORKS against God are found, this baby, now most probably a wise adult after over a thousand years in Hades, will be allowed to ENTER LIFE on earth in BLISS. But Herod, having ordered the murder of babies in and around Bethlehem will NOT be found in the book of Life and enter "THE SECOND DEATH"

    I hope this short explanation starts a new train of thought that will lead to a correct understanding of the Book of Life. Just by the way, it took me ten years to study this matter and see it. I don't expect you to change overnight. Go well bro.

  2. #32
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your theory can only stand if scripture shows
    1. TWO resurrection - one, resuscitation unto death and one a resuscitation unto immortality
    2. That a man can die after resurrection


    In both cases the Bible is clear:
    (1) 1st Corinthians 15:35-42 says;
    35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    ...
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"


    If it is raised in "incorruption" it cannot die again. So there is but ONE resurrection.

    (2) Hebrews 9:27 says; "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". And Luke 20:35-36 says;
    35 "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."


    A man cannot die twice, and there is no record of any man dying twice in the WHOLE Bible, and those who are resurrected cannot die - being like the angels.

    Your theory is disproved.
    So then; where is Lazarus today?
    He died, he was brought back to life, then he died naturally again, but Jesus makes it clear that Lazarus will rise again in the last day. John 11:21-26
    Just as the martyrs will be; 'brought back to life', but may die again and as specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:6....Over them, the second death has no power..
    Why should the Bible tell us that if they had been immortalized?

    No; Revelation 20:11-15, Hebrews 9:27, Luke 20:35-36 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 are plain; only at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day - after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened, will immortality be conferred. This is logical and obviates the difficulty of having immortal people around before Death is finally conquered.

  3. #33
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    So then; where is Lazarus today?
    He died, he was brought back to life, then he died naturally again, but Jesus makes it clear that Lazarus will rise again in the last day. John 11:21-26
    Just as the martyrs will be; 'brought back to life', but may die again and as specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:6....Over them, the second death has no power..
    Why should the Bible tell us that if they had been immortalized?

    No; Revelation 20:11-15, Hebrews 9:27, Luke 20:35-36 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 are plain; only at the Last Trumpet, on the Last Day - after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened, will immortality be conferred. This is logical and obviates the difficulty of having immortal people around before Death is finally conquered.
    Where Lazarus is? What does the Bible say? NOTHING! Where are Enoch and Elijah today? The Bible says; "taken by God"! Where are the multitude resurrected shortly after our Lord Jesus (Matt.27:52-53)? What does the Bible say? NOTHING! You say they died again. On what do you base this? It is is your own ADDITION! What does the Bible say about dying again. Why, I quoted you Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:35-36 that a man can only die once. And what do you do? IGNORE THEM! That is your manner of handling God's Word - IGNORE what doesn't agree with you.

    In John 11:21-26 it was MARTHA who said that her brother would rise AT the last day - not our Lord Jesus. Read the passage again. Our Lord Jesus said otherwise. He said I AM (present tense) and Lazarus was resurrected THEN (present tense). What became of him the Bible does not say except that he cannot die again.

    Let us see if Revelation 20:6 "specifically mentions" the sainst dying again: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." "SPECIFICALLY"? WHERE? It says that they are blessed. The word "FIRST" in the Greek can mean FIRST IN TIME, or it can mean FIRST IN IMPORTANCE. Since Christ is FIRST in TIME nearly 2,000 years before these Overcomers, it CANNOT BE "FIRST IN TIME"! BUT SEEING AS THEIR DESTINY IS TO RULE - A REWARD, then "First" must mean "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE". Next, there is no talk of dying again. It mentions the "Second Death" which is NOT THE DEATH OF THE BODY but the SOUL. Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 say that the "Second Death" is the Lake of fire. And the lake of Fire is where the Beast goes, but Revelation 17:8 and 17:11 call is "perdition". And "perdition" in the Greek means "Lack of well-being (Vine). And Matthew 10:28 calls this extreme lack of well being of BOTH BODY and SOUL "GEHENNA".

    The "Second Death" is for LIVING MEN, not the dead. The "Second Death" is where men are tormented "day and night forever". It has NOTHING to do with dying physically again.

    Revelation 20:11-15, Hebrews 9:27, Luke 20:35-36 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 do not infer dying again. Read them. Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:35-36 say the OPPOSITE - that a man CANNOT DIE AGAIN! Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of the DEAD and their resurrection to "stand" before the Throne. And it addresses the time AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS. And those who are DEAD are called by verse 5 - "THE REST OF THE DEAD"! That is, SOME were dead and are not and those that had to wait 1,000 years are the REST - THE REMAINDER. 1st Corinthians 15:50-56 DOESN'T EVEN ADDRESS THE DEAD. IT ADDRESSES THE LIVING who must be changed to inherit the Kingdom.

    Even your proffered verses speak against your thesis. C'mon brother .... as an intelligent man you must see that your theory of multiple deaths for a man cannot stand.

  4. #34
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Where Lazarus is? What does the Bible say? NOTHING! Where are Enoch and Elijah today? The Bible says; "taken by God"! Where are the multitude resurrected shortly after our Lord Jesus (Matt.27:52-53)? What does the Bible say? NOTHING! You say they died again. On what do you base this? It is is your own ADDITION! What does the Bible say about dying again. Why, I quoted you Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:35-36 that a man can only die once. And what do you do? IGNORE THEM! That is your manner of handling God's Word - IGNORE what doesn't agree with you.

    In John 11:21-26 it was MARTHA who said that her brother would rise AT the last day - not our Lord Jesus. Read the passage again. Our Lord Jesus said otherwise. He said I AM (present tense) and Lazarus was resurrected THEN (present tense). What became of him the Bible does not say except that he cannot die again.

    Let us see if Revelation 20:6 "specifically mentions" the sainst dying again: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." "SPECIFICALLY"? WHERE? It says that they are blessed. The word "FIRST" in the Greek can mean FIRST IN TIME, or it can mean FIRST IN IMPORTANCE. Since Christ is FIRST in TIME nearly 2,000 years before these Overcomers, it CANNOT BE "FIRST IN TIME"! BUT SEEING AS THEIR DESTINY IS TO RULE - A REWARD, then "First" must mean "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE". Next, there is no talk of dying again. It mentions the "Second Death" which is NOT THE DEATH OF THE BODY but the SOUL. Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 say that the "Second Death" is the Lake of fire. And the lake of Fire is where the Beast goes, but Revelation 17:8 and 17:11 call is "perdition". And "perdition" in the Greek means "Lack of well-being (Vine). And Matthew 10:28 calls this extreme lack of well being of BOTH BODY and SOUL "GEHENNA".

    The "Second Death" is for LIVING MEN, not the dead. The "Second Death" is where men are tormented "day and night forever". It has NOTHING to do with dying physically again.

    Revelation 20:11-15, Hebrews 9:27, Luke 20:35-36 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 do not infer dying again. Read them. Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:35-36 say the OPPOSITE - that a man CANNOT DIE AGAIN! Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of the DEAD and their resurrection to "stand" before the Throne. And it addresses the time AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS. And those who are DEAD are called by verse 5 - "THE REST OF THE DEAD"! That is, SOME were dead and are not and those that had to wait 1,000 years are the REST - THE REMAINDER. 1st Corinthians 15:50-56 DOESN'T EVEN ADDRESS THE DEAD. IT ADDRESSES THE LIVING who must be changed to inherit the Kingdom.

    Even your proffered verses speak against your thesis. C'mon brother .... as an intelligent man you must see that your theory of multiple deaths for a man cannot stand.
    You are ignoring some quite important facts, first you call the awakening of Lazarus (John 11:11) a resurrection, something Scripture never does.

    A resurrection is only a resurrection when we are changed, like the Lord says in Luke 20:35, 36: « But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that aion (not world), and the resurrection from the dead ... », so here the time of the resurrection is clearly stated, at the end of this aion, like Martha correctly said in John 11:24 (the last day of this aion). And in v. 36 « Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels ... », Lazarus wasn't equal to the angels after Christ awoke him from his « sleep », it wasn't therefore a resurrection but an awakening. Big difference, so he could — and did — die again.

    What you also do not seem to see is what is meant by death. Those who now « live » but are spiritually dead to God, are in « first death » like the Lord says in Mat. 8:22 « ... let the dead (who are alive) bury their dead (who are no longer alive) ». Both are called « nekros » in Greek. Those who are not regenerated by God are dead to Him.

    From 1 Cor. 15:50 it is clear that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, Lazarus was still flesh and blood, so not equal to the angels. In v. 51 Paul says « Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed ». So those who « sleep » are not dead? I don't think so, both the dead and those alive are changed, so they are equal to the angels.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Thanks, Aristarkos; I agree with you on this issue.

    The certain truth that we can glean from all the scriptures, is that no one can become immortal until the GWTJ and the Book of Life is opened: Daniel 12:16, Malachi 3:16-17, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:12

  6. #36
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    You are ignoring some quite important facts, first you call the awakening of Lazarus (John 11:11) a resurrection, something Scripture never does.

    A resurrection is only a resurrection when we are changed, like the Lord says in Luke 20:35, 36: « But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that aion (not world), and the resurrection from the dead ... », so here the time of the resurrection is clearly stated, at the end of this aion, like Martha correctly said in John 11:24 (the last day of this aion). And in v. 36 « Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels ... », Lazarus wasn't equal to the angels after Christ awoke him from his « sleep », it wasn't therefore a resurrection but an awakening. Big difference, so he could — and did — die again.

    What you also do not seem to see is what is meant by death. Those who now « live » but are spiritually dead to God, are in « first death » like the Lord says in Mat. 8:22 « ... let the dead (who are alive) bury their dead (who are no longer alive) ». Both are called « nekros » in Greek. Those who are not regenerated by God are dead to Him.

    From 1 Cor. 15:50 it is clear that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, Lazarus was still flesh and blood, so not equal to the angels. In v. 51 Paul says « Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed ». So those who « sleep » are not dead? I don't think so, both the dead and those alive are changed, so they are equal to the angels.

    Aristarkos
    Do you base a whole doctrine of two or more different raisings on the words "awakening from asleep"? Then you must apply the same theory to 1st Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept", and 1st Thessalonians 5:10, "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." If you represent a doctrine of multiple deaths for men you must show it with scripture. Let us start with Lazarus. Which scriptures do you use to show he died again?

    And while we are on Lazarus, what proof do you bring that he was fit for the Kingdom? For the Kingdom a man needs to be born again (Jn.3:3), Baptized (Jn.3:5) be poor in spirit (Matt.5:3), be persecuted for righteousness' sake (Matt.5:10), be more righteous than the Pharisees (Matt.5:20) and do the will of God (Matt.7:21).

    Staying with Lazarus, you maintain that he was not changed, that he was not like the angles. But I ask you in what way was our Lord Jesus changed? And how was He like the angels? He pointedly said He was not like a spirit, but was flesh and bones (Lk.24:39). And have you not read that in resurrection different men will have different glories - some "celestial" and some "terrestrial" (1st Cor.15:40-42). In what way did our Lord Jesus display His "celestial" glory and which one did Lazarus have? I will tell you in what way those who attain to that age are like angels. IN THAT THEY CAN'T DIE AND CAN'T MARRY - NOTHING MORE. I think you make too much of it in your posting.

    Now let us address your phrase "spiritually dead". Where is this phrase ever mentioned in the Bible? And what proof do you bring that a spirit can die? Did we not just establish that angels, who are spirits (Ps.104:4; Heb.1:7), cannot die?

    And finally, in your posting, you failed to address Hebrews 9:27. Why? It's wording is plain.

    These, and more need to be shown.

  7. #37
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Do you base a whole doctrine of two or more different raisings on the words "awakening from asleep"? Then you must apply the same theory to 1st Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept", and 1st Thessalonians 5:10, "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." If you represent a doctrine of multiple deaths for men you must show it with scripture. Let us start with Lazarus. Which scriptures do you use to show he died again?
    I do not present a doctrine, I present Scripture, you know that very well. Lazarus BTW wasn't the first one to come back to life, see 1 Kings 17:17 — 22, the child was dead.

    And while we are on Lazarus, what proof do you bring that he was fit for the Kingdom? For the Kingdom a man needs to be born again (Jn.3:3), Baptized (Jn.3:5) be poor in spirit (Matt.5:3), be persecuted for righteousness' sake (Matt.5:10), be more righteous than the Pharisees (Matt.5:20) and do the will of God (Matt.7:21).
    It would be nice if you show where I say that, I didn't.

    Staying with Lazarus, you maintain that he was not changed, that he was not like the angles. But I ask you in what way was our Lord Jesus changed? And how was He like the angels? He pointedly said He was not like a spirit, but was flesh and bones (Lk.24:39). And have you not read that in resurrection different men will have different glories - some "celestial" and some "terrestrial" (1st Cor.15:40-42). In what way did our Lord Jesus display His "celestial" glory and which one did Lazarus have? I will tell you in what way those who attain to that age are like angels. IN THAT THEY CAN'T DIE AND CAN'T MARRY - NOTHING MORE. I think you make too much of it in your posting.
    Why are you bringing the resurrection of Jesus into the equation? With this you're saying that the resurrection of the Lord was just common? And what makes you think the terrestrial bodies in 1 Cor. 15:40 are resurrected when the Lord says in Luke 20 they are equal to the angels? Is Scripture contradicting itself or are you?

    Now let us address your phrase "spiritually dead". Where is this phrase ever mentioned in the Bible? And what proof do you bring that a spirit can die? Did we not just establish that angels, who are spirits (Ps.104:4; Heb.1:7), cannot die?
    No we didn't, « cannot die » implies immortality and only God is immortal all others can die. Satan who is a high (in order) spiritual being will become ashes on the earth once Eze. 28:18. If you have so much problems with the term « spiritually dead », then the natural men (1 Cor. 2:14). (whom is still spiritually dead).

    And finally, in your posting, you failed to address Hebrews 9:27. Why? It's wording is plain.

    These, and more need to be shown.
    The word used in Heb. 9:27 is « apokeimai » in Col. 1:5 translated by « laid up » as well as in Luke 19:20 and 2 Tim. 4:8, only in Heb. 9:27 it is translated by appointed. You are aware there are exceptions to rules? As a rule men only dies once, does that mean the Lord doesn't have the power to let some — like the child in 1 Kings and Lazarus — die twice?

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I do not present a doctrine, I present Scripture, you know that very well. Lazarus BTW wasn't the first one to come back to life, see 1 Kings 17:17 — 22, the child was dead.



    It would be nice if you show where I say that, I didn't.



    Why are you bringing the resurrection of Jesus into the equation? With this you're saying that the resurrection of the Lord was just common? And what makes you think the terrestrial bodies in 1 Cor. 15:40 are resurrected when the Lord says in Luke 20 they are equal to the angels? Is Scripture contradicting itself or are you?



    No we didn't, « cannot die » implies immortality and only God is immortal all others can die. Satan who is a high (in order) spiritual being will become ashes on the earth once Eze. 28:18. If you have so much problems with the term « spiritually dead », then the natural men (1 Cor. 2:14). (whom is still spiritually dead).



    The word used in Heb. 9:27 is « apokeimai » in Col. 1:5 translated by « laid up » as well as in Luke 19:20 and 2 Tim. 4:8, only in Heb. 9:27 it is translated by appointed. You are aware there are exceptions to rules? As a rule men only dies once, does that mean the Lord doesn't have the power to let some — like the child in 1 Kings and Lazarus — die twice?

    Aristarkos
    Thank you for your answer. Hoping that you will be in agreement, I will not counter your sentences one by one as this runs the risk of getting far off the track. Instead, in view of what you have we discuss, I wish to lay forth my understanding of resurrection - of course, documented with scripture. I will try to set it forth fact upon fact so that not long discussions are needed. You can attack a fact as soon as you find it untrue.

    Man is made of three parts, (i) soil which constitutes his BODY, (ii) spirit - the vitalizing breath of God, and (iii) SOUL - the psychological part of man (coming from the Greek "psuche") which is constituted by his mind, emotions and will (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). I would like to maintain what James 2:26 says - that the spirit is the vitalizing part and when the spirit of man departs, or, as scripture often says, "he gives UP the ghost". I would also like to maintain that this "breath of God" is not His eternal and divine LIFE because the cattle have this "breath" too (Eccl.3:19). The rebirth of John 3:3-6 is an EXTRA birth, and it is only to be had by FAITH in Jesus (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15).

    When Adam ate of the forbidden and deathly Tree, the death that ensued is PHYSICAL BODILY DEATH. To be sure of this we can examine the destiny of the other two parts of man.
    1. The human spirit cannot die. There is no record of any spirit ever dying, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, we have established that both God and angles, who are spirits, never die. At human physical death the spirit of man leaves his body and returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7, Lk.23:46). Thus, the term, or concept of "spiritual death" is neither found in scripture nor is alluded to.
    2. The SOUL of man can die but the death of the soul is not a cessation of awareness and activity like the body. The death of the soul is described by the Bible as acute and extreme "lack of well-being". This is the meaning of the Greek word we render "perdition" (Vine). So in Gethsemane our Lord "... saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matt.26:38, Mk.14:34). In Matthew 10:28 we what Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire is; "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA."
    3. The BODY, made of the elements of earth, is man's VESSEL. It is a "house" or "Tabernacle" (2nd Cor.5:1) and it houses the soul and the spirit. Man is built like the Temple, the body being the Outer Court, the soul being the Holy Place and the spirit being the Holy of Holies. It has TWO LIVES - or TWO sustaining elements. Its PHYSICAL life is in the blood (Gen.9:4, etc.), and its VITALITY comes from the spirit (Jas.2:26).

    At death, the spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:12:7), the soul goes to the place under the earth called Hades, and the spirit returns to God.

    RESURRECTION in the Greek - "anistasis" means "to stand up". It comes from the root word "anistemi" - "to stand upright". RESURRECTION ONLY PERTAINS TO THE BODY. The soul RISES from under the earth, but the body RISES FROM the earth because as soon as it blood and/or spirit is gone, it starts to decay back to th elements of the earth. Since the SOUL has another type of death, and the spirit of man cannot die - DEATH and RESURRECTION PERTAIN TO THE BODY.

    Romans 6:23 says; "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Notice the word "sin" is in the singular. The Bible make a difference between "sin" (singular) and "sins" or "trespasses" (plural). The cause of human physical death is not our trespasses (plural). It is that poisonous nature that Adam took in when he ate of the deathly tree. The "sin" NATURE of Adam is the cause of death. Romans 5:12 tells us; "Wherefore, as by one man sin (singular) entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That is why a baby that has not sinned can also die. Every man inherits Adam's nature because he comes OUT OF Adam.

    This is important because God, Who is LIFE, is diametrically opposed to death. It is an eyesore in His realm. It is called His "last ENEMY" in 1st Corinthians 15:26. So when our Lord Jesus went to the cross as a Judicial Substitute for man, He died for:-
    1. The SIN (singular) of the world (Jn.1:29)
    2. The SINS (plural) of the world (1st Jn.2:2).

    In regard to resurrection point #1 is CRUCIAL. Christ dying for the SIN (singular) of the world ALLOWS GOD TO OVERTURN DEATH since it is this "sin-Nature" that causes it. Man is born. Man dies. It is the portion of every man who ever came from Adam (1st Cor.15:22). Whether a baby who has not trespassed, Hitler who made himself an enemy of Abraham's seed - Israel, or Paul the Apostle - human physical death is our portion. And RESURRECTION is the PORTION of every man (including the worst sinners) BECAUSE IN RESURRECTING CHRIST, GOD CONFIRMED THAT THE SIN-NATURE WAS DEALT WITH BY CHRIST'S DEATH. If one little bit of the sin-Nature was left, Christ could not have been resurrected - AND NOR COULD ANY MAN BE RESURRECTED. Conversely, if God resurrects any man, TO REVERSE IT WOULD BE SAYING THAT CHRIST'S DEATH WAS INADEQUATE. Thus we have Hebrews 9:27 which requires death only once for every man.

    That is the main reason why a man cannot die twice. The recovering of a man's body from the dust, coupled with his spirit returning from God and his soul from beneath the earth, is based solely upon Christ's death. If a little part of "sin" remained, neither Christ nor any other man could resurrected, AND if no little part of "sin" remains the there is is NO GROUNDS FOR DEATH. If God did not raise Christ, that would have meant that His death was JUDICIALLY not enough for Adam's transgression that has been passed to all men. No man could have been raised. If Christ's death is JUDICIALLY enough, then no man can die again once he has come into the enjoyment of Christ's work.

    In closing, may I remark on why there is confusion in Christianity about resurrection. The first and biggest hindrance to a correct understanding of it is that most Christians believe the Roman Catholic myth that we die and go to heaven. What then is the resurrection for if we go to heaven? To many Christians it thus becomes an inconvenience. But worse than this is the fact that such a doctrine is utterly demeaning of God. It means that He made man with a plan in mind, and Satan was able to spoil that plan. God made man FROM the earth, to be nourished BY the earth, FOR subduing and ruling the earth. God's whole plan revolves around man being (i) a PHYSICAL VESSEL on (ii) a PHYSICAL earth to (iii) display Him PHYSICALLY, and to (iv) rule the earth PHYSICALLY. Adam damaged his BODY irreparably. He poisoned it beyond recovery. So God lets us die (Gen.3:22). But He has not given up His plan. And woe unto the fool who thinks that Satan can thwart God. God has set the ground for a JUDICIALLY LEGAL RECOVERY OF EVERY MAN'S BODY. Whether they go to the Lake of Fire or not for their TRESPASSES is another thing, but concerning the reason for human physical death, God has dealt with it legally and judicially.

    So we end with what body do we have in resurrection. It is described in 1st Corinthians 15:35-49. I will let it speak for itself and only comment on TWO things
    1. The differing glories. The Greek word we render "glory" means "made apparent". When Christ is walking the dusty roads of Galilee, veiled in His body, it is not "apparent" Who He is. But at the top of the Mount of Transfiguration it is "made apparent" Who He is. As He hung on the cross it was not "made apparent" Who He was but in His resurrection it is "made apparent" that all sin and sins have been put away. Thus, He is glorified in resurrection. When He appears to John in Revelation Chapter 1, it is further "made apparent" that He is NOT HAPPY with His Church - and John, the one who once lay on His breast, nearly dies of fright. And finally, at the White Throne it is made fully "apparent" Who He really is and heaven and earth must flee from His countenance. So when scripture talks of the differing "glories" in this section of scripture, it is not describing some kind of shining. It is telling us that EVERY MAN will be "manifested" or "made apparent" for what he is. Paul will be "made apparent" - great "glory". Moses too. But Hitler will display what he really was. This "making apparent" of Hitler will probably be nauseating, but his special glory will be manifested though it be utterly negative.
    2. The "spiritual" body. In the bible, the term "spiritual" can mean one of TWO THINGS. (1) It means that the object is spirit in substance - like the Church. It is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5). God is "spiritual" because He is a Spirit. (2) It means that it had its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit - like the gifts of 1st Corinthians 12 to 14. They are gifts that have their original in the Holy Spirit for the building of a Spiritual House. Now, when 1st Corinthians 15:44-45 says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit", IT DOES NOT MEAN SPIRIT IN SUBSTANCE. It means that the first body had its ORIGIN in the womb (natural) and the resurrection body has its ORIGIN in Christ WHO IS THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. 2nd Corinthians 5:1-2 says it is made in heaven. But the Resurrection Body itself is FLESH AND BONE. Christ was "flesh and bones" in resurrection AND He declared that He was NOT a spirit! Luke 24:39 says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." And the Church, though it is a "spiritual House", is made of PHYSICAL things - OUR BODIES. 1st Corinthians 6:15 says; "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid", and Ephesians 5:30 says, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."

    Some may say; "Christ is special in resurrection. His resurrection, body and Person will be different". But scripture says otherwise. Romans 6:4-5 says;

    4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


    And 1st John 3:2 says; "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

    Let us not be superstitious. Resurrection is one of the grand tenets of the Bible. Death is the last and bitter enemy of God and man. Any of us who have stood at a graveside will confirm this. God's recovery of His plan unfolds in the Bible with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:6). It continues with the transformation of the soul by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18), and it is completed by being raised from the dead by this same Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). Our whole restoration to God's original plan is by the Holy Spirit - BUT the plan was ... PHYSICAL men.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Walls; I read your post above very carefully and have no disagreement with it.
    God did make the earth and all the universe for mankind to inhabit, we will never leave it.


    So where our beliefs diverge is whether there will be a 'rapture' of God's faithful people and therefore a change into a Spiritual body for them.
    I just do not see anything like that anywhere, the only verse that could be construed as a 'rapture' is 1 Thess 4:17, where Jesus has departed from heaven and He gathers His own to Him, to be His Priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10 Exactly as described in Mathew 24:30-31 A transportation from point A to point B, as happened to Philip, Acts 8:39

    The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is therefore a false teaching and should be shunned and discarded by all Bible believers.
    The prime requirement of God for His people is FAITH in His saving power. To be sure of that in us, He will test us; 1 Peter 4:12, and we must stand firm, whatever happens, until the end.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Walls; I read your post above very carefully and have no disagreement with it.
    God did make the earth and all the universe for mankind to inhabit, we will never leave it.


    So where our beliefs diverge is whether there will be a 'rapture' of God's faithful people and therefore a change into a Spiritual body for them.
    I just do not see anything like that anywhere, the only verse that could be construed as a 'rapture' is 1 Thess 4:17, where Jesus has departed from heaven and He gathers His own to Him, to be His Priests and co-rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10 Exactly as described in Mathew 24:30-31 A transportation from point A to point B, as happened to Philip, Acts 8:39

    The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is therefore a false teaching and should be shunned and discarded by all Bible believers.
    The prime requirement of God for His people is FAITH in His saving power. To be sure of that in us, He will test us; 1 Peter 4:12, and we must stand firm, whatever happens, until the end.
    Thank you for your answer. I am aware of our differences. I would just like to say that (i) if you are heartily convinced of your position, I respect that, and (ii) no man alive has ALL truth, so, though we fight hard for our views, we, I, must at all times know that I have got some things wrong. I like to think that while we disagree so vehemently on some issues, that we could break bread together if we lived close. Go well bro.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your answer. Hoping that you will be in agreement, I will not counter your sentences one by one as this runs the risk of getting far off the track. Instead, in view of what you have we discuss, I wish to lay forth my understanding of resurrection - of course, documented with scripture. I will try to set it forth fact upon fact so that not long discussions are needed. You can attack a fact as soon as you find it untrue.

    Man is made of three parts, (i) soil which constitutes his BODY, (ii) spirit - the vitalizing breath of God, and (iii) SOUL - the psychological part of man (coming from the Greek "psuche") which is constituted by his mind, emotions and will (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). I would like to maintain what James 2:26 says - that the spirit is the vitalizing part and when the spirit of man departs, or, as scripture often says, "he gives UP the ghost". I would also like to maintain that this "breath of God" is not His eternal and divine LIFE because the cattle have this "breath" too (Eccl.3:19). The rebirth of John 3:3-6 is an EXTRA birth, and it is only to be had by FAITH in Jesus (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15).

    When Adam ate of the forbidden and deathly Tree, the death that ensued is PHYSICAL BODILY DEATH. To be sure of this we can examine the destiny of the other two parts of man.
    1. The human spirit cannot die. There is no record of any spirit ever dying, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, we have established that both God and angles, who are spirits, never die. At human physical death the spirit of man leaves his body and returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7, Lk.23:46). Thus, the term, or concept of "spiritual death" is neither found in scripture nor is alluded to.
    2. The SOUL of man can die but the death of the soul is not a cessation of awareness and activity like the body. The death of the soul is described by the Bible as acute and extreme "lack of well-being". This is the meaning of the Greek word we render "perdition" (Vine). So in Gethsemane our Lord "... saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... ." (Matt.26:38, Mk.14:34). In Matthew 10:28 we what Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire is; "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA."
    3. The BODY, made of the elements of earth, is man's VESSEL. It is a "house" or "Tabernacle" (2nd Cor.5:1) and it houses the soul and the spirit. Man is built like the Temple, the body being the Outer Court, the soul being the Holy Place and the spirit being the Holy of Holies. It has TWO LIVES - or TWO sustaining elements. Its PHYSICAL life is in the blood (Gen.9:4, etc.), and its VITALITY comes from the spirit (Jas.2:26).

    At death, the spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:12:7), the soul goes to the place under the earth called Hades, and the spirit returns to God.

    RESURRECTION in the Greek - "anistasis" means "to stand up". It comes from the root word "anistemi" - "to stand upright". RESURRECTION ONLY PERTAINS TO THE BODY. The soul RISES from under the earth, but the body RISES FROM the earth because as soon as it blood and/or spirit is gone, it starts to decay back to th elements of the earth. Since the SOUL has another type of death, and the spirit of man cannot die - DEATH and RESURRECTION PERTAIN TO THE BODY.

    Romans 6:23 says; "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Notice the word "sin" is in the singular. The Bible make a difference between "sin" (singular) and "sins" or "trespasses" (plural). The cause of human physical death is not our trespasses (plural). It is that poisonous nature that Adam took in when he ate of the deathly tree. The "sin" NATURE of Adam is the cause of death. Romans 5:12 tells us; "Wherefore, as by one man sin (singular) entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That is why a baby that has not sinned can also die. Every man inherits Adam's nature because he comes OUT OF Adam.

    This is important because God, Who is LIFE, is diametrically opposed to death. It is an eyesore in His realm. It is called His "last ENEMY" in 1st Corinthians 15:26. So when our Lord Jesus went to the cross as a Judicial Substitute for man, He died for:-
    1. The SIN (singular) of the world (Jn.1:29)
    2. The SINS (plural) of the world (1st Jn.2:2).

    In regard to resurrection point #1 is CRUCIAL. Christ dying for the SIN (singular) of the world ALLOWS GOD TO OVERTURN DEATH since it is this "sin-Nature" that causes it. Man is born. Man dies. It is the portion of every man who ever came from Adam (1st Cor.15:22). Whether a baby who has not trespassed, Hitler who made himself an enemy of Abraham's seed - Israel, or Paul the Apostle - human physical death is our portion. And RESURRECTION is the PORTION of every man (including the worst sinners) BECAUSE IN RESURRECTING CHRIST, GOD CONFIRMED THAT THE SIN-NATURE WAS DEALT WITH BY CHRIST'S DEATH. If one little bit of the sin-Nature was left, Christ could not have been resurrected - AND NOR COULD ANY MAN BE RESURRECTED. Conversely, if God resurrects any man, TO REVERSE IT WOULD BE SAYING THAT CHRIST'S DEATH WAS INADEQUATE. Thus we have Hebrews 9:27 which requires death only once for every man.

    That is the main reason why a man cannot die twice. The recovering of a man's body from the dust, coupled with his spirit returning from God and his soul from beneath the earth, is based solely upon Christ's death. If a little part of "sin" remained, neither Christ nor any other man could resurrected, AND if no little part of "sin" remains the there is is NO GROUNDS FOR DEATH. If God did not raise Christ, that would have meant that His death was JUDICIALLY not enough for Adam's transgression that has been passed to all men. No man could have been raised. If Christ's death is JUDICIALLY enough, then no man can die again once he has come into the enjoyment of Christ's work.

    In closing, may I remark on why there is confusion in Christianity about resurrection. The first and biggest hindrance to a correct understanding of it is that most Christians believe the Roman Catholic myth that we die and go to heaven. What then is the resurrection for if we go to heaven? To many Christians it thus becomes an inconvenience. But worse than this is the fact that such a doctrine is utterly demeaning of God. It means that He made man with a plan in mind, and Satan was able to spoil that plan. God made man FROM the earth, to be nourished BY the earth, FOR subduing and ruling the earth. God's whole plan revolves around man being (i) a PHYSICAL VESSEL on (ii) a PHYSICAL earth to (iii) display Him PHYSICALLY, and to (iv) rule the earth PHYSICALLY. Adam damaged his BODY irreparably. He poisoned it beyond recovery. So God lets us die (Gen.3:22). But He has not given up His plan. And woe unto the fool who thinks that Satan can thwart God. God has set the ground for a JUDICIALLY LEGAL RECOVERY OF EVERY MAN'S BODY. Whether they go to the Lake of Fire or not for their TRESPASSES is another thing, but concerning the reason for human physical death, God has dealt with it legally and judicially.

    So we end with what body do we have in resurrection. It is described in 1st Corinthians 15:35-49. I will let it speak for itself and only comment on TWO things
    1. The differing glories. The Greek word we render "glory" means "made apparent". When Christ is walking the dusty roads of Galilee, veiled in His body, it is not "apparent" Who He is. But at the top of the Mount of Transfiguration it is "made apparent" Who He is. As He hung on the cross it was not "made apparent" Who He was but in His resurrection it is "made apparent" that all sin and sins have been put away. Thus, He is glorified in resurrection. When He appears to John in Revelation Chapter 1, it is further "made apparent" that He is NOT HAPPY with His Church - and John, the one who once lay on His breast, nearly dies of fright. And finally, at the White Throne it is made fully "apparent" Who He really is and heaven and earth must flee from His countenance. So when scripture talks of the differing "glories" in this section of scripture, it is not describing some kind of shining. It is telling us that EVERY MAN will be "manifested" or "made apparent" for what he is. Paul will be "made apparent" - great "glory". Moses too. But Hitler will display what he really was. This "making apparent" of Hitler will probably be nauseating, but his special glory will be manifested though it be utterly negative.
    2. The "spiritual" body. In the bible, the term "spiritual" can mean one of TWO THINGS. (1) It means that the object is spirit in substance - like the Church. It is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5). God is "spiritual" because He is a Spirit. (2) It means that it had its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit - like the gifts of 1st Corinthians 12 to 14. They are gifts that have their original in the Holy Spirit for the building of a Spiritual House. Now, when 1st Corinthians 15:44-45 says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit", IT DOES NOT MEAN SPIRIT IN SUBSTANCE. It means that the first body had its ORIGIN in the womb (natural) and the resurrection body has its ORIGIN in Christ WHO IS THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT. 2nd Corinthians 5:1-2 says it is made in heaven. But the Resurrection Body itself is FLESH AND BONE. Christ was "flesh and bones" in resurrection AND He declared that He was NOT a spirit! Luke 24:39 says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." And the Church, though it is a "spiritual House", is made of PHYSICAL things - OUR BODIES. 1st Corinthians 6:15 says; "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid", and Ephesians 5:30 says, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."

    Some may say; "Christ is special in resurrection. His resurrection, body and Person will be different". But scripture says otherwise. Romans 6:4-5 says;

    4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


    And 1st John 3:2 says; "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

    Let us not be superstitious. Resurrection is one of the grand tenets of the Bible. Death is the last and bitter enemy of God and man. Any of us who have stood at a graveside will confirm this. God's recovery of His plan unfolds in the Bible with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:6). It continues with the transformation of the soul by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18), and it is completed by being raised from the dead by this same Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). Our whole restoration to God's original plan is by the Holy Spirit - BUT the plan was ... PHYSICAL men.
    It is not a matter of attack, but pointing out the errors in your view and again there are quite some in the huge epistle above.

    First the rebirth of John makes of the natural man a spiritual man by opening the spiritual things to his mind. The word « birth » means the beginning of new life. Since man already is born once literally, the rebirth — or being born from above — is the beginning of spiritual life, before this act of God he is spiritually dead. You are mistaken about this as well, Scripture says in 1 John 5:1 « Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God ... », so to believe in Christ God has to give us birth from above first.

    The difference between « sin » and « sins » should be clear to any Bible student, I'm not sure why you bring it up, but it shows you are missing the point with this as well. I've said it before, if by ONE man sin came into the world, it is not the eating of the apple by TWO men, they were at that time already in a fallen state as we know from 1 John 2:16 « For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (the tree was good for food), and the lust of the eyes (the tree was pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (a tree to be desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world ». That is why rebirth is essential.

    You're trying to tell me that man can only die once and not twice and neglect the Scripture I've provided, where you are wrong is that men only is resurrected once to life, but can die — as I've showed you with Scripture — more then once, even though these are the exceptions. Another thing about Heb. 9:27 is the « judgment », Greek: krisis. John 5:24 says « Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (krisis); but is passed from death unto life ». Heb. 9:27 is not about all, but about a group. This is clear from the context, we are not all judged just as Christ was offered for the sins of many v. 28.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    It is not a matter of attack, but pointing out the errors in your view and again there are quite some in the huge epistle above.

    First the rebirth of John makes of the natural man a spiritual man by opening the spiritual things to his mind. The word « birth » means the beginning of new life. Since man already is born once literally, the rebirth — or being born from above — is the beginning of spiritual life, before this act of God he is spiritually dead. You are mistaken about this as well, Scripture says in 1 John 5:1 « Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God ... », so to believe in Christ God has to give us birth from above first.

    The difference between « sin » and « sins » should be clear to any Bible student, I'm not sure why you bring it up, but it shows you are missing the point with this as well. I've said it before, if by ONE man sin came into the world, it is not the eating of the apple by TWO men, they were at that time already in a fallen state as we know from 1 John 2:16 « For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (the tree was good for food), and the lust of the eyes (the tree was pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (a tree to be desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world ». That is why rebirth is essential.

    You're trying to tell me that man can only die once and not twice and neglect the Scripture I've provided, where you are wrong is that men only is resurrected once to life, but can die — as I've showed you with Scripture — more then once, even though these are the exceptions. Another thing about Heb. 9:27 is the « judgment », Greek: krisis. John 5:24 says « Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (krisis); but is passed from death unto life ». Heb. 9:27 is not about all, but about a group. This is clear from the context, we are not all judged just as Christ was offered for the sins of many v. 28.

    Aristarkos
    Thank you for the answer.
    You have yet to show a man who died more than once from scripture. It is no good assuming. You need to point out the person and the narrative.
    For a man who refers often to the Greek, you have taken the word "world" in 1st John 2:16 completely incorrectly. It is "kosmos" which means "the adornment", or "the orderly arrangement of things". Before the fall of Adam and Eve there was one "order of arrangement" and after the fall, another "orderly arrangement". It is this SECOND ONE that is opposed to God for it seeks to satisfy man outside of God. You put the cart before the horse. Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"? How could there have sin before if it entered by man?

    And if you say that, quote;

    they were at that time already in a fallen state as we know from 1 John 2:16
    ... you promote a doctrine that God made Adam in sin and created him "spiritually dead". And in this you attribute sin to God because scripture says in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:1;
    • "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them",
    • "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"

    I think you must revise your understanding. The world was created in good order (Isa.45:18) and man was not only created in good order BUT ALSO in the image and likeness of GOD! And you say sin was already in man and he was spiritually dead???

    Despite my plea, you have yet to show the term "spiritually dead" in the whole Bible, or that a spirit can die. Added to this, if man was "spiritually dead" BEFORE THE FALL, HOW AND WHEN was he spiritually ALIVE so that he could die, and HOW AND WHEN did his spirit die?

    The wording of Hebrews 9:27 is clear and unambiguous. The grammar forbids exceptions. And, as you have shown by not being able to bring an exception, there are none. It reads, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." We do not know how long Cain lived, but men in general lived over 900 years at this time. That is, all the DEAD up to Noah's flood must wait till the White Throne for JUDGMENT. And judgment is the first thing after death. So when will they live and die and be judged AGAIN? After the White Throne Judgment? But I thought there is no death after this for death, the last enemy, IS CONQUERED by resurrection?

    Let the reader judge.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for the answer.
    You have yet to show a man who died more than once from scripture. It is no good assuming. You need to point out the person and the narrative.
    For a man who refers often to the Greek, you have taken the word "world" in 1st John 2:16 completely incorrectly. It is "kosmos" which means "the adornment", or "the orderly arrangement of things". Before the fall of Adam and Eve there was one "order of arrangement" and after the fall, another "orderly arrangement". It is this SECOND ONE that is opposed to God for it seeks to satisfy man outside of God. You put the cart before the horse. Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"? How could there have sin before if it entered by man?

    And if you say that, quote;



    ... you promote a doctrine that God made Adam in sin and created him "spiritually dead". And in this you attribute sin to God because scripture says in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:1;
    • "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them",
    • "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"

    I think you must revise your understanding. The world was created in good order (Isa.45:18) and man was not only created in good order BUT ALSO in the image and likeness of GOD! And you say sin was already in man and he was spiritually dead???

    Despite my plea, you have yet to show the term "spiritually dead" in the whole Bible, or that a spirit can die. Added to this, if man was "spiritually dead" BEFORE THE FALL, HOW AND WHEN was he spiritually ALIVE so that he could die, and HOW AND WHEN did his spirit die?

    The wording of Hebrews 9:27 is clear and unambiguous. The grammar forbids exceptions. And, as you have shown by not being able to bring an exception, there are none. It reads, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." We do not know how long Cain lived, but men in general lived over 900 years at this time. That is, all the DEAD up to Noah's flood must wait till the White Throne for JUDGMENT. And judgment is the first thing after death. So when will they live and die and be judged AGAIN? After the White Throne Judgment? But I thought there is no death after this for death, the last enemy, IS CONQUERED by resurrection?

    Let the reader judge.
    That would be the best Walls.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Children of the Promise:
    Romans 9 to 11 proves the broken off branches who remain in unbelief are not true Israelites:
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named”.
    This means that it is not the ethnic children who are God’s people, but the children of the promise, who have faith in Him, who are counted as Abrahams descendants.
    The statement “For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” clearly denotes that some are ethnic Israel, the remnant of verse 29. But the rest are shown as those who sought righteousness by attempting to keep the Law and are therefore excluded from being true Israelites.

    As indeed He says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.’
    Hosea prophesied of the coming time the descendants of the ten northern tribes, the nation of Israel/Ephraim, would be restored as God’s covenant people once more, which is precisely what the inauguration of the New Covenant accomplishes.

    Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…
    The inauguration of the new covenant was accomplished by the blood of Christ, which also released Judah and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes from the marriage contract of the Old Covenant. Romans 7:1-4
    While Judah, for the most part, rejected Christ, Peter testifies of his ordained success with the elect exiles of the dispersion, Ephraim/Israel.
    1 Peter1:1-12, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia and Bithynia, chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

    Paul, the Apostle to the people called Gentiles, but who are actually the scattered dispersion of Israel, John 7:35, reveals they are fellow heirs in Christ, part of the biological descendants of Abraham. The offspring or ‘seed’, by which the gentiles were prophesied to be blessed, was and is being fulfilled by the descendants of Ephraim/Israel of which Zechariah prophesied:
    Zechariah 10:7-12 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yes, their children shall see it, and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the Lord. I will call for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall rear their children, then march into and occupy the holy land.
    What happened: God called Ephraim and gathered them in Christ and then scattered them in the world to proclaim the Gospel to the nations, which Judah was obviously not part of. The plan for Ephraim is the source of the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Proved by how the Western peoples have sent out missionaries and translated the Bible into most languages.

    Isaiah 49:1-26 Listen to Me you peoples far distant,...... But Zion [the Land] said: The Lord has forsaken me, and my Lord has forgotten me…. The children which you will have, after you have lost the former ones, shall say to you: This place is too small for us, give us more space to dwell . Then you will say to yourself: Who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am alone and desolate, and where have they come from? Thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders, for they shall not be ashamed that have faith in Me.
    Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come unto mount Zion......

    We Christians are the latter children of Zion, of Ephraim, the true Israelites.

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