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Thread: Jesus is the Israel of God

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    Jesus is the Israel of God

    Jesus is the Israel of God...and we Christians are the Israelites of God.
    It is the premise of this article that Jesus Christ is the true Israel of God and that everyone who is united to Him through faith becomes, by virtue of that union, an Israelite of God.
    This means that it is error to look for, expect, hope for or desire a reconstitution of an ethnic Israel in the future. The New Covenant church is not something which God instituted until he could recreate a national people in Palestine, but rather, God only had a national people temporarily (from Moses to Christ) as a prelude to and foreshadowing of the creation of the New Covenant in which the ethnic distinctions which existed under Moses were fulfilled and abolished. Ephesians 2.11-22; Colossians 2:8 & 3:11

    Matthew 2:14-15....Joseph takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt.....
    In the Bible, the expression “out of Egypt” occurs more than 140 times. It is one of the defining facts of the existence of national Israel. When God gave the Law he said, “I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.” They were a redeemed people belonging to their Savior.
    Thus it most significant when Matthew 2:15 quotes Hosea 11:1
    That inspired interpretation of the Scriptures confirms it is our Lord Jesus and His followers, not the temporary, national, peoples; who is now the true Israel of God. Indeed it is not too much to say that the only reason God orchestrated the first Exodus was so that we might know that Jesus is the true Son of God and that all Christians are God’s Israelites, regardless of ethnicity. Revelation 5:10

    As well, the Apostle Paul argues very clearly that the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.
    Galatians 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
    Paul explains what he means. The promises given to Abraham were promises to be fulfilled by Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20
    They were given before Moses and they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is Abraham’s true Son, he is “the seed” promised to Abraham and we Christians are the people of many nations, his descendants by faith. Genesis 17:6-7

    The New Covenant between God and His faithful Christian people, is the fulfillment and renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant was the fulfillment and renewal of the gracious covenant made with Adam after the fall.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    As it occurs 140 times and yet in all of those it speaks of the ethnic group known as Israelites, I would say you are wrong.
    The part in Hosea 11:1 is the second part which says "out of Egypt I called my son."
    Now this IS what God did for the Israelites, and if you read Hosea 11:2 the you KNOW it is speaking about the Israelites and NOT Jesus and NOT the Church, for those people went away.
    Jesus is God's son and was called out of Egypt, he was also a descendant of Israel, so this was ALL true of Him, but not of us.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As it occurs 140 times and yet in all of those it speaks of the ethnic group known as Israelites, I would say you are wrong.
    The part in Hosea 11:1 is the second part which says "out of Egypt I called my son."
    Now this IS what God did for the Israelites, and if you read Hosea 11:2 the you KNOW it is speaking about the Israelites and NOT Jesus and NOT the Church, for those people went away.
    Jesus is God's son and was called out of Egypt, he was also a descendant of Israel, so this was ALL true of Him, but not of us.
    So do you believe that the current citizens of the Jewish nation of Israel, are the real Israelites of God?
    We Christians are ....1 Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    Revelation 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Plenty more proofs that it is only the righteous believers who are God's people, Abrahams descendants by our faith and ethnicity is of no value or consequence.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    So do you believe that the current citizens of the Jewish nation of Israel, are the real Israelites of God?
    We Christians are ....1 Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    Revelation 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    Plenty more proofs that it is only the righteous believers who are God's people, Abrahams descendants by our faith and ethnicity is of no value or consequence.
    They are indeed Israelites.
    We however are a royal priesthood, not as Israelites, but as adopted sons of the living God.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    They are indeed Israelites.
    We however are a royal priesthood, not as Israelites, but as adopted sons of the living God.
    The Jews say they are Israel. About the same as anyone saying they come from Mars. No proofs whatsoever.
    In face, with the population of the Jewish State of Israel; it can be proved from the historical record, that most of their origins are nothing to do with the tribe of Judah.

    Jesus has the last Word; Those who call themselves Jews, belong to the synagogue of Satan.... Revelation 3:9
    The Lord will destroy them on His Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13, +

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Jews say they are Israel. About the same as anyone saying they come from Mars. No proofs whatsoever.
    Wow! You sound bitter.

    In face, with the population of the Jewish State of Israel; it can be proved from the historical record, that most of their origins are nothing to do with the tribe of Judah.
    Really, you mean like your proof that the Scots are the tribe of Dan?

    Jesus has the last Word; Those who call themselves Jews, belong to the synagogue of Satan.... Revelation 3:9
    The Lord will destroy them on His Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13, +
    Don't misquote Jesus, that is a BAD thing to do.
    Rev 3:9* Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

    As to who Jesus will destroy, it is not limited to Jews who reject Him, but people from every nation, and He will winnow from the church those who claim to be His, but are not.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus is the Israel of God...and we Christians are the Israelites of God.
    It is the premise of this article that Jesus Christ is the true Israel of God and that everyone who is united to Him through faith becomes, by virtue of that union, an Israelite of God.
    This means that it is error to look for, expect, hope for or desire a reconstitution of an ethnic Israel in the future. The New Covenant church is not something which God instituted until he could recreate a national people in Palestine, but rather, God only had a national people temporarily (from Moses to Christ) as a prelude to and foreshadowing of the creation of the New Covenant in which the ethnic distinctions which existed under Moses were fulfilled and abolished. Ephesians 2.11-22; Colossians 2:8 & 3:11

    Matthew 2:14-15....Joseph takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt.....
    In the Bible, the expression “out of Egypt” occurs more than 140 times. It is one of the defining facts of the existence of national Israel. When God gave the Law he said, “I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.” They were a redeemed people belonging to their Savior.
    Thus it most significant when Matthew 2:15 quotes Hosea 11:1
    That inspired interpretation of the Scriptures confirms it is our Lord Jesus and His followers, not the temporary, national, peoples; who is now the true Israel of God. Indeed it is not too much to say that the only reason God orchestrated the first Exodus was so that we might know that Jesus is the true Son of God and that all Christians are God’s Israelites, regardless of ethnicity. Revelation 5:10

    As well, the Apostle Paul argues very clearly that the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.
    Galatians 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
    Paul explains what he means. The promises given to Abraham were promises to be fulfilled by Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20
    They were given before Moses and they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is Abraham’s true Son, he is “the seed” promised to Abraham and we Christians are the people of many nations, his descendants by faith. Genesis 17:6-7

    The New Covenant between God and His faithful Christian people, is the fulfillment and renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant was the fulfillment and renewal of the gracious covenant made with Adam after the fall.
    You have woefully misrepresented the scriptures you gave.
    1. Israelites proceed from Israel. They are his seed. Israel had fleshly intercourse with FOUR women who produced Israel. Christians proceed from the Holy Spirit and are thus, "... born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13)
    2. Everyone who comes from Israel is an Israelite. Everyone who proceeds from Christ is a Christian. The ORIGIN settles everything.
    3. The "fathers" of Israel came out of Egypt. Christians, who make up the New Man were formed IN Christ OUT OF TWO (Eph.2:15) - the TWO being Israel and the Nations.
    4. The New Covenant is one of LAW - NOT PROMISE. It replaces the Covenant of LAW made at Sinai 430 years after the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham

    • The gospels show Israel opposing Jesus and murdering Him - God's people who had the Law and were descendants of Jacob verses the Descendant of the Holy Spirit
    • Acts shows Israel persecuting the Church making TWO different parties
    • Romans Chapters show (i) Israel established under sin and sins just as much as the "uncircumcision" - TWO parties, (ii) Israel cut off from the Olive Tree and the Church grafted in, and (iii) Israel again grafted in at a later date. There must be TWO parties for that
    • 1st Corinthians 10 has ONE nation going through temptation so that ANOTHER can learn by it - making TWO parties
    • 2nd Corinthians 3 has Moses still read today, albeit with a veil and in bondage. But another party has LIBERTY
    • Galatians constantly, and consistently differentiates between Israel and the Church. They are are antagonists.
    • Revelation reveals New Jerusalem with the Church as Walls and Israel as Gates - TWO parties

    Your mingling of the TWO discards the immensely different ORIGINS. Your mingling of the TWO defies ALL scripture on the matter. Your mingling of the TWO different parties demeans the birth by the Holy Spirit. Your mingling of CERTAIN of the one denies the ORIGIN of the other.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You have woefully misrepresented the scriptures you gave.
    1. Israelites proceed from Israel. They are his seed. Israel had fleshly intercourse with FOUR women who produced Israel. Christians proceed from the Holy Spirit and are thus, "... born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13)
    2. Everyone who comes from Israel is an Israelite. Everyone who proceeds from Christ is a Christian. The ORIGIN settles everything.
    3. The "fathers" of Israel came out of Egypt. Christians, who make up the New Man were formed IN Christ OUT OF TWO (Eph.2:15) - the TWO being Israel and the Nations.
    4. The New Covenant is one of LAW - NOT PROMISE. It replaces the Covenant of LAW made at Sinai 430 years after the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham

    • The gospels show Israel opposing Jesus and murdering Him - God's people who had the Law and were descendants of Jacob verses the Descendant of the Holy Spirit
    • Acts shows Israel persecuting the Church making TWO different parties
    • Romans Chapters show (i) Israel established under sin and sins just as much as the "uncircumcision" - TWO parties, (ii) Israel cut off from the Olive Tree and the Church grafted in, and (iii) Israel again grafted in at a later date. There must be TWO parties for that
    • 1st Corinthians 10 has ONE nation going through temptation so that ANOTHER can learn by it - making TWO parties
    • 2nd Corinthians 3 has Moses still read today, albeit with a veil and in bondage. But another party has LIBERTY
    • Galatians constantly, and consistently differentiates between Israel and the Church. They are are antagonists.
    • Revelation reveals New Jerusalem with the Church as Walls and Israel as Gates - TWO parties

    Your mingling of the TWO discards the immensely different ORIGINS. Your mingling of the TWO defies ALL scripture on the matter. Your mingling of the TWO different parties demeans the birth by the Holy Spirit. Your mingling of CERTAIN of the one denies the ORIGIN of the other.
    Interesting post.

    Seems from you explanation of the top distinguishing who is Israel by blood from Jacob and his 4 wives, vs who are Christians is interesting.

    So based on that would you say most modern Israeli’s and the country itself, are not Israel or Israelites, since they cannot be traced to Jacob?

    Also ‘christian’...what does that term mean to you in the eternal everlasting picture of humanity?

    How do you reconcile the eternal state and this term with the population of it?

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Inter

    Interesting post.

    Seems from you explanation of the top distinguishing who is Israel by blood from Jacob and his 4 wives, vs who are Christians is interesting.

    So based on that would you say most modern Israeli’s and the country itself, are not Israel or Israelites, since they cannot be traced to Jacob?
    It does not matter if we cannot trace the lineage of anyone claiming to be an Israelite. It matters only that God knows. God made a promise to Abraham. God is well bale to keep a log on who generated who down through the centuries. And what is comforting is that God made this Promise with an oath (Heb.6:13-18). The God of the universe, Who made the Promise, knows every insemination by one of Jacob's seed, and He has promised, via the prophets to bring every single offspring of Jacob's seed into the Good Land one day (e.g. Ezekiel 11:17, 34:13, 36:24, 37:21)

    Also ‘christian’...what does that term mean to you in the eternal everlasting picture of humanity?
    The Biblical term "Christian" starts in Acts 11:26. It is a name given to those who assemble in Christ's Name. This definition is good enough for me. It denotes those who have believed in Christ and called upon His Name (Rom.10:9, 1st Co.12:3). And to build up His Body to maturity our Lord and Head of this ASSEMBLY has given gifts that function in an Assembly. 1 Corinthians 14:26 says; "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." And so this GATHERING of the CALLED-OUT ONES - the Ekklesia, are a gathering of people taken out of Israel and out of the Nations who have been forgiven sin and sins and infused with God's divine Life. Scripture calls them "the New Man". THeir destiny is as follows;
    1. To be ultimately in the image and Likeness of Christ (Rom.8:29)
    2. To be the House of the Living God on earth (1st Tim.3:15)
    3. To be God's testimony on earth (Eph.2:7)
    4. To rule the earth and sky and all that is in them
    5. To be a Companion "up to the standard" of Jesus Christ - a Bride (Eph.5:23-32)


    How do you reconcile the eternal state and this term with the population of it?
    Your question was difficult for me to understand. It is probably my fault. I will answer within the context of the thread.

    The Thread is about Israel, so I will give their destiny. Israel were not born by the holy Spirit for they did not believe. But they possess PROMISES by God. Thus, their destiny is:
    • To have their sin and sins put away (Mic.7:19)
    • To have all dead Israelites who ever lived and were circumcised, resurrected (Dan.12:2)
    • To have these resurrected ones, PLUS all the living Israelites at the time of our Lord's Coming, raptured back to their Land (Ezekiel 37; Matt.24:31)
    • To live in peace and prosperity in their Promised Land for ever (Gen.17:8, 48:4)
    • To have no natural enemies left to threaten them
    • To serve the Physical Temple of Ezekiel which is the physical House of the Man Jesus in Jerusalem
    • To regulate the cleanliness of the Nations who have to come up annually and worship Emmanuel in Jerusalem (Isa.2:2; Zech.14:16)
    • To be the Leading Nation among nations

    A short word on the Nations is also in order. They neither believed nor have Covenants with God except that of the Rainbow. But part of God's promises to Abraham was that in Christ "all the families of the earth will be blessed". Thus;
    1. The Nations will be subdued and subjugated by Christ
    2. The Nations will be ruled by Christ and His co-kings out of the Church
    3. The Nations will live with equity, justice and prosperity. Criminals will be immediately, summarily and commensurately dealt with
    4. The Nations will be required to pay homage to Jesus (Ps.72:11; Isa.45:23; Rom.14:11; Phil.2:10)
    5. Those of the Nations who actively went against God and their consciences will be in the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:24)

    It should be more than clear that there are thus THREE peoples on earth - each with a destiny.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It does not matter if we cannot trace the lineage of anyone claiming to be an Israelite. It matters only that God knows. God made a promise to Abraham. God is well bale to keep a log on who generated who down through the centuries. And what is comforting is that God made this Promise with an oath (Heb.6:13-18). The God of the universe, Who made the Promise, knows every insemination by one of Jacob's seed, and He has promised, via the prophets to bring every single offspring of Jacob's seed into the Good Land one day (e.g. Ezekiel 11:17, 34:13, 36:24, 37:21)
    You raise alot of interesting question.

    So are you saying that everyone in the modern state named 'Israel' is a decendent of Jacob? Even though their prdogeny is unknown, God knows, and they are descended from Jacob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    The Biblical term "Christian" starts in Acts 11:26. It is a name given to those who assemble in Christ's Name. This definition is good enough for me. It denotes those who have believed in Christ and called upon His Name (Rom.10:9, 1st Co.12:3). And to build up His Body to maturity our Lord and Head of this ASSEMBLY has given gifts that function in an Assembly. 1 Corinthians 14:26 says; "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." And so this GATHERING of the CALLED-OUT ONES - the Ekklesia, are a gathering of people taken out of Israel and out of the Nations who have been forgiven sin and sins and infused with God's divine Life. Scripture calls them "the New Man". THeir destiny is as follows;
    1. To be ultimately in the image and Likeness of Christ (Rom.8:29)
    2. To be the House of the Living God on earth (1st Tim.3:15)
    3. To be God's testimony on earth (Eph.2:7)
    4. To rule the earth and sky and all that is in them
    5. To be a Companion "up to the standard" of Jesus Christ - a Bride (Eph.5:23-32)
    ok, fair enough then.

    You mention the Ekklesia.
    The Ekklesia existed before Acts 11:26 named Christians.
    The Ekklesia was an old testament term used twice in Matthew before calvary; once in Acts from the time of Moses; and numerous times in the Greek Old Testament written 300 years before Pentecost; primarily denoting the people of faith during those times.

    Different Ekklesia, or a continuation of the same Ekklesia; that would grow much larger following Pentecost with new wild members being added to the prior natural members?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your question was difficult for me to understand. It is probably my fault. I will answer within the context of the thread.

    How do you deal with Jesus, during the Old Testment period when speaking to Nicodemus long before calvary or the resurrection or pentecost; as telling Nicodemus that he should know about the spirit, and that he should be born again?

    Sounded personal between Jesus and Nicodemus as something know about and do; not something held off for later to being.




    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Thread is about Israel, so I will give their destiny. Israel were not born by the holy Spirit for they did not believe. But they possess PROMISES by God. Thus, their destiny is:
    Why do you broad-brush stroke and say Israel did not believe?
    The OT shows me many Israelites that believed.
    The gospels and Acts shows me many, many great multitudes of Israelites that believed in Jesus.

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, the Israelite leaders did not believe (save Joseph A and Nicodemus); or a segment of Israel didn't believe; while a segment of Israel did believe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To have their sin and sins put away (Mic.7:19)
    Wasn't all of the sins of any Israelite put away, when Jesus said it is finished? There are multiple NT verses telling us that if the believe, their blindness will fall off, and they will receive remission for their sins.
    Besides Jesus on the cross putting there sins away, what other way is there, or is that the only way for any many?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To have all dead Israelites who ever lived and were circumcised, resurrected (Dan.12:2)
    All humans are given the promise of resurrection. Why do you see this as a promise limited only to Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To have these resurrected ones, PLUS all the living Israelites at the time of our Lord's Coming, raptured back to their Land (Ezekiel 37; Matt.24:31)
    Where does Matt 24:31 mention rapture to land? When I read Matthew 24 and it's parallel Mark 13 passage, it says the opposite. "gather the elect from the uttermost part of the Earth to the uttermost part of heaven".
    I see no mention of land, tribal boundaries, etc mentioned in Matthew 24...where did I miss it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To live in peace and prosperity in their Promised Land for ever (Gen.17:8, 48:4)
    Isn't forever relative and limited though, when you apply it to solely the land?
    If forever was really forever, then Abrham and his kids would have never lost the promised land at any time. However, they didn't have it more than they have had it. That can't fit with forever.
    Is it possible that the promise of land was something more eternal than a street address in the land of Canaan?
    Or does the land promise not start as forever until the resurection and the final state?
    If so, does that mean they don't inherit everything, but will be restricted by the Lord?
    Will ethnic division be applied on humans into eternity future with the Israelites getting a few thousand acres or land, but everyone else inheriting the planet and the universe?
    Is this segregation of people in the eternal state a good view to expect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To have no natural enemies left to threaten them
    To serve the Physical Temple of Ezekiel which is the physical House of the Man Jesus in Jerusalem
    So when they are resurrected above, they are just resucitated, like Lazarus, back into sinful mortal bodies then? Do you believe the Isralietes will never be resurrected into immortal incorruptible bodies?
    How will mortal bodies exist forever?

    Why would you put Jesus in the Exekiel temple; when it is full of sinners and rituals that are a mockery to Jesus and His calvary sacrifice?
    Do you think Jesus is 'the prince in Israel' mentioned in Ezekiel's temple?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To regulate the cleanliness of the Nations who have to come up annually and worship Emmanuel in Jerusalem (Isa.2:2; Zech.14:16)
    So when Jesus said in John 4, that the time was now, that true believers would not worship the Lord in the temple in Samaria, or in the temple in Jerusalem; but only in spirit and truth; why did Jesus decide to rescind this practice, so later worship would once again be required in Jerusalem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To be the Leading Nation among nations

    A short word on the Nations is also in order. They neither believed nor have Covenants with God except that of the Rainbow. But part of God's promises to Abraham was that in Christ "all the families of the earth will be blessed". Thus;

    The Nations will be subdued and subjugated by Christ
    The Nations will be ruled by Christ and His co-kings out of the Church
    The Nations will live with equity, justice and prosperity. Criminals will be immediately, summarily and commensurately dealt with
    The Nations will be required to pay homage to Jesus (Ps.72:11; Isa.45:23; Rom.14:11; Phil.2:10)
    Those of the Nations who actively went against God and their consciences will be in the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:24)
    So are these of the nations who go against God when they do these activings that are immediately, and summarily and commensurately dealt with; into the LOF as these griveances occur?
    It sounds like you are saying these wicked nationders are immediately cast into the LOF as they do these acts...can you verify?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It should be more than clear that there are thus THREE peoples on earth - each with a destiny.
    So what do you make of the dozens and dozens of NT passages, that tell us there are two groups of people....those who belong to God, and those who reject God?
    Why don't the NT passages in each case, clarify there are three people groups; and not two? Seems the writers were confused.

    Why also would Jesus say this?
    "He that is not with me is against me"
    and this:
    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
    Three groups seems to raise many new questions for me.
    Are you certain that of the three groups, there really are just two groups; and two of those three can be reconciled together, just like the natural and wild olive branches are reconciled together into one lumP?

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You raise alot of interesting question.

    ...
    Thank you for your comprehensive counter. I appreciate it and the time you took. Your queries are valid. It is midnight-thirty here and I won't do you justice if I answer now. Please give me a day or two as tomorrow is a long-standing family gathering. Go well brother.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your comprehensive counter. I appreciate it and the time you took. Your queries are valid. It is midnight-thirty here and I won't do you justice if I answer now. Please give me a day or two as tomorrow is a long-standing family gathering. Go well brother.
    Not trying to ‘counter’...just raising question as they come to mind.

    Sleep well.
    Enjoy your family.

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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift of a Name:

    The identity under consideration is the title of “Israel.”
    When this name first used, it was bestowed on Jacob by God at Peniel, after he had wrestled with Him through the night and it was given to designate the patriarch’s new spiritual status: in God’s own words, “Thy name shall be no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince you have power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

    This name is utterly unique! God, wanting to purify and equip His patriarch of the future Covenant people, Himself wrestles with Jacob, giving him strength to continue and even prevail, in his desire for the blessing. Jacob’s own strength was unequal to the task, and crippled in the struggle, he received strength from God: as with the names He gives, it is; what the name implies.

    It should be clear that this is not a name to be bestowed by men, as God has created and reserved it for His own special use. It should also be clear He retains the right to strip the name from whom He will, and for people to use this name when it is not of right, is stealing from the Almighty God!

    Moses Prophesied:
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will call that person to account.
    Deuteronomy 18:18-19

    This is a warning to heed the words of those appointed to the prophetic office, and in particular of Him who is the culmination and fulfilment of that office, Jesus of Nazareth.
    Consider the destruction and exile that was brought on those, who with wicked hearts refused to “hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments… Deuteronomy 28:15
    That promised destruction is shown in: “I will call them to account… to ancient Israel and the Jewish nation after Messiah appeared among them.
    Peter, in quoting from this passage as he spoke to the people of Judah; “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:22-23

    We have seen it specifically taken away from those of the House of Judah who, in the time of Christ and the apostles, refused to “hear that Prophet,” who rejected and killed Him. Jesus said: those born into the Kingdom [of Israel] will be thrown out and many from around the world will come and sit with the Patriarchs in the Kingdom of heaven. Matthew 8:11-12
    God divided the nation, those who were His, and those who were not, even as aged Simeon prophesied over the infant Jesus in the temple.....many in Israel will stand or fall because of Him.....Luke 2:34, Isaiah 8:14-15

    From this point on, many people of Israel gathered around their King, Messiah Jesus. Those who did not were “cut off” from the people by the conquest of Judea by the Romans. The Christians were able to escape to Pella.
    Jesus Himself foretold this when He announced to the chief priests and elders of Israel, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43 Immediately prior to that statement He told them the same thing in the parable of the vineyard, there holding up a mirror to their motives and actions. Some of the priests, and a few Pharisees, did turn to Him.

    The “identity theft” by a people of a mixture of ethnicities, whose only commonality was their religion of Judaism, was and is now, amazingly supported by some in the Community of faithful Christians, God’s authentic “holy nation”.
    1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:10.

    Many Christians promote the Jewish state as God’s Israel, His chosen people, despite their blatant apostasy, atheism, LGBT approval and their continuing rejection of Jesus and they insist on it, overlooking – or avoiding –God’s decree on the matter.

    The reason they do this is because an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven of the Church’ doctrine, is the Jews remaining on earth, under Tribulation, while they sit in heaven. All a totally false teaching, that will never happen.
    It is every faithful, born again Christian, all who follow the Way of Christ, Galatians 6:14-16 and are the Overcomers for Him, the Victorious ones over Satan, as seen in each of the seven Church’s of Revelation; who are the true Israel of God.

  14. #14
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You raise alot of interesting question.

    So are you saying that everyone in the modern state named 'Israel' is a decendent of Jacob? Even though their prdogeny is unknown, God knows, and they are descended from Jacob?

    Not quite. I am sure there are imposters there. But I spoke not of the modern State of Israel. I spoke of that "day" when our Lord has returned to earth and gathers ALL Israelites back to their Land. God, Who made provision in the Law for "strangers" who cleave to Israel, their Law and their God allows "strangers" at this time, but they are still called "strangers" and may not serve in the Temple (Isa.56:3-8; Ezek.44:29)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You mention the Ekklesia.
    The Ekklesia existed before Acts 11:26 named Christians.
    The Ekklesia was an old testament term used twice in Matthew before calvary; once in Acts from the time of Moses; and numerous times in the Greek Old Testament written 300 years before Pentecost; primarily denoting the people of faith during those times.

    Different Ekklesia, or a continuation of the same Ekklesia; that would grow much larger following Pentecost with new wild members being added to the prior natural members?
    Yes. The word "Ekklesia" means "a gathering of the called out ones". Thus it can apply to Israel before they are DISPERSED (the opposite of "gathering") (Act.7:38). It can apply to a heathen democratically elected Committee (Acts 19:32, 39, 41), and it applies to the Church of Christ. The context must decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    How do you deal with Jesus, during the Old Testment period when speaking to Nicodemus long before calvary or the resurrection or pentecost; as telling Nicodemus that he should know about the spirit, and that he should be born again?

    Sounded personal between Jesus and Nicodemus as something know about and do; not something held off for later to being.
    Nicodemus had the Tanakh and studied it every day. In it was the narrative of the Tree of Life. The implication of the Tree of Life is that a man would eat of this Tree and the fruit would ENTER him, become organically ONE with him and man would be infused with a life that he diid not yet possess. I'm not blaming Nicodemus, as I too took years to see these things, but the concept of a new life (which implies a new birth) is not new to the Old Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Why do you broad-brush stroke and say Israel did not believe?
    The OT shows me many Israelites that believed.
    The gospels and Acts shows me many, many great multitudes of Israelites that believed in Jesus.

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, the Israelite leaders did not believe (save Joseph A and Nicodemus); or a segment of Israel didn't believe; while a segment of Israel did believe.
    Let's look at the figures. At Pentecost, because of the Feast, the population of Jerusalem swelled to an estimated 2 million. But let us be generous and say 1 million. On Pentecost 3,000 Israelites believed. 3,000 of 1 million is 3 thousandths of 1%. But again let us be generous and say that in the enduing 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem a million Jews converted. Now, Israel is comprised of ten northern Tribes and their offspring of 7 centuries - dispersed throughout the world, nevertheless Israelites. Further, Israel is comprised of the 97% of Judah and Benjamin who stayed in Babylon and never returned with their offspring of 500 years - deported and now dispersed, but nevertheless Israelis. There is no way to estimate how many true Israelites (seed of Jacob whether they know it or not) have ever been born. We have an inclining because God's promise was "seed as numerous as the sand of the sea shore". It is clear that whatever percentage - 1%, 5% or even 10% of Israelite converted, the BULK of the nation remains in UNBELIEF. And those that convert are not Israelites anymore. Their history and ethnicity is wiped out by the new birth (2nd Cor.5:17).

    So we can say roughly, because we don't know the exact figures, that the NATION of Israel still exists and exist in UNBELIEF. And that whatever percentage of Israelites embrace Christ is (1) a small percent, and (2) they are no longer Israelites in God's eyes but members of the New Man IN Christ. So when the Bible talks of Israel, the NATION who REMAINS is meant. When Romans 11:32 says; "For God hath concluded them (Israel) ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all", the ex-Israelis who converted ARE NOT INCLUDED. They are no longer Israelites but a New Man IN Christ with a New Birth, New Origin and New Life. The old is wiped out.

    Might they have Israeli Passports? Sure! Can they speak Yiddish? Sure! Are they circumcised? Sure! Are their "brethren" Israelis? Yes! BUT ALL THESE PERTAIN TO THE FLESH AND THE FLESH IS DEAD FOR A CONVERT. At the end of Matthew 12 our Lord Jesus is presented with His brethren and His MOTHER - AND HE DENIES THEM! Why? Because they are not born of the Spirit like His disciples. The disciples ARE HIS NEW BRETHREN by a New Birth which annuls the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Wasn't all of the sins of any Israelite put away, when Jesus said it is finished? There are multiple NT verses telling us that if the believe, their blindness will fall off, and they will receive remission for their sins.
    Besides Jesus on the cross putting there sins away, what other way is there, or is that the only way for any many?
    I think my answer directly above this should answer this too. You say, "if they BELIEVE". But Israel DOES NOT BELIEVE and their sins are still put away. Our Lord died for the sins, NOT ONLY of the Christian, but of the Israeli AND of the Nations (1st Jn.2:2). God can apply mercy how He likes. And He can inflict retribution on whom He likes too. Christ's death is all-encompassing. It does not mean every man's sin is removed. It means that God can, without violating His righteousness, have mercy on anyone He likes. Will Hitler have his sins put away? I doubt it. But there are thousands upon thousands of cases where the circumstances of sin and sins are blurry. Only God knows them, and Christ's death gives Him the judicial right to extend mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    All humans are given the promise of resurrection. Why do you see this as a promise limited only to Israel?
    If I gave that impression, I apologize. I was talking ONLY of Israel's destiny in that paragraph and mentioned their resurrection. Of course you are correct. All men will be resurrected. But resurrection is a vital part of Israel's destiny because God promised EVERY seed of Jacob's Canaan as an "everlasting possession". That means every dead Israeli, from Jacob onward, through the good years and the bad, must live in that Land. The bulk of Jacob's seed have died. They must be resurrected in order for God to fulfill His oath.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Where does Matt 24:31 mention rapture to land? When I read Matthew 24 and it's parallel Mark 13 passage, it says the opposite. "gather the elect from the uttermost part of the Earth to the uttermost part of heaven".
    I see no mention of land, tribal boundaries, etc mentioned in Matthew 24...where did I miss it?
    If you study Matthew 24:1-31 you will see that EVERYTHING there is Jewish. The whole context, starting from the Temple, through false Christs, through Sabbaths, through Judea, through Jerusalem, through Daniel a prophet to "his people" to the Abomination of Desolation to the arrival of Christ on Mount Olives, is ALL JEWISH. The WHOLE CONTEXT is about the Jews and their Law and their Land and their Messiah. Added to this, Israel was the only Nation scattered to the "FOUR WINDS" (Jer.49:36) and the only nation to be gathered from the "four winds" (Ezek.37:9). Added to this, the literal rendering of Matthew 24:31 from Young's literal translation is, "and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof." The New King James, also literal, gives it as, "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." It is at once clear from the grammar that the "gathering" is FROM the four winds and FROM the uttermost corners of heaven. Since the "gathering" of Israel is the overturning of their "dispersion", and since the Lord Jesus is in Jerusalem, the PLACE of gathering must be Canaan, as the prophets all predict (e.g. Ezek.11.17).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Isn't forever relative and limited though, when you apply it to solely the land?
    If forever was really forever, then Abrham and his kids would have never lost the promised land at any time. However, they didn't have it more than they have had it. That can't fit with forever.
    Is it possible that the promise of land was something more eternal than a street address in the land of Canaan?
    Or does the land promise not start as forever until the resurection and the final state?
    If so, does that mean they don't inherit everything, but will be restricted by the Lord?
    Will ethnic division be applied on humans into eternity future with the Israelites getting a few thousand acres or land, but everyone else inheriting the planet and the universe?
    Is this segregation of people in the eternal state a good view to expect?
    The great compliment to Abraham from God is that he BELIEVED in resurrection. Abraham was taken by God to an elevated place and shown the physical Land of Canaan. He was promised this Land. And almost in the next breath God told him that he would die, Isaac would die, Jacob would die and three further generations would die BEFORE his seed possessed this Land (Gen.15:7-16). The Covenant of Promise will only be fully fulfilled IN RESURRECTION. The Covenant of Promise is DESIGNED to be fulfilled in resurrection. And yes. The "everlasting possession" means that Israel will never again be kicked out of their Land. The New Covenant will see to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    So when they are resurrected above, they are just resucitated, like Lazarus, back into sinful mortal bodies then? Do you believe the Isralietes will never be resurrected into immortal incorruptible bodies?
    How will mortal bodies exist forever?
    First let me maintain two things.
    1. The wages of sin is death, and this death is physical death. Resurrection pertain to physical death. It pertain ONLY to the BODY of man. 1st Corinthians 15:35 is clear: "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what BODY do they come?" Man is made of three parts, body, soul and spirit. The human spirit cannot die. At human physical death it returns to God to wait for resurrection. The death of the soul is not physical because the soul is not physical. The death of the soul is "extreme lack of well-being" (Vine). So when our Lord Jesus sweated blood in Gethsemane, He said "my SOUL is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL unto death". The death that resurrection deals with is SOLELY the physical BODY.
    2. Hebrews 9:27 says that a man can only die once. First, I believe this statement, and secondly there is not a single case in the Bible of a man dying twice. There is no evidence that Lazarus died again. Where he, and all those who have been resurrected, are, I cannot tell. But there is not a single case nor verses to make any exception to Hebrews 9:27.

    In resurrection - every resurrection - scripture says that "death is swallowed up". That is dead is REMOVED. What is different is the DIFFERING GLORIES in resurrection (1st Cor.15:35-49).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Why would you put Jesus in the Exekiel temple; when it is full of sinners and rituals that are a mockery to Jesus and His calvary sacrifice?
    Do you think Jesus is 'the prince in Israel' mentioned in Ezekiel's temple?
    The animal sacrifices did TWO things. (1) The "made atonement" for sins but did not take them away (Lev.4:20; Heb.10:4), (2) they cleansed the flesh (Heb.9:13). Revelation 20 tells us that between the resurrection of "those who are Christ's" (1st Cor.15:23) and the "rest of the dead" is 1,000 years. This 1,000 years is the first 1,000 years of an everlasting Kingdom, but certain people on earth during this Millennium will NOT be resurrected. For instance, the 144,000 out of the 12 Tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:1-8 will survive the Great Tribulation. Then Zechariah tells us in Chapter 14:16 that a huge contingent of the Nations will survive the Great Tribulation. And so, during the millennium you will have the Christians ALL resurrected, Israel PARTIALLY resurrected, and the survivors of the Nations NOT resurrected. That is, on earth during the millennium you have a contingent of Israelites, and ALL of the survivors of the Nations STILL IN THE OLD FLESH.

    Now, I am going to say this twice so there is no doubt. SIN CAN ONLY BE REMOVED BY CHRIST'S DEATH. Again - SIN CAN ONLY BE REMOVED BY CHRIST'S DEATH. But, these Israelites who are still in the old flesh, and the Nations who have to go up to Jerusalem every year to have audience with Christ (Zech.14:16) HAVE TO HAVE THEIR FLESH CLEANSED! It is NOT TO DO WITH SIN AND SINS!!! It is to do with CLEANSING. Sin and sins must be PUT AWAY, the defiled flesh MUST BE CLEANSED. And the only thing that will CLEANS THE FLESH IS ANIMAL SACRIFICE. This problem is dealt with on the new Earth when EVERY man is resurrected. But in the Millennium there will be some Jews and ALL the living of the nations, WHO NEED THEIR FLESH CLEANSED TO HAVE AUDIENCE WITH EMMANUEL in Jerusalem annually.

    For THIS PURPOSE the animal sacrifices will be carried out until all men are resurrected at the White Throne.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    So when Jesus said in John 4, that the time was now, that true believers would not worship the Lord in the temple in Samaria, or in the temple in Jerusalem; but only in spirit and truth; why did Jesus decide to rescind this practice, so later worship would once again be required in Jerusalem?
    Exactly. You inadvertently answered the question. "The TIME"! In the TIME up until Moses God had NO house on earth. From the TIME of Moses to Christ God had (i) the Tabernacle, (ii) Solomon's Temple and (iii) Zerubbabel's Temple as His House. NOW, He has the Body of Christ as His House (1st Tim.3:15) and this House stays forever. But it is a "SPIRITUAL HOUSE" to worship God A SPIRIT (1st Pet.2:5). But when our Lord Jesus returns to earth He is a PHYSICAL MAN. Where will the physical Man Jesus live while on earth in Jerusalem? In a HOUSE! And so over and over in the closing Chapters of Ezekiel this HOUSE is described. There was a TIME - a dispensation when God - a Spirit, lived in a House made with hands. Then came a TIME when He dwells in a spiritual House. Then comes a TIME when He (Emmanuel) is a Physical Being and will live in a physical House in physical Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    So what do you make of the dozens and dozens of NT passages, that tell us there are two groups of people....those who belong to God, and those who reject God?
    Why don't the NT passages in each case, clarify there are three people groups; and not two? Seems the writers were confused.

    Why also would Jesus say this?
    "He that is not with me is against me"
    and this:
    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
    Three groups seems to raise many new questions for me.
    Are you certain that of the three groups, there really are just two groups; and two of those three can be reconciled together, just like the natural and wild olive branches are reconciled together into one lumP?
    You are correct. There is a clear delineation of those who are for God and those that are against Him. You do not need to wait till the new Testament. All through the gory history of Israel alone these TWO types of people existed. Once our Lord Jesus appeared on the scene we have those who believed and those who did not. But then, among those that DON'T believe there happens to be TWO GROUPS. Supposing you are a school-teacher. In the morning you teach 10-year-olds and in the afternoon you teach final year students - all in the same school. To the 10-year-olds you make a promise to get things done. You promise them all a visit to the Dinosaur Museum if they behave well. To the final-year students you simply say that THEIR EFFORTS will decide whether they become successful money-earners or bums. The following week, the 10-year-olds have met their side of the bargain. But the final year students hear of a visit to the Dinosaur Museum and want to go with. What would be your answer. All are students. All are in the same school. What will you do?

    The answer is that you made a PROMISE to one group for a certain performance, and you only WARNED the other group of consequences of slothful studying. If you are 100% correct you will take those UNDER PROMISE to the Dinosaur Museum. You COULD take the final year students as well out of generosity. But it would not be REQUIRED because of PROMISE. So also Israel and the Nations. Israel have COVENANTS with God which the Nations do not have. And God HAS TO FULFILL HIS PROMISE. And immediately we have THREE PEOPLES ON EARTH!
    1. Those who believe and enter all the privileges that goes with FAITH - the Church
    2. Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have LEGAL ARRANGEMENTS with God - Israel
    3. Those that DON'T BELIEVE but who have NO legal arrangements with God - the Nations

    As you can see there are basically TWO GROUPS - BELIEVERS and those who DON'T BELIEVE. But in the group who DON'T BELIEVE there is a subdivision - making a total of THREE - each with a different destiny.

    I hope my answers help a bit. Read them carefully in the light of your questions. Your question on New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire I have left out. I'm not afraid to handle it, but it needs an enormous background. Because your present questions are very valid they have made the posting long - and with many varied aspects. One more long one would, in my opinion, detract fro all this above. Lets do it another day. I'm willing to bet that your questions on the above are still not exhausted.

    Go well brother.

  15. #15
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    Re: Jesus is the Israel of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift of a Name:

    The identity under consideration is the title of “Israel.”
    When this name first used, it was bestowed on Jacob by God at Peniel, after he had wrestled with Him through the night and it was given to designate the patriarch’s new spiritual status: in God’s own words, “Thy name shall be no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince you have power with God and with men, and have prevailed.

    This name is utterly unique! God, wanting to purify and equip His patriarch of the future Covenant people, Himself wrestles with Jacob, giving him strength to continue and even prevail, in his desire for the blessing. Jacob’s own strength was unequal to the task, and crippled in the struggle, he received strength from God: as with the names He gives, it is; what the name implies.

    It should be clear that this is not a name to be bestowed by men, as God has created and reserved it for His own special use. It should also be clear He retains the right to strip the name from whom He will, and for people to use this name when it is not of right, is stealing from the Almighty God!

    Moses Prophesied:
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will call that person to account.
    Deuteronomy 18:18-19

    This is a warning to heed the words of those appointed to the prophetic office, and in particular of Him who is the culmination and fulfilment of that office, Jesus of Nazareth.
    ....
    All you have said is correct. So I will only address your conclusion (in bold). Can you give an example in the bible where somebody usurped this Name Israel? In general criminology a name can be stolen. This is for the purpose of gaining the benefits attached to that name. Since God "knows who are His", can this happen to a person calling them self an Israelite? In the case of Israel, few have usurped this name. Rather Israel is HATED. FEW, if ANY, would usurp this name. And besides which, God, who watches and knows everything, will simply ignore you.

    But moving on t the next section, you introduce a scripture that has nothing to do with usurping a name. You introduce a prophecy by Moses that God would raise up his REPLACEMENT and that the things that Jesus would say would be DIFFERENT to what he, Moses, said. And so they were. The so-called Sermon on the Mount presents severe changes to the Law of Moses. What has this to do with Name Stealing?

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