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Thread: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

  1. #46

    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    ross3421, I have to ask. Did you come up with this theory on your own or is there some ministry or group who promotes it?

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Let's start by stating the "mother" is not Mary, agree. The woman is a city not a physical woman. The woman is Jerusalem. The whole picture of the vision including sun, moon, stars represents Zion. Now this woman flees heaven and comes down to earth (wilderness).

    Gal 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


    So my question to you is there two different woman in the same wilderness at the same time?
    I think the woman in Rev 12 best represents the "old covenant of the law" which those of the children of Israel were required to adhere to. All as a result of a promise or covenant God made with Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So your reference of Gal 4:26 is correct "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

    I generally do refer to this woman as "Zion", but that word seem to throw shock waves to many who hear it used in that regard.

    And you are correct, Mary is not that woman. Some important things to consider about the Woman. She was the mother of Jesus in a spiritual sense. Israel is indeed the root and the gentiles are the branches grafted into the root (contrary to nature). This is discussed in great detail in Romans 11.

    Until the death/resurrection of Jesus, the law was in full force. But, Christ began his ministry at age 30. Jesus spent 3-1/2 years establishing the new grace covenant and setting up the church. But the new grace covenant was not in effect until his death. Jesus fulfilled the law and obeyed every concept of the law and did not violate any aspect of those requirements of the law. This is in alignment with the reference where the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared by God that she should be fed for of a thousand two hundred and three score days (3-1/2 years). Rev 12:6

    I will leave you with something to dwell upon; those Jews and the children of Israel who were converted becoming Christians through the power of the gospel at the day of Pentecost became the seed of the Woman. Rev 12:17.

  3. #48

    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    I just watched a video by Bill Salus in which he presents some ideas which I've never heard put exactly this way before.

    He says Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17 is Vatican City and the Catholic Church. The Antichrist will tolerate her until he's acquired enough power then ultimately destroy her.

    The second beast of Revelation 13 is the False Prophet, a religious leader the Antichrist will install to replace the Pope. In this sense he'll have two horns of a lamb but speak as a dragon.

    Greater Rome will be the great city Babylon described in Revelation 18. Rome doesn't seem to fit this description of a great commercial center right now but it might in the future.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    ross3421, I have to ask. Did you come up with this theory on your own or is there some ministry or group who promotes it?
    No ministry no group...….Most of what I post is solo.

    Now I will tell you I stated out like most, reading and studying main line prophetic/theology assumptions. In the beginning I promoted most of what now I discredit. I mean I was a pre trib, millinialists, Kissinger was the AC, Russia, Rome, New York, were in the end times on and on. Concerning Babylon my first read (and I am looking at the book as we speak) The Two Babylon's. Which I have come to understand is in error.

    Though I promoted these things I had a doubt in the back of my mind, but hey how can every one be wrong??? So one weekend I was determined to study the pre-trib for myself. I had to put away the bias and the verses which were etched in my brain to do so which I will tell you is not easy. For example, The pre trib uses 1 Thess 4 to promote it's theory however the verse in fact denies it!!! As the dead in Christ needs to rise first and that does not happen 7 years in advance of the 2nd coming. But do you know how long that took to see it? I mean I reread that verse 100 times until I saw it, (when you see truth unveiled you want to shout from the roof top) ithat is how powerful your brain can be to overcome when it is filled with other bias first. I then took on the 1000 years, dan 70 weeks and one by one what I was told was a lie.

    At the same time I started as a Christian I studied a lot on cults, and so called history. Come to find out as well history is not what we read in books either. Wars, assassinations, events ect were all designed for power and money. Things did not happen by accident and had an evil backing. This really opened my eyes to deception which has spilled over into Prophetic understanding. Satan is not going to let the Genie out of the bag.

    In understanding much of Revelation, You need to adapt a "counterfeit" mentality. Meaning to figure out Satan you need to understand God and vice versa. Satan is going to counterfeit the kingdom thus what is represented in God's kingdom is the same representation in Satan's. Thus we see 4, 7, and 12 in each kingdom. 4 beasts in each, 7 mountains/heads Satan 7 eyes/horns God, 12 horns Satan (10+2 Rev 13)/ 12 tribes. So using this understanding Satan 7 will counterfeit God's thus the 7 heads in Satan's kingdom represent his church followers and the associated 7 sprits/leaders, the 12 horns represent Israel, and the 4 beasts in each represent leaders/kings. Even the number 666 is a God counterfeit.

    And of course none of this possible without the Spirit.

  5. #50

    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Appreciate the reply. I've just never heard some of your ideas and was curious where they came from from. Thanks.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I think the woman in Rev 12 best represents the "old covenant of the law"
    Would not the woman be a city? I mean we are told that a woman is such in rev 17 so why not in Rev 12?

    I generally do refer to this woman as "Zion", but that word seem to throw shock waves to many who hear it used in that regard.
    The truth normanlly does.

    She was the mother of Jesus in a spiritual sense.
    Perhaps. But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

    In scripture we see her Jerusalem giving birth to a man child, the nation of Israel.

    Until the death/resurrection of Jesus, the law was in full force. But, Christ began his ministry at age 30. Jesus spent 3-1/2 years establishing the new grace covenant and setting up the church. But the new grace covenant was not in effect until his death. Jesus fulfilled the law and obeyed every concept of the law and did not violate any aspect of those requirements of the law. This is in alignment with the reference where the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared by God that she should be fed for of a thousand two hundred and three score days (3-1/2 years). Rev 12:6
    As Jesus not being the "man child" then one correctly understand that this 3.5 period is in conjunction with the 42 months in Rev 13. Not a time of Christ but in future. So we have future time when Israel will be born as nation in one day, so is it this time when the lost tribes are found, the dry bones made to life,

    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    Ez 37
    4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
    5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
    6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
    7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
    8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
    9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
    10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post

    I will leave you with something to dwell upon; those Jews and the children of Israel who were converted becoming Christians through the power of the gospel at the day of Pentecost became the seed of the Woman. Rev 12:17.
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Her seed is the man child of verse 5 not Christians at Pentecost. The remnant of that seed/man child would be Christians but from all races not just from Israel.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    In scripture we see her Jerusalem giving birth to a man child, the nation of Israel.
    Uh, Israel existed long before Jerusalem did so there is no way Jerusalem gave birth to Israel. I'm glad you saw your way out of pretrib but you are into a whole 'nother batch of bad doctrines here.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Her seed is the man child of verse 5 not Christians at Pentecost. The remnant of that seed/man child would be Christians but from all races not just from Israel.
    Excellent point! You are absolutely correct! The seed of the woman is indeed "The man child". Thanks for keeping me straight my brother.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Would not the woman be a city? I mean we are told that a woman is such in rev 17 so why not in Rev 12?


    Perhaps. But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    [/B]
    Your question: Would not the woman be a city?

    If that's the way for you to look at it, which makes the most sense to you regarding the scriptures, then I don't know that I would argue too much to convince otherwise. But I think the best way to view it would be as the church of the old covenant. But Zion probably fits the best description. The woman is the people of Israel whom God has chosen as his people. Not merely the people, but the covenant that God made with them as his chosen people.

    Consider this; metaphorically speaking, the woman of Rev 12 is God's wife.

    Jeremiah 3:
    12) Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
    13) Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
    14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:


    Your Question: But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    Rev 2:27
    "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

    So yes! Jesus is the man child who was to rule the world with a rod of iron. And he was caught up unto God and to his throne. This is Jesus and only Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Would not the woman be a city? I mean we are told that a woman is such in rev 17 so why not in Rev 12?


    Perhaps. But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    [/B]
    Your question: Would not the woman be a city?

    If that's the way for you to look at it, which makes the most sense to you regarding the scriptures, then I don't know that I would argue too much to convince otherwise. But I think the best way to view it would be as the church of the old covenant. But Zion probably fits the best description. The woman is the people of Israel whom God has chosen as his people. Not merely the people, but the covenant that God made with them as his chosen people.

    Consider this; metaphorically speaking, the woman of Rev 12 is God's wife.

    Jeremiah 3:
    12) Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
    13) Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
    14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:


    Your Question: But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    Rev 2:27
    "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

    So yes! Jesus is the man child who was to rule the world with a rod of iron. And he was caught up unto God and to his throne. This is Jesus and only Jesus.

  11. #56
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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    No ministry no group...….Most of what I post is solo.

    Now I will tell you I stated out like most, reading and studying main line prophetic/theology assumptions. In the beginning I promoted most of what now I discredit. I mean I was a pre trib, millinialists, Kissinger was the AC, Russia, Rome, New York, were in the end times on and on. Concerning Babylon my first read (and I am looking at the book as we speak) The Two Babylon's. Which I have come to understand is in error.

    Though I promoted these things I had a doubt in the back of my mind, but hey how can every one be wrong??? So one weekend I was determined to study the pre-trib for myself. I had to put away the bias and the verses which were etched in my brain to do so which I will tell you is not easy. For example, The pre trib uses 1 Thess 4 to promote it's theory however the verse in fact denies it!!! As the dead in Christ needs to rise first and that does not happen 7 years in advance of the 2nd coming. But do you know how long that took to see it? I mean I reread that verse 100 times until I saw it, (when you see truth unveiled you want to shout from the roof top) ithat is how powerful your brain can be to overcome when it is filled with other bias first. I then took on the 1000 years, dan 70 weeks and one by one what I was told was a lie.

    At the same time I started as a Christian I studied a lot on cults, and so called history. Come to find out as well history is not what we read in books either. Wars, assassinations, events ect were all designed for power and money. Things did not happen by accident and had an evil backing. This really opened my eyes to deception which has spilled over into Prophetic understanding. Satan is not going to let the Genie out of the bag.

    In understanding much of Revelation, You need to adapt a "counterfeit" mentality. Meaning to figure out Satan you need to understand God and vice versa. Satan is going to counterfeit the kingdom thus what is represented in God's kingdom is the same representation in Satan's. Thus we see 4, 7, and 12 in each kingdom. 4 beasts in each, 7 mountains/heads Satan 7 eyes/horns God, 12 horns Satan (10+2 Rev 13)/ 12 tribes. So using this understanding Satan 7 will counterfeit God's thus the 7 heads in Satan's kingdom represent his church followers and the associated 7 sprits/leaders, the 12 horns represent Israel, and the 4 beasts in each represent leaders/kings. Even the number 666 is a God counterfeit.

    And of course none of this possible without the Spirit.
    Ross3421, I agree with ewq1938, I am also am glad you saw your way out of the pretrib, but I will forewarn, you are in the minority now.

    If you are interested in listening to a well educated minister that is not a pretrib, that takes an amil view (if that's the only label that fits for us), the consider listening to Voddie Baucham

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLXOAe1weaU&t=2674s

    He has a whole series on the book of Revelation and is doctrine is sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    No ministry no group...….Most of what I post is solo.

    Now I will tell you I stated out like most, reading and studying main line prophetic/theology assumptions. In the beginning I promoted most of what now I discredit. I mean I was a pre trib, millinialists, Kissinger was the AC, Russia, Rome, New York, were in the end times on and on. Concerning Babylon my first read (and I am looking at the book as we speak) The Two Babylon's. Which I have come to understand is in error.

    Though I promoted these things I had a doubt in the back of my mind, but hey how can every one be wrong??? So one weekend I was determined to study the pre-trib for myself. I had to put away the bias and the verses which were etched in my brain to do so which I will tell you is not easy. For example, The pre trib uses 1 Thess 4 to promote it's theory however the verse in fact denies it!!! As the dead in Christ needs to rise first and that does not happen 7 years in advance of the 2nd coming. But do you know how long that took to see it? I mean I reread that verse 100 times until I saw it, (when you see truth unveiled you want to shout from the roof top) ithat is how powerful your brain can be to overcome when it is filled with other bias first. I then took on the 1000 years, dan 70 weeks and one by one what I was told was a lie.

    At the same time I started as a Christian I studied a lot on cults, and so called history. Come to find out as well history is not what we read in books either. Wars, assassinations, events ect were all designed for power and money. Things did not happen by accident and had an evil backing. This really opened my eyes to deception which has spilled over into Prophetic understanding. Satan is not going to let the Genie out of the bag.

    In understanding much of Revelation, You need to adapt a "counterfeit" mentality. Meaning to figure out Satan you need to understand God and vice versa. Satan is going to counterfeit the kingdom thus what is represented in God's kingdom is the same representation in Satan's. Thus we see 4, 7, and 12 in each kingdom. 4 beasts in each, 7 mountains/heads Satan 7 eyes/horns God, 12 horns Satan (10+2 Rev 13)/ 12 tribes. So using this understanding Satan 7 will counterfeit God's thus the 7 heads in Satan's kingdom represent his church followers and the associated 7 sprits/leaders, the 12 horns represent Israel, and the 4 beasts in each represent leaders/kings. Even the number 666 is a God counterfeit.

    And of course none of this possible without the Spirit.
    Ross3421, I agree with ewq1938, I am also am glad you saw your way out of the pretrib, but I will forewarn, you are in the minority now.

    If you are interested in listening to a well educated minister that is not a pretrib, that takes an amil view (if that's the only label that fits for us), the consider listening to Voddie Baucham

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLXOAe1weaU&t=2674s

    He has a whole series on the book of Revelation and is doctrine is sound.

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    Cool Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Your question: Would not the woman be a city?

    If that's the way for you to look at it, which makes the most sense to you regarding the scriptures, then I don't know that I would argue too much to convince otherwise. But I think the best way to view it would be as the church of the old covenant. But Zion probably fits the best description. The woman is the people of Israel whom God has chosen as his people. Not merely the people, but the covenant that God made with them as his chosen people.

    Consider this; metaphorically speaking, the woman of Rev 12 is God's wife.

    Jeremiah 3:
    12) Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
    13) Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
    14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:


    Your Question: But is Jesus in view as the "man" child? Was Israel to rule the nations?

    Rev 2:27
    "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

    So yes! Jesus is the man child who was to rule the world with a rod of iron. And he was caught up unto God and to his throne. This is Jesus and only Jesus.
    The woman has been correctly called the Church by most commentaries. Whereas the man child is definitely Jesus.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Excellent point! You are absolutely correct! The seed of the woman is indeed "The man child". Thanks for keeping me straight my brother.
    Thanks. It's easy to misread that particular wording but always good to take a fresh look at it

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Excellent point! You are absolutely correct! The seed of the woman is indeed "The man child". Thanks for keeping me straight my brother.
    Thanks. It's easy to misread that particular wording but always good to take a fresh look at it
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    The woman has been correctly called the Church by most commentaries.
    Whoever she is, after the ascension of Christ she is protected two separate times by God. I usually stick with her as being symbolic of faithful Israel who in a sense birthed Christ, and he spiritually birthed a remnant of faithful Christians who will be the Devil's targets in the great trib.

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #60

    Re: Who and what is the Babylon of Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Her seed is the man child of verse 5 not Christians at Pentecost. The remnant of that seed/man child would be Christians but from all races not just from Israel.

    the man child is Jesus , there's no question. It's in prophecy bro. Instead of us trying to read a verse and then think of what it might possibly mean , the bible tells us.


    “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:5‬ *KJV‬‬

    then at his return

    “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
    **Revelation‬ *19:11-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    this however is what I mean by prophecy

    “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
    **Psalms‬ *2:6-9, 11-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; (<<< seven spirits)

    And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”
    **Isaiah‬ *11:2-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    Vesture dipped in blood

    “Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.”
    **Isaiah‬ *63:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    the man child

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
    **Isaiah‬ *9:6‬ *KJV‬‬


    caught up,to,heaven to the throne

    “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
    **Mark‬ *16:19‬ *KJV‬‬



    it's best to,let scripture build our understandings, beware of the theologians, seminaries, prophetic theories and things....Gods word always has the understanding of Gods word. Sorry to interrupt, I just felt this thought and a few scriptures may help someone.....the book of revelation is a revelation OF Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Her seed is the man child of verse 5 not Christians at Pentecost. The remnant of that seed/man child would be Christians but from all races not just from Israel.

    the man child is Jesus , there's no question. It's in prophecy bro. Instead of us trying to read a verse and then think of what it might possibly mean , the bible tells us.


    “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *12:5‬ *KJV‬‬

    then at his return

    “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
    **Revelation‬ *19:11-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    this however is what I mean by prophecy

    “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
    **Psalms‬ *2:6-9, 11-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; (<<< seven spirits)

    And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”
    **Isaiah‬ *11:2-5‬ *KJV‬‬

    Vesture dipped in blood

    “Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.”
    **Isaiah‬ *63:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    the man child

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
    **Isaiah‬ *9:6‬ *KJV‬‬


    caught up,to,heaven to the throne

    “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
    **Mark‬ *16:19‬ *KJV‬‬



    it's best to,let scripture build our understandings, beware of the theologians, seminaries, prophetic theories and things....Gods word always has the understanding of Gods word. Sorry to interrupt, I just felt this thought and a few scriptures may help someone.....the book of revelation is a revelation OF Jesus Christ.

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