Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 40

Thread: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,381
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    So before whom three fell, are the lion, bear, leopard not 3 of the 10 horns.
    No Ross, the text speaks 3 different times of 3 of the ten horns falling or being plucked up etc.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    The text cannot be clearer.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,624

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The three which are "defeated" are the first three beasts lion, bear, leopard.

    These three are part of the beast thus are not defeated by the fourth beast rather the fourth beast assumes power for a season and a time.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts (lion, bear, leopard), they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    So before whom three fell, are the lion, bear, leopard not 3 of the 10 horns.
    Yes, I suppose that's one possible scenario, though I would be more convinced if it had said the 4th beast defeated the 1st 3 beasts. But to say the 10 horns are part of the 4th beast, who then defeats some of its own horns seems problematic. But I don't know...

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,029
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I suppose that's one possible scenario, though I would be more convinced if it had said the 4th beast defeated the 1st 3 beasts
    The 4th beast is mentioned then a few verses later states the first three beasts had dominion taken away. And then later this...

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, (which would include the lion, bear, leopard) and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,029
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No Ross, the text speaks 3 different times of 3 of the ten horns falling or being plucked up etc.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    The text cannot be clearer.
    It is clear.....the first three horns are also the three kings lion, bear, leopard. Can't they also be called horns as well?

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,381
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    It is clear.....the first three horns are also the three kings lion, bear, leopard. Can't they also be called horns as well?
    Those previous beasts have nothing to do with the last beast. They are fallen kingdoms of the past. The only horns Daniel writes about falling or being plucked up are three of the ten on the last beast. Mixing the previous beasts into the 4th beast is severe error but if those verses posted don't convince you nothing I say will.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,029
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Those previous beasts have nothing to do with the last beast. They are fallen kingdoms of the past.
    This is where you error. You take the main teaching position that these four are the same four in Dan 2. Understand Dan 7 is not a repeat of the same four in Dan 2 rather...

    The fourth kingdom consists of four parts, lion, bear, leopard beast.

    Notice the third kingdom is broken up into four parts making up the 4th kingdom.

    Dan 8

    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power

    These four kingdoms are the lion, bear, leopard, beast.

    Furthermore, these four beasts, lion, bear, leopard, beast all come up TOGETHER.

    Dan 7
    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    The first three beasts kings are still around when the fourth beast is in power...


    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    How can that be if they are kingdoms in succession? The kings of the lion, bear, leopard are still living but dominion taken by the 4th beast!!!

  7. #22

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.


    Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? Same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.


    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


    And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

    Same "players" and same order of appearance.

    Little horn = false prophet = antichrist.





    Not exactly but close. The horns are kings that have kingdoms. It doesn't say a horn was wounded but a head and the heads are where these ten kingdoms are located so it is an area of land where a kingdom, or more than one kingdom was "wounded". The wound is by a sword symbolizing war. Most likely it was an area of land, like one of the 7 continents that a war was fought and the land and kingdoms there were "wounded" from the war like Germany or Japan had "wounds" from the Allies.

    the four beasts described in Daniel make up the one beast with seven heads in revelation, John sees one because its much later and things have already happened with this prophecy. Note the description of the beasts.

    “And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

    And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
    **Daniel‬ *7:3-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    so, a lion, a bear and a leopard. Four beasts with 7 heads, remember the third has four heads. And the last has ten horns

    so you have seven heads and ten horns, appearance like a lion, leopard and bear.


    “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
    **Revelation‬ *13:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    Daniels vision, was about 700 years or so before johns vision. John sees one beast because much has already transpired. Remember revelation isn't all future, but is for the intent of showing what the future held. To show this fact note what he says of the beast ( past, present , future)

    “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ( Daniels little horn) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
    **Revelation‬ *17:9-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    when there is a kingdom, there is a king so those two points do not conflict. But notice how five of johns kingdoms have already fallen? That's a past event, and how one kind was current at the time, that's a present event, and then there was another to come....plus the ten other kings in the future who will give thier power to the beast....the eighth king

    “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”
    **Daniel‬ *7:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    it's the same beast, it's just that Daniel was seeing it beforehand so he sees four with seven heads and thier appearance....John sees one because the others are fallen.....revelation is always , ALWAYS understood through the other prophetic visions. John sees deeper but the understanding in all the prophets is the same as this particular subject Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel...three of the really rich books connecting to revelation.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,830
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In Daniel 7 there are four beasts, these are four KINGDOMS:
    Daniel 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth

    If beasts are kingdoms, how do we know when a specific leader is in mind, and not the kingdom:
    King Nebuchadnezzar: v4 it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.
    Antichrist: v8 eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully
    Antichrist: Rev 13 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words


    So we have a simple interpretation of symbols here, a beast is a KINGDOM FIRST, but is a human if given HUMAN FEATURES. The same can be applied to horns, they are regions, and sometimes leaders.

    Country/Kingdom:
    Rev 13 So when you read that the beast had 7 heads, this is a COUNTRY , not a person
    Rev 13 When you read that one of the heads of the beast was wounded, this is a country, not a person
    Rev 13 When the beast recovers from the wound, this is a country, not a person
    Dan 7 When you read that the beast has a little horn, this means that it rules from a small region inside that country
    Rev 13 When you read about the mark or number of the beast, this is a symbol or number of a country not a person
    Rev 17 When you read about the beast that was and yet will come, this is a country, not a person.

    Leader:
    Dan 7 When the little horn is given eyes and a mouth, the antichrist is in mind, he is boastful and rules for 3.5 years.
    Rev 13 When the beast of Rev 13 is given a mouth , the antichrist is in mind, he is boastful and rules for 3.5 years.

    I hope that gives clarity to those that think the antichrist will recover from a wound, or re-appear. It is a kingdom that recovers from the wound in Rev 13, not a person. It is a kingdom that re-appears in Rev 17, not a person. It is the mark and number of a country, not a person.
    My understanding is that a "beast" refers to a world empire. As you say, Daniel describes 4 beasts, but Revelation describes a single beast with 7 "heads." So the "heads" are consecutive empires arising from a spirit (Satan) who is the source of them all.

    It has been common for end-time writers to equate the "Beast" with an individual - "Antichrist." I don't think that is quite right. Antichrist is the man at the top who heads up the empire. He may embody the spirit of the empire in the the same way as Roman emperors were said to personify the spirit of Rome. But he is not the actual empire itself.

    Just my take on it.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,480

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    My understanding is that a "beast" refers to a world empire. As you say, Daniel describes 4 beasts, but Revelation describes a single beast with 7 "heads." So the "heads" are consecutive empires arising from a spirit (Satan) who is the source of them all.

    It has been common for end-time writers to equate the "Beast" with an individual - "Antichrist." I don't think that is quite right. Antichrist is the man at the top who heads up the empire. He may embody the spirit of the empire in the the same way as Roman emperors were said to personify the spirit of Rome. But he is not the actual empire itself.

    Just my take on it.
    Correct, nothing you say contradicts the opening post. The bible itself calls them four kingdoms in Daniel 7, but we can see by history that these are not just any old kingdoms, but especially powerful Middle Eastern Empires.

    This beast kingdom does not only rule for 42 months in Rev 13, it is already in existence in Rev 13. THEN it is given a "mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies" and rules for 42 months.
    This beast that rules for 42 months has the following qualities matching the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2:
    He comes to power amidst deceiving signs and wonders
    He is boastful
    He comes to his end at the second coming.

    This confirms what I said in the opening post, that once a kingdom/beast is given human qualities, a certain leader of that kingdom/empire is in mind. The man of sin in 2 Thess 2, being the human leader of the beast in Rev 13.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,624

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The 4th beast is mentioned then a few verses later states the first three beasts had dominion taken away. And then later this...

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, (which would include the lion, bear, leopard) and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
    I agree. But that also leaves open the more likely scenario to me. Rome conquered the world around them during the time of the ancient Roman Empire. But in the endtimes (today), the Roman imperial tradition will evolve into 10 nations, 3 of which will fall before the Antichrist. The language, in other words, seems to suggest that the horns, defeated by the Little Horn, originate out of the 4th Beast. Babylon, Persia, and Greece did *not* originate out of the Roman Empire!

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,029
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The language, in other words, seems to suggest that the horns, defeated by the Little Horn, originate out of the 4th Beast. Babylon, Persia, and Greece did *not* originate out of the Roman Empire!
    Who says the lion, bear, leopard equate to Babylon, Persia, and Greece?.

    Now you will say it says so in Dan 2. But does it? Who are the four parts which come about from the third kingdom Greece is broken into four parts? (lion, bear, leopard, beast).

    Now concerning this Rome thing, did you know that Rome is actually an off shoot of Greece? So in reality we are living today still in the third kingdom of Greece. News flash.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,624

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Who says the lion, bear, leopard equate to Babylon, Persia, and Greece?.

    Now you will say it says so in Dan 2. But does it? Who are the four parts which come about from the third kingdom Greece is broken into four parts? (lion, bear, leopard, beast).

    Now concerning this Rome thing, did you know that Rome is actually an off shoot of Greece? So in reality we are living today still in the third kingdom of Greece. News flash.
    Yes, after the fact I saw your answer to this question, which someone else posed. I don't agree with your conclusions, but I recognize your answer as reasonable.

    I don't, however, see Rome as originating out of Greece--different part of the Mediterranean. On the other hand, Rome did adopt much of the Greek culture.

    I think your argument is based on a disassociation between Dan 2 and Dan 7. I, on the other hand, accept the comparison of Dan 2 to Dan 7. I'm not sure how this can be resolved?

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,029
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I, on the other hand, accept the comparison of Dan 2 to Dan 7. I'm not sure how this can be resolved?

    let's start a thread on the subject.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,381
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    My understanding is that a "beast" refers to a world empire. As you say, Daniel describes 4 beasts, but Revelation describes a single beast with 7 "heads." So the "heads" are consecutive empires arising from a spirit (Satan) who is the source of them all.
    You aren't making sense here. First you say a beast is a world empire, then mention Rev and the beast with 7 heads, then all of the sudden this world empire suddenly has 7 consecutive empires as well? Also, the heads are not consecutive. All 7 are part of the Rev 13:1 beast empire. So, there are ten smaller empires/kingdoms within this larger (global) empire. I know some translations have the 7 mountains as also 7 consecutive past kings/kingdoms but that is a false and it causes the confusion you are presenting here. Go with the KJV of it, the 7 heads are different than the 7 consecutive kings.

    It has been common for end-time writers to equate the "Beast" with an individual - "Antichrist." I don't think that is quite right. Antichrist is the man at the top who heads up the empire.
    You got this one perfectly! Well done. The first beast has no single individual who is the AC. It is ten kingdoms with kings spanning 7 mountains. The only individual that can be the AC is the second beast called the FP. That is the one who exercises all the power of the 7 headed empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    My understanding is that a "beast" refers to a world empire. As you say, Daniel describes 4 beasts, but Revelation describes a single beast with 7 "heads." So the "heads" are consecutive empires arising from a spirit (Satan) who is the source of them all.
    You aren't making sense here. First you say a beast is a world empire, then mention Rev and the beast with 7 heads, then all of the sudden this world empire suddenly has 7 consecutive empires as well? Also, the heads are not consecutive. All 7 are part of the Rev 13:1 beast empire. So, there are ten smaller empires/kingdoms within this larger (global) empire. I know some translations have the 7 mountains as also 7 consecutive past kings/kingdoms but that is a false and it causes the confusion you are presenting here. Go with the KJV of it, the 7 heads are different than the 7 consecutive kings.

    It has been common for end-time writers to equate the "Beast" with an individual - "Antichrist." I don't think that is quite right. Antichrist is the man at the top who heads up the empire.
    You got this one perfectly! Well done. The first beast has no single individual who is the AC. It is ten kingdoms with kings spanning 7 mountains. The only individual that can be the AC is the second beast called the FP. That is the one who exercises all the power of the 7 headed empire.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,381
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: FOUR BEASTS AND THE MARK OF THE BEAST

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    the Roman imperial tradition will evolve into 10 nations, 3 of which will fall before the Antichrist.
    This doesn't happen anywhere in Revelation though.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Nov 4th 2017, 03:07 PM
  2. Discussion The Beast from the Sea, the Beast from the Earth, its Image, its Mark and its Number
    By Kofoworola Awojobi in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: Jul 23rd 2015, 08:44 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •