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Thread: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

  1. #16
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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow! Daniel was humble, but he was simply putting down the visions God gave him from Chapter 7 onwards.
    Also the Babylonian empire only lasted from 626 BC to 539 BC, and some would say really it was only from 612 BC when the Assyrian empire was overthrown by the alliance of Babylon and the Medes. Daniel lived through the ENTIRE Babylonian empire. Further there was a major change from 603 BC with Nebuchadnezzar's dream to 553 BC, which was the start of the last person to rule from Babylon. So to IGNORE CONTEXT is incredibly foolish.
    Yes, it would be foolish to ignore the context in which Daniel portrays these dreams as taking place in the Babylonian Empire. Babylon was the 1st of 4 kingdoms to come, all of which would arise out of the Mediterranean area, or at least impact that part of the world.

    As I said, Daniel's book and life was small, compared with the lives and histories of kingdoms. His view was consistent from ch. 2 to ch. 7, presenting 4 successive kingdoms, beginning with the place where Daniel was taken captive and ending with the empire that would put Christ to death and who would destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    As it clearly states this was FUTURE rising, so it is clear for Daniel it was future.
    The fact 3 of them were future shows that all 4 of them were to have originated out of that part of the world. Babylon had already done so, and was allied with the group that would ultimatey mean all 4 of them originated out of that part of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I pointed out the false position this is, as we have the 3rd beast also with wings, so are you arguing Alexander was afflicted like Nebuchadnezzar?
    Nebuchadnezzar was said to:
    Dan 4:25* that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
    What you've done is completely ignore the comparison the small book of Daniel itself makes between Dan 4 and Dan 7. Nebuchadnezzar was identified with an eagle because of his stature, and with a beast of burden because of his dehumanized state. This is true in both chapters.

    By contrast, you utilized national symbols, which isn't what the Scriptures are referring to. It is true that the ox is used in Daniel, along with other images. But that is part of the symbol of Nebuchadnezzar's dehumanization. The picture of him, in his regal glory, was of a lion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    So the comparison here in the prophecy is with an OX! Most certainly NOT with a lion or eagle.
    Dan 4:32* and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”*

    Here again the point is made that he was like an OX!

    Dan 4:33* Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.

    So the description is that of an OX and NOT a lion. Moreover it was the LENGTH of the hair was as LONG as an eagle's feathers, NOT that it was like eagle's feathers or that it was like eagle wings.
    The claws were compared to a birds claws, which is NOT what we have in Daniel 7 beast.
    The fact several symbols were used of Nebuchadnezzar is not a contradiction. He was a lion and an eagle in his state of glory. In his humiliation he became like an ox--a beast of burden, and his eagle's wings were torn off. This did not happen to anybody else in Daniel that I'm aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    No source for the claim about Babylon, it is true that the near east did have Lamassu, which was a deity with normally the body of a bull, but also sometimes a lion. However this was not a Babylonian deity.
    As I said, Babylonian deities may have included the griffin, and we have internet symbols indicating this and stating this. But more importantly, this isn't a *national symbol* or a *religious symbol* that God is referring to. Rather, these are how God characterized these kingdoms in dreams that he gave Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Why? You can look at pictures of the gate yourself and see.

    Actually I first looked at what symbols are found in those kingdoms. We do find symbols used for lots of nations and different places, so I realised that looking at symbols alone would not give a satisfactory answer. My interpretation is simply based on the CONTEXT of Daniel 7, when it was said, what the situation was and the actual words IN the prophecy.
    However like most you prefer a PRETEXT interpreting things FIRST through the lens of a similar passage. That seems to be your method of hermeneutics and as long as you do that then there is little chance of agreement. I prefer to ALWAYS understand CONTEXT and use that as the basis for my understanding.
    No, your whole big deal seems to be based on the idea *all 4 kingdoms* were *future kingdoms?* And this point is easily dealt with when viewing them as a group that had all originated in the Mediterranean region, 3 of which had yet to arise in the near future.

  2. #17
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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow! Daniel was humble, but he was simply putting down the visions God gave him from Chapter 7 onwards.
    Also the Babylonian empire only lasted from 626 BC to 539 BC, and some would say really it was only from 612 BC when the Assyrian empire was overthrown by the alliance of Babylon and the Medes. Daniel lived through the ENTIRE Babylonian empire. Further there was a major change from 603 BC with Nebuchadnezzar's dream to 553 BC, which was the start of the last person to rule from Babylon. So to IGNORE CONTEXT is incredibly foolish.
    Yes, it would be foolish to ignore the context in which Daniel portrays these dreams as taking place in the Babylonian Empire. Babylon was the 1st of 4 kingdoms to come, all of which would arise out of the Mediterranean area, or at least impact that part of the world.

    As I said, Daniel's book and life was small, compared with the lives and histories of kingdoms. His view was consistent from ch. 2 to ch. 7, presenting 4 successive kingdoms, beginning with the place where Daniel was taken captive and ending with the empire that would put Christ to death and who would destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    As it clearly states this was FUTURE rising, so it is clear for Daniel it was future.
    The fact 3 of them were future shows that all 4 of them were to have originated out of that part of the world. Babylon had already done so, and was allied with the group that would ultimatey mean all 4 of them originated out of that part of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I pointed out the false position this is, as we have the 3rd beast also with wings, so are you arguing Alexander was afflicted like Nebuchadnezzar?
    Nebuchadnezzar was said to:
    Dan 4:25* that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
    What you've done is completely ignore the comparison the small book of Daniel itself makes between Dan 4 and Dan 7. Nebuchadnezzar was identified with an eagle because of his stature, and with a beast of burden because of his dehumanized state. This is true in both chapters.

    By contrast, you utilized national symbols, which isn't what the Scriptures are referring to. It is true that the ox is used in Daniel, along with other images. But that is part of the symbol of Nebuchadnezzar's dehumanization. The picture of him, in his regal glory, was of a lion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    So the comparison here in the prophecy is with an OX! Most certainly NOT with a lion or eagle.
    Dan 4:32* and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”*

    Here again the point is made that he was like an OX!

    Dan 4:33* Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.

    So the description is that of an OX and NOT a lion. Moreover it was the LENGTH of the hair was as LONG as an eagle's feathers, NOT that it was like eagle's feathers or that it was like eagle wings.
    The claws were compared to a birds claws, which is NOT what we have in Daniel 7 beast.
    The fact several symbols were used of Nebuchadnezzar is not a contradiction. He was a lion and an eagle in his state of glory. In his humiliation he became like an ox--a beast of burden, and his eagle's wings were torn off. This did not happen to anybody else in Daniel that I'm aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    No source for the claim about Babylon, it is true that the near east did have Lamassu, which was a deity with normally the body of a bull, but also sometimes a lion. However this was not a Babylonian deity.
    As I said, Babylonian deities may have included the griffin, and we have internet symbols indicating this and stating this. But more importantly, this isn't a *national symbol* or a *religious symbol* that God is referring to. Rather, these are how God characterized these kingdoms in dreams that he gave Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Why? You can look at pictures of the gate yourself and see.

    Actually I first looked at what symbols are found in those kingdoms. We do find symbols used for lots of nations and different places, so I realised that looking at symbols alone would not give a satisfactory answer. My interpretation is simply based on the CONTEXT of Daniel 7, when it was said, what the situation was and the actual words IN the prophecy.
    However like most you prefer a PRETEXT interpreting things FIRST through the lens of a similar passage. That seems to be your method of hermeneutics and as long as you do that then there is little chance of agreement. I prefer to ALWAYS understand CONTEXT and use that as the basis for my understanding.
    No, your whole big deal seems to be based on the idea *all 4 kingdoms* were *future kingdoms?* And this point is easily dealt with when viewing them as a group that had all originated in the Mediterranean region, 3 of which had yet to arise in the near future.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, it would be foolish to ignore the context in which Daniel portrays these dreams as taking place in the Babylonian Empire. Babylon was the 1st of 4 kingdoms to come, all of which would arise out of the Mediterranean area, or at least impact that part of the world.
    Incorrect, the Babylonian Kingdom was NOT to come, as you have put above. It was in fact about to end. We have the FINAL ruler on the throne.
    Also neither Babylonia nor Persia actually came out of the Mediterranean. Persia is 800 miles from the Mediterranean. It is questionable whether the sea in Daniel 7 really means the Mediterranean (which elsewhere is called the Great Sea).
    They certainly did impact Israel though and beyond.

  4. #19
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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, Daniel's book and life was small, compared with the lives and histories of kingdoms. His view was consistent from ch. 2 to ch. 7, presenting 4 successive kingdoms, beginning with the place where Daniel was taken captive and ending with the empire that would put Christ to death and who would destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
    Huh?
    Chapter 3 - 5 is ONLY about the Babylonian Kingdom and Chapter 6 is ONLY about the Persian, though actually ONLY referenced under Darius the Mede and NOT Cyrus.
    Daniel does NOT end with a kingdom which kills Christ in either Dan 2 or Dan 7.
    In BOTH prophecies it ends with the KoG established on the earth, which is speaking of the Millenniu Kingdom, which is a kingdom RULED by the saints:
    Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,*

    Dan 7:27* And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

    Anyone who claims that Daniel 2 and 7 finish with the Romans, really is NOT reading the prophecies correctly.

    The fact 3 of them were future shows that all 4 of them were to have originated out of that part of the world. Babylon had already done so, and was allied with the group that would ultimatey mean all 4 of them originated out of that part of the world.
    Actually ALL 4 are stated as FUTURE.

    What you've done is completely ignore the comparison the small book of Daniel itself makes between Dan 4 and Dan 7. Nebuchadnezzar was identified with an eagle because of his stature, and with a beast of burden because of his dehumanized state. This is true in both chapters.
    By contrast, you utilized national symbols, which isn't what the Scriptures are referring to. It is true that the ox is used in Daniel, along with other images. But that is part of the symbol of Nebuchadnezzar's dehumanization. The picture of him, in his regal glory, was of a lion.
    No I have NOT ignored any possible comparison between Dan 4 and 7, instead I have looked at and considered whether it is a CONSISTENT application.
    As I explained in my reasoning it is NOT consistent to claim the wings in the first beast refers to Nebuchadnezzar, yet NOT apply the later wings of the Leopard in the SAME manner to a later king.
    Further Neb was NOT identified with an eagle, that is a false claim, which I also showed you.
    He IS connected with an OX, but NONE of these 4 beasts are connected with an OX! Therefore there is NO connection between these 4 beasts and Nebuchadnezzar.
    I do HOWEVER see what scripture tells us from other prophets and note that Cyrus is the one that God takes and calls His shepherd, His anointed one. This is NOT stated about Nebuchadnezzar.

    The fact several symbols were used of Nebuchadnezzar is not a contradiction. He was a lion and an eagle in his state of glory. In his humiliation he became like an ox--a beast of burden, and his eagle's wings were torn off. This did not happen to anybody else in Daniel that I'm aware of?
    I have not made a contradiction about Nebuchadnezzar being an ox and a man.

    As I said, Babylonian deities may have included the griffin, and we have internet symbols indicating this and stating this. But more importantly, this isn't a *national symbol* or a *religious symbol* that God is referring to. Rather, these are how God characterized these kingdoms in dreams that he gave Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel.
    So use the internet and find some Babylonian deities that have this. You WILL find Assyrian deities and you will find Persian, but I didn't find ANY Babylonian.
    You claim things, but haven't put in the research or checked things out, rather you demand they must be so, because YOUR interpretation NEEDS it to be so.
    It is indeed how God is characterising these kingdoms, but there is no connection between this characterisation and Nebuchadnezzar.

    No, your whole big deal seems to be based on the idea *all 4 kingdoms* were *future kingdoms?* And this point is easily dealt with when viewing them as a group that had all originated in the Mediterranean region, 3 of which had yet to arise in the near future.
    It is ONE of the important points, as the scripture EXPLICITLY uses the FUTURE tense. Now you may IGNORE the words that are in scripture, but when they are stated in the FUTURE, then I pay attention.
    Another ONE of the important points, is that this is the END of the Babylonian Kingdom, so the description of the 1st beast should be in the past or present and it isn't - unlike in Daniel 2.
    Another important point is that 50 years have passed and God is NOT saying the EXACT SAME thing to Daniel He did 50 years earlier. God deals with us where we are. However you are arguing that Daniel's life was an irrelevancy.

  5. #20

    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    What is then the Interpretation of the "Holy" Roman Empire, how is it described in scripture?

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by David ben Jesse View Post
    What is then the Interpretation of the "Holy" Roman Empire, how is it described in scripture?
    Not sure of whom you are asking this question, but my answer is that it is NOT in scripture, just as the Hapsburg Empire is NOT in scripture, nor that of Genghis Khan, Napoleon, or various African of Chinese empires.
    The HRE was a construct of Man, and was neither Holy, nor Roman and barely an Empire.

    We NEED to keep our understanding based on CONTEXT and FOCUS within that CONTEXT.
    Dan 2 is dealing with a Kingdom that has power over Israel and the Jews.
    Dan 7 speaks of Beasts which also have power over Israel and the Jews.

    The HRE did have some Jews living in it, but did NOT have control over Israel, nor a majority of Jews.

    When we consider the relationship of these kingdoms, and how each subsequent kingdom conquered the one that preceded it, we find an order as being:
    Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mixed (Arabs) - Caliphate.

    There is a clue in Daniel 2 which is this:
    Dan 2:41* And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay.*
    Dan 2:42* And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.*
    Dan 2:43* As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.*
    Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

    Notice that the FINAL kingdom is a "mixed" kingdom. It is one which shall be understood as the Toes kingdom. There are 10 toes, and this matches the 10 horns in Revelation who receive power for one hour and then give that power to the Beast.

    The word for "mixed" is found ONLY in Daniel 2, and nowhere else in the Bible.
    The original word is this:
    H6151
    עֲרַב
    ‛ărab
    ar-ab'
    (Chaldee); corresponding to H6148; to commingle: - mingle (self), mix.

    This is the SAME word which is used for the people we call Arabs - ערבי in Hebrew.
    Now we could say this is because the Arabs are a mixed people, so the name for them is from this.
    We could simply note that the word "mix" is not used anywhere else in the OT.
    However I find it intriguing that it is stated as divided AND mixed, and that it was the Arabs who conquered Israel and set up the Caliphate.

  7. #22

    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Thanks for the reply. Yes, I was expecting You to answer it.
    The iron mixed with clay is Europe, and since iron doesn't mix with clay, it doesn't cling together.
    Funny but true we see it with the Brexit these days.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by David ben Jesse View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Yes, I was expecting You to answer it.
    The iron mixed with clay is Europe, and since iron doesn't mix with clay, it doesn't cling together.
    Funny but true we see it with the Brexit these days.
    Nope, Iron mixed with Clay is NOT Europe.
    The material of itself does NOT denote a PEOPLE, but states something (the ideology) ABOUT the kingdom the PEOPLE are part of.
    This is why the explanation is as much a part of the prophecy as the description.

    Brexit is a picture of a failure of leadership as much as of differences in ideology.
    You can take any example where a nation splits for an example - so Yugoslavia would be another - was Yugoslavia the Iron mixed with Clay? Certainly not, yet this was a mix of peoples who had cultural and linguistic connections yet felt sufficiently separate to have a civil war along ethnic lines.

    The question is did Europe conquer Rome? No, it didn't.
    Each Kingdom conquered the preceding one, this is the CONSTANT recurring theme.
    Did Europe rule over Israel? No it didn't.
    This is another recurring theme.

    The fifth Kingdom has TWO parts - the Feet and the Toes.
    The Feet has already existed in the Caliphate, which is now gone.
    The Caliphate conquered the Roman Empire. The Caliphate ruled over Israel.
    The Toes being of the SAME as the Feet means we will have something akin to the Caliphate again.

    I hope this clarifies why neither the HRE nor Europe is the Toes kingdom of the Beast.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect, the Babylonian Kingdom was NOT to come, as you have put above. It was in fact about to end. We have the FINAL ruler on the throne.
    Also neither Babylonia nor Persia actually came out of the Mediterranean. Persia is 800 miles from the Mediterranean. It is questionable whether the sea in Daniel 7 really means the Mediterranean (which elsewhere is called the Great Sea).
    They certainly did impact Israel though and beyond.
    You have reasonable points--I just disagree with them for the reasons I gave. If we disagree, we disagree. Though your points are reasonable, I just opt for what I believe to be the stronger points. I'm aware of where Persia and Babylon were. For me, the point is that they were powers to rise up to control part of the Mediterranean, where Israel and other nations were located. There was always a scramble, in this part of the world, for control of the Mediterranean. The most distant power from the Mediterranean to seek power on that sea was perhaps Persia at that time.

    Your point about all 4 powers being *future powers* from Daniel's perspective is not integral to the language used. Generally, these were powers basing their power on the Mediterranean at some point in time. And generally, this would be, for Daniel, a *future* time. The fact one power still existed, and had already based its power there, is insignificant to me. This is just a language issue, in my view.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Huh?
    Chapter 3 - 5 is ONLY about the Babylonian Kingdom and Chapter 6 is ONLY about the Persian, though actually ONLY referenced under Darius the Mede and NOT Cyrus.
    Daniel does NOT end with a kingdom which kills Christ in either Dan 2 or Dan 7.
    In BOTH prophecies it ends with the KoG established on the earth, which is speaking of the Millenniu Kingdom, which is a kingdom RULED by the saints:
    Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,*

    Dan 7:27* And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

    Anyone who claims that Daniel 2 and 7 finish with the Romans, really is NOT reading the prophecies correctly.
    I'm aware that chs. 2 and 7 end with the Millennial Kingdom. My point was with respect to the 4 Kingdoms mentioned in those chapters. The 4th Kingdom was, in my view, identified clearly in ch. 9, where the "city and the sanctuary" are desolated. Rome was the Kingdom that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. So we know what the 4th Kingdom was. It was the 4th Kingdom after Babylon. All 4 Kingdoms are identified in the book of Daniel, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Actually ALL 4 are stated as FUTURE.
    We're not going to agree on this one. For me, this is a language issue. All 4 are grouped together as future, knowing that Babylon has already risen as the 1st Kingdom. Generally, they were future Kingdoms, even though the 1st Kingdom had already arisen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    No I have NOT ignored any possible comparison between Dan 4 and 7, instead I have looked at and considered whether it is a CONSISTENT application.
    As I explained in my reasoning it is NOT consistent to claim the wings in the first beast refers to Nebuchadnezzar, yet NOT apply the later wings of the Leopard in the SAME manner to a later king.
    Further Neb was NOT identified with an eagle, that is a false claim, which I also showed you.
    Neb. is associated with a tree so high that birds trafficked in it. An eagle alights upon very tall trees. His hair also grew like *eagle's* feathers. It is similar in ch. 7. You have not disproven this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    He IS connected with an OX, but NONE of these 4 beasts are connected with an OX! Therefore there is NO connection between these 4 beasts and Nebuchadnezzar.
    As I said, Neb. is connected not just with one creature, but with several--a lion, an ox, an eagle--if you are to accept that both accounts are about him. In each account he is associated with more than one creature. So to tie him to a single beast is wrong. The different associations have to do with the difference between his regal splendor and his debasement. As a lion and as an eagle he is royal. But as an ox, or living among the animals, he has been debased. His eagle's wings have been stripped off. You cannot fasten a single image to Neb.--the Scriptures forbid this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I do HOWEVER see what scripture tells us from other prophets and note that Cyrus is the one that God takes and calls His shepherd, His anointed one. This is NOT stated about Nebuchadnezzar.

    I have not made a contradiction about Nebuchadnezzar being an ox and a man.

    So use the internet and find some Babylonian deities that have this. You WILL find Assyrian deities and you will find Persian, but I didn't find ANY Babylonian.
    You claim things, but haven't put in the research or checked things out, rather you demand they must be so, because YOUR interpretation NEEDS it to be so.
    It is indeed how God is characterising these kingdoms, but there is no connection between this characterisation and Nebuchadnezzar.
    No, I found 2 or 3 web sites that listed Babylonian deities that included the griffin. I don't research it further because I lack interest in it. The issue, for me, is not finding a national symbol, but rather, identifying the 4 Kingdoms God has characterized by various creatures. And as I said, Daniel lived in the time of Babylon, the 1st Kingdom, which is so identified in ch. 2. A lion, eagle, and ox, particularly with eagle wings stripped off, clearly characterizes Neb. for me. He is of great stature and regal, setting the precedent for power wielded over Israel in the Mediterranean region. It happened before with Egypt, but this was in the time of Daniel, at the time of the Captivity.

    The book of Daniel goes on to list the powers that follow Babylon--Persia, Greece, and Rome. We see Persia and Greece in particular in ch. 8, but also in ch. 11. Alexander is there, but Antiochus 4 plays a particularly prominent role in the Greek Kingdom, following its split into 4 regions. Finally, Rome is evident in the King that destroys the "city and the sanctuary" in ch. 9. This small book is understood pretty easily, if this is accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It is ONE of the important points, as the scripture EXPLICITLY uses the FUTURE tense. Now you may IGNORE the words that are in scripture, but when they are stated in the FUTURE, then I pay attention.
    Another ONE of the important points, is that this is the END of the Babylonian Kingdom, so the description of the 1st beast should be in the past or present and it isn't - unlike in Daniel 2.
    Another important point is that 50 years have passed and God is NOT saying the EXACT SAME thing to Daniel He did 50 years earlier. God deals with us where we are. However you are arguing that Daniel's life was an irrelevancy.
    We disagree. Your point is noted.

  11. #26

    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, Iron mixed with Clay is NOT Europe.
    The material of itself does NOT denote a PEOPLE, but states something (the ideology) ABOUT the kingdom the PEOPLE are part of.
    This is why the explanation is as much a part of the prophecy as the description.

    Brexit is a picture of a failure of leadership as much as of differences in ideology.
    You can take any example where a nation splits for an example - so Yugoslavia would be another - was Yugoslavia the Iron mixed with Clay? Certainly not, yet this was a mix of peoples who had cultural and linguistic connections yet felt sufficiently separate to have a civil war along ethnic lines.

    The question is did Europe conquer Rome? No, it didn't.
    Each Kingdom conquered the preceding one, this is the CONSTANT recurring theme.
    Did Europe rule over Israel? No it didn't.
    This is another recurring theme.

    The fifth Kingdom has TWO parts - the Feet and the Toes.
    The Feet has already existed in the Caliphate, which is now gone.
    The Caliphate conquered the Roman Empire. The Caliphate ruled over Israel.
    The Toes being of the SAME as the Feet means we will have something akin to the Caliphate again.

    I hope this clarifies why neither the HRE nor Europe is the Toes kingdom of the Beast.
    Sorry to say it, but I think You are mistaken.
    For example there are approximately 1.2 Billion people in the Roman Catholic System, which blasphemes God each and every day.
    It is ridiculous to think that this would go unnoticed in scripture.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by David ben Jesse View Post
    Sorry to say it, but I think You are mistaken.
    For example there are approximately 1.2 Billion people in the Roman Catholic System, which blasphemes God each and every day.
    It is ridiculous to think that this would go unnoticed in scripture.
    If you think I am mistaken, then show it from scripture.
    The RC are NOT the HRE, so if you think the kingdom of iron and clay is a religious system, then please clarify.
    Also the focus here is on who rules Israel and the Jews, and not some particular religion.
    There are around 1 billion Hindus and more than a billion Muslims and over 500 million Buddhists. Is this unnoticed in scripture?
    As to whether those who are Catholic actually are blaspheming God... that is perhaps best left for a different thread in a different section.

    I have no reason to think I am mistaken. Most who connect the RC with the Bible, see her as the Mystery Babylon who rides the Beast, and NOT the Beast itself.
    The Kingdom of Toes, and the 4th Beast of Dan 7 and Rev 13 seem to be the same Beast, but the harlot who rides it is not.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm aware that chs. 2 and 7 end with the Millennial Kingdom. My point was with respect to the 4 Kingdoms mentioned in those chapters. The 4th Kingdom was, in my view, identified clearly in ch. 9, where the "city and the sanctuary" are desolated. Rome was the Kingdom that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. So we know what the 4th Kingdom was. It was the 4th Kingdom after Babylon. All 4 Kingdoms are identified in the book of Daniel, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.
    So now you jump to Dan 9 because you don;t find support for your view in Dan 2 or 7.
    The 4th kingdom, the Legs of Iron, was indeed Rome, but we have the Feet and Toes which comes after which is NOT Rome.

    We're not going to agree on this one. For me, this is a language issue. All 4 are grouped together as future, knowing that Babylon has already risen as the 1st Kingdom. Generally, they were future Kingdoms, even though the 1st Kingdom had already arisen.
    You do NOT group a PRESENT kingdom with FUTURE kingdoms by calling them ALL future. That is STUPID!
    The 1st kingdom had NOT arisen in Daniel's dream.
    Further YOUR 1st kingdom was FALLING not RISING as the final king was on the throne.

    Neb. is associated with a tree so high that birds trafficked in it. An eagle alights upon very tall trees. His hair also grew like *eagle's* feathers. It is similar in ch. 7. You have not disproven this.
    Wow, so because Neb is a high tree, and because a high tree could possibly have an eagle in it, so Neb is ALSO an eagle?
    His hair did NOT grow like eagle's feathers, but as LONG as eagle's feathers. Please try to quote scripture accurately.
    Dan 4:33* Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers,

    I have highlighted the FACT that Neb is NOT connected with an eagle. Further that this

    No, I found 2 or 3 web sites that listed Babylonian deities that included the griffin. I don't research it further because I lack interest in it. The issue, for me, is not finding a national symbol, but rather, identifying the 4 Kingdoms God has characterized by various creatures. And as I said, Daniel lived in the time of Babylon, the 1st Kingdom, which is so identified in ch. 2. A lion, eagle, and ox, particularly with eagle wings stripped off, clearly characterizes Neb. for me. He is of great stature and regal, setting the precedent for power wielded over Israel in the Mediterranean region. It happened before with Egypt, but this was in the time of Daniel, at the time of the Captivity.
    So provide one, and then we can check if that website has its facts correct.
    Are you saying you that because you find it somewhere on the internet you simply accept it without checking?
    If you focused, like I did on the 4 beasts you find Babylon is NOT one of them, regardless of national symbols.
    Daniel also lived in the time of the Persian Kingdom, which for Israel was in many ways more important prophetically from the later period of Daniel's life.
    Neb is considered dead 12 years BEFORE Daniel has his vision in Dan 7 - so he is NOT in the picture.

    The book of Daniel goes on to list the powers that follow Babylon--Persia, Greece, and Rome. We see Persia and Greece in particular in ch. 8, but also in ch. 11. Alexander is there, but Antiochus 4 plays a particularly prominent role in the Greek Kingdom, following its split into 4 regions. Finally, Rome is evident in the King that destroys the "city and the sanctuary" in ch. 9. This small book is understood pretty easily, if this is accepted.
    The focus does move on in Dan 8 and 11 to the Greek kingdom.
    Dan 9 has from Persia to Rome and beyond in it.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So now you jump to Dan 9 because you don;t find support for your view in Dan 2 or 7.
    The 4th kingdom, the Legs of Iron, was indeed Rome, but we have the Feet and Toes which comes after which is NOT Rome.
    Believe what you will. It's a free world. I see a connection between two feet, which have ten toes, and the 10 horns. This connects the 4 Kingdoms of Dan 2 with the 4 Kingdoms of Dan 7. And it connects the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 with the 4th Kingdom of Dan 7. Both would have 10 entities emerging out of the 4th Kingdom, although it is less apparent in Dan 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    You do NOT group a PRESENT kingdom with FUTURE kingdoms by calling them ALL future. That is STUPID!
    The 1st kingdom had NOT arisen in Daniel's dream.
    Further YOUR 1st kingdom was FALLING not RISING as the final king was on the throne.
    You do yourself a disservice when you call others here "stupid." In fact, scholars see it this way. Let me put it like this. I live in the ancient Roman Empire, and I receive a vision of 3 future empires, a French, a German, and an Austrian empire.

    But the vision is given like this. I saw 4 empires rise up to become great empires. They will take control of Europe, and exert great authority over the nations that surround them.

    This appears to present all 4 empires as being future. And yet, the 1st empire is viewed along with them as a single linear unit, encompassing a train of empires. It makes no difference that the 1st empire is not future. It joins with the future ones as those who have risen and will rise in a linear train of empires.

    Why don't you just go ahead and call everybody "stupid" who you disagree with? Maybe that will change their mind?

    Dan 7.17 The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.

    From Gill's commentary:

    four kings shall arise out of the earth; or kingdoms; which have an earthly original and foundation; are supported by earthly and worldly means, and with earthly and worldly views; and are different from the kingdom of Christ and his saints, which is not of the world, though it may be in it: this explains what is meant by the great sea, from whence these beasts are said to come up, Daniel 7:3, nor is it any material objection that the first of these kingdoms, the Babylonian, was risen already, and almost at an end; since the denomination is taken from the larger number; three of them were to arise, and the first was of the same original with them; thus it is said, Daniel 11:2, that three kings of Persia should stand up, and yet Cyrus, who was one of them, reigned already.

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/7-17.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Wow, so because Neb is a high tree, and because a high tree could possibly have an eagle in it, so Neb is ALSO an eagle?
    His hair did NOT grow like eagle's feathers, but as LONG as eagle's feathers. Please try to quote scripture accurately.
    Dan 4:33* Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers,

    I have highlighted the FACT that Neb is NOT connected with an eagle. Further that this
    I've shown you the comparison between Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 4 and Dan 7. Both refer to something characteristic of an eagle. In ch. 4 Nebuchadnezzar is a great tree, to which birds gather. His hair grew like an eagle's feathers, indicating that he had been an exalted figure, and was now debased. In ch. 7 his eagle wings were torn off. In both cases he was debased with the animals--in ch. 4 like a beast of burden--an ox.

    I get that you don't like my arguments. You like to colorfully portray my views as idiotic. I feel bad for you that you have to debase yourself as a Christian this way, having no self-control. Sad!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    So provide one, and then we can check if that website has its facts correct.
    Are you saying you that because you find it somewhere on the internet you simply accept it without checking?
    If you focused, like I did on the 4 beasts you find Babylon is NOT one of them, regardless of national symbols.
    Daniel also lived in the time of the Persian Kingdom, which for Israel was in many ways more important prophetically from the later period of Daniel's life.
    Neb is considered dead 12 years BEFORE Daniel has his vision in Dan 7 - so he is NOT in the picture.
    I'm not interested in arguing over whether the griffin was a Babylonian god or some kind of national emblem. As I said, God used these symbols to exemplify the characteristics of these kingdoms--not to present what their national emblems were, and not to present what their idols were.

    I'm not interested in pursuing something that is not important to me. I was just downplaying your own argument, that exclusive reference to Persia makes the griffin apply to that kingdom. It is not so, but the point is not essential.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The focus does move on in Dan 8 and 11 to the Greek kingdom.
    Dan 9 has from Persia to Rome and beyond in it.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Believe what you will. It's a free world. I see a connection between two feet, which have ten toes, and the 10 horns. This connects the 4 Kingdoms of Dan 2 with the 4 Kingdoms of Dan 7. And it connects the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 with the 4th Kingdom of Dan 7. Both would have 10 entities emerging out of the 4th Kingdom, although it is less apparent in Dan 2.
    There is indeed a connection with the Feet and Toes, and these 10 Toes are certainly connected with the 10 horns. So are you really a Preterist declaring that these 10 horns happened in the time of Jesus? If you state (like I do) that these 10 horns are yet future, then this also means the 10 Toes are future - having made the SAME connection.
    This means the Kingdom of Toes is NOT the Roman kingdom of Jesus' time.
    It is the Kingdom of Legs which is the 4th kingdom and is the Roman's of Jesus' time.

    You do yourself a disservice when you call others here "stupid." In fact, scholars see it this way. Let me put it like this. I live in the ancient Roman Empire, and I receive a vision of 3 future empires, a French, a German, and an Austrian empire.
    But the vision is given like this. I saw 4 empires rise up to become great empires. They will take control of Europe, and exert great authority over the nations that surround them.
    This appears to present all 4 empires as being future. And yet, the 1st empire is viewed along with them as a single linear unit, encompassing a train of empires. It makes no difference that the 1st empire is not future. It joins with the future ones as those who have risen and will rise in a linear train of empires.
    Sorry, but then you make God UNABLE to state things clearly.
    You are CHANGING how a vision would be given to YOUR preconceived one.
    This is a STUPID argument, and entirely circular because you are presetting the parameters rather than going with the parameters WITHIN the prophecy.
    And yes scholars can be stupid. We ALL can be stupid (and I include myself). The question is whether what is CLEARLY stated is being kept to, or whether we bring in a PRETEXT to detemrine how we understand things.

    Why don't you just go ahead and call everybody "stupid" who you disagree with? Maybe that will change their mind?
    Dan 7.17 The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
    From Gill's commentary:
    four kings shall arise out of the earth; or kingdoms; which have an earthly original and foundation; are supported by earthly and worldly means, and with earthly and worldly views; and are different from the kingdom of Christ and his saints, which is not of the world, though it may be in it: this explains what is meant by the great sea, from whence these beasts are said to come up, Daniel 7:3, nor is it any material objection that the first of these kingdoms, the Babylonian, was risen already, and almost at an end; since the denomination is taken from the larger number; three of them were to arise, and the first was of the same original with them; thus it is said, Daniel 11:2, that three kings of Persia should stand up, and yet Cyrus, who was one of them, reigned already.

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/7-17.htm
    And Gill's comment is STUPID. It IS a material objection to say, that the first is already at an end. No one takes a denomination from a larger number. Four is the larger number and trumps three. ALL four are stated to arise in the future.
    Gill acknowledges the issue, but his declamation is most certainly stupid, and anyone who agrees with this is also stupid. Can you find another example from scripture where this is true without it being clarified? No you can't.
    Gill is trying to brush aside his PRETEXT with a baseless argument.

    I've shown you the comparison between Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 4 and Dan 7. Both refer to something characteristic of an eagle. In ch. 4 Nebuchadnezzar is a great tree, to which birds gather. His hair grew like an eagle's feathers, indicating that he had been an exalted figure, and was now debased. In ch. 7 his eagle wings were torn off. In both cases he was debased with the animals--in ch. 4 like a beast of burden--an ox.
    I get that you don't like my arguments. You like to colorfully portray my views as idiotic. I feel bad for you that you have to debase yourself as a Christian this way, having no self-control. Sad!
    I know you have ATTEMPTED to show a connection. However when I have shown you WHY such a connection is invalid, you have FAILED to deal with MY objection. That is sad! It means you have no real response. His hair did NOT grow like eagle's feathers. I quoted it for you and you seem unable to accept that is NOT what was stated. ONLY the LENGTH of his hair was like the LENGTH of an eagle's feather. Eagle's feathers can grow to 40 cms (15 - 18 inches) so as a comparative the prophecy is saying that Nebuchadnezzar's hair grew to be around 40 cm LONG.
    This is NOT indicating an exalted figure, but an UNKEMPT bedraggled, sorry specimen of a man.
    I also highlighted that IF wings in Dan 7:4 is referring to what happened to Neb, then wings in Dan 7:6 should ALSO refer to a similar thing, in order for it to be an INTERNALLY CONSISTENT interpretation. Yet this you have totally ignored and failed to deal with.

    I'm not interested in arguing over whether the griffin was a Babylonian god or some kind of national emblem. As I said, God used these symbols to exemplify the characteristics of these kingdoms--not to present what their national emblems were, and not to present what their idols were.
    God did use the description of the beast to give understanding of what kingdom was meant, and does speak of its characteristic. To this we agree, however prophecy is meant to bring understanding, and it would quickly become apparent to Daniel that the Griffin was speaking about Cyrus and Persia.

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