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Thread: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

  1. #46
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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Really, wow! Please do provide examples.
    CONSISTENCY of meaning is a REQUIREMENT for communication.
    You have the vision of the 7 sealed scroll in the book of Revelation. Each seal opens to reveal something different--each seal is not the same. Now is that so difficult?

    But I suspect you just want to argue. We have our positions made known. Others can decide for themselves, if they're interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    In CONTEXT means that the CONTEXT matters. Yet you are REJECTING the CONTEXT by claiming that what is said in CONTEXT is irrelevant to the meaning of word wings. Therefore your statement above is false. You are NOT following CONTEXT but in fact following PRETEXT.
    The *context* for Jesus' use of the term "the holy place" is the encirclement of Jerusalem by Roman troops. You completely ignore this obvious context in Luke 21, and present it as something completely different from the *same context* in Matthew and Mark, who are reporting on the exact same discourse of Jesus! So context is the opposite of what you are drawing upon. In fact, you are actually *ignoring* this context, discarding it for your own pretext, which is that different versions present different contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Hair measurement is NOT in Dan 7. So nothing there about CONTEXT.
    The comparison was to the LENGTH of a feather. IF you IGNORE words that are stated then you will come to all sorts of conclusions which are wrong.
    Having long hair does NOT show Neb's lofty position. The VERY point is the OPPOSITE, that it is about how LOW Neb is.
    I really don't get why you are determined to bring Dan 4 into a dream given to a different person possibly 10 or 15 years later.
    However as PRETEXT seems to be your method for interpreting scripture, then I shouldn't be too surprised.
    Once again, the point is that Nebuchadnezzar had been an "eagle" in his lofty position as "king of kings." Then he had his wings stripped off, landing him on earth as a fallen "beast." His hair was long like an eagle's feathers because he was crazy, no longer practicing good hygiene. Like a wild animal he let things go. And yet he had been an eagle with great dignity. Now, however, he was fallen. He also had claws like a bird--same truth. He had been a lofty creature, and now was, as a man, unkempt and fallen. If you cannot get this, you will never get it until you get beyond your own "pretexts."

  2. #47
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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You have the vision of the 7 sealed scroll in the book of Revelation. Each seal opens to reveal something different--each seal is not the same. Now is that so difficult?
    Sorry, but that is NOT the SAME as what you were claiming. Each Beast in Daniel 7 is different, so you could have used that IF that were a VALID example.
    WHAT you have FAILED to do is show that there is NO CONSISTENCY between the 1st seal and the 2nd seal etc.
    In the whole vision we have an order given, 1st, 2nd 3rd etc.
    We have the seal broken and then an event is seen.
    We have across the seals a CONSISTENCY.
    How you understand the white horse informs how you understand the red horse and the black horse etc.
    So WHN you find an example where CONSISTENCY is NOT applied, then please do present it!

    The *context* for Jesus' use of the term "the holy place" is the encirclement of Jerusalem by Roman troops. You completely ignore this obvious context in Luke 21, and present it as something completely different from the *same context* in Matthew and Mark, who are reporting on the exact same discourse of Jesus! So context is the opposite of what you are drawing upon. In fact, you are actually *ignoring* this context, discarding it for your own pretext, which is that different versions present different contexts.
    Nope that is NOT the CONTEXT.
    The CONTEXT is Jesus having been AT The Temple, and then telling the Disciples the Temple will not have one stone on top of another.
    The CONTEXT is the questions the Disciples asked for Jesus to answer.
    Jerusalem being surrounded by armies is one of the things stated and so forms a part of the CONTEXT only.
    As the Disciples report DIFFERENT things from the Discourse, so it is FALSE to say they are SAYING the SAME thing. This is a SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH which you are ignoring.

    Once again, the point is that Nebuchadnezzar had been an "eagle" in his lofty position as "king of kings." Then he had his wings stripped off, landing him on earth as a fallen "beast." His hair was long like an eagle's feathers because he was crazy, no longer practicing good hygiene. Like a wild animal he let things go. And yet he had been an eagle with great dignity. Now, however, he was fallen. He also had claws like a bird--same truth. He had been a lofty creature, and now was, as a man, unkempt and fallen. If you cannot get this, you will never get it until you get beyond your own "pretexts."
    Nowhere in Dan 4 is Neb described as an eagle.
    The picture in Dan 7 is NOT of a Beast which is FALLEN. Do pay attention to what is ACTUALLY stated about the Beast once the wings are removed.
    There is NO picture of the beast becoming an OX or driven AWAY from Men in Dan 7. There is NOTHING about the Beast in Dan 7 losing his power.
    No, Neb was not an eagle with dignity, nor does Dan 7 say the Beast was an eagle. The dignity is seen when the Beast is given the HEART of a Man.
    And no it was NOT the claws of an eagle stated in Dan 4, but just like a bird, showing his nails were not trimmed or looked after. In Dan 4 the picture is of a Man becoming a BEAST, and NOT a Lion but an OX.
    In Dan 7 we have a mythical Beast being changed into a regular Beast but with a Man's heart.
    Now about the ONLY thing that you can argue, is that Nebuchadnezzar seems to have remained a Beast, yet He acknowledged God, and that possibly fits the picture.
    However it fails the CONSISTENCY test for CONTEXT.

    When you manage to stop relying on PRETEXT and really get into CONTEXT, then you will make a lot of progress in ALL your interpretation of scripture. This is true for EVERYONE including me.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry, but that is NOT the SAME as what you were claiming. Each Beast in Daniel 7 is different, so you could have used that IF that were a VALID example.
    WHAT you have FAILED to do is show that there is NO CONSISTENCY between the 1st seal and the 2nd seal etc.
    In the whole vision we have an order given, 1st, 2nd 3rd etc.
    We have the seal broken and then an event is seen.
    We have across the seals a CONSISTENCY.
    How you understand the white horse informs how you understand the red horse and the black horse etc.
    So WHN you find an example where CONSISTENCY is NOT applied, then please do present it!


    Nope that is NOT the CONTEXT.
    The CONTEXT is Jesus having been AT The Temple, and then telling the Disciples the Temple will not have one stone on top of another.
    The CONTEXT is the questions the Disciples asked for Jesus to answer.
    Jerusalem being surrounded by armies is one of the things stated and so forms a part of the CONTEXT only.
    As the Disciples report DIFFERENT things from the Discourse, so it is FALSE to say they are SAYING the SAME thing. This is a SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH which you are ignoring.


    Nowhere in Dan 4 is Neb described as an eagle.
    The picture in Dan 7 is NOT of a Beast which is FALLEN. Do pay attention to what is ACTUALLY stated about the Beast once the wings are removed.
    There is NO picture of the beast becoming an OX or driven AWAY from Men in Dan 7. There is NOTHING about the Beast in Dan 7 losing his power.
    No, Neb was not an eagle with dignity, nor does Dan 7 say the Beast was an eagle. The dignity is seen when the Beast is given the HEART of a Man.
    And no it was NOT the claws of an eagle stated in Dan 4, but just like a bird, showing his nails were not trimmed or looked after. In Dan 4 the picture is of a Man becoming a BEAST, and NOT a Lion but an OX.
    In Dan 7 we have a mythical Beast being changed into a regular Beast but with a Man's heart.
    Now about the ONLY thing that you can argue, is that Nebuchadnezzar seems to have remained a Beast, yet He acknowledged God, and that possibly fits the picture.
    However it fails the CONSISTENCY test for CONTEXT.

    When you manage to stop relying on PRETEXT and really get into CONTEXT, then you will make a lot of progress in ALL your interpretation of scripture. This is true for EVERYONE including me.
    Get back to me when you're truly willing to acknowledge the validity of someone else's argument. All you do is define the rules of interpretation for yourself. You decide what's "consistent." You decide what the "context" is. You decide what various symbols mean. You decide what's an acceptable argument--what valid "evidence" is. Your standards are very subjective, and not reasonable, in my opinion.

    Nebuchadnezzar is compared to an eagle--to a bird stripped of its wings. He is viewed as "lofty" before his fall--he is a tree. The fact many biblical scholars see a connection between Dan 7 and Dan 4, and you think it is non-existent, is suspect to me.

    Dan 4.14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches.
    Dan 7.4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it."

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Get back to me when you're truly willing to acknowledge the validity of someone else's argument. All you do is define the rules of interpretation for yourself. You decide what's "consistent." You decide what the "context" is. You decide what various symbols mean. You decide what's an acceptable argument--what valid "evidence" is. Your standards are very subjective, and not reasonable, in my opinion.

    Nebuchadnezzar is compared to an eagle--to a bird stripped of its wings. He is viewed as "lofty" before his fall--he is a tree. The fact many biblical scholars see a connection between Dan 7 and Dan 4, and you think it is non-existent, is suspect to me.

    Dan 4.14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches.
    Dan 7.4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it."
    Daniel 4:33-34
    33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

    34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

    Daniel 7:4
    The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it."
    His dominion is an eternal dominion;
    his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

    These above verses are clearly taking about the same events the word eagle are even mentioned in both chapters

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Daniel 4:33-34
    33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

    34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

    Daniel 7:4
    The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it."
    His dominion is an eternal dominion;
    his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

    These above verses are clearly taking about the same events the word eagle are even mentioned in both chapters
    Thank you. You and many others believe that, as I obviously do. Whether it is true or not, the connections are obviously there, and at the very least are arguable. To me the evidence is overwhelming.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Get back to me when you're truly willing to acknowledge the validity of someone else's argument. All you do is define the rules of interpretation for yourself. You decide what's "consistent." You decide what the "context" is. You decide what various symbols mean. You decide what's an acceptable argument--what valid "evidence" is. Your standards are very subjective, and not reasonable, in my opinion.
    Wow!
    Are you saying you do NOT understand what the words CONTEXT or CONSISTENT means?
    Have a read in the dictionary and then say how my usage is NOT fitting that.
    I am not deciding what these words mean.
    I am simply stating what is a valid method of interpretation.
    Now IF you wish to argue that CONTEXT is irrelevant, or that CONSISTENCY is invalid, then please be honest and say so.
    I have NOT given a single subjective view.

    Nebuchadnezzar is compared to an eagle--to a bird stripped of its wings. He is viewed as "lofty" before his fall--he is a tree. The fact many biblical scholars see a connection between Dan 7 and Dan 4, and you think it is non-existent, is suspect to me.
    Nope, Nebuchadnezzar is NOT compared to an eagle in Dan 4 (and is not mentioned in Dan 7).
    Further in Dan 4 we have Neb GETTING hairs of length like eagle's feathers - so this is an ADDITION, and NOT a removal - in his fallen state.
    I notice that you have to resort to "bible scholars" rather than actual scripture and the point made.

    Your claim is the OPPOSITE of what we read happen.
    In Dan 4 when Neb FALLS he gets eagle's feathers (hair the length of), but you are arguing this is about him being lofty.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Daniel 4:33-34
    33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

    34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

    Daniel 7:4
    The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it."
    His dominion is an eternal dominion;
    his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

    These above verses are clearly taking about the same events the word eagle are even mentioned in both chapters
    So because the word "eagle" is found in both chapters they are about the same thing?
    You take PRETEXT to a new height.

    So does this verse also fit?
    Eze 1:10* As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face. The four had the face of a lion on the right side, the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face of an eagle.

    So is Neb also one of these? The word "eagle" is in this verse too.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thank you. You and many others believe that, as I obviously do. Whether it is true or not, the connections are obviously there, and at the very least are arguable. To me the evidence is overwhelming.
    Your welcome Randy its as plain as day even the fact that a lion is referenced to Babylon is more confirmation

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Your welcome Randy its as plain as day even the fact that a lion is referenced to Babylon is more confirmation
    As it is NOT a Lion which is referenced but a Gryphon, so your claim shows more holes.
    When we add in that in Dan 7:17 we are told these are FUTURE kingdoms then we KNOW that this view is untenable.

    Why do people hold onto views contrary to EXPLICIT scripture?
    I understand when things are NOT explicit, but when we are told these are kingdoms which SHALL ARISE (this is the future verb form), then it is NOT understandable.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As it is NOT a Lion which is referenced but a Gryphon, so your claim shows more holes.
    When we add in that in Dan 7:17 we are told these are FUTURE kingdoms then we KNOW that this view is untenable.

    Why do people hold onto views contrary to EXPLICIT scripture?
    I understand when things are NOT explicit, but when we are told these are kingdoms which SHALL ARISE (this is the future verb form), then it is NOT understandable.
    Babylon is referred to as a "lion" in Jeremiah 50. It is not incomprehensible that the "lion" is used to describe Babylon in Dan 7. The *future* rise of Babylon is presented as a replay of Babylon's rise, presenting what was to be a series of future developments.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Babylon is referred to as a "lion" in Jeremiah 50. It is not incomprehensible that the "lion" is used to describe Babylon in Dan 7. The *future* rise of Babylon is presented as a replay of Babylon's rise, presenting what was to be a series of future developments.
    Yes Babylon is indeed a Lion. I did not say Babylon was NOT referred to a Lion. However in Dan 7 he sees a Gryphon, which is NOT a lion, but an eagle headed, and eagle winged creature which has the body of a lion.
    There is NO FUTURE rise of Babylon in Dan 7 beast. The 1st beast looses its wings and stands up and is given the mind of a man. This means this vision is NOT speaking of a replay AFTER the 4th beast.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So because the word "eagle" is found in both chapters they are about the same thing?
    You take PRETEXT to a new height.

    So does this verse also fit?
    Eze 1:10* As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face. The four had the face of a lion on the right side, the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and the four had the face of an eagle.

    So is Neb also one of these? The word "eagle" is in this verse too.
    No not every reference of an eagle is king neb but it is in these verses.

    Both have a lion attributed to them as a lion was referenced to Babylon.

    King neb is described as an eagle who lost his mind for a season

    After this season the eagle was given back the mind of a man. This is exactly what happed to king Neb it is prophecy fulfilled.

    When is says in 4 beast will rise from the earth it doesn't mean that it is future just that 4 beast will rise from the earth and they did

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    No not every reference of an eagle is king neb but it is in these verses.
    When you say these verses are you alluding to Dan 4?
    In Dan 4 the reference to an eagle is NOT speaking of him as a king, but as someone who is like an OX and whose HAIR is long like the length of an eagle's feather.

    Both have a lion attributed to them as a lion was referenced to Babylon.
    Babylon does, but Dan 7 does NOT mention a lion, but a Gryphon. A different beast, though made up in part of a lion. This speaks of Persia.

    King neb is described as an eagle who lost his mind for a season
    No he isn't described as an eagle anywhere in Daniel.

    After this season the eagle was given back the mind of a man. This is exactly what happed to king Neb it is prophecy fulfilled.
    In Dan 7 the eagle wings are torn off NOT restored. So does Neb lose his eagleness?

    When is says in 4 beast will rise from the earth it doesn't mean that it is future just that 4 beast will rise from the earth and they did
    Actually when it says they shall arise, then this DOES mean it is speaking of the FUTURE, that is why you use the FUTURE form of words.
    If you say you WILL be changed, it does NOT mean you ARE changed.
    Notice you put "will" rise, which is a FUTURE event. If you tried to say "will rise" means "has arisen" then you are changing the verb forms and meanings.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes Babylon is indeed a Lion. I did not say Babylon was NOT referred to a Lion. However in Dan 7 he sees a Gryphon, which is NOT a lion, but an eagle headed, and eagle winged creature which has the body of a lion.
    There is NO FUTURE rise of Babylon in Dan 7 beast. The 1st beast looses its wings and stands up and is given the mind of a man. This means this vision is NOT speaking of a replay AFTER the 4th beast.
    I didn't mean this is a replay *after the 4th beast.* I'm saying that this is just a product of liberty in communicating, to replay the rise of Babylon as part of a group to rise in the future. Thus, they are *all* portrayed as still having yet to rise in the future.

    In reality, Babylon had already arisen. But inasmuch as the 3 future beasts were still yet to rise, and the set of 4 belong together, they are *all* portrayed as yet future. OC people have trouble not seeing language as a perfect science. Language is actually very flexible, and certainly not a perfect science.

    In reality, the series of powers had already arisen, through Babylon. But it was not yet finished as a single kingdom, and it certainly wasn't done yet as a series of kingdoms. It's just that they are being portrayed as a series having an immediate future sequence following the then-present power, Babylon. This would be significant for Israel.

    When reiterating all 4 kingdoms as yet future, it is replaying only the initial part, which I don't think is very significant. What is significant is that this is a dream of Daniel's paralleling the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, both of which referred to 4 kingdoms beginning with Babylon.

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    Re: Does Daniel 2 and 7 speak of the same four kingdoms? Or are they different?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I didn't mean this is a replay *after the 4th beast.* I'm saying that this is just a product of liberty in communicating, to replay the rise of Babylon as part of a group to rise in the future. Thus, they are *all* portrayed as still having yet to rise in the future.

    In reality, Babylon had already arisen. But inasmuch as the 3 future beasts were still yet to rise, and the set of 4 belong together, they are *all* portrayed as yet future. OC people have trouble not seeing language as a perfect science. Language is actually very flexible, and certainly not a perfect science.
    Language is always full of unintended meanings and confusions.
    However ALL 4 beasts were portrayed to rise in the future which means any existing kingdom is NOT being included. This is the SIMPLE usage of language and how ANYONE reading it WITHOUT a PRECONCEIVED bias would read it.

    In reality, the series of powers had already arisen, through Babylon. But it was not yet finished as a single kingdom, and it certainly wasn't done yet as a series of kingdoms. It's just that they are being portrayed as a series having an immediate future sequence following the then-present power, Babylon. This would be significant for Israel.
    When reiterating all 4 kingdoms as yet future, it is replaying only the initial part, which I don't think is very significant. What is significant is that this is a dream of Daniel's paralleling the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, both of which referred to 4 kingdoms beginning with Babylon.
    None of the beasts rose through Babylon! It was to come to an end and it will NEVER rise again.
    The then power was to come to an end.
    This dream did NOT parallel Nebuchadnezzar's instead it took us on from where Nebuchadnezzar's dream had reached.

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