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Thread: Condemnation, and a savior

  1. #31
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    remember how this started, I was saying the law was meant for condemnation and brought death, whereas the gospel is ordained unto life? So we started discussing? So address or I gues go around this scripture and re explain to me what it means
    In a nutshell, the Law confirmed the death sentence given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. The sin nature had become a part of Man, and no body of Law could lift the reality from Man that he was a sinner. The Law kept Israel in relationship with God, temporarily covering their sins. But it could not remove the sentence of death upon all Man universally.

    So the Law was indeed condemnation. And the Gospel brought life, because Jesus legally undid the curse of sin, which was death. He has enabled us to experience his spiritual life and the promise of eternity that goes with it. This guarantees that we will be raised from the dead after our current mortal existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    ...For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament;

    which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *3:6-18‬ *KJV‬‬
    The Law was given to Israel over a period of centuries. And so, it covered good times and bad times--when Israel was generally obedient and when Israel approached national apostasy. The Law governed that entire period of time.

    Paul's argument was that over this period of time it became apparent that the sin nature was still active in Man, causing Israel to be prone to the influences of sin, and ultimately descend into the abyss of national sin. This was proof to Paul that Israel's salvation depended on the complete removal of the influences of sin in Israel, and would ultimately require a complete resurrection from this mortal life. Otherwise, Israel's national salvation would be impossible.

    Though the Law showed the need for this separation from the influence of sinners, and the need to avoid national sins, the reality was that something more than the Law would be needed. There would need to be a separation in Israel itself between righteous and unrighteous, because the unrighteous would not reform.

    This is at the core of the gospel--not just that men can be delivered from the effects of sin, but more, that they must be removed from the influences of sin. Not only did Christ die so that we should die to ourselves and live for him, but also so that those who refuse to repent will be judged and removed.

    The Law was therefore inept at completing the job. Christ had to come to legally deliver us from this mortal life by the sacrifice of his own moral life on behalf of our own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    so what's Paul saying there about the ministration of death? The one engraved on stones ? The letter? The one that brings death?

    the spirit gives life right?

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
    **John‬ *6:63‬ *KJV‬‬

    compare to the book of the law of Moses

    Take this book of the law, and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:26‬ *KJV‬‬

    the law is meant to witness against people who break it, in other words sinners. Here's Paul making the reference to this

    “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
    **Colossians‬ *2:13-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    the law is meant to condemn sinners, Jesus came to save them.

  2. #32

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not bothered by anything you've said. I'm just trying to respond to your question.



    There's a couple of questions built into this. First, I agree that the Kingdom of God was at the core of Jesus' message, and that it represents the Law of Christ. Of course, you would have to define what the "Law" is?



    Yes, there's an odd assortment of beliefs expressed here--the kind you get from forums like this one. And I don't mean to disparage forums like this--obviously, I utilize it a lot. I do differentiate between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. In the Law of Christ we lose all of the 613 requirements codified under one body of Law. The Law of Christ may repeat some of the laws contained in the Law of Moses, but they are codified in an entirely new body of Law.

    For example, the law to honor parents is in the Law of Moses. That same law is repeated in the Law of Christ, but the temple, priestly, and sacrificial rituals are stripped from it. Christ has become the defacto source of all these things, which were just shadows of something more permanent.



    Christ's sacrifice was the legal requirement to give us his spiritual life. His spiritual life is the life of God embodied in his human frame--body, soul, and spirit.

    By his merit we are able to participate in his own divine/human presentation of his spiritual life to us. Rather than just accepting what he did redemptively, it is equally important that we prove our sincerity by actually receiving what he died to give us--namely, salvation.

    I would define "salvation," therefore, as becoming participatory in his life. Thus, for me, one must, in order to properly receive salvation, also receive Christ's spiritual life.

    In this way we show our repentance in deeds. We must be connected to the vine, and produce fruit. This is evidence that we have received salvation.

    this I can agree with mostly, I'm not sure the number 613 is accurate, the law of Moses repeats many things also. I once had a discussion with a group and we all seperate you counted....every one came up with a different number because of the repeats. I agree the entire law of Moses was only a foreshadow, from the priesthood, to the law itself even Moses foreshadowed Jesus.

    the law , is what Jesus preached , the gospel of the kingdom of God, it's redemptive in nature, rather than condemning in nature as the law is for sinners. The law of Moses , is all about what the people do , or do not do based on what the law says. Which is Paul's point that it is not of faith. He actually teaches it repetitively. The difference is this

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    what he's talking about is here, which is really restated throughout the law

    “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

    A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

    And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *11:26-28‬ *KJV‬‬


    what Paul is saying is , either a blessing or curse is entirely based on whether they kept all the things he commanded them....that's what makes it not faith. It's based on their own works, how good they are at keeping the rules determines everything. You are blessed or cursed based on your own righteousness.

    the issue isn't the law, but the people under that law are doomed , this is what God told Moses just before Moses died

    If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


    See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

    But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *30:10-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    so after he explains there is blessing and curse life and death....then look what he said would happen

    “And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

    this is where he found fault with the people...and the law becomes a witness against them.

    And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


    For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:15-18, 24-29‬ *KJV‬‬


    there's no life under the law of Moses for anyone who is not holy, and ....we're all sinners, as they were. The gospels intent is to call those who are already sinners, to repentance. Not just saying " repent" or suffer the curses of the law....but through forgiving us, and forgiving us through his suffering and death. The thing is do we see God as a consuming fire that is surely to destroy us?

    or do we see God who has done everything to save us? Jesus wins the heart for those with faith in him, he wins our hearts through his love shown to us at Calvary......that's a Lord a poor lost sinner will Love in return, and hear and accept his words because we know that's life .....not a curse , but life to the condemned.

    faith is believing Jesus, even though we do not see his miracles , we believe because Gods word says it's true, says this is what Jesus did. That's faith. They were different, they saw his power again and again, even parting the sea, that they walked across on dry land, and then devastated an army which pursued them. It doesn't take faith of you are seeing something with your eyes....like a non believer a lot of times they'll say " I only believe what I can see and touch" it's because they don't have faith .

    the law is based on the person under it, works, deeds, restraining your flesh from what it wants, because you are terrified of the sentance upon sin. Now, Moses....he had faith. It's sHown because he approached God. being afraid of God is different from fearing him. Afraid keeps us away , and proves there's no faith. Being reverent, and even showing boldness to approach him, that takes faith .

    like Peter, when he was focused on Jesus and what he said , he walked on water, he was walking by faith. But then he looked at the situation, the waves and wind, the reality " I'm doing something impossible" he became afraid and that's when he sank. Faith is about the invisible things, but we know that we know that we know thier truth.

  3. #33

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In a nutshell, the Law confirmed the death sentence given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. The sin nature had become a part of Man, and no body of Law could lift the reality from Man that he was a sinner. The Law kept Israel in relationship with God, temporarily covering their sins. But it could not remove the sentence of death upon all Man universally.

    So the Law was indeed condemnation. And the Gospel brought life, because Jesus legally undid the curse of sin, which was death. He has enabled us to experience his spiritual life and the promise of eternity that goes with it. This guarantees that we will be raised from the dead after our current mortal existence.



    The Law was given to Israel over a period of centuries. And so, it covered good times and bad times--when Israel was generally obedient and when Israel approached national apostasy. The Law governed that entire period of time.

    Paul's argument was that over this period of time it became apparent that the sin nature was still active in Man, causing Israel to be prone to the influences of sin, and ultimately descend into the abyss of national sin. This was proof to Paul that Israel's salvation depended on the complete removal of the influences of sin in Israel, and would ultimately require a complete resurrection from this mortal life. Otherwise, Israel's national salvation would be impossible.

    Though the Law showed the need for this separation from the influence of sinners, and the need to avoid national sins, the reality was that something more than the Law would be needed. There would need to be a separation in Israel itself between righteous and unrighteous, because the unrighteous would not reform.

    This is at the core of the gospel--not just that men can be delivered from the effects of sin, but more, that they must be removed from the influences of sin. Not only did Christ die so that we should die to ourselves and live for him, but also so that those who refuse to repent will be judged and removed.

    The Law was therefore inept at completing the job. Christ had to come to legally deliver us from this mortal life by the sacrifice of his own moral life on behalf of our own.

    can agree with the first part there , but the law was given by Moses, it wasn't centuries , the law came through Moses, just before he died he wrote all the laws in a book, referenced either the book of Moses, or the book of the law, in scripture.

    here's why Moses was made mediator of the law he spoke the Ten Commandments to all the people....

    These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

    And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

    Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *5:22-28‬ *KJV‬‬


    so the people were so terrified they insisted Moses deal with God, and then Moses would command them whatever God had said and they said " well do whatever he says"



    the rest of the Old Testament is the prophets beginning with Samuel. And some historical records in other places, no one else gave the law but Moses. He mediated it from God who he spoke with in the cloud, to,the people who were too afraid to even hear God speak because like Adam , what your saying there Gods presence meant death in thier deceived minds they had Adams fallen nature. The prophets weren't giving the law, but they were pronouncing judgements , and worth much more they were promising the messiah, who would come and speak Gods true words of eternity. Jesus. Here's where that promise began , Moses himself actually delivered it.

    here's Gods answer to them being afraid and wanting Moses to mediate. The promise that Jesus would come speaking Gods word

    According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *18:16-19‬ *KJV‬‬

    we know this is Jesus because Peter tells us it is

    “For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
    **Acts‬ *3:22-24, 26‬ *KJV‬‬

    so even when the law was being given those years in the wilderness, there was already a promise that Jesus was going to superceed the laws authority. God made Jesus the mediator for the world, Moses is only a type or figure of the true giver of the Law of God. Who is of course Jesus. It's why he kept saying so much these words are not mine , but the father who sent me I'm speaking his words.

    it's why Jesus focuses so much on his doctrine and the importance of it.


    we're much more in agreement than I was seeing, sometimes we say the same thing differently ....

  4. #34

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In a nutshell, the Law confirmed the death sentence given to Adam and Eve in the Garden. The sin nature had become a part of Man, and no body of Law could lift the reality from Man that he was a sinner. The Law kept Israel in relationship with God, temporarily covering their sins. But it could not remove the sentence of death upon all Man universally.

    So the Law was indeed condemnation. And the Gospel brought life, because Jesus legally undid the curse of sin, which was death. He has enabled us to experience his spiritual life and the promise of eternity that goes with it. This guarantees that we will be raised from the dead after our current mortal existence.



    The Law was given to Israel over a period of centuries. And so, it covered good times and bad times--when Israel was generally obedient and when Israel approached national apostasy. The Law governed that entire period of time.

    Paul's argument was that over this period of time it became apparent that the sin nature was still active in Man, causing Israel to be prone to the influences of sin, and ultimately descend into the abyss of national sin. This was proof to Paul that Israel's salvation depended on the complete removal of the influences of sin in Israel, and would ultimately require a complete resurrection from this mortal life. Otherwise, Israel's national salvation would be impossible.

    Though the Law showed the need for this separation from the influence of sinners, and the need to avoid national sins, the reality was that something more than the Law would be needed. There would need to be a separation in Israel itself between righteous and unrighteous, because the unrighteous would not reform.

    This is at the core of the gospel--not just that men can be delivered from the effects of sin, but more, that they must be removed from the influences of sin. Not only did Christ die so that we should die to ourselves and live for him, but also so that those who refuse to repent will be judged and removed.

    The Law was therefore inept at completing the job. Christ had to come to legally deliver us from this mortal life by the sacrifice of his own moral life on behalf of our own.

    noooo the law was never inept or flawed at all, it was perfect. The people , is , sinners are the issue. The law is good , right , holy we the people are inept. If we were holy, the law would never have been given, it's Gods response to mans sin. Meaning the sin which dwells within us in our hearts. Lust, greed, pride, hate, Unforgiveness, vanity ect....those are what causes us to sin, the law was not meant to heal mans sin, but to reveal our sin to us , and to teach us sin is death.

    it's like if you build a house , you first have to dig and lay the foundation. You can't just provide a savior of no one knows thier a sinner and what sin even is. First because man is proud and sort of thinks we're what everything revolves around, we have to be humbled understanding " I'm a sinner too just like the rest" the laws effect even right now, someone somewhere in the world, is beginning to understand through the law of Moses ....I'm a sinner too and sin is condemned by all mighty God. That's when the person is prepared to accept a savior

    unless we understand sin and its destruction, we'll never repent of it. The flesh loves sin, and without the knowledge of sin, we'll never even know it's wrong.

    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:10-12, 19-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    until a sinner knows sin, there's never an ability to repent of it. Unless I know I'm a sinner, and sin is condemned, I could never accept a savior. Why would I if I don't realize I need one? Why would I stop committing sdultery unless I knew it is sin and is condemned? You know what I mean? Sinners are secretly in love with sin through the flesh. Until it's brought to our attention, we'll never realize it's our "Delilah "

    the law is good, and yes, they had a relationship with God through the law. But that relationship was already part of the plan, through thier disobedience, the world would be included under both the law, and the gospel. They were scattered into every nation on earth, there are and have been synagogues, and Jews reading and sharing the law in every nation, on earth even to this day the law is preached in the world by the descendants of those same Jews who were dispersed onto the world.


    and really the proof of that is the holy bible is everywhere people are. Anyone who has read the bible, has access to the law , and the gospel

  5. #35

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know what you mean by this?



    Moses was forgiven for a murder committed before the Law was given. And I'm sure Moses was not perfect from day to day when he was in the wilderness. God's grace has always been active. God is not different today than He was when He used Moses. If you think there are 2 different gods from OT to NT, yes, we are far, far apart! Or, if you think God changes, from OT to NT--again, we are far, far apart. The Law of Moses was a different system with different requirements. But God Himself was the same God as the One who presides over the NT.



    It depends on what you mean by this? If you are saying there is only Grace in the NT system, then you would have to say there was *no grace* under the Law? Or, if you are saying there was grace under both OT and NT systems, what then is your point? We would agree! The only point I wish to make is that "grace" under the OT was as yet incomplete. And this is what has caused us to call the NT system a system of Grace!



    I agree. All Christians live by faith, if they are genuine Christians. They live by the ethics of an invisible God, and produce the fruit of an invisible Christ.



    Paul argued that the Law does not *of necessity* work by faith, but he was *not* saying that faith did not operate under the Law at all! Would you actually argue that Moses, David, and the Prophets did not operate under the Law in faith? Do you really think Aaron and the Levites did not operate their priesthood in faith?

    Of course they did! So what Paul was really expressing, in Biblical Terminology, is that the Law *without faith* does not have to operate by faith, because there were people who did not have faith and yet continued to operate under the Law. That is, they performed a variety of rituals without having faith in their hearts, and so produced only an external form of service under the Law. Paul wasn't at all saying that the Law was *supposed* to operate that way, or could *only* operate that way!



    I think you're conflating two groups of people here, who were necessarily mixed at that time. There were, as I said, those with faith and those without faith. Both were in fear at that stage in their lives because they were unaccustomed to living under the rules of God's Law. They all had a healthy respect for God, and even Moses had a healthy fear of God.

    However, Moses could confidently go up on Sinai, knowing that God had called him up there. Others were in fear not because they had no faith, but only because the faith of men tend to be weak even when they have faith. Others had no faith at all. They were all mixed together. This certainly did not mean that all Israel lacked all faith!



    We probably won't resolve everything, but I do hope we do understand where we're coming from? Communication is not always easy in these kinds of subjects. But thanks for the discussion!
    I'm not sure how to break up the quotes like you are doing there, sorry so many different replies the first part there about David. The gospel of the kingdom, was promised to David first, that his seed ( Jesus) would sit on the throne of Gods eternal kingdom and it would never change. Is what I'm saying. It's why the Christ is known as "the son of David" by so many Jewish people. Old bibles referenced it " tha davidic kingdom or messianic kingdom promises.

    my bible is from the 1940s, was my grandmothers. It's really cool. Has so much cross reference in it, when I compare it to the novel from 1983 that I have , it's apparent as time goes on, bibles have become more of a mass production done with far less care by the people producing them.

    David a lot of what he wrote is actually about Jesus , also Isaiah was prophet at that time so much of his writings are about Jesus and the messianic kingdom , which is the gospel of the kingdom. They weren't preaching it, but they were foretelling it. Like in Isaiah , you can pretty much find the main points of the gospel scattered through his writings....things had shifted because just like God said they would do, Israel repeatedly broke his covenant, built altars to,other gods all through Israel, thier priests and prophets began saying " we're blessed God will never send his curses on us be happy ye people, God is with us...

    the whole time they were saying that, God was through the prophets exclaiming " that's it, I have turned from you just like I said I would in the law if you did all of this stuff....so then about half way through, he saying " the old things have come to pass, I'm telling you of the new thing I'm going to do before it comes forth I'm telling you " stuff like this

    “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.”
    **Isaiah‬ *42:1, 4-7, 9-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    which you probably recognize from the gospel which quotes this prophecy about Jesus.

    David's writings are prophetic concerning Jesus, who is through Joseph, David's descendant. It's where the promises of the gospel really start showing up, though of course it began with Abraham Isaac and Jacob just the promise " through thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed" then after the law, David begins speaking much more of the kingdom, it's not as of God was reacting to what man had done, it's all a plan from when Adam ate the fruit.

    1 st stage is to show fallen man that thier nature, thier heart is corrupt, to show them what sin is, and what it brings, and that they too fall short of the glory of God, which is mans true state in the beginning, to be the image and likeness or " glory" of our creator. When they partook of the knowledge of good and evil, it corrupted mankinds nature. But man had no understanding of sin, what is sin and what is not? Man needed this because our nature now was conflicted with good and evil.

    the law of Moses does that it gives us the knowledge of sin, and shows us our guilt before the holy law. This part of the plan was spread to all men, even those who have never read a word of the law, still have good in thier nature as well as evil. They still have a conscience that they know for instance killing is wrong. Even bad guys who don't feel bad about killing, they still know it's wrong that's why they hide what they have done.

    those who believe in God will hear the law, and will know thier need for the savior God has to break our pride through showing us we are sinners and can't survive without his work through his salvation. Notice how different David speaks of things? It's because the kingdom really gets going through him. The promises and doctrine I mean.

  6. #36

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Here's a better illustration of what I meant concerning David, there's a lot of scripture here but it , I think really shows what I mean to say concerning the kiddos promises....

    .For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
    **Acts‬ *2:25-33‬ *KJV‬‬

    so just this example...

    "Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.”
    **Psalms‬ *80:17-19‬ *KJV‬‬

    I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”
    **Psalms‬ *16:8-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”
    **Psalms‬ *110:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    here's where the promise began and then is passed from David to Solomon, just like Abrahams promise went to,Isaac, and then Jacob. Notice what he says concerning Israel if they did not turn back to him, which of course originates from the curse of the law.

    “And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.”
    **1 Chronicles‬ *17:11-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    then to Solomon ...


    “And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:”
    **1 Kings‬ *9:4-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    so then in the prophets Isaiah and Zechariah and ezekeil and Jeremiah"..you hear of " the branch of righteousness which comes out of the root of Jesse who was David's father.

    “In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness. For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;”
    **Jeremiah‬ *33:15-17‬ *KJV‬‬


    I began with peters revelatory view understanding these things all concerned Christ, being seated at the right hand of God, on the true throne of the true Jerusalem in the heavens. But you find many references to the kingdom in the prophets, beginning with David. David was under the mosaic law of course because the gospel had not been revealed , but much of what David writes about Gods word and law, is prophetic concerning Jesus Christ it's really a main principle of the gospel, this is why David received the mercy he did, even that absolom died for his sins against Uriah, David was spared through the promise of Jesus Christ.

    “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, ...Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”
    **Romans‬ *1:1, 3-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    of course Jesus was born of a virgin, but Joseph is recognized as his father on earth, Joseph was of David's line. So you have the root of the terms " son of man" and " son of God" which David also was prophetic about in psalms like this

    Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
    **Psalms‬ *2:6-12‬ *KJV‬‬


    the understanding that Jesus is everywhere in scripture from Abraham to Moses to David, to all the prophets , to all the epistles . The bible really in its truth is a slow revelation of Jesus Christ and what he would do for mankind to save us from sin and death. So with David's writings one needs to be looking forward to the things of life and light, those things manifest in the gospel. Remembering that David had committed several sins of death according to the written law of Moses. Which leaves the understanding that all forgiveness even then, wasn't based on animal blood, but was based on the pre existence and ordination of Jesus sacrifice from the foundation of the world.

    absoloms death resulted from David his fathers sins..again showing us that under law, sin is death which is one of the main points of the law to understand what sin is, and the fact that it brings death.Because if a believer doesn't know that, there never going to have an occasion to repent. We don't repent of things we don't know are wrong.

    but forgiveness is all based on Christ's atonement, even before it was manifest, he was ordained beforehand. And God he doesn't work like we do, he works the end from the beginning, speaks forth the things that have always been. The laws sacrifices were a teaching to the people, so they would better understand the atonement when it was manifest, but it's only the blood of Jesus that atones for sin, he himself is the only propitiation for mans sin.


    other examples of David foretelling the gospel

    My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


    For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

    Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.


    I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

    My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.”

    **Psalms‬ *22:1, 7-8, 16-18, 20, 22-23, 25-27‬ *KJV‬‬


    notice how David is really beginning to speak the message forth that the messiah Who would be the king forever, who would not only be for Israel, but would be salvation for the whole world. A lot of things began changing with David so his writings need to be understood from a gospel perspective and not a perspective from the law of Moses. Again David lived under the mosaic law, but he was speaking forth in his writings of the gospel in most cases.

    My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.”

    **Psalms‬ *45:1-4, 6-7, 11‬ *KJV‬‬


    many of these things are quoted by Peter, Paul and the book of Hebrews, even Jesus quoted psalms of David concerning himself.

    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”


    Hebrews 1:8-9

    “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”
    **Hebrews‬ *1:5-6‬ *KJV‬‬
    ‬‬

    Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.”
    **Psalms‬ *32:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”
    **Romans‬ *4:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    **this is what I meant about David and his writings concerning the word of God, he's speaking forward to the gospel, which is the law of the spirit of life, which is light, and salvation for believers. Speaking forward to the manifestation of the atonement which covers sin and removes it. The bible is about jesus the lord, whether it's from a time before his birth or after. And Jesus , he is speaking forth of God the Father. So you have the Fathers witness of the son in scripture, and the sons true witness of God the Father in the gospel.

    "search the scriptures for in them ye think that ye have eternal,life , but they are those which testify of me and you will not come to me that ye may have life" <<<< therein is the truth of God , in Jesus Christ our Lord forever, who is the salvation of man our redeemer.

  7. #37
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    this I can agree with mostly, I'm not sure the number 613 is accurate, the law of Moses repeats many things also. I once had a discussion with a group and we all seperate you counted....every one came up with a different number because of the repeats. I agree the entire law of Moses was only a foreshadow, from the priesthood, to the law itself even Moses foreshadowed Jesus.

    the law , is what Jesus preached , the gospel of the kingdom of God, it's redemptive in nature, rather than condemning in nature as the law is for sinners. The law of Moses , is all about what the people do , or do not do based on what the law says. Which is Paul's point that it is not of faith. He actually teaches it repetitively. The difference is this

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    what he's talking about is here, which is really restated throughout the law

    “Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

    A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

    And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *11:26-28‬ *KJV‬‬


    what Paul is saying is , either a blessing or curse is entirely based on whether they kept all the things he commanded them....that's what makes it not faith. It's based on their own works, how good they are at keeping the rules determines everything. You are blessed or cursed based on your own righteousness.

    the issue isn't the law, but the people under that law are doomed , this is what God told Moses just before Moses died

    If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

    See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

    But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *30:10-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    so after he explains there is blessing and curse life and death....then look what he said would happen

    “And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

    this is where he found fault with the people...and the law becomes a witness against them.

    And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

    For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:15-18, 24-29‬ *KJV‬‬

    there's no life under the law of Moses for anyone who is not holy, and ....we're all sinners, as they were. The gospels intent is to call those who are already sinners, to repentance. Not just saying " repent" or suffer the curses of the law....but through forgiving us, and forgiving us through his suffering and death. The thing is do we see God as a consuming fire that is surely to destroy us?

    or do we see God who has done everything to save us? Jesus wins the heart for those with faith in him, he wins our hearts through his love shown to us at Calvary......that's a Lord a poor lost sinner will Love in return, and hear and accept his words because we know that's life .....not a curse , but life to the condemned.

    faith is believing Jesus, even though we do not see his miracles , we believe because Gods word says it's true, says this is what Jesus did. That's faith. They were different, they saw his power again and again, even parting the sea, that they walked across on dry land, and then devastated an army which pursued them. It doesn't take faith of you are seeing something with your eyes....like a non believer a lot of times they'll say " I only believe what I can see and touch" it's because they don't have faith .

    the law is based on the person under it, works, deeds, restraining your flesh from what it wants, because you are terrified of the sentance upon sin. Now, Moses....he had faith. It's sHown because he approached God. being afraid of God is different from fearing him. Afraid keeps us away , and proves there's no faith. Being reverent, and even showing boldness to approach him, that takes faith .

    like Peter, when he was focused on Jesus and what he said , he walked on water, he was walking by faith. But then he looked at the situation, the waves and wind, the reality " I'm doing something impossible" he became afraid and that's when he sank. Faith is about the invisible things, but we know that we know that we know thier truth.
    It's one thing to quote Scriptures, and something different to understand and to explain them. We know the Law was unworkable over the long run. That doesn't mean it served no good purpose during the time it was in effect. If Faith, as a system, was the only system worth having, there never would've been the Law at all!

    I believe faith operated under the Law. It's just that the Law, as a system, was not adequate over the long haul, unless Christ came to complete it. He said he came to fulfill the Law!

    You make it sound as if Christ came with a gospel of the Kingdom *prior to* the Cross? He did, but this was preached while the Law was still in effect. He was not denouncing the Law--rather, he upheld the Law "until it was fully accomplished."

    Again, the Law was condemnatory only in the sense that Adamic guilt could not be revoked apart from Christ's sacrifice. Adamic guilt could only be temporarily ameliorated, preserving a covenant relationship between God and Man, until it was time for Christ to come.

    The Law required obedience. But perfect obedience was impossible for Man, who has a sin nature. So, as good as the Law was, in preserving a relationship between God and Man, it could not remove the stain of sin. The curse of sin, which was aimed at human disobedience, would always result, ie until Christ came.

  8. #38
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    can agree with the first part there , but the law was given by Moses, it wasn't centuries , the law came through Moses, just before he died he wrote all the laws in a book, referenced either the book of Moses, or the book of the law, in scripture.

    here's why Moses was made mediator of the law he spoke the Ten Commandments to all the people....

    These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

    And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

    Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *5:22-28‬ *KJV‬‬


    so the people were so terrified they insisted Moses deal with God, and then Moses would command them whatever God had said and they said " well do whatever he says"



    the rest of the Old Testament is the prophets beginning with Samuel. And some historical records in other places, no one else gave the law but Moses. He mediated it from God who he spoke with in the cloud, to,the people who were too afraid to even hear God speak because like Adam , what your saying there Gods presence meant death in thier deceived minds they had Adams fallen nature. The prophets weren't giving the law, but they were pronouncing judgements , and worth much more they were promising the messiah, who would come and speak Gods true words of eternity. Jesus. Here's where that promise began , Moses himself actually delivered it.

    here's Gods answer to them being afraid and wanting Moses to mediate. The promise that Jesus would come speaking Gods word

    According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *18:16-19‬ *KJV‬‬

    we know this is Jesus because Peter tells us it is

    “For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
    **Acts‬ *3:22-24, 26‬ *KJV‬‬

    so even when the law was being given those years in the wilderness, there was already a promise that Jesus was going to superceed the laws authority. God made Jesus the mediator for the world, Moses is only a type or figure of the true giver of the Law of God. Who is of course Jesus. It's why he kept saying so much these words are not mine , but the father who sent me I'm speaking his words.

    it's why Jesus focuses so much on his doctrine and the importance of it.


    we're much more in agreement than I was seeing, sometimes we say the same thing differently ....
    I don't know? Some things we undoubtedly agree on, such as Jesus is the Savior. Other things sounds very different to how I see them.

    For example, you say the Prophets did not declare the Law. I totally disagree. They were all about the Law. That was the covenant Israel was under, and God was holding them to it.

    I think the relationship between Jesus and the Law is much closer than you think. Paul was only irritated by those who wanted to return to an empty law, void of the authority to forgive once Christ has completed those sacrifices. To follow a law no longer potent is an exercise in futility, and worse, shows a complete lack of understanding of what the Law was meant to do.

    The Law was not a system of faith only because it was based on how man was at that time, having a sin nature, and incapable of being perfect. God covered Israel's imperfection, but still required lawfulness until Christ came to end sin.

    So it wasn't as though the Law was bad, because it provided for Israel at that time in history, when they were sinful and in need of a temporary remedy. But the focus was always on faith, that beyond the curse of sin there was hope in a return to the tree of life.

  9. #39

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's one thing to quote Scriptures, and something different to understand and to explain them. We know the Law was unworkable over the long run. That doesn't mean it served no good purpose during the time it was in effect. If Faith, as a system, was the only system worth having, there never would've been the Law at all!

    I believe faith operated under the Law. It's just that the Law, as a system, was not adequate over the long haul, unless Christ came to complete it. He said he came to fulfill the Law!

    You make it sound as if Christ came with a gospel of the Kingdom *prior to* the Cross? He did, but this was preached while the Law was still in effect. He was not denouncing the Law--rather, he upheld the Law "until it was fully accomplished."

    Again, the Law was condemnatory only in the sense that Adamic guilt could not be revoked apart from Christ's sacrifice. Adamic guilt could only be temporarily ameliorated, preserving a covenant relationship between God and Man, until it was time for Christ to come.

    The Law required obedience. But perfect obedience was impossible for Man, who has a sin nature. So, as good as the Law was, in preserving a relationship between God and Man, it could not remove the stain of sin. The curse of sin, which was aimed at human disobedience, would always result, ie until Christ came.


    so your suggesting I don't understand the scriptures?

    our proper understanding comes from them. I can talk about what they say, I choose to present them so that others can not depend on what I say but see it for themselves. It's my belief that the bible, interprets the bible. Which is why I've asked for scriptures to support what you are saying. The more clear scripture, the better for me anyways....

    anyways bro, I actually see a lot of agreement between us and have recognized it's more of saying the same things differently, from a different perspective. I've never said the law served no good purpose lol, I've said it is good , right and holy....and is an essential part of Gods plan. it's meant to bring the world to Jesus Christ, that's a very good purpose. And that's the purpose it serves.

  10. #40

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know? Some things we undoubtedly agree on, such as Jesus is the Savior. Other things sounds very different to how I see them.

    For example, you say the Prophets did not declare the Law. I totally disagree. They were all about the Law. That was the covenant Israel was under, and God was holding them to it.

    I think the relationship between Jesus and the Law is much closer than you think. Paul was only irritated by those who wanted to return to an empty law, void of the authority to forgive once Christ has completed those sacrifices. To follow a law no longer potent is an exercise in futility, and worse, shows a complete lack of understanding of what the Law was meant to do.

    The Law was not a system of faith only because it was based on how man was at that time, having a sin nature, and incapable of being perfect. God covered Israel's imperfection, but still required lawfulness until Christ came to end sin.

    So it wasn't as though the Law was bad, because it provided for Israel at that time in history, when they were sinful and in need of a temporary remedy. But the focus was always on faith, that beyond the curse of sin there was hope in a return to the tree of life.
    no, again, I didn't say they didn't present the law, I said the entire law came through Moses. The prophets serve several purposes. One they were pronouncing judgements , I can show you in scripture but it seems like you'll explain how it's not what is there so I'll just say they pronounce Gods judgements upon sin, not only on Israel but upon the whole earth. If you need the scriptures let me know

    another purpose they served was to call the people to repentance, and obedience to the law of Moses, not to the purpose your thinking, but to prepare them for Jesus , which was the prophets main purpose, to prophecy of the messiah and his eternal kingdom.

    I think your hearing me say " the law of Moses is worthless" but that's not what I've said. It has its place in the plan of salvation, but there is no salvation found in it for anyone. It's meant for this purpose

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    But after that faith
    is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:19, 21-25‬ *KJV‬‬


    are you having trouble with the kjv language? See , to me I used to have my own thought on what each scripture meant, what I've learned is, my place is to,learn from Peter, Paul, John and most importantly Jesus. When Paul is speaking from revelation, it's not that I need to figure anything out, he's teaching the things from a fullness of understanding filled with the Holy Ghost, chosen specifically by Jesus Christ to reveal these things.

    so when he's explaining " what purpose then is the law for? The law was added because of sin, until the seed of promise should come. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid ...for if there was any law that could give righteousness, then it would have brought righteousness, rather than God putting Jesus to open shame. But by the law, all are confirmed under sin, so that the promise would come by Jesus Christ to all who believe.

    until faith came , we ( mankind) were kept under law, shut up u til faith came through Jesus. But now that faith came, were no longer under the law.



    so when your argument is that the law is of faith , it's hard for me to throw out what Paul says of things, and adjust to your thinking on it. Or again


    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    see this is what shapes my belief, whatever things the law says , it says to those under the law, that all the world may be held guilty before God, for no one can be justified by the works commanded in the law, by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    and so the law was there to lead us to Christ, how? By giving us the know,edge of sin, and teaching us about the destruction it brings to mankind. How does this bring a man to Jesus Christ? Who is there for our forgiveness , for our life .


    you know bro, I'm not claiming to know anything but that the bible has all the answers to the questions that the bible raises as we learn it. I'm always open to,learn things from brothers, but I need them to be teaching me something from the bible before I can really toss out the things I've learned from the bible.

  11. #41

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know? Some things we undoubtedly agree on, such as Jesus is the Savior. Other things sounds very different to how I see them.

    For example, you say the Prophets did not declare the Law. I totally disagree. They were all about the Law. That was the covenant Israel was under, and God was holding them to it.

    I think the relationship between Jesus and the Law is much closer than you think. Paul was only irritated by those who wanted to return to an empty law, void of the authority to forgive once Christ has completed those sacrifices. To follow a law no longer potent is an exercise in futility, and worse, shows a complete lack of understanding of what the Law was meant to do.

    The Law was not a system of faith only because it was based on how man was at that time, having a sin nature, and incapable of being perfect. God covered Israel's imperfection, but still required lawfulness until Christ came to end sin.

    So it wasn't as though the Law was bad, because it provided for Israel at that time in history, when they were sinful and in need of a temporary remedy. But the focus was always on faith, that beyond the curse of sin there was hope in a return to the tree of life.

    okay so then you now agree the law wasn't a system of faith. We've come closer together on this point.

    I'd say the reason it wasn't of faith , is what Paul says though makes perfect sense, it's based not on believing Gods word and acting in faith, but it's based on " if you do this you will surely die" .......so see it's about sin, and death by sin. Don't do this,,,if you do you must surely be put to death....don't do this other thing , if you do you will surely be cut off from the people...don't do this thing either, or you must surely be burned in the fire...don't do this other thing or you must surely be stoned, don't do this other thing, or you must surely be strangled...


    This doesn't reflect the gospel, it's the thing that brings us to the need for the gospel. It's meant to teach us 1 what sin is. 2 that even if we don't commit adultery, we lie, or steal, or covet, or do something within the law that proves we are sinners. So 1 we learn what are the actions of sin, 2 that as well as we think of ourselves beforehand, we will find serious flaws in our nature looking into a holy law. We learn sin is not acceptable, sinners must surely die, or be cut off from the people. We learn these kinds of things to the good purpose of creating a sincere need for salvation.


    if you save a man who's having a family picnic at a park, he's not going to accept your saving him, why would he? He's not doing anything wrong, to him your just some crazy guy talking about salvation.

    but if you go into death row, the night before a man is executed, and save him.....your going to find a receptive man, who's life just changed forever.

    a sinner can't be saved if they don't know thier a sinner. But when a sinner knows sin is condemned by al ighty God, and they understand I'm a sinner, what shall they do then? Do you think those folks would be ready and waiting for a savior especially if a lot of men came saying " one day I will send a savior who will bear your iniquity, by his wounds you will be healed, the punishments that will bring you peace , I will put on him...he's going to give his life in exchange for your lives...he's going to tell you my words of everlasting life, wait for him, hear his words because those are the words I will require, ...


    it's why the Pharisees had rejected him, they trusted in Moses, and the law for salvation, when it was only there for an accusation against them, a witness saying yes you are sinners to, they trusted in Moses, rather than the anointed messiah.

    “And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”
    **John‬ *5:38-40, 45-47‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses and the law is there for accusation or like I showed you " a witness against sinners" that is its purpose. Jesus is there for saving those sinners accused by the law, through his word of life, the gospel.

    that's why Jesus doesn't teach the same things Moses did.

  12. #42

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Another really good use for the law to those of us now in Christ.


    the gospel for instance forbids sexual immorality, but it really doesn't distinguish a whole lot what is sexually moral and what is not sexually moral, so if we're hazy on that we go to the law for the knowledge of sin. Just an example here note the theme sin and death here....


    “And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

    And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.


    a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

    And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast:

    they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

    And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people. And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

    And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless. And

    if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless. Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.”
    **Leviticus‬ *20:10-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    see there how it's a commandment to put the sinners to death? So it doesn't matter if they did it or not, if they didn't they broke a direct command from God to put them to death, or cut them off from the people...and again here you see how it repeatedly says " they shall bear thier iniquity? It doesn't say if they commit adultery then they bring a goat to the priest and he will sacrifice it, and it will bear thier iniquity....


    but we know that in Christ he bore our iniquity.

    the law is good , still has good use for,learning things that aren't addressed in the gospel, but it's intent was not ever for salvation, forgiveness, or a real relationship with God. Gods will is not that we are terrified to,hear him speak....but that we come close to him in faith knowing he is able to take away our sins and make us right before him. In order that we know him as a Father.

    his will isn't that he is high above looking down on terrified servants, but that those he loves come near to him and love him in return. That doesn't happen in the mosaic law, it can't.

  13. #43
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    noooo the law was never inept or flawed at all, it was perfect. The people , is , sinners are the issue. The law is good , right , holy we the people are inept. If we were holy, the law would never have been given, it's Gods response to mans sin. Meaning the sin which dwells within us in our hearts. Lust, greed, pride, hate, Unforgiveness, vanity ect....those are what causes us to sin, the law was not meant to heal mans sin, but to reveal our sin to us , and to teach us sin is death.

    it's like if you build a house , you first have to dig and lay the foundation. You can't just provide a savior of no one knows thier a sinner and what sin even is. First because man is proud and sort of thinks we're what everything revolves around, we have to be humbled understanding " I'm a sinner too just like the rest" the laws effect even right now, someone somewhere in the world, is beginning to understand through the law of Moses ....I'm a sinner too and sin is condemned by all mighty God. That's when the person is prepared to accept a savior

    unless we understand sin and its destruction, we'll never repent of it. The flesh loves sin, and without the knowledge of sin, we'll never even know it's wrong.

    “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:10-12, 19-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    until a sinner knows sin, there's never an ability to repent of it. Unless I know I'm a sinner, and sin is condemned, I could never accept a savior. Why would I if I don't realize I need one? Why would I stop committing sdultery unless I knew it is sin and is condemned? You know what I mean? Sinners are secretly in love with sin through the flesh. Until it's brought to our attention, we'll never realize it's our "Delilah "

    the law is good, and yes, they had a relationship with God through the law. But that relationship was already part of the plan, through thier disobedience, the world would be included under both the law, and the gospel. They were scattered into every nation on earth, there are and have been synagogues, and Jews reading and sharing the law in every nation, on earth even to this day the law is preached in the world by the descendants of those same Jews who were dispersed onto the world.


    and really the proof of that is the holy bible is everywhere people are. Anyone who has read the bible, has access to the law , and the gospel
    When I refer to the Law as "inept," I'm not saying it was "imperfect." I was saying it was incapable of providing complete legal justification for us in our sin. Only Jesus could do that.

    I agree with you that the Law served to show our sin so that we could repent of it. But still the Law was inept inasmuch as it could not deliver us from our sin completely. It could only temporarily cover Israel's sin so that they could remain in relationship with God under that covenant.

    The Law did *not* just show man what he could not do for himself, that he was a helpless sinner. Rather, it showed him that he could in fact do good, obey God, and find a basis for relationship with God through faith. It just could not *complete* our justification. It could not *eternally redeem* us from sin. Only Christ could do that.

  14. #44
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    so your suggesting I don't understand the scriptures?

    our proper understanding comes from them. I can talk about what they say, I choose to present them so that others can not depend on what I say but see it for themselves. It's my belief that the bible, interprets the bible. Which is why I've asked for scriptures to support what you are saying. The more clear scripture, the better for me anyways....

    anyways bro, I actually see a lot of agreement between us and have recognized it's more of saying the same things differently, from a different perspective. I've never said the law served no good purpose lol, I've said it is good , right and holy....and is an essential part of Gods plan. it's meant to bring the world to Jesus Christ, that's a very good purpose. And that's the purpose it serves.
    Right, I think you understand *some* of the Scriptures. In all honesty I've been in the Scriptures my entire life, and I'm retired now. I still have some trouble understanding Paul! So when Paul says the Law is not Faith, this is not easily understood, as even Peter acknowledged. Paul tends to summarize things in abbreviated, coded words.

    For Paul, Faith represents a system of eternal justification. Thus, the Law was not Faith, because it did not provide eternal satisfaction to God. It fell short of Faith because it was unable to grab hold of a means beyond human condemnation.

    This did not mean the Law did not operate through faith--it certainly did, as even Moses said, "the word is near you so that you may do it." This is *faith!*

    However, Paul was using "Faith" as a coded abbreviation for a *system of faith.* The Law operated by faith but could not accomplish what only Christ's system of faith could accomplish: complete justification.

    The Law represented human condemnation not because it didn't provide righteousness, but rather, because it condemned Man universally without the sacrifice of Christ being accomplished yet. If all Man had was the Law, he could do right all day long, and still be condemned as one having a sin nature worthy of death.

    So Paul wasn't stating the Law was horrible. He was just stating that now that it had been fulfilled by "Faith," it is entirely foolish to go back to a system of righteousness that fell short of complete justification. Without Christ's justification the Law was only a system of righteousness that kept Man guilty of the sin nature and worthy of death.

  15. #45
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    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    no, again, I didn't say they didn't present the law, I said the entire law came through Moses. The prophets serve several purposes. One they were pronouncing judgements , I can show you in scripture but it seems like you'll explain how it's not what is there so I'll just say they pronounce Gods judgements upon sin, not only on Israel but upon the whole earth. If you need the scriptures let me know

    another purpose they served was to call the people to repentance, and obedience to the law of Moses, not to the purpose your thinking, but to prepare them for Jesus , which was the prophets main purpose, to prophecy of the messiah and his eternal kingdom.

    I think your hearing me say " the law of Moses is worthless" but that's not what I've said. It has its place in the plan of salvation, but there is no salvation found in it for anyone. It's meant for this purpose

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    But after that faith
    is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:19, 21-25‬ *KJV‬‬


    are you having trouble with the kjv language? See , to me I used to have my own thought on what each scripture meant, what I've learned is, my place is to,learn from Peter, Paul, John and most importantly Jesus. When Paul is speaking from revelation, it's not that I need to figure anything out, he's teaching the things from a fullness of understanding filled with the Holy Ghost, chosen specifically by Jesus Christ to reveal these things.

    so when he's explaining " what purpose then is the law for? The law was added because of sin, until the seed of promise should come. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid ...for if there was any law that could give righteousness, then it would have brought righteousness, rather than God putting Jesus to open shame. But by the law, all are confirmed under sin, so that the promise would come by Jesus Christ to all who believe.

    until faith came , we ( mankind) were kept under law, shut up u til faith came through Jesus. But now that faith came, were no longer under the law.



    so when your argument is that the law is of faith , it's hard for me to throw out what Paul says of things, and adjust to your thinking on it. Or again


    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    see this is what shapes my belief, whatever things the law says , it says to those under the law, that all the world may be held guilty before God, for no one can be justified by the works commanded in the law, by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    and so the law was there to lead us to Christ, how? By giving us the know,edge of sin, and teaching us about the destruction it brings to mankind. How does this bring a man to Jesus Christ? Who is there for our forgiveness , for our life .


    you know bro, I'm not claiming to know anything but that the bible has all the answers to the questions that the bible raises as we learn it. I'm always open to,learn things from brothers, but I need them to be teaching me something from the bible before I can really toss out the things I've learned from the bible.
    I'm trying to explain what Paul means more than just quote the Bible. It isn't enough to quote the Bible. You have to know what Paul means. As even Peter said, Paul is difficult to understand. He abbreviates things, using words like "faith" to indicate Christ's system of faith. He uses the "condemnation of the Law" as an abbreviation for God's condemnation of the sin nature apart from Christ.

    The Prophets did not merely teach the Law to redirect Israel away from the Law to Christ. That's insensible! Rather, the Prophets exhorted Israel to follow the Law because in it the righteousness of Christ was subtly being revealed.

    That righteousness would, one day, be revealed in a very different kind of sacrifice, in Christ's death on the cross. But in the meantime it was essential for Israel to follow the righteousness of the Law. That was the preparation for Christ's justification, whether they understood all this or not.

    When Paul speaks of there not being "righteousness" under the Law, this is a coded expression for *Christ's righteousness,* which was eternal, and not transient, like the righteousness under the Law. It was not that the Law was not "righteousness." It was not that the Law did not represent *Christ's righteousness.* Rather, it was that until Christ actually came it was an *unfulfilled righteousness.*

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