Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 63

Thread: Condemnation, and a savior

  1. #1

    Condemnation, and a savior

    The commandment...


    Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.”
    **Exodus‬ *20:12‬ *KJV‬‬


    the sentance upon the sinner


    "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. " Leviticus 20:9


    "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them...
    And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.


    And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:” ( see Galatians 3:3)
    **Deuteronomy‬ *21:18, 20-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    if you have ever cursed at, disobeyed or refused to obey your parent after they tried reprimanding you....the law condemns you ....Jesus saved your life.




    the commandment....


    Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
    **Exodus‬ *20:14‬ *KJV‬‬


    Jesus explaining further concerning this commandment....


    “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
    **Matthew‬ *5:27-28‬ *KJV‬‬




    the sentance upon the sinner...




    "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:10


    if you have ever committed adultery, or if you have looked at someone with lust in your heart, the law condemns you...Jesus saved your life.


    the commandment....


    “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:”
    **Exodus‬ *20:8-10‬ *KJV‬‬




    the sentance upon the sinner....




    “Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
    **Exodus‬ *31:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    an example of this...




    “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation....


    And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.”
    **Numbers‬ *15:32-33, 35‬ *KJV‬‬


    if you have ever worked a seven day week , worked an entire weekend even as much as lifted one thing on a sabbath day, if you went on a weekend camping trip and made a fire both nights, or helped gather wood....the law condemns you....Jesus saved your life.


    Now consider the purpose of the law


    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-20‬ *KJV‬‬




    and now finally consider the gospel...


    “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”
    **Romans‬ *3:21-24‬ *KJV‬‬




    following the law of Moses is meant to hold you guilty of sin, and give you knowledge of sin and its destruction and death. It's not meant for salvation, but to hold us guilty , shut down our boasting, and condemn us......because, only someone who knows thier lost, needs a savior. Only someone facing condemnation, needs forgiveness, only the guilty can need and appreciate mercy.


    The first understanding in Christianity is the true understanding " I'm a sinner , I am already condemned by the law of God" ....that man will be looking for hope, forgiveness, salvation, a savior, a redeemer, he will look for repentance and light. Because without it he will surely die.


    The law leads us to the Christ because it condemns us for sin, and leaves us lost without Gods provision. And then comes the savior with redemption in like a flood of grace and truth, the message of the gospel is sweeter , it is more because we are made aware that were condemned unless he saves us, by his grace...like he did Noah and his family.


    remember he said " I will destroy man from the earth, man and beast".....but then Noah found grace in his eyes....and through this grace mankind was preserved even then. After this began the work of condemning man for sin, making them aware through the law of stone. And that gives a believer the reason to hold onto Jesus with all our might, without him we are dead for certain, no matter our works.


    Because the law has hundreds of things that are condemned, I've only used a couple examples in the end if one knows the law " all have sinned " the issue is when people don't know the law, and insist it somehow offers salvation, confusing to try to obey Moses and Jesus they teach contrary doctrine, for contrary purposes. Both part of Gods plan to save mankind.


    the law condemns all through the knowledge of sin, and Jesus is the only name under heaven who can remove the condemnation, and teach us the gospel. The laws message is " you sinners will surely die" the gospels message is " if you will believe in me and hear my word, you will surely live forever"


    God bless

  2. #2

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Just a bit of support

    “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”
    **Acts‬ *13:33, 38-41‬ *KJV‬‬

    that warning is pretty stark. They were told way back in the prophets all along, the day would come when the Messiah called Christ, would come with salvation, and mostly the Jews of the law rejected him when he came. Paul is warning believers not to disbelieve Jesus message because of the law of Moses, referring to one of the warnings like this in the prophets.

    Peter says all the prophets spoke forth of the days of the gospel since the world began, I've actually checked it out, and they do all speak forward of the messiah. Including Genesis. Even Abraham spoke of him, melchezidek brings forth bread and wine, speaking forth of communion when Abraham receives the blessing....

    “And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

    Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
    **Acts‬ *3:17-26‬ *KJV‬‬


    the prophets foretell basically everything in the gospel Jesus miracles and hearings, his teaching , receiving the spirit from God, him receiving all the authority of judgement, his crucifixion and resurrection, his birth, his family fleeing to Egypt, his coming from galilee preaching good tidings and forgiveness , mercy and salvation...deliverance, even tiny things like him receiving vinegar to drink, his garments being taken and cast lots for his coat as he hung on the cross, his thirst on the cross, even glimpses into what he felt and though on the cross see psalm 22 ,

    it was always foretold to the details so they wouldn't reject him when he came with the salvation message. Satan used the law against man, deceiving us and creating every sinful desire, God used this to reveal to us the bitterness and rot of sin to mankind. Sin is why the world is so dark and so many evils are done every second somewhere someone is killing, lying, shearing, committing adultery, abusing others, hurting, bearing false witness ect....sin caused that, and it caused it all through mankind. Notice Satan doesn't just appear as a dragon or some hideous beast.....he works through those willing to serve him, like God does.


    it's all centered directly on the four gospels, everything he taught and did,my hat is the salvation of God.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    following the law of Moses is meant to hold you guilty of sin, and give you knowledge of sin and its destruction and death. It's not meant for salvation, but to hold us guilty , shut down our boasting, and condemn us......because, only someone who knows thier lost, needs a savior. Only someone facing condemnation, needs forgiveness, only the guilty can need and appreciate mercy.
    I don't quite see it that way. The Law, according to David, was beautiful, merciful, kind, and a blessing. It brought death upon all men, including good men, because the curse of sin was upon all men. But the Law brought a temporary reprieve until Christ could come and legally atone for our sin for all eternity.

    The Law was therefore a temporary means of atonement, to keep Israel in relationship with God. But the New Covenant of Christ was a permanent fix.

    All the sins that were worthy of death by punishment reflect more serious acts of rebellion. The "rebellious son" is not the son who temporarily makes a rebellious decision, such as the Prodigal Son, who Jesus referred to, still under the Law. Rather, the "rebellious son" refers to one who is determined to introduce idolatry and immorality into Israel, against all warning, against all correction.

    The sins that are judged with judgmental death refer to those who commit sins without casting themselves upon the mercy of God. This is not for those who make mistakes in judgment. Some "mistakes" really reflect an irreligiosity in some men, causing them to suffer the punishment of premature death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    The first understanding in Christianity is the true understanding " I'm a sinner , I am already condemned by the law of God" ....that man will be looking for hope, forgiveness, salvation, a savior, a redeemer, he will look for repentance and light. Because without it he will surely die.
    We should all know, by revelation of the word of God and by revelation to our conscience, that we are sinners and deserving of punishment. We should be in pursuit of regular penance. When the message of Christ comes to us we may receive him in our heart, and that reservoir of his righteousness covers us when we rely upon it regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    The law leads us to the Christ because it condemns us for sin, and leaves us lost without Gods provision. And then comes the savior with redemption in like a flood of grace and truth, the message of the gospel is sweeter , it is more because we are made aware that were condemned unless he saves us, by his grace...like he did Noah and his family.
    Since we carry around a natural sense of guilt the Gospel message should appeal to us as the cure for our guilty conscience. And the free flow of righteousness from Christ through the Spirit and into our soul encourages us to stay on the narrow path from that point on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    remember he said " I will destroy man from the earth, man and beast".....but then Noah found grace in his eyes....and through this grace mankind was preserved even then. After this began the work of condemning man for sin, making them aware through the law of stone. And that gives a believer the reason to hold onto Jesus with all our might, without him we are dead for certain, no matter our works.
    Our works are very important to God. That's why He put a reservoir of His righteousness within us, so that we do it and avoid judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    Because the law has hundreds of things that are condemned, I've only used a couple examples in the end if one knows the law " all have sinned " the issue is when people don't know the law, and insist it somehow offers salvation, confusing to try to obey Moses and Jesus they teach contrary doctrine, for contrary purposes. Both part of Gods plan to save mankind.
    The testimony of the Law is that all sinners must perish, and that we are all sinners. But it is also a stern warning against rebels who resist correction. Those are the ones who suffer premature judgment and who may indeed suffer eternal judgment. Death itself is *not* eternal judgment. The Law shows us that we all must die, but can have our sins atoned for. This gave Israel hope that they could be redeemed from death itself, through the resurrection of the just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the law condemns all through the knowledge of sin, and Jesus is the only name under heaven who can remove the condemnation, and teach us the gospel. The laws message is " you sinners will surely die" the gospels message is " if you will believe in me and hear my word, you will surely live forever"
    God bless
    I certainly agree with some of this. I would just differentiate between the fact we are sinners universally and the fact that some sins are judged as rebellion. There is, undoubtedly, a difference. And the Law made that plain.

  4. #4

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't quite see it that way. The Law, according to David, was beautiful, merciful, kind, and a blessing. It brought death upon all men, including good men, because the curse of sin was upon all men. But the Law brought a temporary reprieve until Christ could come and legally atone for our sin for all eternity.

    The Law was therefore a temporary means of atonement, to keep Israel in relationship with God. But the New Covenant of Christ was a permanent fix.

    All the sins that were worthy of death by punishment reflect more serious acts of rebellion. The "rebellious son" is not the son who temporarily makes a rebellious decision, such as the Prodigal Son, who Jesus referred to, still under the Law. Rather, the "rebellious son" refers to one who is determined to introduce idolatry and immorality into Israel, against all warning, against all correction.

    The sins that are judged with judgmental death refer to those who commit sins without casting themselves upon the mercy of God. This is not for those who make mistakes in judgment. Some "mistakes" really reflect an irreligiosity in some men, causing them to suffer the punishment of premature death.



    We should all know, by revelation of the word of God and by revelation to our conscience, that we are sinners and deserving of punishment. We should be in pursuit of regular penance. When the message of Christ comes to us we may receive him in our heart, and that reservoir of his righteousness covers us when we rely upon it regularly.



    Since we carry around a natural sense of guilt the Gospel message should appeal to us as the cure for our guilty conscience. And the free flow of righteousness from Christ through the Spirit and into our soul encourages us to stay on the narrow path from that point on.



    Our works are very important to God. That's why He put a reservoir of His righteousness within us, so that we do it and avoid judgment.



    The testimony of the Law is that all sinners must perish, and that we are all sinners. But it is also a stern warning against rebels who resist correction. Those are the ones who suffer premature judgment and who may indeed suffer eternal judgment. Death itself is *not* eternal judgment. The Law shows us that we all must die, but can have our sins atoned for. This gave Israel hope that they could be redeemed from death itself, through the resurrection of the just.



    I certainly agree with some of this. I would just differentiate between the fact we are sinners universally and the fact that some sins are judged as rebellion. There is, undoubtedly, a difference. And the Law made that plain.

    it's sort of why I used clear scripture all the way through, it does t matter how I see it, it matters what's taught in scripture. I sort of think it's best to learn what the scripture says in the gospel, from those appointed by Jesus to teach these things. I'm nothing, but I do believe what's there.


    Paul says clearly in those scriptures " whatever the law says.......is to the intent that all the world is held guilty before God. And he says no one can ever be justified by the things in the mosaic law, but rather by the law, comes knowledge of sin. Sort of not my point , Paul's point which he makes many times. To hold the world guilty before God....why would he do that? If not to bring man to the understanding " that messiah he keeps promising who's going to suffer my punishments in order to bring me peace...I need that guy because I'm guilty.

    the thing is the law had its own atonement sacrifices, those aren't given anymore nor accepted by God, he stopped accepting thier sacrifice in the o.t. So there's no forgiveness for the slightest sin according to the covenant which was set in force by those animal sacrifices.

    The words of the law, are tied to the blood of animals. When Moses gave the law he slaughtered the bullocks and other beasts, and took the blood sprinkling both the book of the law, and the people, even things in the temple. Saying " this is the blood of the covenant enjoined to you" This is when the law was set in place as the authority, when thier blood was sprinkled on the people and the book. All the law is atoned for all its sacrifices are written there from a dove, to a bullocks for each individual purpose. That's the old covenant law, and blood.


    Jesus blood was shed for the same purpose, for the new covenant. Like Moses did first he taught the gospel all the words and commands of the lord, then he explained just before his sacrifice, " this is the blood of the New Testament which is shed for many" then he went and shed his blood of the eternal covenant, sprinkling the people and himself.


    it's to contrary laws, one is meant like Paul says, to hold all the world guilty before God, to the intent that all men must come to His son, in order to be forgiven. It can't happen by sacrificing a bullocks or ram anymore those things were temporal, like the law of Moses, it only has authority, until someone turns to Christ, people turn to Christ for salvation, forgiveness, mercy, strength, love acceptance....

    those things are scarce in the law, how many times over God slaughtered the rebellious people then under that law should make everyone clearly understand we're not a part of the ancient law of sin and death. But we are those who have sinned already , are already unclean even a single lie....it can't be atoned for by us in any way, only Jesus blood is the atonement sacrifice accepted by God. We can try to sacrifice a chicken, but we're just slaughtering an animal and will end up having a chicken dinner, yet not atoned for our sin, plus now....we killed an animal trying to cover our own sin lol just joking man.


    but the point is, you have two covenants, to words to keep , to sets of directives to obey, and at many points they are contrary completely. Because one is meant to condemn and hold guilty mankind, sinners facing a holy law doesn't work but to condemn them as sinners. but of your message then becomes " I know you have sinned, I came to save you from it, I came to offer forgiveness to those who will believe "

    you then are able to bring sinners to repentance, not then put them back under the law that cannot justify anyone and requires you to condemn other sinners, but you've given them a new law, a new way, a way that teaches better things. Do you see where Jesus actually stopped Pharisees from obeying the command in the law that adulterers must be put to death?

    or do you see Jesus allowing his disciples to gather corn on a sabbath?

    those things are death sentences according to Moses law, immediately by the command of God through Moses. In the law, it was a sin of death, not to put them to death, whoever covered up someone's sins were guilty as they were. Yet Jesus teaches " as many times as someone offends, forgive thier sin"

    the law set forth judges among the people, in Chrost there is but one judge of people, Jesus. Who teaches his disciples

    " do not judge and you will not be judged, do not condemn and you will not be condemned, forgive and you will be forgiven"

    again how starkly different is that from Moses doctrine? Forgiveness was available not through saying "I'm sorry , please forgive me" but through the shedding of animal blood. That was the only source of forgiveness. Jesus who shed his blood for forgiveness, not just mine and yours, but even our enemies or that guy who just always insults us, or offends somehow....Jesus bled for,his forgiveness too. Our directive isn't stone the sinners....it's forgive the sinners and spread my word to people about forgiveness through faith.


    thier very very different the two covenant laws. One is certain death to every man and never once promises life after death even if it's kept perfectly. It offers long blessed earthly life...then we go rest with the fathers. The truth is every man who lived under the law of Moses, besides Elijah, died and never raised up again. But we're taught, come to me believe in me , hear my word, follow my word keep faith in me....and I will give you life eternal"


    one is death to mankind because it relies on how good we are. That's the law of Moses not faith but self righteousness, darkness and sin. But the gospel is faith, which leads to righteousness unfeigned where it's not keeping rules in order to not die....but it becomes learning and growing in the nature of Gods son, which is imparted to us through the gospel, and faith in him. Through his teachings. You notice how Jesus teaches mostly about the inner things ?


    the law says " don't commit adultery"

    Jesus says " I tell you if you look at someone with lust in your heart, you already have committed adultery"


    do you see why? If I have faith in Jesus , if I believe he is the Christ, the son of God who died for me.....and I hear him teaching this, it will if I accept it, get into my mind and I'll begin seeing the lust that causes someone to commit adultery, and as I grow I'm able to stop that in me before it ever even becomes a temptation so , if I deal with what Jesus said, my heart and make sure when I see women, I see children of God and not an object of lust.....I'll never have a reason or temptation to commit adultery......it's the solution because sin comes from in our hearts

    “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
    **Mark‬ *7:21-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    sin isn't just an action, it's rooted in our minds and hearts, the gospel is focused on how we think , and because Jesus has won our heart and we believe he is who scripture says he is, his words carry the wieght of my Lord who died to win me over. He focuses on lust in the heart....because that's where adultery comes. From. He focuses on grudges, hate, and unsettled disputes , greed ect because those things in our minds and hearts is what cause us to sin. If I don't hate and hold things against people I won't be committing violence or killing anyone....

    Jesus is about calling people to repentance , but he doesn't just say " repent" he teaches his followers how to actually repent and be set free inside. If our hearts are right ,our actions will be right. And without the law condemning us, we're able to keep it by the new nature of our hearts imparted to us through the gospel. The end of the law, is to treat others fairly, mercifully, kindly, ect...treat people with love. to really do that though one has to accept the gospel, because we gotta treat people the way Jesus said....he's the Lord who suffered to save us.

  5. #5

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't quite see it that way. The Law, according to David, was beautiful, merciful, kind, and a blessing. It brought death upon all men, including good men, because the curse of sin was upon all men. But the Law brought a temporary reprieve until Christ could come and legally atone for our sin for all eternity.

    The Law was therefore a temporary means of atonement, to keep Israel in relationship with God. But the New Covenant of Christ was a permanent fix.

    All the sins that were worthy of death by punishment reflect more serious acts of rebellion. The "rebellious son" is not the son who temporarily makes a rebellious decision, such as the Prodigal Son, who Jesus referred to, still under the Law. Rather, the "rebellious son" refers to one who is determined to introduce idolatry and immorality into Israel, against all warning, against all correction.

    The sins that are judged with judgmental death refer to those who commit sins without casting themselves upon the mercy of God. This is not for those who make mistakes in judgment. Some "mistakes" really reflect an irreligiosity in some men, causing them to suffer the punishment of premature death.



    We should all know, by revelation of the word of God and by revelation to our conscience, that we are sinners and deserving of punishment. We should be in pursuit of regular penance. When the message of Christ comes to us we may receive him in our heart, and that reservoir of his righteousness covers us when we rely upon it regularly.



    Since we carry around a natural sense of guilt the Gospel message should appeal to us as the cure for our guilty conscience. And the free flow of righteousness from Christ through the Spirit and into our soul encourages us to stay on the narrow path from that point on.



    Our works are very important to God. That's why He put a reservoir of His righteousness within us, so that we do it and avoid judgment.



    The testimony of the Law is that all sinners must perish, and that we are all sinners. But it is also a stern warning against rebels who resist correction. Those are the ones who suffer premature judgment and who may indeed suffer eternal judgment. Death itself is *not* eternal judgment. The Law shows us that we all must die, but can have our sins atoned for. This gave Israel hope that they could be redeemed from death itself, through the resurrection of the just.



    I certainly agree with some of this. I would just differentiate between the fact we are sinners universally and the fact that some sins are judged as rebellion. There is, undoubtedly, a difference. And the Law made that plain.

    sure the law differentiates between sins but consider this brother James teaches something important regarding the "law"

    “If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.”
    **James‬ *2:8-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    so if I've transgressed even one point of the law...I'm guilty of breaking it all. God said don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't kill, don't abuse, don't treat people unfairly in anyway ect...if I've ever done anything he said don't do in the law....according to James I'm guilty of breaking the whole law of God....

    this is the reason a liar, can't judge a thief, and a thief can't judge an adulterer, and an adulterer can't judge anyone else for a different sin....in the law that's just what happened sinners stoning sinners....what's Jesus say about it?

    " let he who is without sin cast the stone at the adulterer, he said this to very devout religious, self righteous men. And what happened? This adulterer was caught in the very act, the law makes no way out for her, she was to be stoned to death and hanged on a tree as a curse and warning to all adulterers........but Jesus spoke to them not about her guilt, but about thier own sins. And one by one the elders began dropping the stones and walking away because they were convicted by thier own conscience.


    imagine your this woman, these men come in catch you doing a crime that comes with a death sentance, drag you out into public toss you in the dirt at Jesus feet. This woman is every Christian bro, it's the position were all in, were guilty of defiling Gods law, and were condemned , by the law were dead with no way out. But imagine she knows she's in Jerusalem she knows the law of adultery for sure. Imagine here's this guy who's going around preachingGids word healing folks so you know he's legit.....imagine her fear she knows Gods law said she must surely be put to death....

    but Jesus says " woman where are your accusers? She looks around there's no one lord....and his holiness response " neither do I condemn you, now go and leave your life of sin " can you imagine this woman's state of mind and how close she came to a brutal death? And understanding it's Jesus who saved her.......how dedicated to him must she have been after this.

    we're all in her place , the law condemns and holds guilty, for them then, your right it was a temporary way to relate to God...but look how different he is in that law. When he appeared on Sinai, he commanded them " if anyone even so much as touches the base of is mountain, they must surely be put to death"....when Jesus came he sat down on the mount, and called the sinners , publicans, all the people to him. It's all a plan to save mankind and redeem us to Gods righteousness his true image of goodness and holiness.



    see up in the op where Paul's talking about the law being there to hold us guilty and no one is justified by it, but it gives the knowledge of sin? Look what he says next


    “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. <<<< the law did that in order for God to do this....


    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
    **Romans‬ *3:19-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    because the law hold the world guilty, it's a truth that all have sinned and fallen short of his glory or "his image" so according to the law were all lost having broken the whole law with just one transgression. The only purpose for this is to bring all men to the need for Jesus , the only one who can redeem our glory, and lives which we gave away through sin. Just like that woman, the law condemned her, and that condemnation brought her to Jesus feet.....where he stopped them from carrying out the demand of the law, and forgave her even when he did have the right to cast a stone at her and follow Moses law putting her to death, he forgave her because he didn't come to condemn us, but to save us from the condemnation.



    thanks for the additions , I'm sorry I ramble on a lot, i don't really disagree with much of what you said either bro.....I think none of us have everything figured out, but it's great to see people studying and sharing thier ideas and observations....that's all I do, in the end well all be made full in knowledge, but for now we just press forward toward the goal understanding as grown as we are.....we're not yet complets

  6. #6

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't quite see it that way. The Law, according to David, was beautiful, merciful, kind, and a blessing. It brought death upon all men, including good men, because the curse of sin was upon all men. But the Law brought a temporary reprieve until Christ could come and legally atone for our sin for all eternity.

    The Law was therefore a temporary means of atonement, to keep Israel in relationship with God. But the New Covenant of Christ was a permanent fix.

    All the sins that were worthy of death by punishment reflect more serious acts of rebellion. The "rebellious son" is not the son who temporarily makes a rebellious decision, such as the Prodigal Son, who Jesus referred to, still under the Law. Rather, the "rebellious son" refers to one who is determined to introduce idolatry and immorality into Israel, against all warning, against all correction.

    The sins that are judged with judgmental death refer to those who commit sins without casting themselves upon the mercy of God. This is not for those who make mistakes in judgment. Some "mistakes" really reflect an irreligiosity in some men, causing them to suffer the punishment of premature death.



    We should all know, by revelation of the word of God and by revelation to our conscience, that we are sinners and deserving of punishment. We should be in pursuit of regular penance. When the message of Christ comes to us we may receive him in our heart, and that reservoir of his righteousness covers us when we rely upon it regularly.



    Since we carry around a natural sense of guilt the Gospel message should appeal to us as the cure for our guilty conscience. And the free flow of righteousness from Christ through the Spirit and into our soul encourages us to stay on the narrow path from that point on.



    Our works are very important to God. That's why He put a reservoir of His righteousness within us, so that we do it and avoid judgment.



    The testimony of the Law is that all sinners must perish, and that we are all sinners. But it is also a stern warning against rebels who resist correction. Those are the ones who suffer premature judgment and who may indeed suffer eternal judgment. Death itself is *not* eternal judgment. The Law shows us that we all must die, but can have our sins atoned for. This gave Israel hope that they could be redeemed from death itself, through the resurrection of the just.



    I certainly agree with some of this. I would just differentiate between the fact we are sinners universally and the fact that some sins are judged as rebellion. There is, undoubtedly, a difference. And the Law made that plain.

    one thing I missed addressing in my rants lol

    yes our works are very important, but we're not of the laws works, our works are found in the gospel, it's different doctrine. We obey Jesus not Moses, thier contrary because one is for holding men guilty, the other is for saving those guilty folks. I never meant to inference " salvation is something we get and what we do , how we live then doesn't matter" noooo I am noooo hyper gracer trust me lol. My point is that there are works in the law of Moses, and there are commands by Jesus in the gospel, we failed to keep Moses law it says we're sinners condemned.

    our savior came with the eternal words, the words of authority, even Moses while writing the law spoke of Jesus who would one day come and all people were to heed HIS word according to Peter and Paul, that's a promise from Moses concerning Jesus. Obedience is ultra important I totally agree.....the question is what do we obey ? Do we follow the law which cannot jistify? Meant to make us guilty? Or do we operate in the doctrine of our savior Jesus who repeatedly claimed his words were those of God, in all authority, and offer eternal life? I've chosen Jesus probably because I'm a sinner, I'm like that woman who had no hope when she was caught in adultery, and I was aware of that a long time ago.

    so for me the message " don't do all these things" just contradicts my nature, I used to carry lust, hate, violence, addiction and many other things, all I saw in Moses was I'm done for my already lost....but Jesus came explaining " I forgive your sins , I love you so much , look I'm dying because you were condemned, hear me, trust me, I'll save you, I know my Father he's God, trust me he sent me to save you and teach you, to comfort you and lead you, to show you how to overcome your sins so you don't die in them"


    his teachings are what we really need once we know about his blood shed for our sins and resurrection and exaltation to the heavens. Once we believe that, his words become our new life, simply because what the bible says is " Jesus is the lord of all, he has all the authority, his words are the judgement of God" if I believe he died and rose and yet will not accept his words......I'm in serious trouble, and I would say it reveals a shallow or a bit hollow faith, to believe he died for me, but well you know he says " I need to stop looking at women with lust in my heart and mind, so I don't commit adultery or some sexual sin" but I don't buy that part.....that would just show my own depth of faith or rather lack of faith.


    faith brings us into repentance in Christ, faith brings us into obedience in Christ, the laws part was to bring the world to Jesus, through condemnation of our sin.


    what works are we looking for?

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    The law can't justify even if we keep it the best we can. It's not meant to. Jesus was hanged on a tree because sinners were often hanged on a tree as a curse, he died for sinners condemned by the law, cursed by thier failure to keep the whole law " all things written in this book of the law he says"


    the atonement yearly sacrifices were for people unaware of thier sins, tiny miniscule things with lesser punishments from death, they still had to be sacrificed for because they WERE sinners, it is part of humanity to have a pre disposition towards rebellion, were tempted because there's some darkness in us all, some have more some have less, but it's there in all of us. The answer is to let in the light

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    it's sort of why I used clear scripture all the way through, it does t matter how I see it, it matters what's taught in scripture. I sort of think it's best to learn what the scripture says in the gospel, from those appointed by Jesus to teach these things. I'm nothing, but I do believe what's there.

    Paul says clearly in those scriptures " whatever the law says.......is to the intent that all the world is held guilty before God. And he says no one can ever be justified by the things in the mosaic law, but rather by the law, comes knowledge of sin.
    What Paul is intimating is not that the Law had no efficacy in restraining sin, or in repairing damaged relations between God and Israel. Rather, Paul is stating, as fact, that *eternal justification* could not come by the Law because once the die had been cast against human sin, nothing could justify apart from an entirely new creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    Sort of not my point , Paul's point which he makes many times. To hold the world guilty before God....why would he do that? If not to bring man to the understanding " that messiah he keeps promising who's going to suffer my punishments in order to bring me peace...I need that guy because I'm guilty.
    Well for sure--because the die has been cast--we're guilty sinners--we must rely on deliverance from outside of the guilty human race. We need *God's deliverance.* We cannot deliver ourselves, since we ourselves are tainted.

    But again, the Law did not prevent God from working with sinners, nor was it incapable of repairing relations between Israel and Himself until a permanent fix could be made. That's the point I think you may not be seeing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the thing is the law had its own atonement sacrifices, those aren't given anymore nor accepted by God, he stopped accepting thier sacrifice in the o.t. So there's no forgiveness for the slightest sin according to the covenant which was set in force by those animal sacrifices.
    We're agreed that OT sacrifices are no longer in effect. That has not been in dispute at all. My question is: Are you saying that OT sacrifices were *never* in effect, or never were effective in combating the problem of human sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    The words of the law, are tied to the blood of animals. When Moses gave the law he slaughtered the bullocks and other beasts, and took the blood sprinkling both the book of the law, and the people, even things in the temple. Saying " this is the blood of the covenant enjoined to you" This is when the law was set in place as the authority, when thier blood was sprinkled on the people and the book. All the law is atoned for all its sacrifices are written there from a dove, to a bullocks for each individual purpose. That's the old covenant law, and blood.

    Jesus blood was shed for the same purpose, for the new covenant. Like Moses did first he taught the gospel all the words and commands of the lord, then he explained just before his sacrifice, " this is the blood of the New Testament which is shed for many" then he went and shed his blood of the eternal covenant, sprinkling the people and himself.
    Yes, good comparison! My point is that they were both useful. It's just that the NT system was a permanent fix, whereas the OT system was a temporary fix. The Law had its usefulness. It wasn't just to condemn Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    it's to contrary laws, one is meant like Paul says, to hold all the world guilty before God, to the intent that all men must come to His son, in order to be forgiven. It can't happen by sacrificing a bullocks or ram anymore those things were temporal, like the law of Moses, it only has authority, until someone turns to Christ, people turn to Christ for salvation, forgiveness, mercy, strength, love acceptance....

    those things are scarce in the law, how many times over God slaughtered the rebellious people then under that law should make everyone clearly understand we're not a part of the ancient law of sin and death.
    I don't believe God had a different sense of justice under the Law than He now has under Christ! God didn't just "slaughter" men under the Law because He was cruel under that system! That smacks of Marcianism, which holds that the God of the OT is evil, whereas the God of the NT is merciful and kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    But we are those who have sinned already , are already unclean even a single lie....it can't be atoned for by us in any way, only Jesus blood is the atonement sacrifice accepted by God. We can try to sacrifice a chicken, but we're just slaughtering an animal and will end up having a chicken dinner, yet not atoned for our sin, plus now....we killed an animal trying to cover our own sin lol just joking man.
    We're confusing 2 issues here. We both agree that the OT system of animal sacrifice is no longer in effect and never could bring a permanent fix. However, there is the issue whether God was different under the OT and "slaughtered" people, simply because that system was merciless?

    God was never merciless! Under the Law there was lots of mercy. Animal sacrifices were precisely for the purpose of granting mercy. The Law was to keep people on the right course with God so that they would remain in a covenant of blessing with Him. It was a workable system, even if not a permanent fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    but the point is, you have two covenants, to words to keep , to sets of directives to obey, and at many points they are contrary completely. Because one is meant to condemn and hold guilty mankind, sinners facing a holy law doesn't work but to condemn them as sinners. but of your message then becomes " I know you have sinned, I came to save you from it, I came to offer forgiveness to those who will believe "
    We agree that OT sacrifice and law were not a permanent fix for human sin. No matter how good that system was--and it was good--it could not permanently remove the stain of sin, because the sin nature remains fixed within man. The Law served to show that reality. Christ fixes this problem permanently because it is a system of Grace--it operates to keep man in relationship with God even though man still has a sin nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    you then are able to bring sinners to repentance, not then put them back under the law that cannot justify anyone and requires you to condemn other sinners, but you've given them a new law, a new way, a way that teaches better things. Do you see where Jesus actually stopped Pharisees from obeying the command in the law that adulterers must be put to death?
    No, I don't see that. Jesus was not dismantling the Law, as even he said, "I am come to fulfil the Law." He was, however, pointing out that the Law was not the opposite of Mercy, which is what you seem to be saying. In doing so, you are promoting anarchy and license. You may not be openly promoting this, but in denying Law, this is what you inadvertently are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    or do you see Jesus allowing his disciples to gather corn on a sabbath?

    those things are death sentences according to Moses law, immediately by the command of God through Moses. In the law, it was a sin of death, not to put them to death, whoever covered up someone's sins were guilty as they were. Yet Jesus teaches " as many times as someone offends, forgive thier sin"
    No, the Law was to be interpreted in particular contexts, as Jesus indicated. There was always room for judicial discretion. Much of the Law was based on *intent.* It is difficult to codify "intent," requiring that God or judges make the determination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the law set forth judges among the people, in Chrost there is but one judge of people, Jesus. Who teaches his disciples

    " do not judge and you will not be judged, do not condemn and you will not be condemned, forgive and you will be forgiven"

    again how starkly different is that from Moses doctrine? Forgiveness was available not through saying "I'm sorry , please forgive me" but through the shedding of animal blood. That was the only source of forgiveness. Jesus who shed his blood for forgiveness, not just mine and yours, but even our enemies or that guy who just always insults us, or offends somehow....Jesus bled for,his forgiveness too. Our directive isn't stone the sinners....it's forgive the sinners and spread my word to people about forgiveness through faith.
    I fail to see the "stark difference" between the covenants in this respect. Animal sacrifices did not bring merciless, non-judicial judgment. And NT law does not eliminate the need for judgment against sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    thier very very different the two covenant laws. One is certain death to every man and never once promises life after death even if it's kept perfectly. It offers long blessed earthly life...then we go rest with the fathers. The truth is every man who lived under the law of Moses, besides Elijah, died and never raised up again. But we're taught, come to me believe in me , hear my word, follow my word keep faith in me....and I will give you life eternal"
    The sentence of death under the Law is the same as the sentence of death at the cross of Christ! They both condemn humanity to death. All must die! This is not a difference in the 2 testaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    one is death to mankind because it relies on how good we are. That's the law of Moses not faith but self righteousness, darkness and sin. But the gospel is faith, which leads to righteousness unfeigned where it's not keeping rules in order to not die....but it becomes learning and growing in the nature of Gods son, which is imparted to us through the gospel, and faith in him. Through his teachings. You notice how Jesus teaches mostly about the inner things ?
    The Old Covenant had hope in a resurrection of the Just, and the New Covenant accepts the universal judgment of death for all of mankind. Where is the big difference here between the 2 covenants? The *only* difference is not a matter of divine law, but only of the temporary substitution of material symbols for the eventual final atonement of man. In both cases God taught man that provision had to be made on behalf of sinful man by means of God's own tool, Messiah himself. There is no difference between the covenants in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the law says " don't commit adultery"

    Jesus says " I tell you if you look at someone with lust in your heart, you already have committed adultery"

    do you see why? If I have faith in Jesus , if I believe he is the Christ, the son of God who died for me.....and I hear him teaching this, it will if I accept it, get into my mind and I'll begin seeing the lust that causes someone to commit adultery, and as I grow I'm able to stop that in me before it ever even becomes a temptation so , if I deal with what Jesus said, my heart and make sure when I see women, I see children of God and not an object of lust.....I'll never have a reason or temptation to commit adultery......it's the solution because sin comes from in our hearts
    We have the same word of God operating in us today as Israel had under the OT system. Remember, Moses told Israel that "God's word is near you, so that you may do it." It doesn't fix the fact we still have the sin nature. But it does give us an alternative route to acting upon that sinful compulsion. Again, there is no difference here between the 2 covenants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
    **Mark‬ *7:21-23‬ *KJV‬‬

    sin isn't just an action, it's rooted in our minds and hearts, the gospel is focused on how we think , and because Jesus has won our heart and we believe he is who scripture says he is, his words carry the wieght of my Lord who died to win me over. He focuses on lust in the heart....because that's where adultery comes. From. He focuses on grudges, hate, and unsettled disputes , greed ect because those things in our minds and hearts is what cause us to sin. If I don't hate and hold things against people I won't be committing violence or killing anyone....

    Jesus is about calling people to repentance , but he doesn't just say " repent" he teaches his followers how to actually repent and be set free inside. If our hearts are right ,our actions will be right. And without the law condemning us, we're able to keep it by the new nature of our hearts imparted to us through the gospel. The end of the law, is to treat others fairly, mercifully, kindly, ect...treat people with love. to really do that though one has to accept the gospel, because we gotta treat people the way Jesus said....he's the Lord who suffered to save us.
    This teaching of repentance from sin was equally in the OT as under the NT. The OT was not cruel, as opposed to a "kind, gentler" NT. God is the same in both systems. Teaching was the same in both covenants. Repentance and turning to righteousness was the same in both testaments.

    The big difference was with the elements used. The Old Covenant utilized material symbols of what in the NT was the man Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifices simply represented Israel's need to rely on God's legal remedy to forgive sin. Temporary fixes came by animal atonement. The permanent fix, however, came by Christ's death on the cross. No real difference in terms of divine justice.

  8. #8

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What Paul is intimating is not that the Law had no efficacy in restraining sin, or in repairing damaged relations between God and Israel. Rather, Paul is stating, as fact, that *eternal justification* could not come by the Law because once the die had been cast against human sin, nothing could justify apart from an entirely new creation.



    Well for sure--because the die has been cast--we're guilty sinners--we must rely on deliverance from outside of the guilty human race. We need *God's deliverance.* We cannot deliver ourselves, since we ourselves are tainted.

    But again, the Law did not prevent God from working with sinners, nor was it incapable of repairing relations between Israel and Himself until a permanent fix could be made. That's the point I think you may not be seeing?



    We're agreed that OT sacrifices are no longer in effect. That has not been in dispute at all. My question is: Are you saying that OT sacrifices were *never* in effect, or never were effective in combating the problem of human sin?



    Yes, good comparison! My point is that they were both useful. It's just that the NT system was a permanent fix, whereas the OT system was a temporary fix. The Law had its usefulness. It wasn't just to condemn Israel.



    I don't believe God had a different sense of justice under the Law than He now has under Christ! God didn't just "slaughter" men under the Law because He was cruel under that system! That smacks of Marcianism, which holds that the God of the OT is evil, whereas the God of the NT is merciful and kind.



    We're confusing 2 issues here. We both agree that the OT system of animal sacrifice is no longer in effect and never could bring a permanent fix. However, there is the issue whether God was different under the OT and "slaughtered" people, simply because that system was merciless?

    God was never merciless! Under the Law there was lots of mercy. Animal sacrifices were precisely for the purpose of granting mercy. The Law was to keep people on the right course with God so that they would remain in a covenant of blessing with Him. It was a workable system, even if not a permanent fix.



    We agree that OT sacrifice and law were not a permanent fix for human sin. No matter how good that system was--and it was good--it could not permanently remove the stain of sin, because the sin nature remains fixed within man. The Law served to show that reality. Christ fixes this problem permanently because it is a system of Grace--it operates to keep man in relationship with God even though man still has a sin nature.



    No, I don't see that. Jesus was not dismantling the Law, as even he said, "I am come to fulfil the Law." He was, however, pointing out that the Law was not the opposite of Mercy, which is what you seem to be saying. In doing so, you are promoting anarchy and license. You may not be openly promoting this, but in denying Law, this is what you inadvertently are doing.



    No, the Law was to be interpreted in particular contexts, as Jesus indicated. There was always room for judicial discretion. Much of the Law was based on *intent.* It is difficult to codify "intent," requiring that God or judges make the determination.



    I fail to see the "stark difference" between the covenants in this respect. Animal sacrifices did not bring merciless, non-judicial judgment. And NT law does not eliminate the need for judgment against sin.



    The sentence of death under the Law is the same as the sentence of death at the cross of Christ! They both condemn humanity to death. All must die! This is not a difference in the 2 testaments.



    The Old Covenant had hope in a resurrection of the Just, and the New Covenant accepts the universal judgment of death for all of mankind. Where is the big difference here between the 2 covenants? The *only* difference is not a matter of divine law, but only of the temporary substitution of material symbols for the eventual final atonement of man. In both cases God taught man that provision had to be made on behalf of sinful man by means of God's own tool, Messiah himself. There is no difference between the covenants in this regard.



    We have the same word of God operating in us today as Israel had under the OT system. Remember, Moses told Israel that "God's word is near you, so that you may do it." It doesn't fix the fact we still have the sin nature. But it does give us an alternative route to acting upon that sinful compulsion. Again, there is no difference here between the 2 covenants.



    This teaching of repentance from sin was equally in the OT as under the NT. The OT was not cruel, as opposed to a "kind, gentler" NT. God is the same in both systems. Teaching was the same in both covenants. Repentance and turning to righteousness was the same in both testaments.

    The big difference was with the elements used. The Old Covenant utilized material symbols of what in the NT was the man Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifices simply represented Israel's need to rely on God's legal remedy to forgive sin. Temporary fixes came by animal atonement. The permanent fix, however, came by Christ's death on the cross. No real difference in terms of divine justice.

    well it seems we have a lot of differing points. I'm not looking for argument and disagreement. So I'll move on. God bless I hope there's some other subject we can find value in discussing.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    well it seems we have a lot of differing points. I'm not looking for argument and disagreement. So I'll move on. God bless I hope there's some other subject we can find value in discussing.
    For sure. I do note that you base your positions on Scriptures. And I do that as well. I expect, then, that over time our positions will converge. It may be that we just lack understanding, or the ability to see the whole picture? To be clear, I do believe we live in the NT, and not under the OT Law. But one God defines both eras.

  10. #10

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    For sure. I do note that you base your positions on Scriptures. And I do that as well. I expect, then, that over time our positions will converge. It may be that we just lack understanding, or the ability to see the whole picture? To be clear, I do believe we live in the NT, and not under the OT Law. But one God defines both eras.

    oh yea bro Whenever we are willing to change our opinion or idea, because we see clear scripture it's a value to us for certain. Yes One God is all there is from beginning to end......my position is his plan has different parts. Like if you and I wanted to build a home, we couldn't just throw on the roof and paint and all the stuff that is the final product, first we would have to do the dirty hard labor, dig down , build a solid foundation, then there's all the plumbing, framing, wiring ect....it's all necessary or the house won't be right but some of the early work....

    once the foundation and dirty work is done......you then move on to the good stuff. You don't rebuild the foundation again. I'm not sure that makes sense....

    but I do appreciate the fellowship and discussion, it's always a benefit to me when other students of scripture discuss.


    the law of Moses is essential, it just has its purpose , looking back from Christ, whereas if we were living in the camp then, it's a different story then it's just the only law and I'm pretty sure I'd be stoned to death and hanged on a tree by age oh 20 or so lol....

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    oh yea bro Whenever we are willing to change our opinion or idea, because we see clear scripture it's a value to us for certain. Yes One God is all there is from beginning to end......my position is his plan has different parts. Like if you and I wanted to build a home, we couldn't just throw on the roof and paint and all the stuff that is the final product, first we would have to do the dirty hard labor, dig down , build a solid foundation, then there's all the plumbing, framing, wiring ect....it's all necessary or the house won't be right but some of the early work....

    once the foundation and dirty work is done......you then move on to the good stuff. You don't rebuild the foundation again. I'm not sure that makes sense....

    but I do appreciate the fellowship and discussion, it's always a benefit to me when other students of scripture discuss.


    the law of Moses is essential, it just has its purpose , looking back from Christ, whereas if we were living in the camp then, it's a different story then it's just the only law and I'm pretty sure I'd be stoned to death and hanged on a tree by age oh 20 or so lol....
    I don't think the Hebrews put into play the law about stoning children, because it has to do with extreme cases--not slip ups, but total, unrelenting rebellion with no sign of repentance. There was the case when Phinehas drove a spear through a Hebrew leader, who was setting an outrageous example of sexual mixing with the Moabites in Num 25. I do think you have to understand that these laws were not "Gotcha laws." Rather, they had to do with outrageous, unbridled belligerence against the laws of God, and against men who knew better.

    On the house building example, I understand. We've had a couple of houses built, and I've seen the process. I've done some limited building myself. Once the foundation is there, you can move on. You just want to keep everything straight.

    We have the truth, but there are a few elements about the basic truth that we do need to keep straight. An important component of this are things like who Christ is, which spirit is the true Spirit of God, the basis of our good works, etc. Once we get this right, we can move on, and things go easier. Amen.

  12. #12

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't think the Hebrews put into play the law about stoning children, because it has to do with extreme cases--not slip ups, but total, unrelenting rebellion with no sign of repentance. There was the case when Phinehas drove a spear through a Hebrew leader, who was setting an outrageous example of sexual mixing with the Moabites in Num 25. I do think you have to understand that these laws were not "Gotcha laws." Rather, they had to do with outrageous, unbridled belligerence against the laws of God, and against men who knew better.

    On the house building example, I understand. We've had a couple of houses built, and I've seen the process. I've done some limited building myself. Once the foundation is there, you can move on. You just want to keep everything straight.

    We have the truth, but there are a few elements about the basic truth that we do need to keep straight. An important component of this are things like who Christ is, which spirit is the true Spirit of God, the basis of our good works, etc. Once we get this right, we can move on, and things go easier. Amen.
    It's written plainly, it wasn't an option for them brother here are a couple examples , the law is just what is written stoning thier children was a command of God. Stoning the guy gathering sticks...that was God commanding it.

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

    And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *21:18-21‬ *KJV‬‬

    or how about a daughter who had pre marital sex and her husband then find out? Also here is the punishment if the man had been lying about it...

    “If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

    And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

    that's if it turns out he's lying, he is put to shame also, no one is to associate with him any further...but if she did have pre marital sex....


    But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *22:13-18, 20-21‬ *KJV‬‬


    I don't know if your understanding , the law is exactly what's there they didn't get to say " well, I don't agree with this " but can you imagine Jesus teaching this to Christians though? Of course he doesn't and wouldn't, in fact the Pharisees we're going to obey the law and stone the adulterer...Jesus stopped them from doing that, by showing them the gospel and convicting thier consciences for thier sin, and then forgave hers....this is not something that could ever happen under Moses law, if you look you won't find a single event where it's said we choose which to obey. The law is stone, letters words, Gods words can't be picked and chosen from, it was the law.


    heres where they didn't know what to do, so then they ask Moses, and Moses asks God.

    “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

    And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
    **Numbers‬ *15:32-36‬ *KJV‬‬


    see it's not a mistake, or it's not that they got to choose whether to do these things, remember how terrified these folks were ...Gods glory was present with them. They weren't modern Americans with a bill of rights or anything, the law was thier law , and it's condition was of you do not do everything I've commanded you you will be cursed going in and out, I will utterly destroy your loves and eventually I will destroy your nation. That also is plainly written.


    it's not that there's a different God, there's of course one God who does not change. The gospel, is about changing US. The law had to come first in order to make us understand we're sinners, and sinners end up in death. It's why it's so contrary to the gospel. Even the details of the laws themselves are contrary at many points for instance the law of marriage.


    “When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *24:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬

    but Jesus explains that the law was not from the beginning, it came because of sin in us and hard hearts that result from sin.


    “It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”
    **Matthew‬ *5:31-32‬ *KJV‬‬


    see it's contrary and Jesus further explains this

    “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
    **Matthew‬ *19:4-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    people miss that the law of Moses came much much later, even 430 years after Abraham. Jesus is teaching things before sin, the law is given as a result of sin. The law is not the truth of God, it's seeing God through an obscured view because of the sin we harbor

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    It's written plainly, it wasn't an option for them brother here are a couple examples , the law is just what is written stoning thier children was a command of God. Stoning the guy gathering sticks...that was God commanding it.
    This Forum has gotten difficult for me, plus noise at home. What I truly, truly meant to say is that the Hebrews only put this law into action about stoning rebellious children on extremely *rare occasion.* That's why I gave you the example of the story of Phinehas--it was put into action.

    That is what I've heard from talking with Jews--this isn't my opinion. The Law of stoning rebellious children was put into effect on extremely rare occasion, though it certainly was supposed to be used for recalcitrant, poisonous people.

    But it is also what I actually think took place--only on very rare occasions. And I think that in your mind, and in the mind of others, there is this dichotomy between the Law and Grace and two diametrically opposite systems. And they weren't diametrically opposite systems--they were both put into play by the same God! He doesn't change in His character.

    So I don't blame you for firing back. It's just that I didn't actually get put in there what I had intended to say. And I just can't edit things easily either. I didn't mean to say God didn't put this form of justice into play. I meant to say he didn't put in into effect *except on rare occasion.* The Jews themselves say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    people miss that the law of Moses came much much later, even 430 years after Abraham. Jesus is teaching things before sin, the law is given as a result of sin. The law is not the truth of God, it's seeing God through an obscured view because of the sin we harbor
    I can't agree with that. The Bible plainly says that the Law of Moses was in fact the truth of God. Haven't you ever read Psalm 119? The Law of God preexisted sin, because everything God does is by His Law. It was His Law that commanded man to be created in His image and likeness. It was His Law that commanded man to eat only of certain trees in the garden. You have an unbalanced view of God's Law, because you misunderstand what Paul is saying.


    Psalm 119 Oh, how I love your law!
    I meditate on it all day long.


  14. #14

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This Forum has gotten difficult for me, plus noise at home. What I truly, truly meant to say is that the Hebrews only put this law into action about stoning rebellious children on extremely *rare occasion.* That's why I gave you the example of the story of Phinehas--it was put into action.

    That is what I've heard from talking with Jews--this isn't my opinion. The Law of stoning rebellious children was put into effect on extremely rare occasion, though it certainly was supposed to be used for recalcitrant, poisonous people.

    But it is also what I actually think took place--only on very rare occasions. And I think that in your mind, and in the mind of others, there is this dichotomy between the Law and Grace and two diametrically opposite systems. And they weren't diametrically opposite systems--they were both put into play by the same God! He doesn't change in His character.

    So I don't blame you for firing back. It's just that I didn't actually get put in there what I had intended to say. And I just can't edit things easily either. I didn't mean to say God didn't put this form of justice into play. I meant to say he didn't put in into effect *except on rare occasion.* The Jews themselves say that.



    I can't agree with that. The Bible plainly says that the Law of Moses was in fact the truth of God. Haven't you ever read Psalm 119? The Law of God preexisted sin, because everything God does is by His Law. It was His Law that commanded man to be created in His image and likeness. It was His Law that commanded man to eat only of certain trees in the garden. You have an unbalanced view of God's Law, because you misunderstand what Paul is saying.


    Psalm 119 Oh, how I love your law!
    I meditate on it all day long.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This Forum has gotten difficult for me, plus noise at home. What I truly, truly meant to say is that the Hebrews only put this law into action about stoning rebellious children on extremely *rare occasion.* That's why I gave you the example of the story of Phinehas--it was put into action.

    That is what I've heard from talking with Jews--this isn't my opinion. The Law of stoning rebellious children was put into effect on extremely rare occasion, though it certainly was supposed to be used for recalcitrant, poisonous people.

    But it is also what I actually think took place--only on very rare occasions. And I think that in your mind, and in the mind of others, there is this dichotomy between the Law and Grace and two diametrically opposite systems. And they weren't diametrically opposite systems--they were both put into play by the same God! He doesn't change in His character.

    So I don't blame you for firing back. It's just that I didn't actually get put in there what I had intended to say. And I just can't edit things easily either. I didn't mean to say God didn't put this form of justice into play. I meant to say he didn't put in into effect *except on rare occasion.* The Jews themselves say that.



    I can't agree with that. The Bible plainly says that the Law of Moses was in fact the truth of God. Haven't you ever read Psalm 119? The Law of God preexisted sin, because everything God does is by His Law. It was His Law that commanded man to be created in His image and likeness. It was His Law that commanded man to eat only of certain trees in the garden. You have an unbalanced view of God's Law, because you misunderstand what Paul is saying.


    Psalm 119 Oh, how I love your law!
    I meditate on it all day long.

    no brother, I'm not " firing back" I'm actually enjoying the discussion. When a disuse ion happens in text and not in person, it's easy to see tone that isn't there. It's good for growth to discuss.

    here's why I'm saying the law was added because of sin, and that it came four hundred thirty years after the promise to Abraham. This is why I believe that.

    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

    He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:

    but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:16-19, 21-25‬ *KJV‬‬


    the covenant of promise was not to Abrahams descendants according to the flesh, but this is the promise covenant promise which was 430 years before the law that was added because of transgression. Here's the thing I think you are missing


    “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

    And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

    And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

    But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
    **Genesis‬ *17:1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 15-16, 18-21‬ *KJV‬‬


    Ishmael of you aren't familiar, was born because Sarai wanted Abraham to have an heir, she was barren and past age to bear children. So she came up with the idea, go to Hagar my servant and have a child so we have an heir. But then , later God promises that Sarai will bear Abraham a son, Isaac. He is the son of promise, where as Ishmael was born of Sarai's doubt and her making a way.

    now the relevance of this...

    Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise
    . But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:21-26, 28-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you grasp what I'm trying to share? I've never suggested a different God gave either covenant. I think you are missing that everything eternal, is given by promise of God. And the things which do not last, are a result of mans doing. The law of Moses according to the scriptures, came 430 years after the promise to Abraham. The promise to Abraham , is not of the law, but it is of faith. And it is not for Hebrews only, but " for all people of the earth "

    notice what God says of Ishmael, he will become a great nation and 12 princes will come of him....that's the Children of bondage, those of the law of Moses and that covenant. It is not first, it comes far later. Then he says " but my covenant I will establish with Isaac, being the seed of promise. This represents the new and eternal covenant, and as you see there Ishmael , the first covenant was cast out, in order that they share not in the inheritance of the children of promise represented by Isaac.


    do you actually see no difference between what Moses taught, and what Jesus taught?

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
    **John‬ *1:17‬ *KJV‬‬

    im not thinking your getting what I mean about the law concerning them putting people to,death. Your saying you talked to some Jews and they told you these things.....that's not relevant to what I'm saying. Even if they never followed anything God said, it means they are breaking the law, what they chose to do, doesn't change what the law clearly says. Whether they did , or didn't, the law doesn't say " you decide whether to do these things" the law of Moses , is only exactly what's written In it, it doesn't matter if they said " well we're not gonna do it" it doesn't change the commandment. It only proves they broke the law.


    God hasn't changed, the law was give. To these folks proving again that it came because of transgression and wasn't from the beginning

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
    **1 Timothy‬ *1:9-11‬ *KJV‬‬


    The law is not of faith

    “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:11-14‬ *KJV‬‬


    the law as Paul says was only put into place because mankind was sinful in our hearts, the reason it says " thou shalt not...thou shalt not....is because he's teaching sinful people, how to recognize right and wrong. They were sinful, but how did they know the difference until God said " don't steal" ? Or " don't commit adultery" ? And how did they know " sin results in death" unless the law taught them that?

    That had to come first as a " school master" , but it was only ever for that purpose, it was never for salvation. After all the law is given, here's what Paul means by " it's not of faith , but those who do them shall live in them" again here he says

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10‬ *KJV‬‬

    This was the condition after its all given to them I'll cut it short because the curses go on and on

    If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE Lord THY GOD; Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God. And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *28:58-65‬ *KJV‬‬


    it's why the Hebrews have had the experiences they have since the beginning.....so to say " they didn't apply it always" that's not what I'm saying who knows how often they applied it? I don't, but I do know the nature of the law is to do everything that is written in the book continually, and you will have a blessed long life...then you die like Moses did and rest until Jesus comes with the covenant of life. But if you don't continue in everything the law says to do , every single ordinance, command, judgement ect then you are cursed so terribly ( actually read the curses bro, and then reflect on the plight of the Jews through time.....


    the law of Moses , is not of faith, and it's not of grace. It's based on just what's written , that's it's nature and purpose, to the intent as we were speaking before " that all the world is held guilty before God" this, brings us to Christ who is the only one to save us.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,326

    Re: Condemnation, and a savior

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    no brother, I'm not " firing back" I'm actually enjoying the discussion. When a disuse ion happens in text and not in person, it's easy to see tone that isn't there. It's good for growth to discuss.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    here's why I'm saying the law was added because of sin, and that it came four hundred thirty years after the promise to Abraham. This is why I believe that.

    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

    He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:

    but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:16-19, 21-25‬ *KJV‬‬


    the covenant of promise was not to Abrahams descendants according to the flesh, but this is the promise covenant promise which was 430 years before the law that was added because of transgression. Here's the thing I think you are missing


    “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

    And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

    And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

    But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
    **Genesis‬ *17:1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 15-16, 18-21‬ *KJV‬‬


    Ishmael of you aren't familiar, was born because Sarai wanted Abraham to have an heir, she was barren and past age to bear children. So she came up with the idea, go to Hagar my servant and have a child so we have an heir. But then , later God promises that Sarai will bear Abraham a son, Isaac. He is the son of promise, where as Ishmael was born of Sarai's doubt and her making a way.

    now the relevance of this...

    Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise
    . But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:21-26, 28-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you grasp what I'm trying to share? I've never suggested a different God gave either covenant. I think you are missing that everything eternal, is given by promise of God. And the things which do not last, are a result of mans doing. The law of Moses according to the scriptures, came 430 years after the promise to Abraham. The promise to Abraham , is not of the law, but it is of faith. And it is not for Hebrews only, but " for all people of the earth "
    No, I really do follow, and am aware. There are, however, semantics difficulties in discussing the "Law of God," because it can be looked at, I believe, in two ways. There is, first of all, the sense of "God's Law" that is associated with God's eternal word, in which He commanded Man to exist and live in the image and likeness of God. This Law preexisted the Fall of Man.

    Secondly, there is what you refer to--the Law of Moses. This is also the "Law of God," and is often what Paul is talking about with respect to the Covenant with Israel, prior to the Covenant of Christ. This Law confined Israel, both righteous and unrighteous, in a hopeless condition, where atonement remained as yet unfulfilled and without which Man was doomed. When Christ came, he fulfilled this Law by providing the final touches of atonement upon Israel, so that not just Israel but the whole world could benefit from this atonement.

    You refer to the "flesh" and the "Spirit," to Ishmael and to Isaac, to the children of bondage and to the children of freedom, who are viewed as the "children of promise." The children of Promise existed under the Law, and even today, because they were promised final atonement, even while they were as yet under an incomplete system of atonement, the Law of Moses.

    What this is saying is that Israel, under the Law, consisted of some people who treated the Law strictly by the flesh, performing the rituals pretentiously, and without genuine faith. They could never attain to the fulfillment of the promise of atonement simply because they were not in pursuit of final atonement. They were obeying laws for their own benefit, and not strictly out of obedience to God, spiritually.

    But this is not to say that there weren't those who properly, under the Law, obeyed God in that Law and properly pursued final atonement. Their faith saved them by the completed work of Christ in the New Covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    notice what God says of Ishmael, he will become a great nation and 12 princes will come of him....that's the Children of bondage, those of the law of Moses and that covenant. It is not first, it comes far later. Then he says " but my covenant I will establish with Isaac, being the seed of promise. This represents the new and eternal covenant, and as you see there Ishmael , the first covenant was cast out, in order that they share not in the inheritance of the children of promise represented by Isaac.

    do you actually see no difference between what Moses taught, and what Jesus taught?
    I see the Law of Moses as 613 laws providing temporary atonement for sins until Christ came. Once Christ came, he completed the process of legal atonement, rendering unnecessary these temporary, ritualistic laws. The Moral Law, of course, remained as God's eternal word for Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
    **John‬ *1:17‬ *KJV‬‬

    im not thinking your getting what I mean about the law concerning them putting people to,death. Your saying you talked to some Jews and they told you these things.....that's not relevant to what I'm saying. Even if they never followed anything God said, it means they are breaking the law, what they chose to do, doesn't change what the law clearly says. Whether they did , or didn't, the law doesn't say " you decide whether to do these things" the law of Moses , is only exactly what's written In it, it doesn't matter if they said " well we're not gonna do it" it doesn't change the commandment. It only proves they broke the law.
    What I'm saying is that those who actually put these laws into effect, under the Old Covenant, recognized that they were not laws to be rashly put into effect without discerning the gravity of the matter. They were to be implemented with great discretion, recognizing that people do sin and do repent. Acting too hastily in applying capital punishment may not offer proper time for repentance.

    So when we speak of the "harshness" of the Law, we have to understand that there was also *mercy* under the Law. The whole purpose of the Law, for Israel, was to grant mercy to Israel in their proneness to sin so that they would remain in standing with God as His Covenant People. This was the basis for their recovery from sin, and also for their continuing to act on behalf of God while they remained imperfect. The Law was not so harsh as to destroy people at the 1st sign of sin!

    What you seem to be talking about is the incapacity of the Law of Moses to bring final atonement for Israel? Under that system atonement remained incomplete. And as long as it remained as such, death was final--there could be no resurrection and no immortality. Christ had to come to finish redemption so that Israel could obtain eternal atonement. No legal remedy would be required beyond what Christ would do.

    The difference between death under the Law and eternal life with Christ is a distinction, but does not indicate a different God in each of the two testaments! Rather, it indicates a temporary fix until the final solution could be delivered. But yes, the grave situation under the Law, before final atonement, was the picture we are given in the OT system. And it is no less grave for those who remain apart from Christ's finished work under the NT system today!

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    God hasn't changed, the law was give. To these folks proving again that it came because of transgression and wasn't from the beginning

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
    **1 Timothy‬ *1:9-11‬ *KJV‬‬
    Paul is arguing that inasmuch as the Law was given to correct Israel in their sin, and to divide sinners in Israel from the righteous, those who remain under the Law, with finished atonement available, are choosing to remain in a place of unfinished redemption. They are choosing to live not just in abandonment of a completed atonement, but also in a system that was incomplete in its atonement. It is, in reality, a choice to live with sins not fully atoned for, particularly since the Law was designed for those who pursued final atonement!

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    The law is not of faith
    The Law was designed for those of faith, yes. But Paul is arguing that faith could not be *completed* under the Law. To remain under the Law was to remain in a state of uncompleted faith. To live by faith under the Law is to look forward to the promise of a completed atonement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Paul is talking about those who choose to continue to live under the Law, even though it pointed towards final atonement. To remain under that system is to reject its very purpose, to point forward to a completed atonement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:11-14‬ *KJV‬‬

    the law as Paul says was only put into place because mankind was sinful in our hearts, the reason it says " thou shalt not...thou shalt not....is because he's teaching sinful people, how to recognize right and wrong. They were sinful, but how did they know the difference until God said " don't steal" ? Or " don't commit adultery" ? And how did they know " sin results in death" unless the law taught them that?

    That had to come first as a " school master" , but it was only ever for that purpose, it was never for salvation. After all the law is given, here's what Paul means by " it's not of faith , but those who do them shall live in them" again here he says

    “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:10‬ *KJV‬‬

    This was the condition after its all given to them I'll cut it short because the curses go on and on

    If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE Lord THY GOD; Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God. And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *28:58-65‬ *KJV‬‬

    it's why the Hebrews have had the experiences they have since the beginning.....so to say " they didn't apply it always" that's not what I'm saying who knows how often they applied it? I don't, but I do know the nature of the law is to do everything that is written in the book continually, and you will have a blessed long life...then you die like Moses did and rest until Jesus comes with the covenant of life. But if you don't continue in everything the law says to do , every single ordinance, command, judgement ect then you are cursed so terribly ( actually read the curses bro, and then reflect on the plight of the Jews through time.....
    I'm not sure what you mean here? Moses was simply saying that those who lived by faith under the Law were the children of promise, and would naturally persevere in the temporary fix that the Law was. To believe in a final atonement one must continue in the then-current atonement, which was only temporary until the permanent fix had come!

    Some people think that Moses was teaching Israel to remain forever and ever under the system of Law, and to offer animal sacrifices forever. I believe Moses was speaking the language of "perpetuity," but not the language of "eternity."

    In other words, he was stating the requirements of the Law of Moses *while it remained in effect,* in perpetuity. Once the Law was completed in the sacrifice of Christ, Moses would've wholeheartedly embraced the end of the system of animal sacrifice in favor of the sacrifice of Christ. Moses was looking forward to a completed system of atonement, to the end of legal condemnation for sin in Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the law of Moses , is not of faith, and it's not of grace. It's based on just what's written , that's it's nature and purpose, to the intent as we were speaking before " that all the world is held guilty before God" this, brings us to Christ who is the only one to save us.
    The Law was full of grace. It was designed with grace in mind.

    But it did not bring completed grace, but only temporary forgiveness, or what I've called, "temporary atonement." It was designed to eventually lead to a final legal rectification for sin, when Christ came.

    But in the meantime it provided an opportunity for faith to express itself in a temporary means of relationship with God. In that respect, it did have grace. It just didn't complete grace until Christ had made final legal rectification for sin.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Conviction V.S. Condemnation
    By Scooby_Snacks in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Jun 17th 2014, 03:46 PM
  2. The Condemnation of God
    By Gadgeteer in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: May 20th 2014, 01:56 AM
  3. Replies: 142
    Last Post: May 14th 2013, 09:57 AM
  4. No More Condemnation (outreach)
    By fennywest in forum Poetry
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Jul 15th 2010, 02:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •