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Thread: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

  1. #16
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev does indicate three heads having Dominion taken away. Notice rev 13 is the fourth beast of Dan 7 coming to power. And the reference to the lion bear leopard which would be the three he subdues. I woul also mention these four are also in view in the first four seals
    That still leaves this issue:

    Daniel: AC and 7 kings
    Rev: AC and ten kings

    Also, the "lion bear leopard" are not any of the ten horns Daniel wrote of. They were previous beasts that came and fell before Daniels 4th beast arose.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The 2nd Beast of Rev 13 does not have 10 horns and 7 heads.
    Neither does the little horn which gives the FP and LH something in common besides both of them having full control over their ten horned beasts (initially ten horns as far as the LH is concerned)


    And yes, it is interesting that in Rev 13 the 1st Beast has mention of leopard, bear, and lion. Maybe that's why the 4th Beast of Dan 7 was beyond description, because it contained elements of the 3 earlier beasts? It was not exclusively a single kind of beast?
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    So it is reasonable to assume that the 4th Beast defeated and therefore subsumed the qualities of the 3 prior beasts.
    Of all the interpretations I have read say the first 3 beasts fell before the 4th beast arrived so the four were consecutive.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #18

    Cool Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Neither does the little horn which gives the FP and LH something in common besides both of them having full control over their ten horned beasts (initially ten horns as far as the LH is concerned)

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    Of all the interpretations I have read say the first 3 beasts fell before the 4th beast arrived so the four were consecutive.
    Of course they were consecutive. The first three beasts are the same as the top of the great statue of Daniel chapter 2.

    Beast 1 - lion - Babylonian Empire.
    Beast 2 - bear - Medo-Persian Empire.
    Beast 3 - leopard - Greek - Alexander (died and left the Empire to 4 generals - 4 heads of beast).
    Beast 4 - Roman Empire - The last iteration will be EU with antichrist as the head.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Of course they were consecutive. The first three beasts are the same as the top of the great statue of Daniel chapter 2.

    Beast 1 - lion - Babylonian Empire.
    Beast 2 - bear - Medo-Persian Empire.
    Beast 3 - leopard - Greek - Alexander (died and left the Empire to 4 generals - 4 heads of beast).
    Beast 4 - Roman Empire - The last iteration will be EU with antichrist as the head.
    I don't see how the Roman empire can be the last beast since Christ destroys that beast at the second coming. Rome rose and fell long ago and there isn't a 5th beast so Rome doesn't have a "last iteration" that I can see being possible. How can Rome be on the list twice, especially when I see the list having Rome only once. Do you agree the 4th beast is the same beast of Rev 13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Of course they were consecutive. The first three beasts are the same as the top of the great statue of Daniel chapter 2.

    Beast 1 - lion - Babylonian Empire.
    Beast 2 - bear - Medo-Persian Empire.
    Beast 3 - leopard - Greek - Alexander (died and left the Empire to 4 generals - 4 heads of beast).
    Beast 4 - Roman Empire - The last iteration will be EU with antichrist as the head.
    I don't see how the Roman empire can be the last beast since Christ destroys that beast at the second coming. Rome rose and fell long ago and there isn't a 5th beast so Rome doesn't have a "last iteration" that I can see being possible. How can Rome be on the list twice, especially when I see the list having Rome only once. Do you agree the 4th beast is the same beast of Rev 13?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It seems the main way some explain this is that Daniels 4th beast is not the Rev 13:1 beast. I can't agree. Both described the last of any "beast kingdoms" this age will see. Both are cast into fire after being defeated. Both are defeated at the end of this age. In Daniel there is a day of judgment and the beast is destroyed by fire. In Rev it is the day of the second coming, Christ defeats the beast and it's army and the beast is cast into fire. Both beasts have ten horns and both are followed by someone commonly called the Antichrist. The two beasts must represent the same beast of the end times. So that brings us full circle to the question why the change from 3 out of 10 kings being "plucked up" yet the AC does not do this to any of the ten horns in Revelation. I say God changed prophecy and gave the edited version to John.
    It's certainly the same 4th beast of Rome. Rome introduced a second capital, Constantinople, but then Rome was wounded/split into two. The wound is healed when Constantinople (Istanbul) and Rome/EU co-operate to re-create a mighty Eastern Roman Empire just like in Byzantium/Ottoman history.

    This united Rome is reflected in the two beasts of Rev 13, where the old Rome is reflected in two small religious powerpoints (Vatican/Caliph) in Rome and Istanbul. This religious Rome of two horns influences the religions of the world to serve the new leader of Rome who comes to power in Jerusalem and rules loosely over the Turkish Union but rules directly over Israel/Syria and Iraq.

    So Daniel 7 and Rev 13 speak of the same Rome, but expressed in different ways.

    A further expression of the same Rome is Rev 17 where the western portion of Rome (Vatican/EU) takes on the role of whore city, and the Eastern Rome is associated with the ten horned beast. It's 3 different prophecies expressing Rome in 3 different ways.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That still leaves this issue:

    Daniel: AC and 7 kings
    Rev: AC and ten kings

    Also, the "lion bear leopard" are not any of the ten horns Daniel wrote of. They were previous beasts that came and fell before Daniels 4th beast arose.
    Yes Rev 13 indicates the other 3 beasts are incorporated into the 4th beast. Note that the final Rome "resembles the leopard", it resembles Alexander's Empire. Interesting that.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It's certainly the same 4th beast of Rome.
    A future Roman empire? Wasn't Rome one of the fallen, past beasts not a future one?



    Rome introduced a second capital, Constantinople, but then Rome was wounded/split into two. The wound is healed when Constantinople (Istanbul) and Rome/EU co-operate to re-create a mighty Eastern Roman Empire just like in Byzantium/Ottoman history.
    Ok, that simply can't be possible. I'll explain next.

    This united Rome is reflected in the two beasts of Rev 13, where the old Rome is reflected in two small religious powerpoints (Vatican/Caliph) in Rome and Istanbul.
    You speak of preterist views that these things are of the past but you make a huge error. The Rev 13 beasts are defeated when Christ returns with his heavenly army. That hasn't happened yet so the two beasts aren't things of the past. You also state Rome was split in two but the Rev 13 beast is not, so it's wounded head is not from such a splitting.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes Rev 13 indicates the other 3 beasts are incorporated into the 4th beast.
    That can't be since they had fallen before the 4th beast rises in Daniel, thus the three are also fallen before the Rev 13 beast rises. At best it can be said aspects or similarities of those beasts are within this final beast.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    A future Roman empire? Wasn't Rome one of the fallen, past beasts not a future one?





    Ok, that simply can't be possible. I'll explain next.



    You speak of preterist views that these things are of the past but you make a huge error. The Rev 13 beasts are defeated when Christ returns with his heavenly army. That hasn't happened yet so the two beasts aren't things of the past. You also state Rome was split in two but the Rev 13 beast is not, so it's wounded head is not from such a splitting.
    I'm not proposing a preterist view. You can clearly see that I'm talking of things that have not arisen yet, how then can you associate my views as preterist?

    Regarding the Babylon/Persia/Greek/Roman Empires, these were consecutive, each one conquering the previous. In some ways Rome didn't fall, due to the Pope continuing to retain power in some manner, and due to the powerful Eastern Roman Empire still continuing to exist.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm not proposing a preterist view. You can clearly see that I'm talking of things that have not arisen yet, how then can you associate my views as preterist?
    Some of the worded sounded like what Rome did in the past. I am glad to hear you aren't proposing that. I am still troubled that you think Rome rises again. How does that look in the 4 beast of Daniel? Where is the historic Rome and where is the future Rome you speak of in those 4 beasts?

    Regarding the Babylon/Persia/Greek/Roman Empires, these were consecutive, each one conquering the previous. In some ways Rome didn't fall, due to the Pope continuing to retain power in some manner, and due to the powerful Eastern Roman Empire still continuing to exist.
    I think Rome fell...no more Caesars but a church did rise from it before it fell. I don't see that as being the world empire that will rule during the GT though. I see something new coming, a false Christ claiming to be god. An Antichrist and his antichristian religion...a false Christianity which draws in Christians to fulfill the Apostasy...a departing from faith in Christ to faith in someone they think is Christ but will be a convincing imposter.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Some of the worded sounded like what Rome did in the past. I am glad to hear you aren't proposing that. I am still troubled that you think Rome rises again. How does that look in the 4 beast of Daniel? Where is the historic Rome and where is the future Rome you speak of in those 4 beasts?



    I think Rome fell...no more Caesars but a church did rise from it before it fell. I don't see that as being the world empire that will rule during the GT though. I see something new coming, a false Christ claiming to be god. An Antichrist and his antichristian religion...a false Christianity which draws in Christians to fulfill the Apostasy...a departing from faith in Christ to faith in someone they think is Christ but will be a convincing imposter.
    I am not proposing that Rome rises again, I am claiming it never fell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
    "The Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire and Byzantium, was the continuation of the Roman Empire in its eastern provinces during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, when its capital city was Constantinople (modern-day Fatih, İstanbul, and formerly Byzantium). It survived the fragmentation and fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD and continued to exist for an additional thousand years until it fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453"

    When Mehmed conquered Constantinople, he went to great lengths to ensure the continuity of the Roman Empire, keeping structures intact, having his own ancestral claim to the throne, and he kept the prior heirs to the throne in powerful positions within his empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_the_Conqueror
    "After the conquest of Constantinople, Mehmed claimed the title "Caesar" of the Roman Empire (Qayser-i Rm), based on the assertion that Constantinople had been the seat and capital of the Roman Empire since 330 AD, and whoever possessed the Imperial capital was the ruler of the Empire.[12] The contemporary scholar George of Trebizond supported his claim.[13][14] The claim was not recognized by the Catholic Church and most of, if not all, Western Europe, but was recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Mehmed had installed Gennadius Scholarius, a staunch antagonist of the West, as the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople-New Rome with all the ceremonial elements, ethnarch (or milletbashi) status and rights of property that made him the second largest landlord in the said empire by the Sultan himself in 1454, and in turn Gennadius II recognized Mehmed the Conqueror as successor to the throne.[15][16] Mehmed also had a blood lineage to the Byzantine Imperial family: his predecessor, Sultan Orhan I, had married a Byzantine princess, and Mehmed claimed descent from John Tzelepes Komnenos.[17] He was not the only ruler to claim such a title; Frederick III, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in Western Europe, traced his lineage from Charlemagne, who had taken the title of Roman Emperor when he was crowned by Pope Leo III in 800.
    Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI died without producing an heir, and had Constantinople not fallen to the Ottomans he likely would have been succeeded by the sons of his deceased elder brother. Those children were taken into the palace service of Mehmed after the fall of Constantinople. The oldest boy, renamed Has Murad, became a personal favorite of Mehmed and served as Beylerbey (Governor-General) of the Balkans. The younger son, renamed Mesih Pasha, became Admiral of the Ottoman fleet and Sanjak-bey (Governor) of the Province of Gallipoli. He eventually served twice as Grand Vizier under Mehmed's son, Bayezid II."


    So eastern Rome never fell. In the west it was a different story. In the west the empire continued in a very loose even debatable manner. The Pope continued to hold things together, and after the fall of the city he gained the title of Roman emperor and some level of popularity in Europe due to the spread of Christianity. Thus he could "whore" the position of head of the church and his European popularity to whichever king or Lord would protect him. He was often in Rome itself, but sometimes moved location. Over time he increasingly gained strength and settled back in Rome permanently. Eventually being the most powerful emperor in Europe through manipulating kings and factions around Europe. Through the Jesuit priesthood they regained a lot of international influence until today they have their key people in most positions in the EU and are basically running the EU.

    In WWI Istanbul (Constantinople) fell, and so at the moment Rome expresses itself through Vatican/EU in the west, and Turkey in the East. The division between the 2 has partly healed through NATO, but I believe will be more fully healed when the west helps Turkey create an Islamic superstate in the Middle East, the west is doing this through destroying all challengers to Turkey. They will keep their buddies (Jordan/Saudi) out of the mess they have created, Iran is still on the radar for destruction, but other countries from Libya to Afghanistan have been weakened so that Turkey will look the superhero when they bring stability into the Middle East.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I am not proposing that Rome rises again, I am claiming it never fell.
    I see. Thanks for explaining. So, Daniels 4th beast rose over 2000 years ago and still continues to exist up until the second coming when Christ defeats it? Hopefully I am closer to understanding your position.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I see. Thanks for explaining. So, Daniels 4th beast rose over 2000 years ago and still continues to exist up until the second coming when Christ defeats it? Hopefully I am closer to understanding your position.
    Yes, that is what I am saying, apology for the long post. I was just illustrating that there was actually continuation of Rome in the East, which still exists in the nation of Turkey. In the west it is the Vatican/EU (Rome). These two together are the wounded empire, the 7th head. (5 WERE AND ONE IS = the Roman empire was the 6th head.)

    This empire will be healed when the ten nation Turkish Empire arises. In Islamic circles this has already been proposed for many years:
    https://www.harunyahya.com/en/94/cat...-islamic-union

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes, that is what I am saying, apology for the long post.
    No problem, sorry for my slowness.

    Ok, next question: Do you equate Daniels 4th beast with the beast of Rev 13:1? You may have covered that already but I don't recall it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No problem, sorry for my slowness.

    Ok, next question: Do you equate Daniels 4th beast with the beast of Rev 13:1? You may have covered that already but I don't recall it.
    Yes the same beast. This beast already exists, then it is given a mouth (it is given human expression through a particular leader). the 42 months is the final expression of the Roman beast through a particular leader, the man of sin.

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