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Thread: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

  1. #31
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    Cool Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes, that is what I am saying, apology for the long post. I was just illustrating that there was actually continuation of Rome in the East, which still exists in the nation of Turkey. In the west it is the Vatican/EU (Rome). These two together are the wounded empire, the 7th head. (5 WERE AND ONE IS = the Roman empire was the 6th head.)

    This empire will be healed when the ten nation Turkish Empire arises. In Islamic circles this has already been proposed for many years:
    https://www.harunyahya.com/en/94/cat...-islamic-union
    I do not see Muslim nations forming any beast. You say the Eastern Roman Empire never ended, no so. In 1453, the Ottoman Turks had captured Constantinople, thus ending the Eastern Roman Empire.

    No, I see the European Holy Rome continuing. Rome continued on through Charlemagne and even to Hitler and Mussolini. I see Hitler's and Mussolini's put down as the wound in the head. I see the last beast as still Rome with the 10 nations part of the European Union.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I do not see Muslim nations forming any beast. You say the Eastern Roman Empire never ended, no so. In 1453, the Ottoman Turks had captured Constantinople, thus ending the Eastern Roman Empire.

    No, I see the European Holy Rome continuing. Rome continued on through Charlemagne and even to Hitler and Mussolini. I see Hitler's and Mussolini's put down as the wound in the head. I see the last beast as still Rome with the 10 nations part of the European Union.
    If you read my lengthy earlier post with the Wikipedia quotes you will see that Mehmed the Conquerer had strong claims to the title Caesar of Rome. This was a generally accepted fact outside of Europe. The Ottoman Empire thus continued the Roman Empire.

    People are fixated on Europe , which only has a minor role (whore) in the end times. The main geographic focus of Bible prophecy is the Middle East.

  3. #33

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I see Hitler's and Mussolini's put down as the wound in the head.
    Deade, I've gone back and forth between this and the popular idea that the man of sin will receive a fatal wound, then be resurrected. I don't think your idea can be ruled out. Hitler and the Third Reich played such a big role in shaping the modern world; along with the fact of their Jewish persecution. And it remained only a "short time."

    It seems to me if it's the case, then the eighth head would be some sort of a revival of the Third Reich, which I have difficulty with; unless it's not a literal revival but something of a similar ilk but in different clothing.

  4. #34
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes the same beast. This beast already exists, then it is given a mouth (it is given human expression through a particular leader). the 42 months is the final expression of the Roman beast through a particular leader, the man of sin.
    That was going to be my next point. The Rev 13 beast only exists for 42 months so it cannot be this thousands of years lasting Roman beast. The Rev 13 beast only rises up for the first time 42 months before Jesus returns.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    All this before the man of sin is even mentioned.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #35
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Deade, I've gone back and forth between this and the popular idea that the man of sin will receive a fatal wound, then be resurrected.
    The deadly wound did not kill someone, nor does the text state a dead person resurrected back to life. It only says one head/mountain received a deadly wound, but John saw the wound healed. No death happened and mountains aren't people so this wound is a symbolic wound upon an area of land. The wound was caused by a sword, which is symbolic of war. So it was a war in an area of a mountain within a great empire which was the wound and the healing means the area and peoples there recovered from the effects of that war just like Japan rebuilding after the end of WW2. Japan was wounded, they have mountains, they healed from that war wound. That's all John is describing in Rev 13 except it's not Japan after WW2. I just use that as an example of how an area of land can be wounded and heal from a war wound.


    Barnes:

    Revelation 13:3

    And I saw one of his heads, as it were wounded to death - The phrase “wounded to death” means properly that it received a mortal wound, that is, the wound would have been mortal if it had not been healed. A blow was struck that would be naturally fatal, but there was something that prevented the fatal result.

    A wound that caused death cannot be "healed". That takes a resurrection not a healing. To heal means to recover so the healing occurred before death happened. Example, someone shot in the head but is still alive. It's a deadly wound if not treated in a hospital. After surgery and medication the Doctor says he will recover and heal. That's what we are seeing in Revelation.

    Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    See? The beast did not die from the wound and had a resurrection. It was wounded and was able to live, the wound healing up and death avoided.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #36
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    In all this discussion of 10 kings and 3 kings I have to refer you to the fact there is a possible association between the 10 horns of Dan 7 and the feet of Dan 2, which infers the existence of 10 toes. If so, might we not assume that there are 5 toes on one foot and 5 toes on the other foot, meaning 5 kings from one side of the Beast Empire and 5 kings from the other side of the Beast Empire?

    DurbanDude seems to have a logical scheme that encompasses this reality--part Western and part Eastern? What do the rest of you think? My view is that Europe will encompass the Beast, with 5 kings from W. Europe and 5 kings from E. Europe.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That was going to be my next point. The Rev 13 beast only exists for 42 months so it cannot be this thousands of years lasting Roman beast. The Rev 13 beast only rises up for the first time 42 months before Jesus returns.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    All this before the man of sin is even mentioned.
    My post already covered this, then you reply as if I didn't explain. I shall then explain again.

    The Rev 13 beast does not only exist for 42 months, it was already in existence according to Rev 13. The beast wouldn't be able to be given a mouth if that beast never existed. An existing beast was given a mouth, which is a human quality that represents the beast expressing itself through a human during the final 42 months of that beast.

    As for the timing of it rising up, the text doesn't say when. It first rises up, then later the beast is "given a mouth" for 42 months.

  8. #38
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    My post already covered this, then you reply as if I didn't explain. I shall then explain again.

    The Rev 13 beast does not only exist for 42 months, it was already in existence according to Rev 13. The beast wouldn't be able to be given a mouth if that beast never existed. An existing beast was given a mouth, which is a human quality that represents the beast expressing itself through a human during the final 42 months of that beast.

    As for the timing of it rising up, the text doesn't say when. It first rises up, then later the beast is "given a mouth" for 42 months.
    Well yes, the Beast is an evolution from the 4th Beast of Dan 7 to the 10 horns. So the Beast is, in my view, the Roman Empire, lasting until 10 horns emerge in the last days, consolidated under Antichrist. And Antichrist accomplishes this have defeating 3 of those horns.

    So that's what I'm looking for, in order to identify him. I'm looking for a defeat of 3 nations, followed by a consolidation of 10 nations into a single empire under one man--the Antichrist. And it will somehow emerge out of nations that trace back to the old Roman imperial tradition.

  9. #39
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    The Rev 13 beast does not only exist for 42 months, it was already in existence according to Rev 13.
    The text does not support that. It rises and has only 42 months.

    The beast wouldn't be able to be given a mouth if that beast never existed.
    This is not a logical conclusion. The beast rises and is given a mouth. The very fact that is rises up proves that is it's beginning.

    It first rises up, then later the beast is "given a mouth" for 42 months.
    I think that's clear enough to be all the same day. Even the fact that the ten kingdoms are kings with the beast for one hour means there is a certain timeframe that the beast has ten horns and we know that is the 42 months. How can ten kings have kingdoms for thousand of years? The same ten kings rule for the entire time the beast exists so that goes against your theory as well. Not to mention the matching amount of time given to the two witnesses of 1260 days.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #40

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The 7 heads are mentioned again in a consecutive manner in Rev 17. So it is unlikely they are all concurrent with the ten horns.

    It is most likely only the 7th and 8th ones that are concurrent.
    Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king

    the 8th king is concurrent with both, first he is part of the seven heads....remember he was, now is not, but will come forth again in the end. It's why when John sees the seventh head it appears as if it's wounded and yet lives. He's already gone he was next in line then.....but he will return later with the ten kings and not for a literal hour, but a short time.

    there's actually nothing to suggest what occurs between the beast and the ten in revelation, in fact the dragon, which the beast is made in his image only wears seven crowns...your earlier post is correct, prophecy is like the four gospels....thier accounts of the same events, but they all give differing details , we get a fuller knowledge of we don't try to seperate the four gospels, but accept them all.....it's the same with prophecy. Here's another example

    “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *11:3-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

    And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

    For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

    Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?...........“Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
    *
    **Zechariah‬ *4:2-4, 10-14 KJV‬‬

    And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
    **Revelation‬ *1:12-13, 20‬ *KJV‬‬

    candlestick with no lamps burning

    "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:5‬ *KJV‬‬

    seven lamps of fire at Gods throne which are the seven spirits of God....

    “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:6‬ *KJV‬‬

    seven eyes which are those seven spirits of God , now sent into all the earth, through the Lamb. Ezekiel sees pieces , Daniel, Zechariah, Isaiah, John....ect.

    Gods plan is one everything adds to everything else , it's all a revelation of Jesus Christ with the four gospels being the grand subject. The gospels are really where prophecy makes sense consider the two olive trees and the information in those quotes there just a couple from revelation and Zechariah....we know the two olive trees seen in the visions are the two witnesses who stand by the lord of the whole earth....

    “And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.”
    **Matthew‬ *17:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    we can then look back to revelation for more understanding

    “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
    **Revelation‬ *11:6‬ *KJV‬‬

    Elijah caused it to not rain for three and a half years ( the same measure of time you find in Daniel and revelation always the same measures whether times time and a half, or forty two months or if you add up the days as they also do.

    and Moses turned water to blood and brought diverse Plagues upon Egypt.

    further understanding rests on knowing Elijah king of prophets, and Moses wrote the law.....the two witnesses of Jesus Christ

    “Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
    **John‬ *1:45‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul says the law and prophets witness of him, Peter says it, and most importantly Jesus says it.

    prophecy is all part of the big picture.

  11. #41

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    My post already covered this, then you reply as if I didn't explain. I shall then explain again.

    The Rev 13 beast does not only exist for 42 months, it was already in existence according to Rev 13. The beast wouldn't be able to be given a mouth if that beast never existed. An existing beast was given a mouth, which is a human quality that represents the beast expressing itself through a human during the final 42 months of that beast.

    As for the timing of it rising up, the text doesn't say when. It first rises up, then later the beast is "given a mouth" for 42 months.

    read Daniel chapter 11-12

  12. #42

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The deadly wound did not kill someone, nor does the text state a dead person resurrected back to life. It only says one head/mountain received a deadly wound, but John saw the wound healed. No death happened and mountains aren't people so this wound is a symbolic wound upon an area of land. The wound was caused by a sword, which is symbolic of war. So it was a war in an area of a mountain within a great empire which was the wound and the healing means the area and peoples there recovered from the effects of that war just like Japan rebuilding after the end of WW2. Japan was wounded, they have mountains, they healed from that war wound. That's all John is describing in Rev 13 except it's not Japan after WW2. I just use that as an example of how an area of land can be wounded and heal from a war wound.


    Barnes:




    Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    See? The beast did not die from the wound and had a resurrection. It was wounded and was able to live, the wound healing up and death avoided.

    it's because the one with the wound is this one he was part of the beasts in Daniel the one who was diverse from the others.... Then later, he will rule the ten which come long after johns vision. He was then....was not when John wrote, but he was yet to come. So it appears in the symbolism as it appeared he was dead, but he was back.


    the beast with seven heads, is one that was concurrent the sixth was ruling when John wrote. .then the ten horns are another event. That was yet to begin unfolding at the time. The beast appeared , and will return again in the end times, could be happening now who knows.... It's been close to two thousand years....a lot may have been happening that were just not aware of as of yet.

    the wound though, that's because he's part of the original 7 which begin being in daniel, and then have progressed quite a bit by johns vision. I think something that shows this fact is this written roughly bc 600-700


    “And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
    **Daniel‬ *12:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    And then in revelation

    “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
    **Revelation‬ *10:5-7‬ *KJV‬‬



    it sort of speaks to me anyhow, that time has passed, along with the fact 5 of johns kings have already fallen, one was ruling and the next was coming.

  13. #43

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Sorry I didn't add this the beast

    “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
    **Revelation‬ *17:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”
    **Revelation‬ *17:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬


    sort of like what happened tomjerusalem during the siege of 67-70 ad.....that will happen on the end on a larger scale to the earth. Before God had dealt exclusively with Israel, so the wrath of thier covenant, was upon them....Jesus then came for all people of earth, so the wrath of the Lamb, will be upon all the earth.


    like the beast sort of mirrors Jesus in an opposite way, Jesus came to earth, returned to heaven, and will come back again in the end.

    the beast was before, now is not ( when John wrote) but will also return in the end and end up,in hell which was made for him and his angels....



    he comes twice. It's why he appears as wounded and yet lived.

  14. #44
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    read Daniel chapter 11-12
    Yes, I know those chapters well. The same final 3.5 years is mentioned there, in what way is it relevant to our discussion.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well yes, the Beast is an evolution from the 4th Beast of Dan 7 to the 10 horns. So the Beast is, in my view, the Roman Empire, lasting until 10 horns emerge in the last days, consolidated under Antichrist. And Antichrist accomplishes this have defeating 3 of those horns.

    So that's what I'm looking for, in order to identify him. I'm looking for a defeat of 3 nations, followed by a consolidation of 10 nations into a single empire under one man--the Antichrist. And it will somehow emerge out of nations that trace back to the old Roman imperial tradition.
    Well said, I agree with everything except I think the ten come first, then the 3.

    It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it

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