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Thread: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

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    In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Also, all ten kings eventually get angry at Babylon and attack her further showing all ten are intact and not "plucked up" etc. by the antichrist.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    Last edited by ewq1938; Mar 29th 2019 at 07:01 AM.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    I've recently offered this. The 10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast in Revelation indicate that there will be 10 nations under Antichrist, with only 7 national leaders left in charge of their nations. 3 of the national leaders will be overthrown by the Antichrist, leaving only 7 heads over those 10 nations.

    We don't actually hear this stated in the book of Revelation, and so it is purely conjecture on my part. If there is any hint that this is so, I'd like to hear it?

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've recently offered this. The 10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast in Revelation indicate that there will be 10 nations under Antichrist, with only 7 national leaders left in charge of their nations. 3 of the national leaders will be overthrown by the Antichrist, leaving only 7 heads over those 10 nations.

    We don't actually hear this stated in the book of Revelation, and so it is purely conjecture on my part. If there is any hint that this is so, I'd like to hear it?
    That still contradicts what is written here:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. There isn't a loss of 3.

    In addition:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    Because as I have always said they are not the same beast. one was the OT beast Greece Antiochus epehanies and the other was the NT beast Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    Because as I have always said they are not the same beast. one was the OT beast Greece Antiochus epehanies and the other was the NT beast Rome

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Anyone want to explain this?
    You ask a good question. My only explanation is that some prophecies contain detail that other prophecies do not have. There aren't any inconsistencies between the two accounts.

    TEN NATIONS: Turkish Union
    The way I see it, there will be a large moderate Turkish Islamic Union of ten nations, which will be an extension of the Roman Empire. It's the West's buddy Turkey that sets this up from the old Roman capital of Constantinople, with the co-operation of Vatican/EU, making this a modern form of the Roman Empire. (The healed wound of east/West Rome)

    3 WITHIN 10: Expanded Israel
    Part of the Sunni Islamic doctrine is to allow the West a great leader, Isa/Jesus to bring peace between the 3 Torah based religions. But if Jews are going to follow this Isa he will need to look like a Messiah, being in control of an extended Israel up to the Euphrates River. So within the territory of the ten countries "Isa" controls 3 "Messianic" territories and in this way becomes a credible "Messiah" to deceive Israel (The antichrist). Turkey encourages this expanded Israel within the ten nation Turkish Union.

  6. #6

    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    That is a good question, one for which I have no answer. Thanks for raising it though, I look forward to hearing what others have to say.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Maybe the little horn subdues three kings and installs three others of his choosing? In other words, ten kings arise, then the little horn arises. After this, the little horn takes down three who won't go along with the program and replaces them with three who will. The other seven go along and so there are still ten.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've recently offered this. The 10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast in Revelation indicate that there will be 10 nations under Antichrist, with only 7 national leaders left in charge of their nations. 3 of the national leaders will be overthrown by the Antichrist, leaving only 7 heads over those 10 nations.

    We don't actually hear this stated in the book of Revelation, and so it is purely conjecture on my part. If there is any hint that this is so, I'd like to hear it?
    The 7 heads are mentioned again in a consecutive manner in Rev 17. So it is unlikely they are all concurrent with the ten horns.

    It is most likely only the 7th and 8th ones that are concurrent.
    Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Maybe the little horn subdues three kings and installs three others of his choosing? In other words, ten kings arise, then the little horn arises. After this, the little horns takes down three who won't go along with the program and replaces them with three who will. The other seven go along and so there are still ten.
    That is the way I see it, the 3 are still defined territories with leaders, but are subject to one leader.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That still contradicts what is written here:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. There isn't a loss of 3.

    In addition:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.
    Again, this is purely conjecture, but I can conceive of 10 kingdoms being represented as "10 kings" with 3 of the kings having actually been removed by the Antichrist. Who replaces the 3 kings over their kingdoms? Obviously, if they are still kingdoms they must have kings. Perhaps they are removed by Antichrist and replaced by puppet leaders with a diminished capacity. Pure speculation on my part. I have no evidence one way or another!

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That still contradicts what is written here:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. There isn't a loss of 3.

    In addition:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.
    Again, this is purely conjecture, but I can conceive of 10 kingdoms being represented as "10 kings" with 3 of the kings having actually been removed by the Antichrist. Who replaces the 3 kings over their kingdoms? Obviously, if they are still kingdoms they must have kings. Perhaps they are removed by Antichrist and replaced by puppet leaders with a diminished capacity. Pure speculation on my part. I have no evidence one way or another!

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Rev does indicate three heads having Dominion taken away. Notice rev 13 is the fourth beast of Dan 7 coming to power. And the reference to the lion bear leopard which would be the three he subdues. I woul also mention these four are also in view in the first four seals

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rev does indicate three heads having Dominion taken away. Notice rev 13 is the fourth beast of Dan 7 coming to power. And the reference to the lion bear leopard which would be the three he subdues. I woul also mention these four are also in view in the first four seals
    I do agree that Rev 13's 1st Beast is the 4th Beast of Dan 7. That's because the 1st Beast has the 10 horns and 7 heads, which relate back to the 10 horns of the 4th Beast in Dan 7. The 2nd Beast of Rev 13 does not have 10 horns and 7 heads.

    And yes, it is interesting that in Rev 13 the 1st Beast has mention of leopard, bear, and lion. Maybe that's why the 4th Beast of Dan 7 was beyond description, because it contained elements of the 3 earlier beasts? It was not exclusively a single kind of beast?

    So it is reasonable to assume that the 4th Beast defeated and therefore subsumed the qualities of the 3 prior beasts. However, to say these are the 3 *horns* that were defeated by the Little Horn seems a bit more problematic in terms of being clear about this?

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You ask a good question. My only explanation is that some prophecies contain detail that other prophecies do not have. There aren't any inconsistencies between the two accounts.

    TEN NATIONS: Turkish Union
    The way I see it, there will be a large moderate Turkish Islamic Union of ten nations, which will be an extension of the Roman Empire. It's the West's buddy Turkey that sets this up from the old Roman capital of Constantinople, with the co-operation of Vatican/EU, making this a modern form of the Roman Empire. (The healed wound of east/West Rome)

    3 WITHIN 10: Expanded Israel
    Part of the Sunni Islamic doctrine is to allow the West a great leader, Isa/Jesus to bring peace between the 3 Torah based religions. But if Jews are going to follow this Isa he will need to look like a Messiah, being in control of an extended Israel up to the Euphrates River. So within the territory of the ten countries "Isa" controls 3 "Messianic" territories and in this way becomes a credible "Messiah" to deceive Israel (The antichrist). Turkey encourages this expanded Israel within the ten nation Turkish Union.
    It seems the main way some explain this is that Daniels 4th beast is not the Rev 13:1 beast. I can't agree. Both described the last of any "beast kingdoms" this age will see. Both are cast into fire after being defeated. Both are defeated at the end of this age. In Daniel there is a day of judgment and the beast is destroyed by fire. In Rev it is the day of the second coming, Christ defeats the beast and it's army and the beast is cast into fire. Both beasts have ten horns and both are followed by someone commonly called the Antichrist. The two beasts must represent the same beast of the end times. So that brings us full circle to the question why the change from 3 out of 10 kings being "plucked up" yet the AC does not do this to any of the ten horns in Revelation. I say God changed prophecy and gave the edited version to John.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, this is purely conjecture, but I can conceive of 10 kingdoms being represented as "10 kings" with 3 of the kings having actually been removed by the Antichrist.
    Again, scripture says all ten kings are kings for the entire hour with the beast. None can be removed from power according to that. All ten are intact when they all decide to attack Babylon as well. Any way you slice it, Rev does not support the idea of anything happening to three of the ten horns.



    Who replaces the 3 kings over their kingdoms? Obviously, if they are still kingdoms they must have kings. Perhaps they are removed by Antichrist and replaced by puppet leaders with a diminished capacity. Pure speculation on my part. I have no evidence one way or another!
    Yeah the text really doesn't support three being removed and three taking their place...neither in Daniel or Rev.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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