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Thread: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

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    In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Why?

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Also, all ten kings eventually get angry at Babylon and attack her further showing all ten are intact and not "plucked up" etc. by the antichrist.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    Last edited by ewq1938; Mar 29th 2019 at 07:01 AM.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan_7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Dan_7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    Yet when we look at Revelation we do not find any of the kings/horns being "plucked up":

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. The only time any of them fall or are subdued is when the entire beast with all ten horns and 7 heads is defeated by Christ at Armageddon.

    Anyone want to explain this?
    I've recently offered this. The 10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast in Revelation indicate that there will be 10 nations under Antichrist, with only 7 national leaders left in charge of their nations. 3 of the national leaders will be overthrown by the Antichrist, leaving only 7 heads over those 10 nations.

    We don't actually hear this stated in the book of Revelation, and so it is purely conjecture on my part. If there is any hint that this is so, I'd like to hear it?

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've recently offered this. The 10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast in Revelation indicate that there will be 10 nations under Antichrist, with only 7 national leaders left in charge of their nations. 3 of the national leaders will be overthrown by the Antichrist, leaving only 7 heads over those 10 nations.

    We don't actually hear this stated in the book of Revelation, and so it is purely conjecture on my part. If there is any hint that this is so, I'd like to hear it?
    That still contradicts what is written here:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. There isn't a loss of 3.

    In addition:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That still contradicts what is written here:

    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    All ten horns remain as kings with kingdoms the entire "hour" of the GT. There isn't a loss of 3.

    In addition:

    Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Again, all ten kings remain fully intact and even all together attack Babylon which happens at the end or just after the end of the great tribulation. Again this shows none of the ten horns/kings are subdued as we find in Daniel.
    Again, this is purely conjecture, but I can conceive of 10 kingdoms being represented as "10 kings" with 3 of the kings having actually been removed by the Antichrist. Who replaces the 3 kings over their kingdoms? Obviously, if they are still kingdoms they must have kings. Perhaps they are removed by Antichrist and replaced by puppet leaders with a diminished capacity. Pure speculation on my part. I have no evidence one way or another!

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, this is purely conjecture, but I can conceive of 10 kingdoms being represented as "10 kings" with 3 of the kings having actually been removed by the Antichrist.
    Again, scripture says all ten kings are kings for the entire hour with the beast. None can be removed from power according to that. All ten are intact when they all decide to attack Babylon as well. Any way you slice it, Rev does not support the idea of anything happening to three of the ten horns.



    Who replaces the 3 kings over their kingdoms? Obviously, if they are still kingdoms they must have kings. Perhaps they are removed by Antichrist and replaced by puppet leaders with a diminished capacity. Pure speculation on my part. I have no evidence one way or another!
    Yeah the text really doesn't support three being removed and three taking their place...neither in Daniel or Rev.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    This is a very serious issue the Church has failed to understand.

    First, notice that the horn speaks blasphemy, just like the false prophet of Revelation 13 that speaks as a dragon.

    These two are the same. Secondly, the horns are not the "AC" (antichrist). The antichrist is misnomer, rather the "mystery of lawlessness" is a spirit of man-worship which rises from within (the midst) at the end times.

    The false prophet ... is a horn, with a mouth, and uproots 3 horns. Knowing that the nation of Israel is a false prophecy, and that in fact, Israel is the manifestation of Gog and the surrounding nations occupying God's holy land as impostors.... We then know that the 3 horns uprooted are:


    Egypt
    Jordan (Ammon)
    Syria
    [1948]
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post

    The false prophet ... is a horn, with a mouth, and uproots 3 horns.
    The FP is mentioned in Rev. Nowhere in Rev does the FP uproot any horns. All ten horns remain firmly planted throughout the entire trib.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The FP is mentioned in Rev. Nowhere in Rev does the FP uproot any horns. All ten horns remain firmly planted throughout the entire trib.
    The ten horned beast in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are the same, yes?

    The false prophet sets up an image of the beast is a dragon..... identified by his speech (lies), and hence, is called the false prophet.

    The proud horn uttering blasphemy is that same false prophet, if you count the ten horns, remove three of them... the proud horn of Dan 7 is AN 8TH KING.

    Both of these are thrown into the "blazing fire" (Dan 7:11 / Rev 19:11-20:15) [in Revelation the Beast, False-prophet, Dragon, Death, and Hades... are all thrown into the lake of fire in turn......]

    Doesn't it seem pretty clear that Daniel's account of the terrible beast is a summation of the same things in Revelation 13 and 19-20? Isn't the math on the horns pretty straight forward?

    The ten horns identify the beast's governing structure in the earthly dominion (nations).
    The 7 heads are part of the "Scarlet Beast" (dragon). These heads identify spiritual principalities in the heavenly realm.
    The ten horns are nations/kings that rise in the end times, and Daniel adds a small detail to this. 3 are uprooted.
    The wounded head is a replication of one of the previous 7 (the resurrection of the 7th who is also "8th")

    This reborn kingdom is apostate Israel - who uprooted (lit: humble) 3 kingdoms at its birth: EGYPT, JORDAN, SYRIA
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post

    The proud horn uttering blasphemy is that same false prophet, if you count the ten horns, remove three of them... the proud horn of Dan 7 is AN 8TH KING.
    Except nowhere in Rev do 3 horns get removed so the FP is a a king who has ten kings/kingdoms within his great empire so it's basically 11 kings, but one king rules over all the ten. In Rev 17 where it speaks of 8 kings, it's successive kingdoms, one rising then falling, then another doing the same until we get to the 7th kingdom, where an 8th rises up but is of the 7th so really one king over two kingdoms. The kingdom must change somehow between 7th and 8th to justify there technically being a 7th and an 8th. Anyways, this 7/8th kingdom and it's king are the two beasts of Rev 13, these two beasts also being the 4th beast and the little horn in Daniel.



    Doesn't it seem pretty clear that Daniel's account of the terrible beast is a summation of the same things in Revelation 13 and 19-20? Isn't the math on the horns pretty straight forward?
    Pretty much. There are some things in Daniel that are not found in Rev like no horns being removed but the beast empire with ten horns is the Rev 13:1 beast with ten horns, and the second beast called FP is also who Daniel calls the little horn. Oddly enough the false prophet has two little horns like a lamb which connects him to the little horn both being the leader of the ten horned empire beasts.

    The 7 heads are part of the "Scarlet Beast" (dragon).
    When the Rev 13:1 beast rises up, it has it's own 7 heads. They are likely the same heads the dragon had but this beast is a newer version than the one we see in Rev 12.

    The ten horns are nations/kings that rise in the end times, and Daniel adds a small detail to this. 3 are uprooted.
    That was changed by God by the time John wrote Rev since no longer will any of the ten horns be uprooted.


    The wounded head is a replication of one of the previous 7 (the resurrection of the 7th who is also "8th")
    The 7 heads of the beast are not related to the 7 consecutive kings that rose and fell. The entire Rev 13:1 beast with 7 heads is represented by the 7th and 8th king in Rev 17.



    This reborn kingdom is apostate Israel - who uprooted (lit: humble) 3 kingdoms at its birth: EGYPT, JORDAN, SYRIA
    It has even risen yet so it's not any current nations and Israel doesn't contain 7 kingdoms anyways, let alone all ten kingdoms according to Rev 13. The Rev 13 beast will be far larger and more powerful than Israel, or any singular nation...it will be completely global and it will have a religion worshiping it's leader as God and every human being will serve that false God except a small remnant. Today's Israel does not fit in any sense
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except nowhere in Rev do 3 horns get removed so the FP is a a king who has ten kings/kingdoms within his great empire so it's basically 11 kings, but one king rules over all the ten.
    Revelation doesn't need to say that 3 kings are subdued, Daniel already says it happens, and we know they are the same beast. The little horn of Daniel 7 is described as doing the same things and being destroyed in the same way as the Terrible Beast. Revelation merely adds characteristics to the horn, describing the horn as a beast of it's own (It has eyes).

    What a Beast represents is a depraved mind. The government of man as gone "wild", as having become "mad" (Nebuchadnezzar's insanity)
    What a horn represents is a single kingdom/nation
    The second Beast (FP) rises as a "speaker" for the Terrible Beast in the same way as the little horn becomes a speaker (blasphemer)
    They are destroyed in the same way, and in the same judgement context at the end times (Judgement seat/book of life)

    The 7th head who is resurrected is obviously the apostate Jewish Zealot kingdom. Rome destroyed it, and it was raised again in 1948. It is the 7th and 8th.
    The nature of being the head of a beast demonstrates that the government is opposed to the rule of God, of his authority (rejecting Christ and his divine government) rather it embraces the rule of man (enforces mob mentality democracy)
    The nature of the horn is that it is a nation-state.
    Israel fits both of these criteria. it is a nation-state that defines itself as a great democracy, and rejects the rule of Christ, and claims that the land belongs to it, rather than to God.



    In Rev 17 where it speaks of 8 kings, it's successive kingdoms, one rising then falling, then another doing the same until we get to the 7th kingdom, where an 8th rises up but is of the 7th so really one king over two kingdoms. The kingdom must change somehow between 7th and 8th to justify there technically being a 7th and an 8th. Anyways, this 7/8th kingdom and it's king are the two beasts of Rev 13, these two beasts also being the 4th beast and the little horn in Daniel.




    Oddly enough the false prophet has two little horns like a lamb which connects him to the little horn both being the leader of the ten horned empire beasts.
    From Daniel we know that the little horn is a nation that speaks against God.
    From Revelation we know that the second beast rises from the land. This is a significant clue that links it to Israel. Sea represents gentiles, Land represents Israel (or church).

    The ten horns might not even mean ten literal nations, but rather only that the number of nations comprising the Terrible Beast has reached it's final stage.
    The two horns could mean a grand total of 12 (10+2) and indicate the tribes of Israel. Implicating the 2nd Beast as Judah. The two horns also might merely demonstrate the false-lamb nature of the 2nd Beast.


    The big picture that you're missing though, is that the Beast's nature is not military dominion but rather a thought controlling hegemony among the world order - which already exists.
    The idea that the beast is an entirely powerful central government is unsubstantiated.
    The Beast is shown in the scriptural narrative as having a conflict in following God's laws.
    Hence, we can see that the Pauline "mystery of lawlessness" is being revealed in the international rejection of Christian morality, as it enshrines the "rights of man" and redefines human dignity. The essential reversal of the created order of things, family values, and spiritual attitudes. The Beast is equivalent to the "man of sin" which is not a singular individual, but the inner man of any and all unbelievers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except nowhere in Rev do 3 horns get removed so the FP is a a king who has ten kings/kingdoms within his great empire so it's basically 11 kings, but one king rules over all the ten.
    Revelation doesn't need to say that 3 kings are subdued, Daniel already says it happens, and we know they are the same beast. The little horn of Daniel 7 is described as doing the same things and being destroyed in the same way as the Terrible Beast. Revelation merely adds characteristics to the horn, describing the horn as a beast of it's own (It has eyes).

    What a Beast represents is a depraved mind. The government of man as gone "wild", as having become "mad" (Nebuchadnezzar's insanity)
    What a horn represents is a single kingdom/nation
    The second Beast (FP) rises as a "speaker" for the Terrible Beast in the same way as the little horn becomes a speaker (blasphemer)
    They are destroyed in the same way, and in the same judgement context at the end times (Judgement seat/book of life)

    The 7th head who is resurrected is obviously the apostate Jewish Zealot kingdom. Rome destroyed it, and it was raised again in 1948. It is the 7th and 8th.
    The nature of being the head of a beast demonstrates that the government is opposed to the rule of God, of his authority (rejecting Christ and his divine government) rather it embraces the rule of man (enforces mob mentality democracy)
    The nature of the horn is that it is a nation-state.
    Israel fits both of these criteria. it is a nation-state that defines itself as a great democracy, and rejects the rule of Christ, and claims that the land belongs to it, rather than to God.



    In Rev 17 where it speaks of 8 kings, it's successive kingdoms, one rising then falling, then another doing the same until we get to the 7th kingdom, where an 8th rises up but is of the 7th so really one king over two kingdoms. The kingdom must change somehow between 7th and 8th to justify there technically being a 7th and an 8th. Anyways, this 7/8th kingdom and it's king are the two beasts of Rev 13, these two beasts also being the 4th beast and the little horn in Daniel.




    Oddly enough the false prophet has two little horns like a lamb which connects him to the little horn both being the leader of the ten horned empire beasts.
    From Daniel we know that the little horn is a nation that speaks against God.
    From Revelation we know that the second beast rises from the land. This is a significant clue that links it to Israel. Sea represents gentiles, Land represents Israel (or church).

    The ten horns might not even mean ten literal nations, but rather only that the number of nations comprising the Terrible Beast has reached it's final stage.
    The two horns could mean a grand total of 12 (10+2) and indicate the tribes of Israel. Implicating the 2nd Beast as Judah. The two horns also might merely demonstrate the false-lamb nature of the 2nd Beast.


    The big picture that you're missing though, is that the Beast's nature is not military dominion but rather a thought controlling hegemony among the world order - which already exists.
    The idea that the beast is an entirely powerful central government is unsubstantiated.
    The Beast is shown in the scriptural narrative as having a conflict in following God's laws.
    Hence, we can see that the Pauline "mystery of lawlessness" is being revealed in the international rejection of Christian morality, as it enshrines the "rights of man" and redefines human dignity. The essential reversal of the created order of things, family values, and spiritual attitudes. The Beast is equivalent to the "man of sin" which is not a singular individual, but the inner man of any and all unbelievers.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Revelation doesn't need to say that 3 kings are subdued, Daniel already says it happens, and we know they are the same beast.
    The problem is it does not happen in Rev meaning John's prophecy differs from Daniel's. The loss of the covenant etc must have affected the older prophecy. In Rev all 10 horns are fully in tact and never are 3 removed.



    The 7th head who is resurrected is obviously the apostate Jewish Zealot kingdom.
    No heads are resurrected. One was wounded and would have been fatal unless healed. Wounds healing is a healing not a resurrection.


    Rome destroyed it, and it was raised again in 1948. It is the 7th and 8th.
    I can't agree with any of that. It was never destroyed, just scattered around. It's not the 7th or 8th.


    The nature of being the head of a beast demonstrates that the government is opposed to the rule of God, of his authority (rejecting Christ and his divine government) rather it embraces the rule of man (enforces mob mentality democracy)
    The heads are where governments/kingdoms are located. The heads aren't kingdoms themselves because Rev uses horns to represent those, not heads/mountains.



    Anyways, this 7/8th kingdom and it's king are the two beasts of Rev 13, these two beasts also being the 4th beast and the little horn in Daniel.

    I agree with Daniels 4th beast being the same beast in Rev 13:1, and agree the little horn is the same person as the false prophet. I see the beast as a larger and new world empire, with ten kingdoms within it spanning the world being symbolized by 7 mountains/continents.

    From Daniel we know that the little horn is a nation that speaks against God.
    The little horn is a person.

    The ten horns might not even mean ten literal nations
    I think that idea is a huge mistake. Ten kings with kingdoms is what the scripture gives us.





    The big picture that you're missing though, is that the Beast's nature is not military dominion
    Sure it is.

    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Revelation doesn't need to say that 3 kings are subdued, Daniel already says it happens, and we know they are the same beast.
    The problem is it does not happen in Rev meaning John's prophecy differs from Daniel's. The loss of the covenant etc must have affected the older prophecy. In Rev all 10 horns are fully in tact and never are 3 removed.



    The 7th head who is resurrected is obviously the apostate Jewish Zealot kingdom.
    No heads are resurrected. One was wounded and would have been fatal unless healed. Wounds healing is a healing not a resurrection.


    Rome destroyed it, and it was raised again in 1948. It is the 7th and 8th.
    I can't agree with any of that. It was never destroyed, just scattered around. It's not the 7th or 8th.


    The nature of being the head of a beast demonstrates that the government is opposed to the rule of God, of his authority (rejecting Christ and his divine government) rather it embraces the rule of man (enforces mob mentality democracy)
    The heads are where governments/kingdoms are located. The heads aren't kingdoms themselves because Rev uses horns to represent those, not heads/mountains.



    Anyways, this 7/8th kingdom and it's king are the two beasts of Rev 13, these two beasts also being the 4th beast and the little horn in Daniel.

    I agree with Daniels 4th beast being the same beast in Rev 13:1, and agree the little horn is the same person as the false prophet. I see the beast as a larger and new world empire, with ten kingdoms within it spanning the world being symbolized by 7 mountains/continents.

    From Daniel we know that the little horn is a nation that speaks against God.
    The little horn is a person.

    The ten horns might not even mean ten literal nations
    I think that idea is a huge mistake. Ten kings with kingdoms is what the scripture gives us.





    The big picture that you're missing though, is that the Beast's nature is not military dominion
    Sure it is.

    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post

    Sure it is.

    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    The beast is not a person, and his power is not explicitly linked to military power, nor is the "war" a material war. I don't take the images of John 's image as literal, nor should you.

    What do you make of the imagery of the two beasts being form the sea and land respectively?
    When Gog is drawn out by God "with hooks in his jaws" what do you make of the nature of Gog? What is Gog?
    What is the association of the mind of mad-Nebuchadnezzar with this beast?
    Why does this beast eat grass?
    Why does the grass symbolize in Revelation 8?
    What is the dew of heaven on the back of the beast??


    Consider the types of geographic symbols and their meanings in Jesus teachings
    Sky/Sea/Land/Mountains/Streams

    Trees/Grass/fruit/crops/fish/grapes/olives/

    Sun/moon/stars/Light/dark/smoke/


    Point is this
    -the golden streets of the heavenly city are not real streets in a real city
    -the burned grass and trees and dead fish and ships are not literal objects
    -the burning torch (lamp) named Wormwood that falls to earth and poisons the "rivers" and "springs of water" is not an actual comet

    -The streets are the "way of righteousness"
    -The grass and crops and trees are souls of people and qualities of good in man, the fish are the unreached unbelieving and the ships are the vessels that catch "fish" (souls).
    -The torch is a source of light, and light is a symbol of truth, the poisoned star/torch is a false gospel, killing the spiritual life (spring of water) of men.

    In the same way the beast is not a man, or a thing, it is an abstract representation of the way men govern.
    The mountains are the spiritual strongholds that rule over men, and the horns are the political systems
    The symbol 666 is an expression of how men believe (forehead: "reckon" ) and how act (right hands: works of the hands)

    and on it goes

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post

    Sure it is.

    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    The beast is not a person, and his power is not explicitly linked to military power, nor is the "war" a material war. I don't take the images of John 's image as literal, nor should you.

    What do you make of the imagery of the two beasts being form the sea and land respectively?
    When Gog is drawn out by God "with hooks in his jaws" what do you make of the nature of Gog? What is Gog?
    What is the association of the mind of mad-Nebuchadnezzar with this beast?
    Why does this beast eat grass?
    Why does the grass symbolize in Revelation 8?
    What is the dew of heaven on the back of the beast??


    Consider the types of geographic symbols and their meanings in Jesus teachings
    Sky/Sea/Land/Mountains/Streams

    Trees/Grass/fruit/crops/fish/grapes/olives/

    Sun/moon/stars/Light/dark/smoke/


    Point is this
    -the golden streets of the heavenly city are not real streets in a real city
    -the burned grass and trees and dead fish and ships are not literal objects
    -the burning torch (lamp) named Wormwood that falls to earth and poisons the "rivers" and "springs of water" is not an actual comet

    -The streets are the "way of righteousness"
    -The grass and crops and trees are souls of people and qualities of good in man, the fish are the unreached unbelieving and the ships are the vessels that catch "fish" (souls).
    -The torch is a source of light, and light is a symbol of truth, the poisoned star/torch is a false gospel, killing the spiritual life (spring of water) of men.

    In the same way the beast is not a man, or a thing, it is an abstract representation of the way men govern.
    The mountains are the spiritual strongholds that rule over men, and the horns are the political systems
    The symbol 666 is an expression of how men believe (forehead: "reckon" ) and how act (right hands: works of the hands)

    and on it goes
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  13. #13
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    The beast is not a person
    The first beast isn't a person but the second beast is.


    , and his power is not explicitly linked to military power, nor is the "war" a material war.
    I've already proven that the beast has military power and uses it.


    I don't take the images of John 's image as literal, nor should you.
    There are many symbolic things in Rev, many also explained so we take what is literal as literal and what isn't literal as non-literal.

    What do you make of the imagery of the two beasts being form the sea and land respectively?
    The sea is people so one beast rises out of people forming a new empire, the land can also symbolize something similar but I also see a tie to the pit which is in the Earth/land and see the FP beast rise out of the pit.








    Point is this
    -the golden streets of the heavenly city are not real streets in a real city
    -the burned grass and trees and dead fish and ships are not literal objects
    -the burning torch (lamp) named Wormwood that falls to earth and poisons the "rivers" and "springs of water" is not an actual comet

    -The streets are the "way of righteousness"
    -The grass and crops and trees are souls of people and qualities of good in man, the fish are the unreached unbelieving and the ships are the vessels that catch "fish" (souls).
    -The torch is a source of light, and light is a symbol of truth, the poisoned star/torch is a false gospel, killing the spiritual life (spring of water) of men.

    In the same way the beast is not a man, or a thing, it is an abstract representation of the way men govern.
    The mountains are the spiritual strongholds that rule over men, and the horns are the political systems
    Some of this is right, some not. The mountains are areas of land where the horns, kings and kingdoms reside. These things really can't be spiritualized. You didn't on the horns but you did on the mountains. I agree on the grass and trees etc.

    The symbol 666 is an expression of how men believe (forehead: "reckon" ) and how act (right hands: works of the hands)
    666 is the number of a name, not the mark itself.

    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    1. the mark
    2. the name of the beast
    3. the number of his name

    I think the mark is more related top the image of the beast that came alive. The mark is clearly distinguished from the name of the beast and the number of that name which are like two sides of a coin. One is letters forming a name, one is a number which forms the letters of the name like a mathematical mirror or translator for letters/names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    The beast is not a person
    The first beast isn't a person but the second beast is.


    , and his power is not explicitly linked to military power, nor is the "war" a material war.
    I've already proven that the beast has military power and uses it.


    I don't take the images of John 's image as literal, nor should you.
    There are many symbolic things in Rev, many also explained so we take what is literal as literal and what isn't literal as non-literal.

    What do you make of the imagery of the two beasts being form the sea and land respectively?
    The sea is people so one beast rises out of people forming a new empire, the land can also symbolize something similar but I also see a tie to the pit which is in the Earth/land and see the FP beast rise out of the pit.








    Point is this
    -the golden streets of the heavenly city are not real streets in a real city
    -the burned grass and trees and dead fish and ships are not literal objects
    -the burning torch (lamp) named Wormwood that falls to earth and poisons the "rivers" and "springs of water" is not an actual comet

    -The streets are the "way of righteousness"
    -The grass and crops and trees are souls of people and qualities of good in man, the fish are the unreached unbelieving and the ships are the vessels that catch "fish" (souls).
    -The torch is a source of light, and light is a symbol of truth, the poisoned star/torch is a false gospel, killing the spiritual life (spring of water) of men.

    In the same way the beast is not a man, or a thing, it is an abstract representation of the way men govern.
    The mountains are the spiritual strongholds that rule over men, and the horns are the political systems
    Some of this is right, some not. The mountains are areas of land where the horns, kings and kingdoms reside. These things really can't be spiritualized. You didn't on the horns but you did on the mountains. I agree on the grass and trees etc.

    The symbol 666 is an expression of how men believe (forehead: "reckon" ) and how act (right hands: works of the hands)
    666 is the number of a name, not the mark itself.

    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    1. the mark
    2. the name of the beast
    3. the number of his name

    I think the mark is more related to the image of the beast that came alive. The mark is clearly distinguished from the name of the beast and the number of that name which are like two sides of a coin. One is letters forming a name, one is a number which forms the letters of the name like a mathematical mirror or translator for letters/names.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #14
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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon
    .... We then know that the 3 horns uprooted are:


    Egypt
    Jordan (Ammon)
    Syria
    [1948]
    Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didn’t include Jordan within its boundaries, so you’ll need to replace that option.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: In Daniel the AC overthrows 3 kings/horns. In Revelation this does not happen. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didn’t include Jordan within its boundaries, so you’ll need to replace that option.
    They don't arise from the previous beast. They are part of the beast:

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    It's a current beast not a previous beast the ten horn arise from. It's exactly the same with the final empire beast in Rev 13:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Daniel 7:24 tells us that the 10 horns will arise out of the previous empire, Rome. Even at its greatest extent Rome didn’t include Jordan within its boundaries, so you’ll need to replace that option.
    They don't arise from the previous beast. They are part of the beast:

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    It's a current beast not a previous beast the ten horn arise from. It's exactly the same with the final empire beast in Rev 13:1.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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