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Thread: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

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    How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.


    Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? Same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.


    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


    And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

    Neither book uses the term "Antichrist" but we know that same person is found in both books under a different name. Isn't it clear that the little horn and FP are the AC?


    little horn = false prophet = antichrist.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.


    Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? Same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.


    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


    And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

    Neither book uses the term "Antichrist" but we know that same person is found in both books under a different name. Isn't it clear that the little horn and FP are the AC?


    little horn = false prophet = antichrist.
    Interesting! I always wondered why the Little Horn isn't mentioned in the book of Revelation. But it seems that John is just led to follow the order given in Dan 7, that he rises after Satan and the 10 horns are mentioned in Rev 12.3.

    My only concern about this is it makes the 2nd Beast the Antichrist, which is not a "Little Horn." Actually, the 2nd Beast is not a Horn at all, but a 2nd Beast with 2 Horns!

    Thus, when we are told about the 3 spirits of deception, leading to Armageddon (Rev 16.13), we are given Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. It seems the 2nd Beast, therefore, is the False Prophet?

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    No. What is clear, is they are separate people.
    The two of them are thrown into the Lake of fire when Jesus Returns. Revelation 19:20

    But Satan, who had taken over the body of the 'beast', when he was assassinated, Revelation 13:3-4, is held in chains until near the end of the Millennium, when he makes his final bid for supremacy and is also made to swim in the LoF. Revelation 20:10

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Interesting! I always wondered why the Little Horn isn't mentioned in the book of Revelation. But it seems that John is just led to follow the order given in Dan 7, that he rises after Satan and the 10 horns are mentioned in Rev 12.3.

    My only concern about this is it makes the 2nd Beast the Antichrist, which is not a "Little Horn."
    Daniel doesn't speak of the FP, Rev doesn't speak of the little horn but that doesn't mean Daniel's little horn isn't the FP, nor the FP not the little horn. The AC has many different names.

    Actually, the 2nd Beast is not a Horn at all, but a 2nd Beast with 2 Horns!
    The little horn isn't a horn either. It's symbolism. The horns are kings so the little horn is also a king. A king is just a ruler over a kingdom or empire...The Fp, little horn, and AC are all rulers or kings...

    And there is s clear connection between the little horn and the FP who has two little horns.


    Thus, when we are told about the 3 spirits of deception, leading to Armageddon (Rev 16.13), we are given Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet.
    No, we are given "Satan, the beast, and the False Prophet"

    It is the FP that is the one we call the AC, the beast is the same as the little horns beast...it's his empire or kingdom.

    It seems the 2nd Beast, therefore, is the False Prophet?
    We know that from Rev 13 already.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Daniel doesn't speak of the FP, Rev doesn't speak of the little horn but that doesn't mean Daniel's little horn isn't the FP, nor the FP not the little horn. The AC has many different names.

    The little horn isn't a horn either. It's symbolism. The horns are kings so the little horn is also a king. A king is just a ruler over a kingdom or empire...The Fp, little horn, and AC are all rulers or kings...

    And there is s clear connection between the little horn and the FP who has two little horns.

    No, we are given "Satan, the beast, and the False Prophet"

    It is the FP that is the one we call the AC, the beast is the same as the little horns beast...it's his empire or kingdom.

    We know that from Rev 13 already.
    My big problem with this is your mixing of the metaphors. If a Little Horn is referred to in Dan 7, it doesn't matter that it refers to a king or to a kingdom. What matters is that in the book of Revelation reference is made to that *symbol*--the Little Horn.

    But we don't get that. And so, matching the Little Horn of Dan 7 with the 1st or 2nd beast of Rev 13 is difficult. I associate the Little Horn with the 1st Beast of Rev 13 only because the 1st Beast has the full set of data associated with the 4th Beast of Dan 7. The 1st Beast of Rev 13 has 10 horns and also human characteristics, indicating an individual leader. This, for me, has to be the Antichrist.

    The 2nd Beast of Rev 13 is very problematic for me, in this regard. It doesn't have any of the data associated with the 4th Beast of Dan 7. It doesn't have the 10 horns.

    What we do have, however, is this 2nd Beast being described later as the False Prophet. And he appears to stand in distinction with the beast, whom I assume to be the Antichrist. So we have the Antichrist, as well as the False Prophet, who causes the world to worship the Antichrist.

    But I do understand your position, and respect it. I know that in the Early Church there were those who believed the 2nd Beast was the Antichrist, an historically-dignified position. And it has caused me no end of confusion seeing that we appear to have not just one Antichrist here, but two of them! In the Early Church the Fathers tended to take just one Antichrist over two of them! It was either the 1st Beast of the 2nd Beast.

    Some have felt that the 2nd Beast was indeed the False Prophet, and that the False Prophet *is* the Antichrist! In this scenario, the 1st Beast would be the Kingdom of Antichrist, whereas the False Prophet would be the Antichrist himself.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My big problem with this is your mixing of the metaphors. If a Little Horn is referred to in Dan 7, it doesn't matter that it refers to a king or to a kingdom.
    It matters greatly. Daniels 4th beast is not the AC because it is a kingdom not a king. The horns are kings. That's how people are able to determine that the little horn is the same person John referred as Antichrist. All we have to do is use similar determining to identify the AC in Revelation. We first identify the beast kingdom/empire and then identify the singular king or leader who appears after the beast just like in Daniel.

    What matters is that in the book of Revelation reference is made to that *symbol*--the Little Horn.
    Yes that matters and we find that in the person who appears after the beast kingdom, and has two little horns. Daniels visions are different than Johns but there are some similarities and this is one of them. Who John calls false prophet is the same one Daniel called the little horn. Paul uses man of sin. It's all the same person.





    But we don't get that. And so, matching the Little Horn of Dan 7 with the 1st or 2nd beast of Rev 13 is difficult. I associate the Little Horn with the 1st Beast of Rev 13 only because the 1st Beast has the full set of data associated with the 4th Beast of Dan 7. The 1st Beast of Rev 13 has 10 horns and also human characteristics, indicating an individual leader. This, for me, has to be the Antichrist.
    That's just personification. The first beast is not a person but is ten kingdoms within 7 mountains. It is equal to Daniels beast except Daniel didn't mention the heads/mountains. The issue here is you are seeing an individual in the first beast when none is described there. The only individual that is found is the FP who takes complete control over the beast kingdom and it's ten kings. Same thing in Daniel except the AC overthrows 3 kings but it demonstrates his power and authority.


    The 2nd Beast of Rev 13 is very problematic for me, in this regard. It doesn't have any of the data associated with the 4th Beast of Dan 7. It doesn't have the 10 horns.
    You are comparing the wrong things. The beasts are to be compared, and the two individuals are to be compared.

    It's this simple:

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.




    But I do understand your position, and respect it. I know that in the Early Church there were those who believed the 2nd Beast was the Antichrist, an historically-dignified position. And it has caused me no end of confusion seeing that we appear to have not just one Antichrist here, but two of them!
    The AC you believe in does not exist though. Neither beast whether in Daniel or Rev 13:1 has a singular person initially. I know it says he and him and has a mouth but Greek grammar demands male pronouns when the nouns are masculine. It doesn't matter if it's a person or a tree etc. He and him there does not show personhood. As you said, the early church knew this. The believe of the AC someone being in or of the first beast is a newer interpretation and is simply incorrect and contradicts the examples of beast and AC in Daniel. While the two books have differences regarding these things, they both match as far as the beast kingdom with ten horns first, then the AC coming next.

    Some have felt that the 2nd Beast was indeed the False Prophet, and that the False Prophet *is* the Antichrist! In this scenario, the 1st Beast would be the Kingdom of Antichrist, whereas the False Prophet would be the Antichrist himself.
    And that is the correct interpretation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Here a ten horned beast arises and after it rises the little horn who takes control of this ten horned kingdom.

    Who do you think the little horn is in Revelation? Same guy that arises AFTER the ten horned beast rises up.

    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Same beast Daniel described but with the added 7 heads.

    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    And here comes the little horn just like it is in Daniel.

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

    Neither book uses the term "Antichrist" but we know that same person is found in both books under a different name. Isn't it clear that the little horn and FP are the AC?

    little horn = false prophet = antichrist.
    I finally get your logic as to why you think the False Prophet is the AC.
    However in the quote of Rev 13 we have the dragon mentioned, a beast mentioned and another beast mentioned. In total THREE beasts.
    The dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns yet is a SINGLE being - Satan.
    The first beast mentioned (after the dragon) is described in a similar manner in Rev 13:1, which you have NOT quoted. It is however a SINGLE being - the AC.
    The second beast mentioned (is described differently) and though it has TWO horns (nubs) it is also a SINGLE being - the FP.

    Further the FP gets people to worship the first beast and not himself, yet in 13:8 the AC gets people to worship himself.
    You also get wrong this in your logic claim:
    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast.

    You claim the FP has authority and power over the ten horned beast, but Rev 13:12 states the OPPOSITE, that the FP receives power and authority from the 1st beast, even as the 1st beast receives power and authority from the dragon. Are you claiming the 1st beast, and thus the FP has power and authority over Satan?

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    ewq1938, Revelation 17 says there's an eighth head or king associated with the beast. Where does this fit into your scenario? If you could, please try to keep it simple for a dummy like me.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938
    How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!
    Here is how to do it. We lay Daniels ‘beast’ timeline down starting from Babylon and finishing with the ‘little horn’ who displaces 3 of the previous 10 horns.

    Then we superimpose the Revelation timeline (but starting from Egypt – the first oppressor) and match up the 2 timelines. Notice how different prophets use different symbols. Revelations ‘heads’ equate with Daniels ‘beasts’.

    Notice how John’s ‘one is’ (Rev 17:10) refers to the empire in existence at the time of his vision. But he doesn’t mention the detail of the 3 kings who were displaced. We have to rely on Daniel for that detail.





    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    ewq1938, Revelation 17 says there's an eighth head or king associated with the beast. Where does this fit into your scenario? If you could, please try to keep it simple for a dummy like me.
    Not dumb at all! The 8th ‘head’ is one of the previous 'heads' that had been healed from a deadly wound. I believe it will be a renewed Islamic caliphate.
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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Timeline to go with previous post.

    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Revelations ‘heads’ equate with Daniels ‘beasts’.
    No, Rev speaks of 7 kings who are successive kingdoms like the 4 beasts of Daniel. The heads on the last beast in Rev 13 are not successive nor are the kings and kingdoms but are areas of land where ten kings and kingdoms exist...also not consecutive.


    Notice how John’s ‘one is’ (Rev 17:10) refers to the empire in existence at the time of his vision.
    That's the Roman's.

    But he doesn’t mention the detail of the 3 kings who were displaced. We have to rely on Daniel for that detail.
    Johns vision does not have any of the ten horns being displaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Revelations ‘heads’ equate with Daniels ‘beasts’.
    No, Rev speaks of 7 kings who are successive kingdoms like the 4 beasts of Daniel. The heads on the last beast in Rev 13 are not successive nor are the kings and kingdoms but are areas of land where ten kings and kingdoms exist...also not consecutive.


    Notice how John’s ‘one is’ (Rev 17:10) refers to the empire in existence at the time of his vision.
    That's the Roman's.

    But he doesn’t mention the detail of the 3 kings who were displaced. We have to rely on Daniel for that detail.
    Johns vision does not have any of the ten horns being displaced.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938
    No, Rev speaks of 7 kings who are successive kingdoms like the 4 beasts of Daniel. The heads on the last beast in Rev 13 are not successive nor are the kings and kingdoms but are areas of land where ten kings and kingdoms exist...also not consecutive.
    5 kings have fallen, 1 is ... (Rev 17:10) That means successive.

    At the time of writing John saw 5 former oppressors of the people of God, and 1 standing. The 7th had not yet come. That means consecutive.
    "Your name and renown
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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    5 kings have fallen, 1 is ... (Rev 17:10) That means successive.
    Yes, very much so. But those kings aren't the 7 heads that are upon the Rev 13:1 beast because those appear and exist all at the same time.

    At the time of writing John saw 5 former oppressors of the people of God, and 1 standing. The 7th had not yet come. That means consecutive.
    Yes it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    5 kings have fallen, 1 is ... (Rev 17:10) That means successive.
    Yes, very much so. But those kings aren't the 7 heads that are upon the Rev 13:1 beast because those appear and exist all at the same time.

    At the time of writing John saw 5 former oppressors of the people of God, and 1 standing. The 7th had not yet come. That means consecutive.
    Yes it does.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Ah, ok, I see what you are saying. You are treating the Revelation 12 beast as separate from the Revelation 17 vision. I think Revelation 12 is a broad overview showing Satan as the source of all the beast kingdoms. Then chapter 17 provides the detail. The ‘heads’ are referring to the same ones.
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    Re: How to identify the AC in the book of Revelation using the book of Daniel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Ah, ok, I see what you are saying. You are treating the Revelation 12 beast as separate from the Revelation 17 vision.
    Of course. Rev 12 shows a previous version of his beast empire. What rises in Rev13:1 is a newer and stronger version. Rev 17 speaks of that beast not specifically the dragon and horns etc in Rev 12.

    I think Revelation 12 is a broad overview showing Satan as the source of all the beast kingdoms. Then chapter 17 provides the detail.
    Yeah that's close to how I see it.


    The ‘heads’ are referring to the same ones.
    Assuming you think the heads are beasts themselves, no...the heads are simply mountains of the beast where he sets up ten kingdoms and kings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Ah, ok, I see what you are saying. You are treating the Revelation 12 beast as separate from the Revelation 17 vision.
    Of course. Rev 12 shows a previous version of his beast empire. What rises in Rev13:1 is a newer and stronger version. Rev 17 speaks of that beast not specifically the dragon and horns etc in Rev 12.

    I think Revelation 12 is a broad overview showing Satan as the source of all the beast kingdoms. Then chapter 17 provides the detail.
    Yeah that's close to how I see it.


    The ‘heads’ are referring to the same ones.
    Assuming you think the heads are beasts themselves, no...the heads are simply mountains of the beast where he sets up ten kingdoms and kings.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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