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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #136

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    A very confused and biased post.
    Obviously 'second death' mean they can and will die again, but because their names are in the Book of Life, that death cannot hold them and at the GWTJ, they will become immortal.
    Something to consider:
    Verse 4 no doubt are souls of beheaded saints with Christ 1000-years.
    Verse 5 is the resurrection of the sinners who died without Christ, and they were resurrected after the 1000-year period.
    Verse 6 is referring to the ones in verse 4 who were martyred. John was saying they were blessed because they had part in the first resurrection. Christ is the 1st resurrection of the saints and blessed are those that hath part in Christ resurrection. He is describing for the saints that they already had part in the 1st death, which is the death and resurrection of their souls, being born again. The 2nd death has no power over them. Their souls do reign with Christ 1000-years while their body is in the grave. But Christ will also be the physical 1st Resurrection of the saints too, which will be at the end of the 1000-years. This is the only natural resurrection that is supported by scripture. However, Christ is not a spiritual 1st resurrection for those who are without Christ or died without Christ. The only death they will have is physical and the only resurrection they will ever have is a physical. But they will have a 2nd death.


    This is the same example Apostle Paul gave and aligns with that of John regarding the resurrection of the saints being spiritual: We have part in Christ death by baptism and we have part in his resurrection by walking in the newness of life, being in the likeness of his resurrection. Paul describes that we also are planted together in the likeness of his death. Being crucified ourselves. If we be dead with Christ, then are resurrected in Christ in the likeness of his resurrection and we live with him. And this does not change in the natural death of those beheaded for the witness of Christ. When your soul is risen in Christ, the death of your natural body does not terminate this reign.
    Romans 6:
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rev 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

  2. #137
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your position is not actually supported scripturally. It makes no sense for the dead to rise and then die again Also, it is impossible for the righteous in Christ to rise without having immortality. Actually, FHG's post #133 is absolutely in line with scripture.
    Why does the Bible say; second death, if there isn't that possibility?
    Lazarus died, was brought back to life, then died again. On the Last Day; that is after the Millennium, he will rise again and receive eternal life. John 11:24

    It is the 'rapture to heaven' that confuses all who believe in that false doctrine. You must have a spiritual change for that to happen, so you read into the scriptures something that actually isn't there.
    The 'rising' that Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:17, isn't to heaven at all, it is just a transportation to where Jesus will be then. Matthew 24:30-31 proves it.

    You say FHG is in line with scripture. The Bible is plain; Only at the GWT Judgement is immortality conferred- to those whose names are written in the Book of Life.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about that time. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more.

  3. #138
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    A very confused and biased post.
    Obviously 'second death' mean they can and will die again, but because their names are in the Book of Life, that death cannot hold them and at the GWTJ, they will become immortal.
    Actually as it STATES "over such (that is those who take part in the first resurrection) the second death has no power" it clearly means they CANNOT die a Second Death.
    Please try to stick with what scripture CLEARLY states BEFORE going onto more complex things.

  4. #139
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually as it STATES "over such (that is those who take part in the first resurrection) the second death has no power" it clearly means they CANNOT die a Second Death.
    Please try to stick with what scripture CLEARLY states BEFORE going onto more complex things.
    We use different translations of the bible and we look at it from different perspectives, so what is clear to you, is clear to me in another way.

    Some points on this issue:
    Rev 20:4 says those martyrs will be brought back to life. No mention of immortality there.
    The precedent for this was Lazarus and also the girl Jesus healed and the boy Elijah brought back to life. All lived again and then died again; in the normal way.

    Revelation 21:1-7 says that it is only after the Millennium that people will receive immortality and Death will be no more. You contradict this in your belief of immortality before then.
    Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15 is proved to be about then, by verse 55...Death where is your victory?.....and verse 24 Then comes he end...victory over all powers...

    The 'second death' for most people will be the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:14 After they are Judged at the GWT.
    But the second death of those resurrected martyrs is to await their final resurrection into Eternal life.

  5. #140
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We use different translations of the bible and we look at it from different perspectives, so what is clear to you, is clear to me in another way.
    Makes no difference with the translation.
    1) As it is what was originally written that is most important.
    2) The KJV states the SAME thing.
    Rev 20:6* Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Now if you don't understand the English used in the KJV then it is time to use another translation.

    Some points on this issue:
    Rev 20:4 says those martyrs will be brought back to life. No mention of immortality there.
    The precedent for this was Lazarus and also the girl Jesus healed and the boy Elijah brought back to life. All lived again and then died again; in the normal way.
    In verse it does NOT state immortality is correct. However verse 4 is NOT stated in a vacuum. Verse 6 clarifies that this means immortality. Further we find that there is no mention of them dying again. Additionally a resurrection means a change of state, so yes they will be living and reigning with Christ. Lastly, who is resurrected to live and reign with Christ? This is answered from other scripture.

    Revelation 21:1-7 says that it is only after the Millennium that people will receive immortality and Death will be no more. You contradict this in your belief of immortality before then.
    Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15 is proved to be about then, by verse 55...Death where is your victory?.....and verse 24 Then comes he end...victory over all powers...
    Nope. Rev 21 is DURING the Millennium. Death is no more is in the NJ. However those outside have no access to the Tree of Life.
    1 Cor 15 is actually about what happens shortly BEFORE the NJ.

    The 'second death' for most people will be the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:14 After they are Judged at the GWT.
    But the second death of those resurrected martyrs is to await their final resurrection into Eternal life.
    The second death is for ALL people, not just some people. It has no other meaning.
    A resurrected person does NOT face a second death and has ALREADY been resurrected to eternal life.

  6. #141
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    FJG said: Nope. Rev 21 is DURING the Millennium. Death is no more is in the NJ. However those outside have no access to the Tree of Life.
    1 Cor 15 is actually about what happens shortly BEFORE the NJ. Quote

    Keraz replies: You would be the first person I have ever heard that says Revelation 21 happens during the Millennium. Feel a bit lonely?
    Death is no more ONLY for Eternity. Not before.

    I agree about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56; it is a prophecy of the Great White Throne Judgment, that happens just before the New Jerusalem comes to the earth.

  7. #142
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    FJG said: Nope. Rev 21 is DURING the Millennium. Death is no more is in the NJ. However those outside have no access to the Tree of Life.
    1 Cor 15 is actually about what happens shortly BEFORE the NJ.

    Keraz replies: You would be the first person I have ever heard that says Revelation 21 happens during the Millennium. Feel a bit lonely?
    Death is no more ONLY for Eternity. Not before.
    Death is indeed no more for those who HAVE eternal life.
    However the end of the Second Death is not until AFTER the GWToJ.
    I don't feel lonely simply because you haven't come across a scriptural reality before.

    There are lots of reasons WITHIN Rev 21 and 22 to note it is DURING the MK, and also when taken in conjunction with Isaiah 65 & 66.

    I agree about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56; it is a prophecy of the Great White Throne Judgment, that happens just before the New Jerusalem comes to the earth.
    Not sure what you are agreeing about. 1 Cor 15:50 - 56 is NOT about the GWToJ. I think because you have the erroneous idea thta the NJ is NOT at the START of the MK you seem to think our views are aligned.
    Read what is stated about the NJ, it IS about the place Jesus has prepared for His people, which comes out of heaven to earth as we descend WITH Him from the rapture which was to the clouds.

  8. #143
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Death is indeed no more for those who HAVE eternal life.
    However the end of the Second Death is not until AFTER the GWToJ.
    I don't feel lonely simply because you haven't come across a scriptural reality before.

    There are lots of reasons WITHIN Rev 21 and 22 to note it is DURING the MK, and also when taken in conjunction with Isaiah 65 & 66.


    Not sure what you are agreeing about. 1 Cor 15:50 - 56 is NOT about the GWToJ. I think because you have the erroneous idea thta the NJ is NOT at the START of the MK you seem to think our views are aligned.
    Read what is stated about the NJ, it IS about the place Jesus has prepared for His people, which comes out of heaven to earth as we descend WITH Him from the rapture which was to the clouds.
    You are directly contradicting Revelation 21:1-7, when you say the New Jerusalem come with Jesus at His Return. And as for us Christians accompanying Jesus as he Returns with His angelic army, that is simply fairy tale stuff. Pauls prophecy I 1 Thess 4:17, is merely a transportation thru the clouds to where Jesus is, in Jerusalem; AFTER He has disposed of the Anti-Christ and his armies. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 and Luke 21:28

    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is absolutely about the GWT Judgment. Only then is Death no more. Revelation 20:14

  9. #144
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You are directly contradicting Revelation 21:1-7, when you say the New Jerusalem come with Jesus at His Return. And as for us Christians accompanying Jesus as he Returns with His angelic army, that is simply fairy tale stuff. Pauls prophecy I 1 Thess 4:17, is merely a transportation thru the clouds to where Jesus is, in Jerusalem; AFTER He has disposed of the Anti-Christ and his armies. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 and Luke 21:28
    Nope, no contradiction with Rev 21:1 - 7. Please state what verse EXACTLY you think is being contradicted.
    And the next point is what is stated in the bible, so IF you equate the Bible with fairy tale...
    Paul's prophecy is NOT merely transportation as it STARTS with a RESURRECTION - so those who died IN Christ are brought back to life - THEN we have a transportation TOGETHER and meet Jesus, which is amazing! And this is NOT in Jerusalem as you claim, but in the clouds (though I expect it will be over Jerusalem). And this is BEFORE He lands on earth and wipes out the AC.
    Further Jesus has GONE to prepare a place for US, so that we will have a place WHEN He returns. A place to live, and this is what the NJ is. We will live with Him in Jerusalem.
    Actually Matt 24:30 -31 supports my view, for notice He is seen in the clouds. Whilst here He collects His elect.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is absolutely about the GWT Judgment. Only then is Death no more. Revelation 20:14
    Simple question, is death no more for Jesus?
    Well before He was resurrected He could die, and did die.
    Yet AFTER He was resurrected death no longer had a hold on Jesus.
    1 Cor 15:50 -56 is about death no longer having a hold on those who are His, who are clothed in the imperishable, and are clothed in immortality.
    It has NOTHING to do with the GWToJ.
    It does NOT say that death has died for EVERYBODY. No it states it ONLY in relation to those who are found IN Him.

  10. #145
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    You are a dreamer, FHG.
    People here can see how you reject what scripture actually says and replace it with what you want it to say.
    For example: Who will accompany Jesus at His Return? His angelic army, that's all. Proved by Matthew 16:27 & 25:31, Revelation 19:14, all state that the armies of heaven follow Him. The other descriptions translate the Greek word 'hagios', as; the holy ones, or wrongly as 'saints'. Thinking that 'hagios' used there does mean people, creates a Biblical anomaly, a no-no.
    So you are quite wrong in your belief that people will go to heaven and then Return with Jesus, as I say: just a fairy tale.

    Jesus is the First fruits of the Resurrection and of immortality. We who follow Him have His Promise that we will have Eternal life. John 3:16 But when this happens is obviously not immediate and is not said to happen at the Return, ONLY after the Millennium, at the GWTJ, when the Book of Life is opened, will immortality be given to those who have proved their faith thru all that is prophesied to happen in our future.

  11. #146
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You are a dreamer, FHG.
    People here can see how you reject what scripture actually says and replace it with what you want it to say.
    Which scripture have I rejected? None. I have in fact focused on the CONTEXT of the scriptures and shown that your claim is NOT based on those scriptures, but on some idea you have created.

    For example: Who will accompany Jesus at His Return? His angelic army, that's all. Proved by Matthew 16:27 & 25:31, Revelation 19:14, all state that the armies of heaven follow Him. The other descriptions translate the Greek word 'hagios', as; the holy ones, or wrongly as 'saints'. Thinking that 'hagios' used there does mean people, creates a Biblical anomaly, a no-no.
    So you are quite wrong in your belief that people will go to heaven and then Return with Jesus, as I say: just a fairy tale.
    When you say who? The question is FROM WHERE?
    From heaven, I agree with you (though others based on the KJV would argue saints also).
    However we MEET Jesus in the clouds BEFORE He arrives in Jerusalem, as is clear from 1 Thess 4, therefore where do we go? We STAY with Him is the simple answer.
    So actually you are NOT providing an argument contrary to what I have stated. You are arguing against me as if I held pre-trib views, which I don't.

    Jesus is the First fruits of the Resurrection and of immortality. We who follow Him have His Promise that we will have Eternal life. John 3:16 But when this happens is obviously not immediate and is not said to happen at the Return, ONLY after the Millennium, at the GWTJ, when the Book of Life is opened, will immortality be given to those who have proved their faith thru all that is prophesied to happen in our future.
    It happens IN ORDER as 1 Cor 15 states. It IS stated to happen at the Return:
    1Co 15:42* So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.*
    1Co 15:43* It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.*
    1Co 15:44* It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.*

    Do you know what imperishable means?
    1Co 15:48* As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.*
    1Co 15:49* Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

    The question is ARE WE of heaven?
    If we are then we will bear the image of the man of heaven.
    Note this:
    1Co 15:51* Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Paul states that some will be alive and others not, but ALL shall be changed.
    Yet at Jesus' return there is a resurrection to life, and AFTER that there are no more who shall sleep who are IN Him.
    So this statement ONLY makes sense at the time of the Rapture when those who were asleep will rise to life along with those remaining who are alive.

  12. #147
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It happens IN ORDER as 1 Cor 15 states. It IS stated to happen at the Return:
    1Co 15:42* So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.*
    1Co 15:43* It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.*
    1Co 15:44* It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.*
    It happens at the Return? Purely your wrong opinion.
    Pauls prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:42-56 is entirely about what will happen after the Millennium. It is NOT stated to happen at the Return.
    I have proved this before with the fact that only after the GWT, will Death be no more. Revelation 21:1-7 Your false beliefs blind you to the truth.

  13. #148

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It happens at the Return? Purely your wrong opinion.
    Pauls prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:42-56 is entirely about what will happen after the Millennium. It is NOT stated to happen at the Return.
    I have proved this before with the fact that only after the GWT, will Death be no more. Revelation 21:1-7 Your false beliefs blind you to the truth.
    I agree with your post. Apostle Paul does an excellent job to describe the events that take place. Paul places both the resurrection and the final judgment in one day. He refers to it as in, "that day" and not days or millennials.

    He describes; when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, in that day.

    Consider that when the books were written, there were no chapters nor verses. Chapters 1 & 2 are merged as one topic.

    Notice again, as Paul continues to reiterate, "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (2 Thes 2:1)", which he already reiterated the exact same thing in previous passage (2 Thes 1:7) "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels".

    But notice again he states it one more time, "in that day" (2 Thes 2:3), just in case you missed it in the previous verse (2 Thes 1:10), when he keeps saying, "in that day". That by the coming of the Lord and "our gathering together unto him", (which he also stated in previous passage (2 Thes 1:7), "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."

    But can you see that he specifically says it will be after the man of sin (son of perdition) has been revealed (2 Thes 2:8)? Again destroyed with the brightness of his coming, whose coming is after...

    Yet the premils and pretribs will say, Huh? I don't get it? Yeah but Paul really meant something totally different when he wrote all that.... You know, Paul is so difficult to understand in his writings because he speaks in so many riddles. You know how Paul is.....?

    2 Thessalonians 1
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

  14. #149

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    In every place that the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is used in the same contexts as the phrase "IN THAT DAY," they refer to the same time period (which is not merely a singular 24-hr day); and this is ALSO the case in 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2 (and this clearly demonstrates that it is not merely made up on one singular 24-hr day).

    "The Day of the Lord"/"IN THAT DAY" refers to one or more of the following (depending on CONTEXT; but "the DOTL" consists of ALL THREE):

    1) the 7-yr tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion)

    2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

    3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign...GLORIOUSLY" portion)


    ALL 3 of these (and ALL "earthly-located" time period).

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It happens at the Return? Purely your wrong opinion.
    Pauls prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:42-56 is entirely about what will happen after the Millennium. It is NOT stated to happen at the Return.
    I have proved this before with the fact that only after the GWT, will Death be no more. Revelation 21:1-7 Your false beliefs blind you to the truth.
    Nowhere does Paul state this is about what happens AFTER the Millennium. This is ENTIRELY your own conjecture, especially based on failing to note that ONLY those who are IN Christ are being discussed as receiving eternal life at this juncture.

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