Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 236

Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #166

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Did you even look at all [6x] that "PERFECT TENSE" is used, for this word (at link)?? Every time, it's speaking of something already present (not soon to be, or upcoming, or at hand)
    It's is self evident what the word "at hand" means. It doesn't require this type of a deep dive into the origin of the word, with the attempt to leverage it a similar meaning, so you can use it to fit your position.

    I am sorry my friend, "at hand" stands on it's own.

  2. #167

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post

    verse 2 - not be troubled because "that the day of Christ is at hand". This is a 2nd reassurance from the previous passages when he already said to them, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7)". This is the gospel of Jesus, "that the day of Christ is at hand.)
    In 2Th1:7, the phrasing is actually: "[you...] rest [/repose] with us IN THE REVELATION..." (it does not use the word "WHEN" nor is it conveying the idea of "will RECEIVE when"... it is just stating the FACT of "[you will] rest with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven"... and the definite article ['the'] distinguishes this from the OTHER way this word is used elsewhere, as just "in revelation" [which, where used, refers to the here and now, and not an eschatological usage, as here])

  3. #168

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    It's is self evident what the word "at hand" means. It doesn't require this type of a deep dive into the origin of the word, with the attempt to leverage it a similar meaning, so you can use it to fit your position.

    I am sorry my friend, "at hand" stands on it's own.
    Used in the PERECT INDICATIVE, it clearly means "IS PRESENT" (ALREADY HERE), and that is what the false teachers and so forth were endeavoring to convince them of, and Paul says, not so! (and WHY).

    The whole CONTEXT is Paul telling how (in what way) our Rapture "FITS" (time-wise) IN RELATION TO "the Day of the Lord" [earthly time period, with MUCH transpiring within it, INCLUDING *ALL* that the "man of sin" is slated to do, within it)

  4. #169

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    In 2Th1:7, the phrasing is actually: "[you...] rest [/repose] with us IN THE REVELATION..." (it does not use the word "WHEN" nor is it conveying the idea of "will RECEIVE when"... it is just stating the FACT of "[you will] rest with us IN THE REVELATION of the Lord Jesus from heaven"... and the definite article ['the'] distinguishes this from the OTHER way this word is used elsewhere, as just "in revelation" [which, where used, refers to the here and now, and not an eschatological usage, as here])
    None of this supports your position, nor is your position supported by scripture.

    The words written are plain. Either its time to change your position, or admit you're not sure that you understand what Paul was trying to say.

    But for you to break apart and create new meaning to words that require no interpretation does nothing but show your position is weak and cannot stand on it's own.

  5. #170

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The words written are plain.
    Indeed they are.

    The Thessalonians had no [supposed] reason to be distraught over HIS ['at hand'] ARRIVAL, why would anyone thinks so??


    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    But for you to break apart and create new meaning to words that require no interpretation does nothing but show your position is weak and cannot stand on it's own.
    I'm not the one creating new meanings, I showed you how the word is used 6x in the "perfect tense, indicative" but you disregard it and it's doubtful you even looked at the other 5 (which never say "IS AT HAND" but always show something as ALREADY PRESENT, and that is indeed what "PERFECT tense [indicative]" MEANS I'm not making things up)


    https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm - "IS PRESENT [G1764 - perfect tense, indicative]"

  6. #171

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The Thessalonians had no [supposed] reason to be distraught over HIS ['at hand'] ARRIVAL, why would anyone thinks so??

    You're taking every bit of this out of context to pervert the scripture, to imply something that it does not imply.

    The Thessalonians were troubled by those who were persecuting and causing them tribulation. Paul spent the whole previous chapter describing the vengeance of the Lord upon them that trouble them. And in multiple places describes the day of the vengeance of the Lord as in "that day". He told them not to be "troubled" because the day of the vengeance of Christ is at hand.

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

    2 Thessalonians 2:2
    "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

    I'm not the one creating new meanings, I showed you how the word is used 6x in the "perfect tense, indicative" but you disregard it and it's doubtful you even looked at the other 5 (which never say "IS AT HAND" but always show something as ALREADY PRESENT, and that is indeed what "PERFECT tense [indicative]" MEANS I'm not making things up)


    https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm - "IS PRESENT [G1764 - perfect tense, indicative]"
    You prove nothing at all. If you want to evaluate a word or phrase, then we will do that within the passage it is used. But am not interested in your side by side comparatives in how the phrase is used in the rest of the bible.

  7. #172

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    You're taking every bit of this out of context to pervert the scripture, to imply something that it does not imply.

    The Thessalonians were troubled by those who were persecuting and causing them tribulation. Paul spent the whole previous chapter describing the vengeance of the Lord upon them that trouble them. And in multiple places describes the day of the vengeance of the Lord as in "that day". He told them not to be "troubled" because the day of the vengeance of Christ is at hand.

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;"

    2 Thessalonians 2:2
    "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
    That's exactly what I am saying (except "Day of the Lord" in v.2).

    So Paul is saying that though they are presently and ongoingly experiencing "persecutions and tribulations," they won't continue to experience it once "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" with its man of sin and all he will DO during those years (from the point in time of his "ARRIVAL," his "presence/parousia," NOT from the point in time of his LAST "END," but from the point of his "BEGINNING" v.9a! with all of his "all power and SIGNS and lying WONDERS, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness..." etc [not at its v.4 ('MIDDLE') nor its v.8b ('END')!]). The 2Th2 context is covering all 7 years (of his), not merely one point in time.

  8. #173

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    ...then if we view...

    --2Th2:7b-8a "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed"

    [to be a close correlation to what we see in Lam2:3-4 (also in a "JUDGMENT" context)]

    --Lamentation 2:3-4 "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" [effectively saying, let 'er rip! i.e. SEAL #1, et al]


    [this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a context; and is the SAME SEQUENCE which 1Th4-5 also presented]

  9. #174

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ...then if we view...

    --2Th2:7b-8a "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed"

    [to be a close correlation to what we see in Lam2:3-4 (also in a "JUDGMENT" context)]

    --Lamentation 2:3-4 "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" [effectively saying, let 'er rip! i.e. SEAL #1, et al]


    [this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this 2Th2:3-9a context; and is the SAME SEQUENCE which 1Th4-5 also presented]
    Yes, Paul was referring to his present time regarding the working of the "mystery of iniquity". It was working then during Paul's time. Satan indeed was very busy doing what he does back then; he deceives. He was deceiving the people. Jesus stated in Matthew 24, that many false profits and antichrists will arise, but the end is not yet.

    Paul was dealing with it then.
    Galatians 2:4
    And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

    But Paul goes on to say that he (God) who now letteth will let, until he (man of sin) be taken out of the way. God is the only one who has power to let the mystery of iniquity work. When he has had enough, he will take him out of the way and destroy him. But God is going to allow Satan to work until it's time for the end to come. Then Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

  10. #175

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    I see it as saying,

    --2Th2:7b-8a "the One restraining at present, will restrain [this is like saying "His right hand" (or "restraining power") is restraining the enemy, in Lam2:3], UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be] [this is like saying "He hath drawn back His right hand," in no longer restraining], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [this is like saying, the enemy will no longer be restrained by Him, but now is saying "have at it!"... IN HIS JUDGMENT on them]" (IOW, "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL [is one entity]... and then "THAT WICKED" is an entirely distinct entity/person)


    Now, I believe that "the One restraining at present" is the Holy Spirit indwelling "the Church which is His body" and once our Rapture takes place [v.1] "THEN shall that Wicked BE REVEALED..."


    [this SEQUENCE repeated 3x in this chpt/context, and is the same sequence as was supplied in 1Th4-5 (1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" and all the other parallels (I've listed before) and what follows thereafter, in that "chronology"]

  11. #176

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    That's exactly what I am saying (except "Day of the Lord" in v.2).

    So Paul is saying that though they are presently and ongoingly experiencing "persecutions and tribulations," they won't continue to experience it once "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" with its man of sin and all he will DO during those years (from the point in time of his "ARRIVAL," his "presence/parousia," NOT from the point in time of his LAST "END," but from the point of his "BEGINNING" v.9a! with all of his "all power and SIGNS and lying WONDERS, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness..." etc [not at its v.4 ('MIDDLE') nor its v.8b ('END')!]). The 2Th2 context is covering all 7 years (of his), not merely one point in time.

    Absolutely not. You are trying your best to fit 7 years in here and that is not what the bible says nor implies. His coming and gathering of the saints is connected to the destruction of the man of sin on one day and "in that day".

    He says it 2 different times in case you missed it the 1st time.

    He says it in (2 Thes 1:7-10) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, in that day.

    He says it in again in (2 Thes 2:1-3) by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, as that the day of Christ is at hand, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, and then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2 Thessalonians 1
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    The scriptures says what it says and you cannot insert time lapses of 7 years in between. If there was 7 years in between, Paul would have said so. So don't re-write the bible to fit your position.

  12. #177

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I see it as saying,

    --2Th2:7b-8a "the One restraining at present, will restrain [this is like saying "His right hand" (or "restraining power") is restraining the enemy, in Lam2:3], UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be] [this is like saying "He hath drawn back His right hand," in no longer restraining], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [this is like saying, the enemy will no longer be restrained by Him, but now is saying "have at it!"... IN HIS JUDGMENT on them]" (IOW, "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL [is one entity]... and then "THAT WICKED" is an entirely distinct entity/person)


    Now, I believe that "the One restraining at present" is the Holy Spirit indwelling "the Church which is His body" and once our Rapture takes place [v.1] "THEN shall that Wicked BE REVEALED..."


    [this SEQUENCE repeated 3x in this chpt/context, and is the same sequence as was supplied in 1Th4-5 (1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" and all the other parallels (I've listed before) and what follows thereafter, in that "chronology"]
    He will be revealed because he is loosed from the bottomless pit and kills the 2 witnesses. Not because the church is raptured. There is no bible that says the church will be taken until the same day as the Lord comes to destroy the wicked one. But the church will be removed prior to the destruction of the wicked, but not more than 1 day. It will be "in that day".

  13. #178

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    The text refers to a number of things:

    V.1 - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges [noun] unto Him (this is our Rapture event [noun])

    V.2 - Paul is essentially saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord is present" (the time period involving judgments and very negative things--"Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light... Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Amos 5:18,20)

    V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)] the man of sin be revealed..."


    This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence as 1Th4-5 stated.

    Here is the color-coded words to illustrate the 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

    1)

    the departure first

    and the man of sin

    be revealed

    2)

    what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

    he

    might be revealed IN HIS TIME

    3)

    only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

    and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

    be revealed



    All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

    Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE", Isa3:13, Rev4-5, Lam2:3-4 (in opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib... (not at its MIDDLE and not at its END)

  14. #179

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    He will be revealed because he is loosed from the bottomless pit and kills the 2 witnesses.
    I disagree that his "BE REVEALED" occurs then. I believe Scripture indicates in many ways that he is revealed at the START of Jesus' opening of the SEALS [when He "STANDS to JUDGE"] at the START of the trib years (not mid-trib or when there is yet remaining 1260 days.

    --2Th2:9a "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin (equals Dan9:27a[26], BEGINNING)

    --2Th2:4 "who opposeth...exalteth...sitteth" (equals Dan9:27b, MIDDLE)

    --2Th2:8b "whom the Lord shall... destroy" (equals Dan9:27c, END)


    ALL 3 parts in BOTH passages (and the SEALS equal "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; and Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [i.e the 4:1/1:19c "future" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [NOT "soon [adverb]," not "quickly [adverb]," not "immediately [adverb]"... which is the "7-yrs/70th-Wk" that I can make out 2520 days from start to finish).

  15. #180

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The text refers to a number of things:

    V.1 - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges [noun] unto Him (this is our Rapture event [noun])

    V.2 - Paul is essentially saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord is present" (the time period involving judgments and very negative things--"Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light... Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Amos 5:18,20)

    V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)] the man of sin be revealed..."


    This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence as 1Th4-5 stated.

    Here is the color-coded words to illustrate the 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

    1)

    the departure first

    and the man of sin

    be revealed

    2)

    what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

    he

    might be revealed IN HIS TIME

    3)

    only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

    and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

    be revealed



    All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

    Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE", Isa3:13, Rev4-5, Lam2:3-4 (in opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib... (not at its MIDDLE and not at its END)
    All we're doing now is going down rabbit holes. The point of all our discussion is, all of it is on one day and in "that day", and not seven years in between.

    The coming of Lord is revealed 1st, with our gathering unto him, which will not happen until after the wicked one is revealed. But his destruction will be at the Lords coming once we have been gathered unto him "in that day".


    2 Thessalonians 1
    4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    If you wish to believe that "until he be taken out of the way" is our the gathering unto him. Then go ahead and believe it. Our gathering to him will be on the same day, prior to the man of sins destruction, "in that day".

    But my view "he" that is taken out of the way is the man of sin, not the church. Paul refers to the man of sin as "he". The church is never referred to as "he".

    But if it puts peace in your heart to believe that, go ahead and believe it. It changes nothing regarding the order of events and the time of events of Paul's teaching.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 12
    Last Post: Apr 7th 2017, 04:28 AM
  2. 7 year tribulation
    By rom826 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 102
    Last Post: Jun 3rd 2015, 08:31 AM
  3. Question About the 7-Year Tribulation Period (moved from BC)
    By mom_of_four in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Mar 4th 2011, 05:38 PM
  4. 7 Year Period Verses
    By Whitey in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Jul 29th 2009, 06:00 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •