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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #181

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    All we're doing now is going down rabbit holes. The point of all our discussion is, all of it is on one day and in "that day", and not seven years in between.
    Well, to be clear, I am not saying there is "seven years between," but am pointing out where Scripture says "the DOTL" BEGINS (and is a lengthy time period involving the 7-yr trib ["DARK"] as well as His Second Coming to the earth, as well as the 1000-yr reign... and we can see Zech14 uses BOTH phrases I pointed out ["the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY"], and clearly describes a time period incl'g the MK [several vv. showing how "IN THAT DAY" refers not to merely "a singular 24-hr day," such as v.8 "IN THAT DAY... in summer and in winter it shall be"]...as just one example of this)

  2. #182

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I disagree that his "BE REVEALED" occurs then. I believe Scripture indicates in many ways that he is revealed at the START of Jesus' opening of the SEALS [when He "STANDS to JUDGE"] at the START of the trib years (not mid-trib or when there is yet remaining 1260 days.

    --2Th2:9a "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin (equals Dan9:27a[26], BEGINNING)

    --2Th2:4 "who opposeth...exalteth...sitteth" (equals Dan9:27b, MIDDLE)

    --2Th2:8b "whom the Lord shall... destroy" (equals Dan9:27c, END)


    ALL 3 parts in BOTH passages (and the SEALS equal "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; and Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [i.e the 4:1/1:19c "future" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [NOT "soon [adverb]," not "quickly [adverb]," not "immediately [adverb]"... which is the "7-yrs/70th-Wk" that I can make out 2520 days from start to finish).
    You may be correct. I have no stake in when the event will occur. Only that the end is at the day of the Lords coming and our gathering unto him will not be until after he (man of sin) is revealed.


    This is what I am trying to drive home. This is what Paul discussed in 2 Thessalonians.

    He goes over it all again in the exact same manner in (1 Corinthians 15:23-24) "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God"


    1 Corinthians 15
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

  3. #183

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    But my view "he" that is taken out of the way is the man of sin, not the church. Paul refers to the man of sin as "he". The church is never referred to as "he".
    Recall, I'd said [the whole] "the Holy Spirit indwelling/sealing/permanently-residing in 'the Church which is His body" ("sealed unto the day of redemption"), so that the ID would be more heavily ON HIM (like in the Lam2:3-4 passage I'm saying is parallel); and...

    yes I've heard the argument that the "Holy Spirit" is always in the "neuter" so this cannot be the "he" here, but I DISAGREE on that point, because there IS a set of Scriptures showing Him to be [worded in the] "masculine" (and it is in especial connection to/with "the Church which is His body" [when it came to exist on the earth, following His resurrection/ascension (with Christ as "HEAD")]) and that is in His designation of "The Comforter/Helper/Paraklētos [G3875] [masculine]" John 16:7 etc (where all found). So no, I see that as a lame reason for rejecting the idea.

  4. #184

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Well, to be clear, I am not saying there is "seven years between," but am pointing out where Scripture says "the DOTL" BEGINS (and is a lengthy time period involving the 7-yr trib ["DARK"] as well as His Second Coming to the earth, as well as the 1000-yr reign... and we can see Zech14 uses BOTH phrases I pointed out ["the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY"], and clearly describes a time period incl'g the MK [several vv. showing how "IN THAT DAY" refers not to merely "a singular 24-hr day," such as v.8 "IN THAT DAY... in summer and in winter it shall be"]...as just one example of this)
    Yes, there will be 7 years of tribulation, but the end is after this period, when the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, and then the destruction on the man of sin "in that day"
    I am going to go down a rabbit hole and say, that with the sun melted and the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together may make for a long day. The sun is definitely not coming up in the morning to mark another day.

    The end of time is then. The last day. Everything else will be outside the realm of time, matter, and dimension as associated with creation. The day will be a great day of the Lord.

  5. #185

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    This is what I am trying to drive home. This is what Paul discussed in 2 Thessalonians.

    He goes over it all again in the exact same manner in (1 Corinthians 15:23-24) "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    I believe I did mention all of the passages that refer to the OT saints who will be "resurrected [to stand again on the earth]" at the END of the days (at the END of the specific "days" referred to in, say, Dan12 context [vv.6-7,1 second half trib, so at END of THAT): Dan12:13 [Daniel], Job19:25-27 [Job], Matt11:8 and parallel [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob], etc... and the Trib saints who DIE in the trib: Rev20:4, etc... But the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods [not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints], that is, all those saved "in this present age [singular]" ("the Church which is His body" [the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]"] from Pentecost to the Rapture). The "they [plural]" in the 1Cor15:23 verse [since it also speaks of "but every man IN HIS OWN ORDER" meaning, there doesn't remain only ONE, but an ORDER to it!], the "they [plural]" refers to the aforementioned listings/passages I just supplied (which will be "resurrected" at His coming... and the part where Paul had said "but I show you a mystery..." and then refers to "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"... <---THESE verses refer specifically to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR] [i.e. in "UNION/IDENTIFICATION-WITH [G4862]" HIM!])

  6. #186

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The end of time is then. The last day.
    "The Last Day" refers to the 7th Millennium (the "sabbatismos" of Hebrews 4:9), which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth (or you could say, at the "DARKNESS" of the evening before, as all prophetic days do), and lasts during that 1000-yrs. This is what all the "THEN [G1534]"s SEQUENTIAL word encompasses. (it is not saying "THEN IMMEDIATELY the end" but "THEN [sequentially-the-next-(3rd)-item-in-the-LIST-of-THREE-THINGS] the end"

  7. #187

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe I did mention all of the passages that refer to the OT saints who will be "resurrected [to stand again on the earth]" at the END of the days (at the END of the specific "days" referred to in, say, Dan12 context [vv.6-7,1 second half trib, so at END of THAT): Dan12:13 [Daniel], Job19:25-27 [Job], Matt11:8 and parallel [Abraham, Isaac, Jacob], etc... and the Trib saints who DIE in the trib: Rev20:4, etc... But the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods [not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints], that is, all those saved "in this present age [singular]" ("the Church which is His body" [the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]"] from Pentecost to the Rapture). The "they [plural]" in the 1Cor15:23 verse [since it also speaks of "but every man IN HIS OWN ORDER" meaning, there doesn't remain only ONE, but an ORDER to it!], the "they [plural]" refers to the aforementioned listings/passages I just supplied (which will be "resurrected" at His coming... and the part where Paul had said "but I show you a mystery..." and then refers to "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"... <---THESE verses refer specifically to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR] [i.e. in "UNION/IDENTIFICATION-WITH [G4862]" HIM!])
    We can take on any passage you wish to take on. But the bible doesn't support but one resurrection at the end of time of the just and unjust.

    The place we discussed in 1 Corinthians 15 is 2 resurrections. The 1st being the resurrection of Christ the firstfruits and the 2nd one being "they that are Christs at his coming.

    1 Corinthians 15
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    If you wish to discuss others, lets please do one at a time. It is very confusing when we introduce more that one passage to discuss.

    If you wish to discuss this one more, then proceed. Or if you wish to move on to another, then pick one.

  8. #188

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    "The Last Day" refers to the 7th Millennium (the "sabbatismos" of Hebrews 4:9), which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth (or you could say, at the "DARKNESS" of the evening before, as all prophetic days do), and lasts during that 1000-yrs. This is what all the "THEN [G1534]"s SEQUENTIAL word encompasses. (it is not saying "THEN IMMEDIATELY the end" but "THEN [sequentially-the-next-(3rd)-item-in-the-LIST-of-THREE-THINGS] the end"
    But what does the bible say? Not what it refers to.

    The bible does not say there will be 1000 years between resurrections or raptures. This is why you are so strong in your position because of revelation 20: 4-6.

    Which is totally taken out of context and does not say the souls were resurrected nor does that theory agree with the teachings of Jesus, Paul (as we just discussed) and Peter. We just got thru discussing Paul and he puts the resurrection of the just and unjust oin one day, "in that day".

  9. #189

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    We can take on any passage you wish to take on. But the bible doesn't support but one resurrection at the end of time of the just and unjust.

    […]
    23 [re: resurrection] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they [plural] that are Christ's at his coming.

    […]

    If you wish to discuss this one more, then proceed. Or if you wish to move on to another, then pick one.
    "but every man [or, each] IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means that there doesn't remain only a SINGULAR "resurrection").

    I believe there are THREE HARVESTS (not merely ONE at one point in time), so I think that relates,... and

    I've said before (perhaps in other threads) how I see "the 144,000" as being the "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest [in those scriptural connections I've supplied on that point: "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" etc] (...not "the Church which is His body [singular]").

    But that's all I've got time for tonight... I need to go eat my dinner. Good night.

  10. #190

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    "but every man [or, each] IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means that there doesn't remain only a SINGULAR "resurrection").

    I believe there are THREE HARVESTS (not merely ONE at one point in time), so I think that relates,... and

    I've said before (perhaps in other threads) how I see "the 144,000" as being the "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest [in those scriptural connections I've supplied on that point: "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" etc] (...not "the Church which is His body [singular]").

    But that's all I've got time for tonight... I need to go eat my dinner. Good night.
    Yes, Christ is the 1st order, being the 1st fruit. He was the 1st resurrection, and he is the 1st resurrection in revelation 20:6. Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st resurrection.


    And regarding the 144,000. I believe their souls were redeemed and raised with him also being included with Christ the 1st fruits. The first fruits refers to Christs offering as the first fruit of the sacrifice of the Mosaic Law. They offered the first fruits of their harvest. So Christ is referred to as the firstfriuts.

    Good night my friend.

  11. #191

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    But what does the bible say? Not what it refers to.

    The bible does not say there will be 1000 years between resurrections or raptures. This is why you are so strong in your position because of revelation 20: 4-6.

    Which is totally taken out of context and does not say the souls were resurrected nor does that theory agree with the teachings of Jesus, Paul (as we just discussed) and Peter. We just got thru discussing Paul and he puts the resurrection of the just and unjust oin one day, "in that day".
    I've shown the comparisons between:

    --Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5; with that of...

    --Isaiah 24:21-22[23]


    ...both of these SET [starting] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, and both of them showing CLEAR REFERENCE to a FURTHER TIME PERIOD which follows on from there (the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22 SEPARATED [time-wise] BY "and AFTER MANY DAYS" which "time reference" Amill-teaching [etc] does NOT account for... Which matches precisely with: Rev20's account; with Dan7:27[25]'s account; with Lk19:12,15,17,19's account; with Lk12:36-37,38,40-42's account; with Rev19:15b's account; and so many more too numerous to spell out here, presently).

    It's been nice talking with you... I needa go eat. Good night!

  12. #192

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I've shown the comparisons between:

    --Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5; with that of...

    --Isaiah 24:21-22[23]


    ...both of these SET [starting] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, and both of them showing CLEAR REFERENCE to a FURTHER TIME PERIOD which follows on from there (the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22 SEPARATED [time-wise] BY "and AFTER MANY DAYS" which "time reference" Amill-teaching [etc] does NOT account for... Which matches precisely with: Rev20's account; with Dan7:27[25]'s account; with Lk19:12,15,17,19's account; with Lk12:36-37,38,40-42's account; with Rev19:15b's account; and so many more too numerous to spell out here, presently).

    It's been nice talking with you... I needa go eat. Good night!
    We will discuss these one at a time, so please paste the scripture you wish to discuss. BTW, I edited the post #191 thinking you were off here, so go back and reread.

  13. #193

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Yes, Christ is the 1st order, being the 1st fruit. He was the 1st resurrection, and he is the 1st resurrection in revelation 20:6. Blessed is he who hath part in the 1st resurrection.


    And regarding the 144,000. I believe their souls were redeemed and raised with him also being included with Christ the 1st fruits. The first fruits refers to Christs offering as the first fruit of the sacrifice of the Mosaic Law. They offered the first fruits of their harvest. So Christ is referred to as the firstfriuts.

    Good night my friend.
    Do you mean, just theirs, or that "their souls" were included with others' also, at the time? (I'm guessing you mean the latter)

    So, I'm guessing you believe the references to "the 144,000" (Rev7 and Rev14) were people in the past [??] rather than people in the future (or no... just that you are referring to their "souls" that didn't exist yet??), do I understand you correctly? I agree that they are called "firstfruit," and in the past I've pointed out the TWO distinct "firstfruit" of Leviticus 23: 1) in verses 10-12; 2) in v.17... I believe the first one refers to JESUS [SINGULAR, but not alone (per Paul's references to US)] which took place ON Firstfruit/His Resurrection Day [I believe He "[ACTIVELY] ASCEND[-ed]" that very day]; and the second one [Lev23:17] referring to "the 144,000 [plural]" and that they have not yet taken their place in time/history (though I do believe Paul was a "TYPE" of the future 144,000... "as of one born out of due time" [or, BEFORE the rest]). I could supply more scripture references for this (as I have in the past), but I'm outta gas for now...

    Good night.

  14. #194

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark
    I've shown the comparisons between:

    --Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5; with that of...

    --Isaiah 24:21-22[23]


    ...both of these SET [starting] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, and both of them showing CLEAR REFERENCE to a FURTHER TIME PERIOD which follows on from there (the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22 SEPARATED [time-wise] BY "and AFTER MANY DAYS" which "time reference" Amill-teaching [etc] does NOT account for... Which matches precisely with: Rev20's account; with Dan7:27[25]'s account; with Lk19:12,15,17,19's account; with Lk12:36-37,38,40-42's account; with Rev19:15b's account; and so many more too numerous to spell out here, presently).

    It's been nice talking with you... I needa go eat. Good night!

    We will discuss these one at a time, so please paste the scripture you wish to discuss. BTW, I edited the post #191 thinking you were off here, so go back and reread.
    I'm not needing to discuss these.

    If you would like to see WHY I am saying that "time" [on the earth] FOLLOWS the point/s in time spoken of in each of the passages I listed, feel free to take a look at them / examine them thoroughly (which is what I expect someone in discussion together will do, with regard to each others' posts and scriptural references supporting their POINTS), and if you happen to disagree with how that/those support/s MY POINT [that "time" follows on from those, on the earth], then feel free to point out how you disagree. This is something I would be happy to discuss. But I've already supplied the references in support of the point I have already made. I'm not wanting to make it again.

    Good night, bro.

  15. #195

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    But what does the bible say? Not what it refers to.

    The bible does not say there will be 1000 years between resurrections or raptures. This is why you are so strong in your position because of revelation 20: 4-6.

    Which is totally taken out of context and does not say the souls were resurrected
    nor does that theory agree with the teachings of Jesus, Paul (as we just discussed) and Peter. We just got thru discussing Paul and he puts the resurrection of the just and unjust oin one day, "in that day".
    Revelation 2:8 uses the exact same Greek word [G2198 - ezēsen] (as Rev20:4), but are you going to suggest that this verse does not suggest Jesus "resurrected" [i.e. 'lived again']?? https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/2-8.htm


    ...and the word "souls" is used in the following verses, of persons, but are you suggesting that the bodies of these folks were "on holiday" while the "souls" of these persons were all that these contexts held/describe/were concerned with?

    --"Therefore those indeed having received his word were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added." Acts 2:41 [does this mean that "souls were added" to these somewhat-lacking bodies they already possessed, like prepping ingredients to a cake mix??]

    --"And Joseph, having sent, called for his father Jacob and all the kindred, seventy-five souls in all." Acts 7:14 [did Joseph say, "don't bother bringing your bodies along, I only have need of your 'souls'. Your bods can chill out!"]

    --"And we were altogether two hundred seventy-six souls in the ship." Acts 27:37 [had all the bodies decided to jump ship and do some deep-sea diving for awhile, while the 'souls' were sunning on the deck of the ship?]

    --"at one time having disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, of the ark being prepared, in which a few--that is, eight souls--were saved through water" 1 Peter 3:20 [was it that the 'souls' were actually dragged through the water while the bodies resided high and dry on the ark, or was it vice versa, do you think?]


    I believe that the word "thrones" gives us a major clue, as to whether these persons exist only in their "souls" (in this context), or whether this word actually means "persons" [who "lived again" G2198 https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-4.htm (like this same Greek word says of Jesus in Rev2:8)], just as all of the above-mentioned verses prove to refer to whole persons (though not "resurrected" ones, except for Rev2:8/Jesus, as I said).

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