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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #16
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayle View Post
    Doctrine means truth.
    Seven means seven.
    But it seems many want to say that time was suspended after 69 weeks with the 70th week yet future.
    I see the ministry of Jesus as the Messiah being the first part of the 70th week.
    At the crucifixion of the Messiah, time was suspended with 1335 days of the 70th week remaining to be fulfilled.
    This final 1335 days will began with the identification of the anti-Christ that will happen when he stand up alive after the wound unto death.
    But is there not a problem with this understanding? For the Beast to "strengthen" the Covenant with many at the beginning of Daniel's 70th seven, he would have to "stand up alive" then, or before. He would have no power to "strengthen" (lit Heb.) any Covenant with Israel until the ten kings had given him their power (Dan.7:24; Rev.17:12). So he must "stand up alive" even before the beginning of the last "seven" of Daniel 9.

  2. #17
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I use to believe in this until I realized that neither Jesus or any New testament writer confirmed Jesus fulfilling any part of the 70 weeks and this would not be missed especially in the book of Matthew (as he wrote to the Jews) as the New testament is full of Jesus fulfilling prophecies for the Old Testament proving Jesus to be the Messiah.

    The times of the Maccabees in history match the events of the 70 weeks.

    The 70 years became 70 weeks of foreign control. They would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.

    70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

    605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity . (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

    587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

    170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

    538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who comes) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. The end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years. The decree is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision.

    167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

    164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

    War continued during and until the end of the 70th week

    The purposes of the 70 weeks were fulfilled by the Jews who remained loyal to God and resisted apostasy.

    605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

    587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

    170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years
    Sorry correction here as I still can't edit. I meant to reply to this Quote below

    Doctrine means truth.
    Seven means seven.
    But it seems many want to say that time was suspended after 69 weeks with the 70th week yet future.
    I see the ministry of Jesus as the Messiah being the first part of the 70th week.
    At the crucifixion of the Messiah, time was suspended with 1335 days of the 70th week remaining to be fulfilled.
    This final 1335 days will began with the identification of the anti-Christ that will happen when he stand up alive after the wound unto death.

  3. #18
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Added information to my last post

    Some versions of the bible use the word Messiah instead of the anointed one but that was a mistake and not the original meaning.

    It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one come 49 years after he is cut off? It has to be two different people. How could Jesus come 49 years after he dies?

  4. #19

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For your understanding of the bold, which two scriptures do you proffer?
    The Gospels records Jesus offering Himself to Israel as the promised Messiah.
    Daniel 12.

    Daniel 9:27----------
    The pronoun he, used three times, refers back to the Messiah. Prince in verse 25, not to the anti-Christ.
    A pronoun can only be properly used when identified in previous statements.
    The anti-Christ is not mentioned at all Daniel 9. And the prince mentioned in verse 26 is not the anti-Christ or even a type of the antichrist. He is the emperor in Rome whose reign was short.
    Jesus, the Messiah did CONFERM THE COVENANT with many, but most rejected Him.

    The death of Jesus cause the sacrifices to cease. The veil was rent. He fulfilled prophecy. The sacrifices were no longer valid or accepted by God.
    The overspreading of abomination was Israel's rejection, blaspheming, and crucifixion of Jesus that lead to the events of 70AD.



    Time was suspended at the death of Jesus. When the abomination that maketh desolate is set up, there are 1290 days left until the 7th trump return of Christ

  5. #20

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Added information to my last post

    Some versions of the bible use the word Messiah instead of the anointed one but that was a mistake and not the original meaning.

    It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one come 49 years after he is cut off? It has to be two different people. How could Jesus come 49 years after he dies?
    Two different events--time measured from two different events.
    The Messiah comes 69 weeks after the decree to return and the cutting off 62 week after the building of Jerusalem completed.
    This is not uncommon with OT writers.
    One must study Ezra and Nehemiah to understand the time frame.

  6. #21
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I use to believe in this until I realized that neither Jesus or any New testament writer confirmed Jesus fulfilling any part of the 70 weeks and this would not be missed especially in the book of Matthew (as he wrote to the Jews) as the New testament is full of Jesus fulfilling prophecies for the Old Testament proving Jesus to be the Messiah.

    The times of the Maccabees in history match the events of the 70 weeks.

    The 70 years became 70 weeks of foreign control. They would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.

    70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

    605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity . (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

    587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

    170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

    538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who comes) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. The end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years. The decree is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision.

    167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

    164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

    War continued during and until the end of the 70th week

    The purposes of the 70 weeks were fulfilled by the Jews who remained loyal to God and resisted apostasy.

    605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

    587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

    170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years
    There is a problem with this.

    Daniel 9:24 gives the result that these 70 "sevens" will achieve. So any placing of the seventieth "seven" in our past must be measured by this.

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    This prophecy must achieve all with "Daniel's People" and Daniel's holy City - Israel and Jerusalem
    1. Are Israel's transgressions finished? No. There darkest hour when they embrace the "prince of the people who destroyed the Temple and the City is still to come. It has not happened yet.
    2. Are Israel's sins ended? No. The will allow a Gentile king in their Temple and worship his image. They will rejoice at the death of the two Witnesses in Revelation 11
    3. Is there "everlasting righteousness" in Israel today? No. I need not comment.
    4. Is the vision and prophecy "sealed"? The Hebrew for "sealed" means "made an end to" or "made complete". Has a Roman prince "strengthened THE Covenant" with many? No such event has taken place. Your list agrees that no such event has taken place
    5. Has the "Most Holy" been anointed? No. If you take the "most holy" to mean the Holy of Holies of the Temple, the Second Temple was never anointed. If you take the "Most Holy" to mean our Lord Jesus, He too is still waiting to be anointed as King of the Jews

    The proof of prophecy fulfilled is a literal and accurate fulfillment. The 69th "seven" of Daniel clearly ends with the death of Messiah. The 70th "seven" had to wait at least until 70 AD because the identity of the "prince of the people who would come" had to be first established. That was only established when the Temple and City were destroyed in 70 AD. The 70th "seven" could only start AFTER 70 AD, and far from a daily oblation, the Temple did not exist anymore - to this day. The 70th "seven" must be still future to us today.

  7. #22

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus has already offered Himself as the Messiah to the Jews and most of them rejected and killed Him for it.

    There was a time period between the death of Antiochus and the reestablishment of the temple sacrifice.

    The reason the angle Gabriel gave the prophecy of the 70 weeks was for the answering of Daniels prayer in the first section of Daniel chapter 9

    Daniel 9:17-23
    17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
    The Seventy “Sevens”

    20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:


    The reason Daniel was praying was praying was because he knew that Jeremiahs 70 year prophecy was coming to an end and the Jews were still not repenting thus Daniel was praying for mercy.

    Daniel 9:1-14
    In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes[a] (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian[b] kingdom— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

    4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:

    “Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.

    7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

    “Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14 The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.

    God answered Daniel and so the 70 years would become 70 weeks of prophecy.

    Again Daniel chapter 9 is for the Jews back before the first advent not for us gentiles today.

    My explanation here is fully backed by Daniels words in the bible
    You believe it is fulfilled and I believe that 1335 days remain.
    You base your belief on your understanding and I base my belief on my understand.
    We both can not be right,.
    BUT, we both could be wrong.

  8. #23
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayle View Post
    You believe it is fulfilled and I believe that 1335 days remain.
    You base your belief on your understanding and I base my belief on my understand.
    We both can not be right,.
    BUT, we both could be wrong.
    Vert true LOL

    All that being said I have stuck to the words of Daniel and to history

  9. #24
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Matthew and Luke's accounts of the Olivet discourse are prophetic recountings of last days events from two different perspectives. Matthew account is from the perspective of the Jew that is dwelling in the land of Israel in the last days and includes all of the SIGNS that they will see from thete concerning the coming of the Lord (more on this in a moment). Luke's account is from the perspective of those viewing from afar ("... Those dwelling in the countries..."). This is evidenced by Luke excluding the phrase that concerns "seeing the AoD" but including the phrase "... when you Jerusalem compassed with armies..."

    Further down in Luke's text we find these sets of words,
    1. "... when these begin... your redemption is nigh..."
    2. "... when all these things... The KOG is nigh..."

    It doesn't say "and then this (or that) will happen". It says that they will be NEAR. Luke 21 builds off of Luke 17 when the Pharisees came asking WHEN the kingdom of God shall appear. Jesus went on to say that the KOG comes not with observation,.i.e., you won't know when it will take place. And then he went on to say that sudden destruction, like in the days of Lot & Noah, would come in the same day that the son of man is revealed. But we also learn that the kingdom of God WILL come when the 7th trumpet sounds.

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    What does that all mean? It means that ALL of the events of the Olivet discourse will take place BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds. Before and not after. There is no mention of the beast, his mark, or even his 42 months reign, to be found in the O.D.

    Continuing on with Luke's gospel, we find that THESE DAYS are the days of vengeance and wrath upon upon this people who are dwelling in the land of Israel. And with his attention focused on them (Israel), Jesus said,

    *[[Luk 21:27]] KJV* And then shall THEY see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    That is an important point. Luke reduces the focus from "those dwelling in the countries", TO them. "Them", as in the children of Israel who are the recipients of this wrath. The coming of the kingdom will be preceded by the children of Israel seeing the SON of man coming with power and great glory. Shifting back to Matthews gospel, here is what we find compared to Luke:

    Verse list:
    Mat 24:32-34 KJV Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:29-31 KJV And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    Luke, together with the words of Matthew, says that ALL of these things shall take place BEFORE the kingdom of God shall come. AND Matthew INCLUDES:
    1. The sign of the son of man in heaven, AND
    2. The gathering of the elect by the angels, AND
    3. This sign in the heavens and gathering of the elect as part of the signs that are given to the Jews.

    These SIGNS are all part of signs that will precede the coming of the kingdom WHEN the 7th trumpet shall sound. ALL of this before the onset of the kingdom of the beast. The rapture is the day of our redemption, that will take place when these things begin to come to pass, AND is (one of the last) signs that the Jews will see just before the arrival of the kingdom.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  10. #25
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There is a problem with this.

    Daniel 9:24 gives the result that these 70 "sevens" will achieve. So any placing of the seventieth "seven" in our past must be measured by this.

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    This prophecy must achieve all with "Daniel's People" and Daniel's holy City - Israel and Jerusalem
    1. Are Israel's transgressions finished? No. There darkest hour when they embrace the "prince of the people who destroyed the Temple and the City is still to come. It has not happened yet.
    2. Are Israel's sins ended? No. The will allow a Gentile king in their Temple and worship his image. They will rejoice at the death of the two Witnesses in Revelation 11
    3. Is there "everlasting righteousness" in Israel today? No. I need not comment.
    4. Is the vision and prophecy "sealed"? The Hebrew for "sealed" means "made an end to" or "made complete". Has a Roman prince "strengthened THE Covenant" with many? No such event has taken place. Your list agrees that no such event has taken place
    5. Has the "Most Holy" been anointed? No. If you take the "most holy" to mean the Holy of Holies of the Temple, the Second Temple was never anointed. If you take the "Most Holy" to mean our Lord Jesus, He too is still waiting to be anointed as King of the Jews

    The proof of prophecy fulfilled is a literal and accurate fulfillment. The 69th "seven" of Daniel clearly ends with the death of Messiah. The 70th "seven" had to wait at least until 70 AD because the identity of the "prince of the people who would come" had to be first established. That was only established when the Temple and City were destroyed in 70 AD. The 70th "seven" could only start AFTER 70 AD, and far from a daily oblation, the Temple did not exist anymore - to this day. The 70th "seven" must be still future to us today.
    This could be a difference of opinion of events. I believe that most of them happened in the past and that their will be no future antichrist sitting in a future temple or even a future temple. I also believe that the two witnesses were the prophets and the law which all pointed to Jesus

    The Jews reestablishing the temple sacrifices did put an end to sin as they put their faith in a future Messiah as it pointed to Jesus who put away sin once and for all as the verse says below

    Hebrews 9:26
    Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


    Even though Jesus did away with sin it still happens and will happen until the end of our world but it is defeated

  11. #26
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayle View Post
    The Messiah comes 69 weeks after the decree to return and the cutting off 62 week after the building of Jerusalem completed.
    Hi Dayle

    I agree Messiah comes after 69 weeks from the issuing of the decree. He is then Anointed with the Holy Spirit to Atone for sin in the 70th week.


    Welcome.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  12. #27
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayle View Post
    The Gospels records Jesus offering Himself to Israel as the promised Messiah.
    Daniel 12.

    Daniel 9:27----------
    The pronoun he, used three times, refers back to the Messiah. Prince in verse 25, not to the anti-Christ.
    A pronoun can only be properly used when identified in previous statements.
    The anti-Christ is not mentioned at all Daniel 9. And the prince mentioned in verse 26 is not the anti-Christ or even a type of the antichrist. He is the emperor in Rome whose reign was short.
    Jesus, the Messiah did CONFERM THE COVENANT with many, but most rejected Him.

    The death of Jesus cause the sacrifices to cease. The veil was rent. He fulfilled prophecy. The sacrifices were no longer valid or accepted by God.
    The overspreading of abomination was Israel's rejection, blaspheming, and crucifixion of Jesus that lead to the events of 70AD.



    Time was suspended at the death of Jesus. When the abomination that maketh desolate is set up, there are 1290 days left until the 7th trump return of Christ
    OK. We have a huge difference in appreciation of grammar. I will let this be because a discussion on grammar will derail the thread. So I will move on to your next point concerning the Covenant and then to the sacrifices.

    1. Why would our Lord Jesus "strengthen" (literal Hebrew) a Covenant He was about do do away with?
    2. The death of Jesus did not cause the sacrifices to cease. He Himself will sacrifice the Passover when the Kingdom is instituted (Lk.22:7-16)
    3. The death of Jesus ONLY fulfills the sacrifices IF you believe in Him. If you have a Contract/Covenant that requires sacrifices you are bound to keep it.
    4. In Jeremiah 31:31-33 Israel will receive a New Covenant "of God's Law". Does this Law not require and regulate the sacrifices, especially the said Covenant of the Passover?
    5. Did not our Lord Jesus say the Law would not pass "TILL" heaven and earth pass. According to Revelation 20 our Lord will reign 1,000 years before the heaven and earth "flee" from His countenance. That means that the Law will, in NOT one jot or tittle, change for a thousand years after Jesus returns.

    The end of Ezekiel Chapter 39 clearly predicts the recovery of the nation of Israel. AFTER this, Chapter 40 starts with the regulation of a New and Different Temple, and the chapters unfold with sacrifices. Now Ezekiel 44:15 reads, "But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:" In this scripture we have, "... the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, ... " The son's Zadok who kept the sanctuary when Israel went astray are long dead. They probably died in Babylon because a priest could only serve from the age of 30, and the captivity in Babylon was 70 years - making the youngest of those who served "when Israel went astray" a ripe 100 years old before he could return. This leaves only one solution. If these priest will again serve, they have to have resurrected. And the Resurrection of Israel is AFTER the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2).

    I propose that Israel will sacrifice as per the Law AFTER the great Tribulation when they are resurrected and gathered to their Land as Ezekiel 39 predicts, that our Lord will be sacrificing the Passover at this time, and that these sacrifices will continue till the White Throne Judgement. But I would be remiss if I did not tell you why.

    Hebrews 10:4 tells us, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." So FOR THE TAKING AWAY OF ANY PERSON'S SINS THE DEATH OF CHRIST IS NECESSARY. And so John 1:29 and 1st John 2:2 tells us that our Lord Jesus died for "the SIN of the world" and the "SINS of the world". But what the animal sacrifices COULD DO is told in Hebrews 9:13; "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:" Now, in that thousand years that Christ reigns, Zechariah 14:16 tells us ; "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." That is, the NATIONS - the UNBELIEVERS who survived the Great Tribulation - are required by the father to go up to Jerusalem once a year and praise, worship and adore Jesus. Now, these UNBELIEVERS will still have their "flesh". So to cleanse their FLESH, not forgive their sins, the animal sacrifices are needed.

    We who BELIEVED are cleansed, and not only cleansed but we will all be in resurrection in our new and glorious bodies. But the NATIONS not. So there is a very important reason why the Law will NOT pass in even one little "jot". And the Passover and the sacrifices of Israel are anchored in this Law.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This could be a difference of opinion of events. I believe that most of them happened in the past and that their will be no future antichrist sitting in a future temple or even a future temple. I also believe that the two witnesses were the prophets and the law which all pointed to Jesus

    The Jews reestablishing the temple sacrifices did put an end to sin as they put their faith in a future Messiah as it pointed to Jesus who put away sin once and for all as the verse says below

    Hebrews 9:26
    Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


    Even though Jesus did away with sin it still happens and will happen until the end of our world but it is defeated
    Yes, We've had this discussion before. I am happy to leave it as it is because another 12 rounds with each other will not solve the difference. But one day maybe you can answer those questions of mine. In the mean time - go well brother.

  14. #29
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Matthew and Luke's accounts of the Olivet discourse are prophetic recountings of last days events from two different perspectives. Matthew account is from the perspective of the Jew that is dwelling in the land of Israel in the last days and includes all of the SIGNS that they will see from thete concerning the coming of the Lord (more on this in a moment). Luke's account is from the perspective of those viewing from afar ("... Those dwelling in the countries..."). This is evidenced by Luke excluding the phrase that concerns "seeing the AoD" but including the phrase "... when you Jerusalem compassed with armies..."

    Further down in Luke's text we find these sets of words,
    1. "... when these begin... your redemption is nigh..."
    2. "... when all these things... The KOG is nigh..."

    It doesn't say "and then this (or that) will happen". It says that they will be NEAR. Luke 21 builds off of Luke 17 when the Pharisees came asking WHEN the kingdom of God shall appear. Jesus went on to say that the KOG comes not with observation,.i.e., you won't know when it will take place. And then he went on to say that sudden destruction, like in the days of Lot & Noah, would come in the same day that the son of man is revealed. But we also learn that the kingdom of God WILL come when the 7th trumpet sounds.

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    What does that all mean? It means that ALL of the events of the Olivet discourse will take place BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds. Before and not after. There is no mention of the beast, his mark, or even his 42 months reign, to be found in the O.D.

    Continuing on with Luke's gospel, we find that THESE DAYS are the days of vengeance and wrath upon upon this people who are dwelling in the land of Israel. And with his attention focused on them (Israel), Jesus said,

    *[[Luk 21:27]] KJV* And then shall THEY see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    That is an important point. Luke reduces the focus from "those dwelling in the countries", TO them. "Them", as in the children of Israel who are the recipients of this wrath. The coming of the kingdom will be preceded by the children of Israel seeing the SON of man coming with power and great glory. Shifting back to Matthews gospel, here is what we find compared to Luke:

    Verse list:
    Mat 24:32-34 KJV Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:29-31 KJV And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    Luke, together with the words of Matthew, says that ALL of these things shall take place BEFORE the kingdom of God shall come. AND Matthew INCLUDES:
    1. The sign of the son of man in heaven, AND
    2. The gathering of the elect by the angels, AND
    3. This sign in the heavens and gathering of the elect as part of the signs that are given to the Jews.

    These SIGNS are all part of signs that will precede the coming of the kingdom WHEN the 7th trumpet shall sound. ALL of this before the onset of the kingdom of the beast. The rapture is the day of our redemption, that will take place when these things begin to come to pass, AND is (one of the last) signs that the Jews will see just before the arrival of the kingdom.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Hi PuP. Could show where and when the 7th Trumpet sounds?

  15. #30
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi PuP. Could show where and when the 7th Trumpet sounds?
    Let me begin by using Mark's gospel to point out that the gathering of the elect takes place after Jesus comes in power & glory.

    Verse list:
    Mar 13:26-27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Matthew tells us that it is with the great trumpet:

    *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Isaiah tells of two specific events that takes place "on that day":

    Isa 27:12-13 KJV And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    That day of the great trumpet is when the 7th, aka the last trumpet is blown and the time comes that the saints and prophets receive their eternal in heritance of the kingdom of God:

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    *[[1Co 15:50]] KJV* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption...[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST Trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Isa 11:10-16 KJV And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ENSIGN of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ENSIGN for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

    Isa 11:16 connects again back to Isa 27:12 with the remnant returning on a highway made from a drying up of a tongue of the Egyptian sea. And from there we see that a sign will be set up on that day as a sign/ signet for the remnant to return. Isa 11 and Isa 66 both speak of a sign given to return to the land of Israel.

    Isa 66:19-20 KJV And I will set a SIGN among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

    What is that sign? [If you are still with me], it is the root of Jesse. But it is not the Branch. The Branch comes forth from out of the roots OF THE STEM OF JESSE.

    Isa 11:1 KJV And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

    Most, do not see two characters in Isa 11:1. Zerubbabel, is one of the saints that will arise at the great trumpet, that IS the root of Jesse,

    *[[Mat 1:6]] KJV* And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;...(skip to v.12)...
    *[[Mat 1:12]] KJV* And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

    And with that, comes this:

    Verse list:
    Zec 4:6-10 KJV Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

    Hag 2:20-23 KJV And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

    I know that I gave you a lot to digest, but hopefully it's enough to answer your question.

    Blessings, my friend,
    The PuP

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