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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #46
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The hope and purpose of Gabriels ministry only shows up again in scripture when he shows up at the advent of Jesus.


    He first appears in scripture by name to deliver good news of 70 weeks to Daniel in prayer, and the next time he shows up by name in scripture is to oversee the advent of the promised Messiah Jesus , who would put an end to sin , iniquity and transgression , and bring in everlasting righteousness for those who believe etc etc.
    Don’t forget in Daniel 8 too LOL

  2. #47
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Sorry I thought that I did answer so lets try again

    Your question
    This prophecy must achieve all with "Daniel's People" and Daniel's holy City - Israel and Jerusalem
    Are Israel's transgressions finished? No. There darkest hour when they embrace the "prince of the people who destroyed the Temple and the City is still to come. It has not happened yet.

    My answer
    First who exactly are Daniels people is it all of the Jews or just true Israel the faithful?

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    Isaiah confirms this

    Isaiah 59:20
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.

    You see the Redeemer (Jesus) will come to Zion (National Israel) to those in Jacob (true Israel the faithful) who repent of their sins. Isaiah used Zion and Jacob for a reason and that is because they are different. We need to stop putting national Israel on a pedestal as it is only true Israel the faithful that are truly Gods people.

    So even though I disagree with you that they will embrace a future antichrist who desecrates a future temple that is besides the point as true Israel has stopped transgressing and that happened as a remnant of Jews resisted apostasy and stood up against Antiochus Epiphanies during the time of the Maccabees.

    I will get back to this in a bit gotta go
    But if this is your understanding then how do you reconcile Romans 11:26-32. There, no distinction is made. In verse 26 it is; "And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" The need is for ALL to be saved, and this doubly shown by using the MAN Jacob to show who He is talking about. Here it is ALL the seed of Jacob. And then this concurs with verse 32, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Even if your understanding of Romans 9:6 is correct, ALL Israel needs to be saved and ALL Israel are concluded by God IN UNBELIEF. That is, your term "true Israel the faithful" is utterly wrong. And so scripture NEVER EVER uses the term "FAITHFUL ISRAEL".

    But in the end, even this discussion does not change who Daniel's People are. Great or small, faithful or unfaithful, saved or unsaved, the GOALS of Daniel 9:24 have not been achieved to this day. Far from your timetable in postings #5 and #15, Daniel's prophecy MUST concern events FUTURE to us. That is the nature of prophecy in the Bible. You cannot fail to see its fulfillment. It is so obviously and accurately fulfilled. The 70th "Seven" has not yet started, or finished, because what the 70 sevens were supposed to achieve, have not yet been achieved.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I am not real sure of what you are asking other than how what I have presented conflicts with a pretrib viewpoint. So let me proceed in that direction. I have a two pronged approach. What is known and what is assumed.
    A. What we know.
    1. Paul knew that there would be trumpets (as part of God's plan of redemption?) before the last one. A last one implies a previous first one. We can probably surmise this from the 4 horns/ trumpets of Zechariah 1.
    2. Paul traveled with Luke and would be very familiar with what he wrote. The kingdom of God being nigh AFTER all these things (Luke 21:31) is probably how Paul came to understand that the KOG was to be inherited in the future.
    3. The Jews would remain in blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    4. When the wrath of God comes upon Israel, it would bring (great) tribulation upon the rest of the world and that this tribulation would manifest the righteous judgment of God upon the Gentiles who were truly seeking for eternal life.
    Romans 1:16-2:10[To the Jew first...].
    5. God would immediately avenge the Gentile church after the rapture, 2 Thess 1:7-10.
    6. There are numerous scriptural arguments (including my #5) used for and against pretrib that could be stated.
    B. Assumptions
    1. The rapture occurs at the last trumpet and therefore the 7 trumpets happen after the "last" trumpet.
    2. There is a trumpet blown at the time of Armageddon.
    3. Church does not go thru the GT.
    4. Israel is not gathered until the time of Rev 19.

    I have already shown that the signs presented in Luke 21 and Matt 24 are signs that precede the coming of the kingdom and that coming in power and glory was one of those signs. Daniel 2 & 7 shows that God will set up the kingdom in the days of these kings and endure the kingdom of the beast for 42 months afterward. The time of setting up the eternal kingdom comes in the days when the whole world is broken in pieces. The assumptions that I put forth are just that... Assumptions without scriptural proof. I have presented many scriptures that shows that the gathering of Israel begins before the time, times and dividing of time of the kingdom of the beast. If you don't feel convinced of that, I will only ask that you re-read my posts and the many scriptures provided. If you need some clarification on something I presented, I will try to help you.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    OK. Thanks for your answer. I will go through your posts again, how can the "LAST" trumpet not be the last trumpet. Did scripture get it wrong?

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I'm back now

    Your question
    Are Israel's sins ended? No. The will allow a Gentile king in their Temple and worship his image. They will rejoice at the death of the two Witnesses in Revelation 11

    My answer
    I kind of answered this one before true Israels sins have ended as Jesus put an end to sin. That doesn't mean that they or us will never sin again just that our sins are not counted against us.

    Romans 8:1-4
    8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Again I don't believe that a gentile king will enter a future temple and I see the two witnesses different than you do.

    Your question
    Is there "everlasting righteousness" in Israel today? No. I need not comment.

    My answer
    this verse below is for true Israel

    Romans 8:4
    4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Your question
    Is the vision and prophecy "sealed"? The Hebrew for "sealed" means "made an end to" or "made complete". Has a Roman prince "strengthened THE Covenant" with many? No such event has taken place. Your list agrees that no such event has taken place

    My answer
    I see the prince to come as Antiochus Epiphanies

    Your question
    Has the "Most Holy" been anointed? No. If you take the "most holy" to mean the Holy of Holies of the Temple, the Second Temple was never anointed. If you take the "Most Holy" to mean our Lord Jesus, He too is still waiting to be anointed as King of the Jews

    My answer
    I see the temple mentioned as the first temple not the second temple which had the miraculous anointing oil that lasted eight days

    Your quote
    The proof of prophecy fulfilled is a literal and accurate fulfillment. The 69th "seven" of Daniel clearly ends with the death of Messiah. The 70th "seven" had to wait at least until 70 AD because the identity of the "prince of the people who would come" had to be first established. That was only established when the Temple and City were destroyed in 70 AD. The 70th "seven" could only start AFTER 70 AD, and far from a daily oblation, the Temple did not exist anymore - to this day. The 70th "seven" must be still future to us today.

    My answer
    In my opinion Antoichus Epiphanies desecrated the temple half way through the 70th week so his identity was established
    OK. Thanks for your answers. So we conclude then that though ALL Israel are in need of salvation, ALL Israel are presently cut out of te Olive Tree, and ALL Israel are concluded BY GOD in UNBELIEF, you still say that there is an TRUE and FAITHFUL Israel? And although Daniel 9:26-27 clearly says that the "prince that will come" is a prince of the people who destroy the Temple and City, WHO WERE ROMANS, is Antiochus IV Epiphanes - AN HELLENISTIC GREEK?

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But if this is your understanding then how do you reconcile Romans 11:26-32. There, no distinction is made. In verse 26 it is; "And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" The need is for ALL to be saved, and this doubly shown by using the MAN Jacob to show who He is talking about. Here it is ALL the seed of Jacob. And then this concurs with verse 32, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Even if your understanding of Romans 9:6 is correct, ALL Israel needs to be saved and ALL Israel are concluded by God IN UNBELIEF. That is, your term "true Israel the faithful" is utterly wrong. And so scripture NEVER EVER uses the term "FAITHFUL ISRAEL".

    But in the end, even this discussion does not change who Daniel's People are. Great or small, faithful or unfaithful, saved or unsaved, the GOALS of Daniel 9:24 have not been achieved to this day. Far from your timetable in postings #5 and #15, Daniel's prophecy MUST concern events FUTURE to us. That is the nature of prophecy in the Bible. You cannot fail to see its fulfillment. It is so obviously and accurately fulfilled. The 70th "Seven" has not yet started, or finished, because what the 70 sevens were supposed to achieve, have not yet been achieved.
    True Israel are the ones who will be saved over time. If you notice Paul leaves himself out of Israel as he calls them "THEY" even though he was a Jew.

    I think the truth of this are the facts many Jews over time have parrished but many have been saved. If it was Gods plan to save every living Jew living at one time in the future how is that fair to the Jewish generations in the past?

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for your answers. So we conclude then that though ALL Israel are in need of salvation, ALL Israel are presently cut out of te Olive Tree, and ALL Israel are concluded BY GOD in UNBELIEF, you still say that there is an TRUE and FAITHFUL Israel? And although Daniel 9:26-27 clearly says that the "prince that will come" is a prince of the people who destroy the Temple and City, WHO WERE ROMANS, is Antiochus IV Epiphanes - AN HELLENISTIC GREEK?
    Yes I do their has to be a different meaning because when Paul said that they were cut out of the olive tree Paul a Jew was not cut out of the olive tree. Some of true Israel were the ones that would be saved but were not at the time of Paul's writing.

    It doesn't have to be Romans as Antiochus also seiged Jerusalem and desecrated the temple after the time of Daniel chapter 9.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But if this is your understanding then how do you reconcile Romans 11:26-32. There, no distinction is made. In verse 26 it is; "And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" The need is for ALL to be saved, and this doubly shown by using the MAN Jacob to show who He is talking about. Here it is ALL the seed of Jacob. And then this concurs with verse 32, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Even if your understanding of Romans 9:6 is correct, ALL Israel needs to be saved and ALL Israel are concluded by God IN UNBELIEF. That is, your term "true Israel the faithful" is utterly wrong. And so scripture NEVER EVER uses the term "FAITHFUL ISRAEL".

    But in the end, even this discussion does not change who Daniel's People are. Great or small, faithful or unfaithful, saved or unsaved, the GOALS of Daniel 9:24 have not been achieved to this day. Far from your timetable in postings #5 and #15, Daniel's prophecy MUST concern events FUTURE to us. That is the nature of prophecy in the Bible. You cannot fail to see its fulfillment. It is so obviously and accurately fulfilled. The 70th "Seven" has not yet started, or finished, because what the 70 sevens were supposed to achieve, have not yet been achieved.
    Brother, I would say that we should be cautious about how we interpret Rom 11:26-32. When Paul declared that (a) all Israel shall be saved (b) God has concluded them all in unbelief (c) that he might have mercy upon all - there is certainly an unstated caveat to these promises. I believe it will be a gross misrepresentation to take them on face value. For example, even at the time Paul wrote the letter (1st century), a significant number of Israel were believing Christians. Now, juxtapose with the statement "ALL Israel is in unbelief", and we see how impossible it is to run with the interpretation you seem to support.

    Verse 26 also said that ALL Israel shall be saved - but did Paul actually mean that every Tom, Dick and Harry of Israel stock will be saved whether they believe or not? Again, I don't know anyone who believes this to be even remotely true? The scriptures are emphatic that Jesus is the only to be saved. IOW, the Jew who continues to deny Christ (even in the end-times when God focuses his attention on them) will not be saved. Their intransigents will most likely be those to be slaughtered by the Beast.

    Interestingly God said he will have mercy on all. It's important we understand the context here. As we have seen throughout scripture, God showering his grace and supplication on humanity is one thing and all accepting his benevolence is another.

    Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Above we see God's mercy poured on the house of David (Israel + Judah) in fulfilment of this prophecy. Yet, Paul quoted Isaiah when he said:

    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Now, I've heard some falsely claim that the text refers to the survivors of the OT exiles. But this cannot possibly be true as it makes no sense in the context of Paul's argument about the fate of Israel in the NT dispensation. Many of Israel will die still rejecting Christ and end up in hellfire, (even in the end-times). And this proves the point that "all shall be saved" is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card that the Jew who throws God's mercy back on his face will still be saved.

    Finally, I agree that Dan 9:24, has not fully been fulfilled. Whoever claims the contrary is wrong.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    I challenge anyone who claims the passage is fulfilled to show me evidence of *everlasting righteousness* anywhere: whether among the Jew or the Gentile?

  8. #53
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But if this is your understanding then how do you reconcile Romans 11:26-32. There, no distinction is made. In verse 26 it is; "And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" The need is for ALL to be saved, and this doubly shown by using the MAN Jacob to show who He is talking about. Here it is ALL the seed of Jacob. And then this concurs with verse 32, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Even if your understanding of Romans 9:6 is correct, ALL Israel needs to be saved and ALL Israel are concluded by God IN UNBELIEF. That is, your term "true Israel the faithful" is utterly wrong. And so scripture NEVER EVER uses the term "FAITHFUL ISRAEL".
    'All Israel', in the context of Romans 11:26; cannot be determined by that one verse alone.
    One must study and evaluate all Paul is saying about who Israel is, spanning Roman chapters 9-12.

    When one does this, they find that the 'all Israel' of Romans 11:26, is the completed group of the faithful natural branches and the faithful wild branches both graffed in together(Rom 11:17); at the time the Deliverer returns.(Rom 11:26)

    You can't take just 11:26 out of context, to derive 'who' the 'All of Israel' is.

    Just one verse prior, it tells us that the 'partial' blindness ends(of natural Israel) when the fullness comes (of the wild branches Gentiles); showing their togetherness at His return. 'All Israel' is interwoven with both natural and wild branches, with one common denomintator (Romans 11:20) -- 'faith' and 'belief'--.

    Taking the context further out from 11:26-32; we see that is the subject of Paul's writings throughout his letter to the Romans.

    Just a couple verses later Paul says in , Romans 12:4" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. "

    Again addressing the faithful of God (natural or wild) as one.

    Just a few verses before this in the end of chapter 10 Paul says, of both the natural and wild branches together:

    Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. "

    At the end of chaper 9 and beginning of chapter 10; Paul also grouped people into believing and unbelieving; and within the believing group; shows the natural and unnatural branches together.

    Romans 9:30 " What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. "


    In Romans 9:24 Paul saids those who are the called of God are both:

    Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? "

    Starting chapter 9, Paul emphatically tells us the unbelieving natural branches, are not Israel; it is only the believing branches who are Israel, and are the children of God.

    Romans 9:3"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

    So when you don't telescope your theology of Israel solely on the Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" verse, but you allow the full context of Paul's writings in Romans 9-12 to fully teach and instruct, you can only then see 'who' the 'all Israel' correctly is; and know without doubt, and without conflict with Paul's surrounding teachings, that 'all Israel' are those who believe and are faithful to God, both of the natural and wild branches together.

    Daniel's people were always the people of faith, who trusted in the Lord.
    The true people of God saw the end of sin made at Calvary, when Jesus said, 'it is finished', and saw there, hanging on the cross, reconciliation for iniquity made in full.
    The transgression of the curse was ended for God's people that day, and everlasting righteousness was presented, and the divisions were ended, when the veil of the temple was ripped in twain.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Don’t forget in Daniel 8 too LOL
    Thanks Marty. Don't know how I missed that in my notes.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    So when you don't telescope your theology of Israel solely on the Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" verse, but you allow the full context of Paul's writings in Romans 9-12 to fully teach and instruct, you can only then see 'who' the 'all Israel' correctly is; and know without doubt, and without conflict with Paul's surrounding teachings, that 'all Israel' are those who believe and are faithful to God, both of the natural and wild branches together.

    Daniel's people were always the people of faith, who trusted in the Lord.
    The true people of God saw the end of sin made at Calvary, when Jesus said, 'it is finished', and saw there, hanging on the cross, reconciliation for iniquity made in full.
    The transgression of the curse was ended for God's people that day, and everlasting righteousness was presented, and the divisions were ended, when the veil of the temple was ripped in twain.
    The theme of Rom 11 was Paul's contrast between the fates of Israel who he pointed out as presently "broken off" from the Olive tree {Jesus v-17} and the Gentiles who are now grafted in. Following this contrast, Paul's exegesis from start to finish was that of regret and hope for his people [Israel] and excitement and exhortation for the Gentile. As the narrative winds down, Paul admonishes the Gentile against the folly of self-conceit in the face of Israel's failings.

    Verse 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Understanding the above unlocks the key to understanding the rest of Paul's position in the subsequent verses to the very end of the chapter. The fullness of the Gentile coming in refers to God's major shift in attention to Israel in the end-times. So from v-25, Paul focuses exclusively on Israel, not the church (Jew/Gentile). For e.g. he quotes the OT prophets in v-26 that the Deliverer will come out of Zion to take away ungodliness from Jacob. The Gentile church has no stake in Jacob!

    If this is not enough to convince you, v-31 nails it (Even so have these [Israel] also now not believed, that through your [Gentile] mercy they/Israel also may obtain mercy). My point is that in the context of "Israel shall be saved" in Rom 11- the Israel referenced is the ethnic Jew, not the Gentile church.

    Again, Daniel's people do not include the Gentile church, but ethnic Israel. In Daniel 7:21 and a few other places, the "saints" is used to denote ALL the faithful (Jew+Gentile). But when the term, "Daniel's people" is used, it is exclusive to Israel and should not be confused with the church. We, the church, are Christ' people, not Daniel's.

    And yes, 'everlasting righteousness' was promised in Christ, but its physical manifestation will occur when Christ returns to live with the saints who have been made "perfect" via the rapture and resurrection.
    Remember that the phrase is everlasting righteouness; not temporal or intermittent righteous which as flawed mortals is the best we can abide in our present state.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for your answers. So we conclude then that though ALL Israel are in need of salvation, ALL Israel are presently cut out of te Olive Tree, and ALL Israel are concluded BY GOD in UNBELIEF, you still say that there is an TRUE and FAITHFUL Israel? And although Daniel 9:26-27 clearly says that the "prince that will come" is a prince of the people who destroy the Temple and City, WHO WERE ROMANS, is Antiochus IV Epiphanes - AN HELLENISTIC GREEK?
    Yes, I'm sure you know that A4E was a Hellenistic Greek.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    True Israel are the ones who will be saved over time. If you notice Paul leaves himself out of Israel as he calls them "THEY" even though he was a Jew.

    I think the truth of this are the facts many Jews over time have parrished but many have been saved. If it was Gods plan to save every living Jew living at one time in the future how is that fair to the Jewish generations in the past?
    Again, I must say that the term "True Israel" does not occur in scripture. The word scripture uses is "ALL". I'm sure you agree ALL means ALL.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes I do their has to be a different meaning because when Paul said that they were cut out of the olive tree Paul a Jew was not cut out of the olive tree. Some of true Israel were the ones that would be saved but were not at the time of Paul's writing.

    It doesn't have to be Romans as Antiochus also seiged Jerusalem and desecrated the temple after the time of Daniel chapter 9.
    Daniel's prophecy is either inspired, or lies. The "prince that will come" is a "prince of the people that destroy the City and the Temple - a Roman. And the evidence of Revelation 13 and 17 is overwhelming. He is a Roman. Added to this, at our Lord's trial the Jews confirmed that their king was a Caesar. You have no choice. The Beast is a Roman or Daniel is the figment of man's thoughts.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    'All Israel', in the context of Romans 11:26; cannot be determined by that one verse alone.
    One must study and evaluate all Paul is saying about who Israel is, spanning Roman chapters 9-12.

    When one does this, they find that the 'all Israel' of Romans 11:26, is the completed group of the faithful natural branches and the faithful wild branches both graffed in together(Rom 11:17); at the time the Deliverer returns.(Rom 11:26)

    You can't take just 11:26 out of context, to derive 'who' the 'All of Israel' is.

    Just one verse prior, it tells us that the 'partial' blindness ends(of natural Israel) when the fullness comes (of the wild branches Gentiles); showing their togetherness at His return. 'All Israel' is interwoven with both natural and wild branches, with one common denomintator (Romans 11:20) -- 'faith' and 'belief'--.

    Taking the context further out from 11:26-32; we see that is the subject of Paul's writings throughout his letter to the Romans.

    Just a couple verses later Paul says in , Romans 12:4" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. "

    Again addressing the faithful of God (natural or wild) as one.

    Just a few verses before this in the end of chapter 10 Paul says, of both the natural and wild branches together:

    Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. "

    At the end of chaper 9 and beginning of chapter 10; Paul also grouped people into believing and unbelieving; and within the believing group; shows the natural and unnatural branches together.

    Romans 9:30 " What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. "


    In Romans 9:24 Paul saids those who are the called of God are both:

    Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? "

    Starting chapter 9, Paul emphatically tells us the unbelieving natural branches, are not Israel; it is only the believing branches who are Israel, and are the children of God.

    Romans 9:3"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

    So when you don't telescope your theology of Israel solely on the Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" verse, but you allow the full context of Paul's writings in Romans 9-12 to fully teach and instruct, you can only then see 'who' the 'all Israel' correctly is; and know without doubt, and without conflict with Paul's surrounding teachings, that 'all Israel' are those who believe and are faithful to God, both of the natural and wild branches together.

    Daniel's people were always the people of faith, who trusted in the Lord.
    The true people of God saw the end of sin made at Calvary, when Jesus said, 'it is finished', and saw there, hanging on the cross, reconciliation for iniquity made in full.
    The transgression of the curse was ended for God's people that day, and everlasting righteousness was presented, and the divisions were ended, when the veil of the temple was ripped in twain.
    You have gone to great lengths to make the word "ALL" not mean "ALL". And it will come back to bite you presently. I present it this way.

    The phrase "all Israel" is used about 150 times in the Bible. How many of them do you surmise do NOT mean "ALL Israel"? When scripture does not mean ALL it uses other words like in Numbers 16:34, "And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also." Otherwise "ALL Israel" is "ALL Israel. Ezekiel 37 shows Israel resurrected, gathered to Canaan and made one nation again. But does it say "ALL Israel"? NO! Why? Because the condition of inheriting Canaan is that one is CIRCUMCISED. And so not ALL of Israel will be included in Ezekiel 37. How do we know? Because concerning the resurrection of "Daniel's People" in Daniel 12:2, after he Great Tribulation, we read that NOT ALL of Israel will be resurrected. It reads then, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

    Likewise, in Daniel 9:27 we read that, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ... ." Why does it not say "ALL"? Because there are TWO WITNESSES and a group of 144,000 of all the Tribes WHO OPPOSE this liaison with a Gentile king!

    Added to this, not one of your proffered verses deals with this matter of "ALL Israel". You have made the Olive Tree Israel! On what basis??? Israel is a Vine and later a Fig tree. Since when is Israel an Olive Tree? And if we interpret scripture with scripture, and not suck things out of our own intellect, then a Tree in Parable is a KINGDOM (see Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The Olive Tree is Christ's Kingdom - not Israel. Israel are said to be ONLY THE BRANCHES that were cut out. On top of this, even if it WAS the Church "there is no Jew in it" (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11)! A man or woman who believes is transported out of the "TWAIN" - (i) the Nations, or (ii) the Nation of Israel, and made a NEW MAN with no past (2nd Cor.5:17). So ALL Israelites who are without faith are ALL Israel. The minute and Israelite believes His ethnicity is moot. He becomes a New Man.

    I propose that "ALL Israel" means "ALL Israel" and the immediate CONTEXT, and the whole CONTEXT of the New Man, SUPPORTS THIS. I propose that the phrase, and/or concept of "TRUE Israel" appears NOWHERE and is a the figment of men's imagination. There is ONLY ISRAEL - period! Israel is defined as being from the loins of Jacob, unless the context alludes to the ten northern Tribes who were carried off to Assyria.

  15. #60
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    ....

    Daniel's people were always the people of faith, who trusted in the Lord.
    The true people of God saw the end of sin made at Calvary, when Jesus said, 'it is finished', and saw there, hanging on the cross, reconciliation for iniquity made in full.
    The transgression of the curse was ended for God's people that day, and everlasting righteousness was presented, and the divisions were ended, when the veil of the temple was ripped in twain.
    I am utterly astounded that a well versed student of the Bible could say this.
    1. From Horeb and the Golden Calf, Israel proved over and over again that they were a stiff-necked, rebellious and unfaithful people. At the end of Acts, with Paul just years short of his death, he washes his hands of them concerning faith.
    2. As far as percentages go, let us examine the highlight of Pentecost. Jerusalem, at this feast, is calculated by historians, to have swelled to about 2 million people. Let us be utterly conservative and say ONE million. 3,000 men and women believed on that Pentecost. Great? NO! 3,000 of one million is a third of ONE PERCENT (0.3%) - a pitiful number especially since our Lord Jesus was the talk of the nation (Lk.24:18).
    3. As far as Jews go, throughout the diaspora they have vehemently and hatefully rejected their Messiah.
    4. Far from faithful Moses predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1, "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,".

    Where then is this "faithful people"? Still scattered! Oh my. The curse is is full swing for a broken Law.

    And how can anyone say that "reconciliation for iniquity" has been made. The PRICE for reconciliation has been paid, are Israel reconciled to God? Why, the stand under His chastising hand to this day. But 80 years ago, in Germany, some 1,900 years after Golgotha, we see Leviticus 26:33-38 taking place before our eyes!!!

    33 "And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
    34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
    35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
    36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
    37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies."

    38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

    Where then is the reconciliation?

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