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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #61
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Again, I must say that the term "True Israel" does not occur in scripture. The word scripture uses is "ALL". I'm sure you agree ALL means ALL.
    Yes but all of what? All of the Jewish nation or all of faithful Israel?

    The word trinity doesn't appear in scripture either but I'm sure we both believe it to be a fact

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Daniel's prophecy is either inspired, or lies. The "prince that will come" is a "prince of the people that destroy the City and the Temple - a Roman. And the evidence of Revelation 13 and 17 is overwhelming. He is a Roman. Added to this, at our Lord's trial the Jews confirmed that their king was a Caesar. You have no choice. The Beast is a Roman or Daniel is the figment of man's thoughts.
    I agree with you that the revelation beast is Rome but I see Daniels 4th beast as Greece

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You have gone to great lengths to make the word "ALL" not mean "ALL". And it will come back to bite you presently.

    I propose that "ALL Israel" means "ALL Israel" and the immediate CONTEXT, and the whole CONTEXT of the New Man, SUPPORTS THIS. I propose that the phrase, and/or concept of "TRUE Israel" appears NOWHERE and is a the figment of men's imagination. There is ONLY ISRAEL - period! Israel is defined as being from the loins of Jacob, unless the context alludes to the ten northern Tribes who were carried off to Assyria.
    Peter calls all the house of Israel what I would call Christians, people saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    All welcome, from the first generation A.D., to the 2nd generation A.D.; until the present and beyond.

    All welcomed in their own lifetimes to receive the Holy Spirit and forgiviness of sins through Christ, the one who gave Daniel's people reconciliation for iniquities.



    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36

    Peter knew nothing of post-ponement theology, or of all the house of Israel being treated anything less than the status of a full Christian born-again believer in Jesus.

  4. #64
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls;3500469 are Israel reconciled to God? Why, the stand under His chastising hand to this day. But 80 years ago, in Germany, some 1,900 years after Golgotha, we see Leviticus 26:33-38 taking place before our eyes!!!

    33 [I
    "And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
    34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
    35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
    36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
    37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies."[/I]
    38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

    Where then is the reconciliation?
    The reconciliation is here; welcomed to partake, as many shall received.

    Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

    2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world"

    5:20 "be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. "

    Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints"

    Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith"

    Philemon 2:16 "he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. "



    The scripture especially in Philemon; specifically tells us Jesus made reconciliation for the sins of the people. As the seed of Abraham. Made like unto his brethren.

    So do you really exclude Israel from all of these reconciliation verses that scripture says, were accomplished at the cross?


    I see Israel having the same promises and same reconciliation through Christ above, as anyone; or as Paul said, all they that be in the earth.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Brother, I would say that we should be cautious about how we interpret Rom 11:26-32. When Paul declared that (a) all Israel shall be saved (b) God has concluded them all in unbelief (c) that he might have mercy upon all - there is certainly an unstated caveat to these promises. I believe it will be a gross misrepresentation to take them on face value. For example, even at the time Paul wrote the letter (1st century), a significant number of Israel were believing Christians. Now, juxtapose with the statement "ALL Israel is in unbelief", and we see how impossible it is to run with the interpretation you seem to support.

    Verse 26 also said that ALL Israel shall be saved - but did Paul actually mean that every Tom, Dick and Harry of Israel stock will be saved whether they believe or not? Again, I don't know anyone who believes this to be even remotely true? The scriptures are emphatic that Jesus is the only to be saved. IOW, the Jew who continues to deny Christ (even in the end-times when God focuses his attention on them) will not be saved. Their intransigents will most likely be those to be slaughtered by the Beast.

    Interestingly God said he will have mercy on all. It's important we understand the context here. As we have seen throughout scripture, God showering his grace and supplication on humanity is one thing and all accepting his benevolence is another.

    Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Above we see God's mercy poured on the house of David (Israel + Judah) in fulfilment of this prophecy. Yet, Paul quoted Isaiah when he said:

    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Now, I've heard some falsely claim that the text refers to the survivors of the OT exiles. But this cannot possibly be true as it makes no sense in the context of Paul's argument about the fate of Israel in the NT dispensation. Many of Israel will die still rejecting Christ and end up in hellfire, (even in the end-times). And this proves the point that "all shall be saved" is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card that the Jew who throws God's mercy back on his face will still be saved.

    Finally, I agree that Dan 9:24, has not fully been fulfilled. Whoever claims the contrary is wrong.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    I challenge anyone who claims the passage is fulfilled to show me evidence of *everlasting righteousness* anywhere: whether among the Jew or the Gentile?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The reconciliation is here; welcomed to partake, as many shall received.

    Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

    2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world"

    5:20 "be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. "

    Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints"

    Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith"

    Philemon 2:16 "he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. "



    The scripture especially in Philemon; specifically tells us Jesus made reconciliation for the sins of the people. As the seed of Abraham. Made like unto his brethren.

    So do you really exclude Israel from all of these reconciliation verses that scripture says, were accomplished at the cross?


    I see Israel having the same promises and same reconciliation through Christ above, as anyone; or as Paul said, all they that be in the earth.
    My two esteemed brothers, I hope you will allow a general answer on this matter to save duplication. And I would like to say first off that the solution to this dilemma of ALL Israel SAVED is quite easy. The difficulty is what we have learned before. Let us address the context of Romans 11. Romans was written because in Rome, where Paul had not yet been, the ex-Jews (for they are now not a Jew anymore - but a New Man) and the ex-Gentiles (for they are not Romans anymore but a New Man) were not meeting together. The reeason advanced in the latter Chapters was because the ex-Jews (i) believed that they were superior because Christ was a Jew, and (ii) believed that the Law made them superior seeing as it came from God. So Paul's opening Chapters set forth the fact that ALL MEN, whether Jew or Gentile are under condemnation, sin and death. The He goes further to give the burden of guilt for Israel because Israel not only had the Law, but had the prophets which predicted their Messiah - Whom they summarily murdered.

    When Paul comes to Chapters 9 to 11, the burning question is then, "WHAT HOPE HAVE THE JEWS?" So Paul dedicates THREE Chapters to Israel's DESTINY. This is not only vitally important for the Christian to see, but above all it calls into question God's integrity. The reason for this is that the COVENANT OF PROMISE made with Abraham (NOT the Covenant of Sinai made through Moses) is UNCONDITIONAL. True, it is bound to CIRCUMCISION, but if Israel were obedient a child of eight days old would have no say in the matter. Thus, we have ONE COVENANT that places Israel in its LAND UNCONDITIONALLY - that with Abraham. And we have ONE COVENANT that ejects Israel from their Land BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS OF THE LAW (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). The question is, how will God solve this contradiction? How will He bring all Israelites into their Land to keep His PROMISES while at the same time Israel's breaking of the Covenant must drive Him to EJECT Israel from the Land.

    The ANSWER lies in TWO THINGS. (1) The meaning of the word "SAVED" when it pertains to Israel in CONTEXT of the Olive Tree, and (2) that Israel will have her sins under Law FORGIVEN.

    The OLIVE TREE:
    The Olive Tree is NEITHER Israel NOT the Church. A Tree in Parable is a KINGDOM with its KING (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). The OLIVE TREE is Christ's KINGDOM as it pertains to THE EARTH. Its consummation is is the Millennial Kingdom when the Church will rule the earth and Israel will be restored to their piece of earth. Christ is the Holy Root and stem, the natural branches are Israel, the wild branches are the believers. In Romans 11 this KINGDOM is not yet CONSUMMATED. Why?
    1. The CHURCH is not given the earth in this age. It is being built. It needs men and needs training. So the "times of the Gentiles" continue in this age and the Church is ordered to shun the present world system.
    2. ISRAEL is in CHASTISEMENT! It refused this Kingdom, murdered the King, was ejected from their Land and languishes among the Gentiles.

    But what is the DESTINY of this Kingdom?
    1. The Church is warned that they could be cut out as well. And truly, by direct statements like Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5, PLUS the Parables of the Kingdom, we see Christians cut out of the Kingdom
    2. Israel, though they may not be kings with Christ (Matt.21:43), will be restored to their Land as HOSTS of Emmanuel and in FAVOR with God. IN THIS THEY WILL BE SAVED!!! Israel's SALVATION is not rebirth, eternal life and transformation into the image of Christ! Israel's SALVATION is what the prophets say! Israel (1) will have their sins forgiven. ON WHAT BASIS? GOD'S MERCY! On what basis can a righteous God overlook all Israel's perfidy? On the basis of Christ death. IT WAS FOR THE SIN AND SINS OF THE WORLD (Jn.1:29; 1st Jn.2:2). God may legally extend mercy to who He wants. And while this mercy is judiciously applied to the Nations, it is WHOLLY APPLIED to Israel. And (2) Israel will be resurrected from their graves, and gathered from their dispersion (Ezekiel Chapter 37), BACK TO THEIR LAND with a New Covenant OF LAW (Jer.31:31-33). In this, God's integrity is upheld. He legally can forgive Israel, legally overturn the sins that caused the dispersion, legally resurrect them ALL and legally bring ALL Israelites since Abraham INTO THEIR LAND. And all this is PURE MERCY and made legal by Christ's death.

    A Tree is a Kingdom and its king. The Olive Tree is the Millennial Kingdom in preparation. Its King is Jesus and He has TWO types of branches;
    1. Israel, who were offered the Kingdom but refused it - BUT WHO ARE RESTORED TO THEIR LAND IN FAVOR forming the Kingdom of Israel with its "King of the Jews"
    2. The Believers who were offered the Kingdom, embraced it and who will rule the Kingdom of Heaven on earth WITH Christ

    Romans Chapters 9 to 11 do NOT address rebirth, having eternal life, transformation into the image of Christ and being God's spiritual House. They address WHO WILL MAKE UP THE KINGDOM ON EARTH DURING THE MILLENNIUM.

    If you can see this, ALL PROBLEMS ARE IMMEDIATELY SOLVED. The Believers are the believers and SOME enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and Israel is unbelieving, unfaithful, perfidious Israel, WHO ARE GRANTED MASSIVE MERCY, and restored to the Kingdom of Israel with Davi'd Son on the throne. If you want to continue with the understanding that "SAVED" in Romans 11 means rebirth, possessing eternal life, being raised with celestial glory and being the spiritual House of God, you will never be able to reconcile why ALL Israel are saved.

    I hope, if anything, to have planted a seed. I do not expect overnight agreement. I just point you to the meaning of SAVED in three Chapters that address whether God will keep His promises. If your doctrine is "saved and go to heaven", and 2not believe and go to hell" then you have unwittingly made God a liar. Israel NEVER believe until they see Jesus burst forth from the clouds. They continue in chastisement till this day. They continue in unbelief until this day. They continue in blindness till this day. there is no BASIS for Israel to enjoy "salvation" like the Church. But as to their Land - God's integrity hangs on it.

    Please forgive typos etc. I'm hitting the sack. It's 02:20 here. Go well brothers.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My two esteemed brothers, I hope you will allow a general answer on this matter to save duplication. And I would like to say first off that the solution to this dilemma of ALL Israel SAVED is quite easy.

    Israel NEVER believe until they see Jesus burst forth from the clouds. They continue in chastisement till this day. They continue in unbelief until this day. They continue in blindness till this day. there is no BASIS for Israel to enjoy "salvation" like the Church.

    Jesus and Paul and Isaiah, when is the day of salvation for Israel?

    Luke 19:7 "And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "

    2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."


    Luke what did you write? Simon Peter, what did you preach about when the salvation of Israel is?


    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    The whole theory of a Jewish redemption and restoration simply does not fit with all the prophesies.
    It is plainly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, how the Lord will come in fire and punish with eternal destruction; ALL those who refuse to acknowledge God and who reject Jesus.
    There is no Jewish 'get out of jail' card. Many prophesies tell us they will be decimated on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

    Thinking that the Jews are the only Israel and must receive God's Promises, is a serious contradiction of the many verses that tell us how we Christians are the inheritors of all the Promises, thru Jesus.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The whole theory of a Jewish redemption and restoration simply does not fit with all the prophesies.

    Its global and fills the whole earth and restores all things.

    It is plainly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, how the Lord will come in fire and punish with eternal destruction; ALL those who refuse to acknowledge God and who reject Jesus.
    There is no Jewish 'get out of jail' card. Many prophesies tell us they will be decimated on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.
    Agreed.
    I take it a step further and say there is no millennial card either. It is what it is and today is the day...., a complete rendering of judgment when Christ comes.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Jesus and Paul and Isaiah, when is the day of salvation for Israel?

    Luke 19:7 "And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "

    2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."


    Luke what did you write? Simon Peter, what did you preach about when the salvation of Israel is?


    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36
    As I said, I do not expect clarity overnight. I am actually encouraged though because you did not address my points. As an intelligent man you have to consider them and decide on them. I will only repeat what I said in my previous posting. There are many "salvations" in the Bible. The CONTEXT tells which one. Noah is "saved" but there is no mention of rebirth, eternal life and being conformed to the image of Christ. Israel are "saved" by the Lamb AND then again by the parting of the Red Sea AND then again by the cleft Rock AND then again by the Manna - all "salvations" and yet all different. So let us look at your proffered verses.

    God's original plan was to have man, a physical creature, in His image and likeness (Gen.1:26-28). Although this man was a perfect human being, he was short of something. He did not possess God's LIFE. To act and speak and to mirror God (the meaning of image) one must have His NATURE. So God placed man in front of the Tree of Life. When you eat fruit the elements of that fruit become organically one with the eater. But Adam did not eat of it, and instead ate of a Tree that poisoned his humanity unto death. So to recover Adam, God has to do TWO things;
    1. He has to find a JUDICIAL SOLUTION to the sin and sins
    2. He has to get Adam to eat of the Tree of Life

    Christ comes, lives a perfect human life, and thus qualifies Himself to be a JUDICIAL Substitute for all men. He pays the price of sin - death. Now the way to the Tree of Life is open and a man, when he believes in this Person and His Substitionary Work, undergoes a New Birth which among other things INFUSES the divine LIFE of God into the SPIRIT of this man (Jn.3:6). Thus, the man is "saved" from the trash heap. But God had a second purpose with this man. He was to replace the present ruler of this earth who had made his kingdom a chaos. So the man who believes is not only "saved" from the trash heap but is set on a road to CHANGE his fallen tendencies to the tendencies of Christ. Thus, his SOUL is "saved" (1st Pet.1:1-9). And finally, the corrupted BODY of a man, headed for death and dissolution to the elements, is "saved" from corruption by resurrection. So the man is "saved" by three different processes in three different areas - SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY. But his "salvation" is not complete. Why?

    The Man was made, redeemed, enlivened in his spirit, transformed in his soul and resurrected in his body TO BE A RULER of the earth. So the finished product is set before Christ and JUDGED to see if he is WORTHY of being a co-king over the earth and all that is in it. If he is found WORTHY he is made co-king with Christ and by entering the Kingdom as a king he is "saved". In Matthew 19:25, Mark 10:26 and Luke 18:26 our Lord proposed that certain men will have trouble entering the Kingdom, specifically the wealthy. "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?" So a man can be fully saved in spirit, soul and body but not be "saved" in entering the Kingdom. Being made a co-king in the coming Kingdom of Heaven when Christ sets it up on earth IS THE FINAL "SALVATION" BESIDES THE THREE ABOVE!

    THIS ... is the "salvation" that you, I, and many other Christians believe in. Now, let us turn to Israel. Before the Messiah came to do all of the above, Israel received COVENANTS. A Covenant is a CONTRACT. In the first CONTRACT God PROMISED to give Abraham and all his seed via Isaac a choice piece of this earth - Canaan. All Israel had to do to get this choice piece of earth was to be CIRCUMCISED - NOT be born again, not believe in Jesus, not be good, not be bad, not ANYTHING but circumcision. 430 years later, as Israel approach the borders of this Land, God made a second CONTRACT with Israel. This CONTRACT was a set of Laws that would make Israel (i) a testimony of God's justice, (ii) a testimony of God's blessing, and (iii) make Israel ritually clean to HOST the presence of a Holy God. If Israel kept this set of Laws, blessing upon blessing would descend on them to make them the most envied nation on earth. If they forsook this Law, they would be chastised and chastised until the point of being ejected from this Land and scattered among the Nations. BOTH THESE CONTRACTS DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT BELIEVING IN JESUS. They have their conditions - but faith in Jesus is NOT ONE OF THEM.

    So when Messiah appears on the scene, Israel is in CRISIS. Over 80% of Israelites have been deported by Assyria and then scattered among other nations as per the CONTRACT of Law. Over 95% of the remaining Israelites remained in Babylon and are now scattered to the ends of the earth. The less than 5% of Israel who are still in their Land are sick, dying and demon possessed. They pay lip service to the Law but inwardly possess the nature of a viper. To this people Jesus Christ OFFERS the "salvation" described above. But in ADDITION to this OFFER described above, there is the matter of the Good Land of Canaan. Irrespective of the above "salvation", Israel have one CONTRACT that PROMISES the Land to Israel, and another CONTRACT that overturns this with its CONDITIONS. BECAUSE OF ISRAEL'S LAWBREAKING the CONTRACT OF PROMISE is seemingly made impossible. So Messiah comes to set aside the problems - Israel's SINS. If Israel had embraced Messiah they would have had the "salvation" that we Christians understand (which I described above) AND Israel would have GOT THEIR LAND BACK.

    But Israel rejects Messiah and murders Him. They sought the Son of David to free them from heathen oppression when the underlying problem WAS NOT THE HEATHEN BUT ISRAEL'S SINS. So Israel, blind to their plight, and willing to break the Law of God at the drop of a hat, REFUSE MESSIAH. Since the "salvation" I described above is based on FAITH, Israel forfeit that "salvation". And since they REMAIN faithless and blind till they SEE Messiah again, there is NO SALVATION like we Christians understand it. BUT WHAT OF THE LAND? WHAT OF GOD'S PROMISE TO ABRAHAM? God made that PROMISE with an OATH (Heb.6:16-17). Is God a liar? Is He unable to keep His Word? Perish the thought!!! God is able to STILL RETURN Israel to their Land and make them the most renowned Nation on earth DESPITE unfaithfulness and blindness on Israel's part. IN THAT ISRAEL IS FORGIVEN AND RETURNED FROM THE "FOUR WINDS" TO WHICH THEY WERE SCATTERED, IS A "SALVATION". It is NOT the salvation we understand and experience but in the CONTEXT OF THE LAND, Israel will be SAVED from the destructive conditions of the Law when applied to a weak man. Let us examine one of the last prophets of Israel - Zacharias.

    I would dearly like to save space so as not to intimidate the reader, but the prophecy of Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79 is unavoidable. It's plain language needs little comment.

    67 "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
    76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
    77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
    78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
    79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."


    I will only ask this. Is the Holy Spirit speaking of the "salvation" as we Christians know it? Where is faith, rebirth, eternal life, transformation and resurrection for ruling the world? NOWHERE! What is this prophecy concerning Israel and the House of David? It is that God will remember His PROMISE to Abraham about the Land when Israel will have their sins put away and be restored to the Land in peace and safety from their enemies - with God in their midst being served by them. Verse 68 - "REDEEMED". Verse 69 - "SAVED". Verse 71 - "SAVED". Verse 74 - "DELIVERED". Verse 77 - "SALVATION". Verse 77 - "REMISSION OF SINS"

    I hope this sheds more light on how "ALL Israel" will be "SAVED".

  10. #70
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The whole theory of a Jewish redemption and restoration simply does not fit with all the prophesies.
    It is plainly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, how the Lord will come in fire and punish with eternal destruction; ALL those who refuse to acknowledge God and who reject Jesus.
    There is no Jewish 'get out of jail' card. Many prophesies tell us they will be decimated on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

    Thinking that the Jews are the only Israel and must receive God's Promises, is a serious contradiction of the many verses that tell us how we Christians are the inheritors of all the Promises, thru Jesus.
    You pose non-existent problems. No matter what chastisement falls on Israel, no matter how many are slaughtered, God has promised RESURRECTION. You are one-sided. You only deal with the chastisement and turn a blind eye to recovery. Hosea 6:1-2.

    1 "Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."


    And it is no good saying "many prophecies". You should have said "ALL", for if one prophecy remains promising mercy and restoration for Israel, then either God is a liar or Israel will be restored.

    Take Zacharias' prophecy in my previous posting. Will our Lord Jesus accomplish that or is God a liar? Your only way out of making God's Word of none effect is to CREATE more than one Israel - a notion that the Bible does not entertain. The Promise to Abraham is valid today and DESPITE Israel's perfidy and unfaithfulness God will bring it to pass. You only proffer verses concerning Israel's chastisement. You are unable to deal with with the dozens of scriptures predicting Israel's recovery. I propose you give a detailed exegesis on Zacharias' prophecy to show where I was wrong.

  11. #71
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As I said, I do not expect clarity overnight. I am actually encouraged though because you did not address my points. As an intelligent man you have to consider them and decide on them. I will only repeat what I said in my previous posting. There are many "salvations" in the Bible.

    I will only ask this. Is the Holy Spirit speaking of the "salvation" as we Christians know it?

    I hope this sheds more light on how "ALL Israel" will be "SAVED".
    Yes,
    You as an intelligent person, I also am encouraged because you did not address the points that Jesus, Isaiah, Peter, Luke, and Paul raised about the salvation of Israel for their sins, being available in the 1st century, and in the 2nd century, and all centuries since, during their lives, and not postponed until the endtime.

    The context of these verses, is 'when' is it that all Israel' can be saved (salvation) from their sins? When will the promise to Daniel for his people, their reconciliation for iniquity and an end of sin be made for them?

    Forgiveness of the sins of all the house of israel, is no different than forgiveness of sins for gentiles; for any type of convert; and those are when all Israel is saved. When they repent from their sins, and are reconciled to God.

    When Isaiah also prophesied in Isaiah 53, when would someone come and forgiven them for their iniquities? Was it Jesus at the cross, as Isaiah told us, or postponed until the end of time for a small subset of Jews living in that day, with all other Jews living in the thousands of years before them, having lived and died and missed their opportunity to be saved from their iniquities?

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    You as an intelligent person, know the answer, it is right in front of you, as the Holy Spirit leads. The Holy Spirit can changes minds through the power of the Word, and open eyes to His truth much better, and more clearly than my words. This is why I often try to limit my personal commentary telling the reader how to understand the scriptures; rather sharing the scriptures that speak the truth unabated, and allowing them to draw the heart, and to convince the reader.

    That day of Salvation for all Israel, is not postponed as the teaching you are following is misleading you on. You are an intelligent person, I believe you will start to see the truth of the gospel in relation to them and how it is an available reality; not a postponed restriction, to most of the house of Israel that has lived and died for 2000 years.

    Luke 19:7 "And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "

    2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."



    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36



  12. #72
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayle View Post
    But are you are saying that their is still a seven year event coming?
    What Scripture other than Daniel 9:27 is this based on?
    As you note there is clearly a 7 year period in Dan 9:27.
    The details though of this has a split in the middle.
    For further details of what happens DURING this split we need to look in Revelation.

    Rev 11 speaks of Two Witness who prophesy for 1260 days (which is basically 3.5 years). It then speaks of 42 months of the beast ruling in Rev 13.
    Add the two together such as the 3.5 days while the 2W lie dead in the street, and the time for those in Jerusalem to flee to safety and you get a 7 year period.

    2 Thess 2 also speaks of this event which occurs in the middle of the week, but the specific connection is not made.

  13. #73

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As you note there is clearly a 7 year period in Dan 9:27.
    The details though of this has a split in the middle.
    For further details of what happens DURING this split we need to look in Revelation.

    Rev 11 speaks of Two Witness who prophesy for 1260 days (which is basically 3.5 years). It then speaks of 42 months of the beast ruling in Rev 13.
    Add the two together such as the 3.5 days while the 2W lie dead in the street, and the time for those in Jerusalem to flee to safety and you get a 7 year period.

    2 Thess 2 also speaks of this event which occurs in the middle of the week, but the specific connection is not made.

    2 Thessalonians 2 does say regarding the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him; "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" We also know that it is the son of perdition that kills the two witnesses.

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

  14. #74
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Yes,
    You as an intelligent person, I also am encouraged because you did not address the points that Jesus, Isaiah, Peter, Luke, and Paul raised about the salvation of Israel for their sins, being available in the 1st century, and in the 2nd century, and all centuries since, during their lives, and not postponed until the endtime.

    The context of these verses, is 'when' is it that all Israel' can be saved (salvation) from their sins? When will the promise to Daniel for his people, their reconciliation for iniquity and an end of sin be made for them?

    Forgiveness of the sins of all the house of israel, is no different than forgiveness of sins for gentiles; for any type of convert; and those are when all Israel is saved. When they repent from their sins, and are reconciled to God.

    When Isaiah also prophesied in Isaiah 53, when would someone come and forgiven them for their iniquities? Was it Jesus at the cross, as Isaiah told us, or postponed until the end of time for a small subset of Jews living in that day, with all other Jews living in the thousands of years before them, having lived and died and missed their opportunity to be saved from their iniquities?

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    You as an intelligent person, know the answer, it is right in front of you, as the Holy Spirit leads. The Holy Spirit can changes minds through the power of the Word, and open eyes to His truth much better, and more clearly than my words. This is why I often try to limit my personal commentary telling the reader how to understand the scriptures; rather sharing the scriptures that speak the truth unabated, and allowing them to draw the heart, and to convince the reader.

    That day of Salvation for all Israel, is not postponed as the teaching you are following is misleading you on. You are an intelligent person, I believe you will start to see the truth of the gospel in relation to them and how it is an available reality; not a postponed restriction, to most of the house of Israel that has lived and died for 2000 years.

    Luke 19:7 "And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. "

    2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."



    "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36


    Thank you for your answer. I have only one question. If one is saved by faith in Jesus and His Work, could you show me how a woman can be "saved" by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15)? To save some writing (should you decide to take this challenge), I will concede that the woman in 1st Timothy 2:15 is already a Christian because she is to "continue" in faith and good works. That implies that she already had faith and good works. What I specifically want to know is how one is saved by childbearing and why it is only for women?

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your answer. I have only one question. If one is saved by faith in Jesus and His Work, could you show me how a woman can be "saved" by childbearing (1st Tim.2:15)? To save some writing (should you decide to take this challenge), I will concede that the woman in 1st Timothy 2:15 is already a Christian because she is to "continue" in faith and good works. That implies that she already had faith and good works. What I specifically want to know is how one is saved by childbearing and why it is only for women?
    This isn't in a literal sense as there is no spiritual difference between a woman giving birth and a woman not being able to. This is just saying that salvation is proven in obedience as the child bearing woman was being obedient in submitting to her husband and the church is living out her position in life.

    Child bearing was a great blessing in biblical times and this was showing a woman blessed by God for being obedient

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