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Thread: Seven year tribulation period

  1. #211

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    1Cor15:23 had said "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (meaning, there remains more than one... but that "the resurrection OF LIFE" [being distinct from "the resurrection of damnation"], John 5:29, has more than one-point-in-time of application:

    --firstfruit Christ in 32ad,

    --the "many" that arose also at that time in 32ad,

    --"the Church which is His body [the 'ONE BODY']"'s 'dead IN Christ' at the time of our Rapture,

    --the two witnesses at the 6th Trumpet time-slot,

    --the martyred/beheaded trib saints and those saints who die in the trib in Rev20:4,

    --the OT saints "at the end of the days [the specific 'days' referred to in THAT context, Dan12:6-7,1, meaning AFTER/END of the trib, per Dan12:13]



    ...ALL of THAT referring to "the FIRST resurrection" ['the resurrection
    OF LIFE
    '] but "EACH
    IN HIS OWN ORDER
    " [sequence/chronology]
    )


    ...it does not all take place at the same exact moment (a singular moment/point in time)


    "the resurrection OF DAMNATION" pertains solely to "the DEAD" [the "DEAD [/UNSAVED]" of all times], which is what the GWTj pertains to (FOLLOWING the 1000 yrs--and pertaining to the SECOND of
    TWO
    "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], the first of which PARALLELS the TIMING of Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5!! at the time of His SEcond Coming to the earth, Rev19!)


    ^ somehow that post got really messed up as far as formatting

  2. #212
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Pauls prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 has been grabbed by the 'rapture to heaven' proponents.
    And?
    I am not a "rapture to heaven proponent".
    It is a prophecy entirely about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. This is indisputably proved by how it is only then, that Death is no more. At the GWT, everyone who has ever lived will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
    Nope it is NOT proved by death being no more.
    Why do I say this?
    The answer is simple. Death is no more is stated in reference to those who have been resurrected from the dead. They are the ones who are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, which SPECIFICALLY refers to those who are IN Christ Jesus!
    At the GWToJ we have the "dead" raised to life. However those who have ALREADY been raised from death to life will NOT once AGAIN be raised to life, for they ARE alive.
    We who are IN Christ will not be at the GWToJ for judgement as that is a judgement to determine WHO will receive eternal life, but that has ALREADY been decided for us WHEN we accepted His substitutionary sacrifice.

    Your mis-interpretation and additions to this scripture is a result of the false belief that it takes place sometime before the end of the Millennium.
    As I have ADDED NOTHING to this scripture, but simply CLARIFIED who is being spoken about it is false to claim I have.
    The Rapture occurs BEFORE the Millennium is CERTAIN. Are you trying to claim it doesn't?
    At the Rapture the DEAD are raised to LIFE as stated with CERTAINTY by Paul. Are you trying to claim this is not so?

    I notice you didn't actually answer my previous questions.
    I think this is because to do so would show the error in your thinking.

  3. #213
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The souls of the beheaded who lived and reigned in verse 4, were resurrected after the 1000-year period, because this is when John said the first resurrection is. It says clearly in verse 5.
    I am trying to understand how you can make the above claim.
    John did NOT say the First Resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years.

    My friend, there is only (1) first resurrections. No where does it say the ones in verse 4, that these were resurrected. John saw souls of the beheaded.
    If you are DEAD and then you are ALIVE this REQUIRES you to be RESURRECTED - especially considering they are LIVING and REIGNING with Christ.
    Your alternate reality reading somehow means that DEAD people are living and reigning and yet REMAINING DEAD! This is such a COMPLETE NONSENSE I really find it unbelievable.

    You will need to look at verse 5 regarding resurrected people. This is where he speaks referring to the first resurrection and notice, he does not refer to these as "souls" in verse 5. Why? Because they are resurrected people and not souls of dead. After after the 1000-year period, they become resurrected and no where in the bible does it say before the 1000-years they are resurrected. "No where" my friend does it say this.
    Wow!
    Your problem is very SIMPLE. I think I understand it. You are basically claiming that the sentence at the END of verse 5 is referring to "the rest of the dead who did NOT come to life."
    However IT CANNOT be referring to THEM for THREE reasons:
    1) The DEAD are NOT resurrected, they are DEAD, therefore to refer to them as being part of the first RESURRECTION is a NONSENSE connection.
    2) It states that the DEAD are NOT part of the group who live and reign in verse 4 - they are listed as the REST.
    3) We must NOT forget to also read verse 6
    Rev 20:6* Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

    Now are you REALLY claiming that those who DO NOT LIVE during the thousand years are to be called blessed and holy. Are you further saying they are to be priests of God and of Christ?

    Finally note in verse 6 it STATES UNEQUIVOCALLY that the ones who take part in the FIRST RESURRECTION will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    So are you claiming that there will be a thousand years of ghosts living and reigning with Christ and then EVERYONE else will be resurrected and live and reign with Christ as His priests for a thousand years?

    Your claim really shows you have NOT read the whole CONTEXT and NOT taken in ALL that is stated about those who take part in the 1st resurrection.
    It is unarguable that EVERYONE who takes part in the 1st resurrection does so for a thousand years, living and reigning with Jesus as His priests. To claim otherwise is CONTRARY to scripture, a claim you make against others, and yet is the one you are guilty of.

  4. #214

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I am trying to understand how you can make the above claim.
    John did NOT say the First Resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years.
    Revelation 20:5
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If you are DEAD and then you are ALIVE this REQUIRES you to be RESURRECTED - especially considering they are LIVING and REIGNING with Christ.
    Your alternate reality reading somehow means that DEAD people are living and reigning and yet REMAINING DEAD! This is such a COMPLETE NONSENSE I really find it unbelievable.

    I find it unbelievable you do not accept the written word of God. Instead, you have to twist and imply the scripture says this or that, or that they really means this or that, just so they fit your position.

    He saw beheaded souls, not resurrected body's. The resurrection of the dead is after the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection (Rev 20:5).

    The resurrection the just and unjust is on one day. Paul plainly teaches Thessalonians that the gathering of the saints and the destruction of the wicked will be on one day, which he refers to as "that day" or "the day" of Christ, which will occur after the man of sin is revealed. This is the 1st resurrection which is after the 1000 years (rev 20:5).

    2 Thessalonians 1
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    Can't get any clearer and plain spoken than this.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow!
    Your problem is very SIMPLE. I think I understand it. You are basically claiming that the sentence at the END of verse 5 is referring to "the rest of the dead who did NOT come to life."
    However IT CANNOT be referring to THEM for THREE reasons:
    1) The DEAD are NOT resurrected, they are DEAD, therefore to refer to them as being part of the first RESURRECTION is a NONSENSE connection.
    2) It states that the DEAD are NOT part of the group who live and reign in verse 4 - they are listed as the REST.
    3) We must NOT forget to also read verse 6
    Rev 20:6* Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
    Really? The dead are not resurrected?
    Daniel 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Now are you REALLY claiming that those who DO NOT LIVE during the thousand years are to be called blessed and holy. Are you further saying they are to be priests of God and of Christ?
    I never said that. I said there is only one resurrection of the just and unjust and it's on one day.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Finally note in verse 6 it STATES UNEQUIVOCALLY that the ones who take part in the FIRST RESURRECTION will also reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    So are you claiming that there will be a thousand years of ghosts living and reigning with Christ and then EVERYONE else will be resurrected and live and reign with Christ as His priests for a thousand years?

    Your claim really shows you have NOT read the whole CONTEXT and NOT taken in ALL that is stated about those who take part in the 1st resurrection.
    It is unarguable that EVERYONE who takes part in the 1st resurrection does so for a thousand years, living and reigning with Jesus as His priests. To claim otherwise is CONTRARY to scripture, a claim you make against others, and yet is the one you are guilty of.

    Read this carefully. This is one sentence with a conjunction "and". "And" does not mean "after", or "then", or "next", nor does not "imply any order to the event". The verse simply states, "and shall reign with him a thousand years". It does not say they reigned 1000 years after being resurrected.

    If you tell your child, "I am going to cook potatoes "and" I shall fry some eggs". The statement is also true, "I shall fry some eggs "and" I am going to cook potatoes". Bacon "and" eggs or eggs "and" bacon. "And" does not suggest order of occurrence.


    The same verse can be written as this, and the meaning would not change at all:
    But they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years, and blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:


    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    So yes, there is only one resurrection in the end days and it is also the first resurrection and it is after the 1000-year period, when the man of sin is consumed with the brightness of the Lord at his coming.

  5. #215
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Revelation 20:5
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    And?!?
    This is NOT proving your point. IF you take a sentence OUT of CONTEXT you can make it mean almost anything.
    The sentence "This is the first resurrection" is NOT written in isolation, but has a whole number of verses around it.
    You ignore verse 4 and verse 6 as IF verse 5 is the ENTIRE meaning of things.

    I find it unbelievable you do not accept the written word of God. Instead, you have to twist and imply the scripture says this or that, or that they really means this or that, just so they fit your position.
    I find it UNBELIEVABLE you do NOT accept the written word of God.
    I have twisted NOTHING.
    The real twist is by you.
    Let me put the sentence of verse 5 with the sentences of verse 6 and we can see this plainly:
    This is the first resurrection.*Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.*

    Very clearly here, those who share in the first resurrection live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years!

    He saw beheaded souls, not resurrected body's. The resurrection of the dead is after the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection (Rev 20:5).
    How can you see a beheaded soul? Does a soul have a head? You seem to be suggesting he saw ghosts!
    He saw the souls of those who HAD BEEN beheaded:
    Rev 20:4...Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God..

    There were NO LONGER beheaded! The past tense of there being beheaded should tell you something.

    The resurrection the just and unjust is on one day. Paul plainly teaches Thessalonians that the gathering of the saints and the destruction of the wicked will be on one day, which he refers to as "that day" or "the day" of Christ, which will occur after the man of sin is revealed. This is the 1st resurrection which is after the 1000 years (rev 20:5).
    And?1? I agree that the resurrection of the just and unjust is on one day.
    This does NOT counter the FACT that Rev 20:4 - 6 has the resurrection of those who are IN Christ.
    Your error is in conflating those who are IN Christ, with the just. These are TWO separate groups.
    The just AND the unjust are those who are resurrected for JUDGEMENT at the GWToJ for Eternal life.

    2 Thessalonians 1
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    Can't get any clearer and plain spoken than this.
    It is plain, but you are making 3+2 = 4.

    Really? The dead are not resurrected?
    Daniel 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    I didn't say they are NEVER resurrected, I highlighted that when they are called DEAD they have NOT BEEN resurrected. This is because they are DEAD. They are then raised for judgement, at which point they are not called the dead, but are noted as those who WERE dead.

    I never said that. I said there is only one resurrection of the just and unjust and it's on one day.
    Yes you did. You may have said the other, but the point is that IF you are saying "the rest of the dead" are the ones being referred to as the ones who take part in the first reusrrection THEN this is EXACTLY the meaning you are applying to "the first resurrection".

    Read this carefully. This is one sentence with a conjunction "and". "And" does not mean "after", or "then", or "next", nor does not "imply any order to the event". The verse simply states, "and shall reign with him a thousand years". It does not say they reigned 1000 years after being resurrected.
    If you tell your child, "I am going to cook potatoes "and" I shall fry some eggs". The statement is also true, "I shall fry some eggs "and" I am going to cook potatoes". Bacon "and" eggs or eggs "and" bacon. "And" does not suggest order of occurrence.
    If you stated the above sentence then your child would expect to have BOTH potatoes AND eggs to be cooked.
    The sentence is VERY CLEAR and the MEANING is also CLEAR.

    The same verse can be written as this, and the meaning would not change at all:
    But they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years, and blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    So yes, there is only one resurrection in the end days and it is also the first resurrection and it is after the 1000-year period, when the man of sin is consumed with the brightness of the Lord at his coming.
    I have no IDEA how you can claim your conclusion based upon your sentence rearrangement.
    The first resurrection CANNOT occur AFTER the thousand years AS your rearranged sentence STILL states that the reigning is for the DURATION of the thousand years, which MEANS it is NOT AFTER the thousand years.
    Further you FAILED to deal with the point that you are having EVERYONE - "just and unjust" - taking part in this first resurrection, which means you are making EVERYONE blessed AND you are having everyone reign with Jesus, and be His priests, which is ALL a NONSENSE.

  6. #216

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    And?!?
    This is NOT proving your point. IF you take a sentence OUT of CONTEXT you can make it mean almost anything.
    The sentence "This is the first resurrection" is NOT written in isolation, but has a whole number of verses around it.
    You ignore verse 4 and verse 6 as IF verse 5 is the ENTIRE meaning of things.


    I find it UNBELIEVABLE you do NOT accept the written word of God.
    I have twisted NOTHING.
    The real twist is by you.
    Let me put the sentence of verse 5 with the sentences of verse 6 and we can see this plainly:
    This is the first resurrection.*Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.*

    Very clearly here, those who share in the first resurrection live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years!


    How can you see a beheaded soul? Does a soul have a head? You seem to be suggesting he saw ghosts!
    He saw the souls of those who HAD BEEN beheaded:
    Rev 20:4...Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God..

    There were NO LONGER beheaded! The past tense of there being beheaded should tell you something.


    And?1? I agree that the resurrection of the just and unjust is on one day.
    This does NOT counter the FACT that Rev 20:4 - 6 has the resurrection of those who are IN Christ.
    Your error is in conflating those who are IN Christ, with the just. These are TWO separate groups.
    The just AND the unjust are those who are resurrected for JUDGEMENT at the GWToJ for Eternal life.


    It is plain, but you are making 3+2 = 4.


    I didn't say they are NEVER resurrected, I highlighted that when they are called DEAD they have NOT BEEN resurrected. This is because they are DEAD. They are then raised for judgement, at which point they are not called the dead, but are noted as those who WERE dead.


    Yes you did. You may have said the other, but the point is that IF you are saying "the rest of the dead" are the ones being referred to as the ones who take part in the first reusrrection THEN this is EXACTLY the meaning you are applying to "the first resurrection".


    If you stated the above sentence then your child would expect to have BOTH potatoes AND eggs to be cooked.
    The sentence is VERY CLEAR and the MEANING is also CLEAR.


    I have no IDEA how you can claim your conclusion based upon your sentence rearrangement.
    The first resurrection CANNOT occur AFTER the thousand years AS your rearranged sentence STILL states that the reigning is for the DURATION of the thousand years, which MEANS it is NOT AFTER the thousand years.
    Further you FAILED to deal with the point that you are having EVERYONE - "just and unjust" - taking part in this first resurrection, which means you are making EVERYONE blessed AND you are having everyone reign with Jesus, and be His priests, which is ALL a NONSENSE.

    There is only one resurrection in the end and it is called "the first resurrection". This is a resurrection of the just and the unjust and is on the same day which is "in that day". The Lord shall be revealed from heaven and Jesus will gather the saints together unto him. Then he will be taking vengeance on the unjust In flaming fire, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

    2 Thessalonians 1
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    This is exactly what the bible says, and there is no more to be said on the subject. Your interpretation of Revelation is as wrong as you can get from the truth of the scriptures.

  7. #217
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    There is only one resurrection in the end and it is called "the first resurrection". This is a resurrection of the just and the unjust and is on the same day which is "in that day". The Lord shall be revealed from heaven and Jesus will gather the saints together unto him. Then he will be taking vengeance on the unjust In flaming fire, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.
    I note you side-stepped the points I made and simply choose to make a declaration.
    There is NOT one resurrection, for there is a first, and then one a thousand years later.
    The first resurrection is ONLY for those who will be priests of Jesus as Rev 20:6 UNEQUIVOCALLY states.
    As you choose to claim that BOTH the just AND the unjust will take part is this resurrection and so EVERYONE will be priests and blessed for a thousand years, I am not sure what else can be said.

    This is exactly what the bible says, and there is no more to be said on the subject. Your interpretation of Revelation is as wrong as you can get from the truth of the scriptures.
    What you have stated above is 100% correct, but NOT in regards to what you have put.
    You have been SHOWN that Rev 20:6 CLARIFIES that EVERYONE who takes part in the first resurrection is BOTH blessed and will reign with Jesus for a thousand years and will be His priests, and yet you continue to claim that the unjust are part of that resurrection.
    I do not understand HOW you can justify such a position. The unjust will NEVER reign with Jesus. This shows how wrong your understanding of this passage is. This is very clear.
    The FACT you CANNOT show HOW your view of Rev 20:4 - 6 is correct based upon its CONTEXT shows how errant your view is.

  8. #218
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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    And?
    I am not a "rapture to heaven proponent".

    Nope it is NOT proved by death being no more.
    Why do I say this?
    The answer is simple. Death is no more is stated in reference to those who have been resurrected from the dead. They are the ones who are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, which SPECIFICALLY refers to those who are IN Christ Jesus!
    At the GWToJ we have the "dead" raised to life. However those who have ALREADY been raised from death to life will NOT once AGAIN be raised to life, for they ARE alive.
    We who are IN Christ will not be at the GWToJ for judgement as that is a judgement to determine WHO will receive eternal life, but that has ALREADY been decided for us WHEN we accepted His substitutionary sacrifice.


    As I have ADDED NOTHING to this scripture, but simply CLARIFIED who is being spoken about it is false to claim I have.
    The Rapture occurs BEFORE the Millennium is CERTAIN. Are you trying to claim it doesn't?
    At the Rapture the DEAD are raised to LIFE as stated with CERTAINTY by Paul. Are you trying to claim this is not so?

    I notice you didn't actually answer my previous questions.
    I think this is because to do so would show the error in your thinking.
    Revelation 21:4 is indisputable; Only after the Millennium, is Death done away with. Paul rejoices in this in 1 Cor 15:54-55.
    The resurrection of the GT martyrs, Revelation 20:4, is plainly stated as a bringing back to life, NOT a conferring of immortality.

    You say; We who are IN Christ will not be at the GWToJ for judgement as that is a judgement to determine WHO will receive eternal life, but that has ALREADY been decided for us WHEN we accepted His substitutionary sacrifice. Quote GHG
    This statement is error as it directly conflicts with Revelation 20:12-13. Everyone will stand before God at the GWT.
    We Christians do receive the Promise of Eternal life when we accept Jesus. John 3:16 But we do not receive it until the Books are opened and our name is found Written in it. It is quite possible to have our name erased from the Book, for sins or for renouncing God. Psalms 69:28

    You are surely adding to scripture, when you say 'all Christians will be raised at the Return of Jesus'. Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that only the GT martyrs will be and the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years have ended.

    What you and many do not seem to realize, is that the world will carry on much as it is now, for the Millennium. It will be a better life under King Jesus, but the world will continue on and people will be born and will die of accidents and old age.
    A short period is coming soon of troubles that we must stand firm in our faith thru all that is prophesied to happen. Then Jesus will Return and gather all the faithful Christians to Him and we will become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

    ONLY after the GWT Judgment. comes the New Heavens and the New Earth and immortality for all who have proved they are worthy.
    The error in your thinking, is anyone getting immortality before then.

  9. #219

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I note you side-stepped the points I made and simply choose to make a declaration.
    There is NOT one resurrection, for there is a first, and then one a thousand years later.
    The bible no where mentions a second resurrection. Sorry my friend.
    The bible does not say that anyone in verse 4 has been resurrected. This is an assumption you are making to fit your narrative. This is where your whole theory is flawed because you insist these have been resurrected and you call it the first resurrection. The bible already reveals when the first resurrection is, "until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5).

    Revelation 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    No mention anywhere in this verse of a resurrection. A soul is not the body. If it say its a soul, then its a soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The first resurrection is ONLY for those who will be priests of Jesus as Rev 20:6 UNEQUIVOCALLY states.
    As you choose to claim that BOTH the just AND the unjust will take part is this resurrection and so EVERYONE will be priests and blessed for a thousand years, I am not sure what else can be said.
    The first resurrection is for the just and unjust, which is after the thousand years were finished, as stated in verse 5. Both in one day, "in that day". The rest of the dead (unjust) did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Their souls are in a dormant or non-living state, being apart from the presence of Jesus, when they die. When the 1000 years is ended, their body and soul will be resurrected awaiting judgment.
    verse 5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" - This is the resurrection of the unjust.
    verse 6 - "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"- This is the resurrection of the just.

    Revelation 20:
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I do not understand HOW you can justify such a position. The unjust will NEVER reign with Jesus. This shows how wrong your understanding of this passage is. This is very clear.
    The FACT you CANNOT show HOW your view of Rev 20:4 - 6 is correct based upon its CONTEXT shows how errant your view is.
    I have never claimed the unjust reigns with Jesus. I said the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. I also said there is only (1) first resurrection. I also said, the first resurrection is the only resurrection at the end of days for the just and unjust, after the 1000-years, after the man of sin is revealed "in that day":
    For the just (when we are gathered to be with Jesus when he is revealed with his angels) - in that day.
    For the unjust (who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord) - in that day.

    Revelation 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The bible no where mentions a second resurrection. Sorry my friend.
    The bible does not say that anyone in verse 4 has been resurrected. This is an assumption you are making to fit your narrative. This is where your whole theory is flawed because you insist these have been resurrected and you call it the first resurrection. The bible already reveals when the first resurrection is, "until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5).

    Revelation 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    No mention anywhere in this verse of a resurrection. A soul is not the body. If it say its a soul, then its a soul.
    If you have a first resurrection and then you have "the rest" then this means there is MORE THAN ONE resurrection. This is so simple a child can understand it. I am sorry you seem unable to accept it do to the bias of your interpretation.
    Also Rev 20:4 is NOT stated in isolation. It is stated with verse 5 and 6 and verses 1 - 3.
    Also it states that those who were beheaded, live and reign THIS requires a resurrection UNLESS you are claiming you live and reign AS A GHOST!
    There is no need for the word "resurrection" to be used, just as the word "church" is not required throughout Revelation.

    A soul is a PERSON, and IF you read Ge 2:7 then a soul IS a body. There are numerous examples you have been given in this thread where the word "soul" is used for a living, breathing person who has a body.
    You choose to ignore ALL these verses.

    The first resurrection is for the just and unjust, which is after the thousand years were finished, as stated in verse 5. Both in one day, "in that day". The rest of the dead (unjust) did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Their souls are in a dormant or non-living state, being apart from the presence of Jesus, when they die. When the 1000 years is ended, their body and soul will be resurrected awaiting judgment.
    verse 5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" - This is the resurrection of the unjust.
    verse 6 - "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"- This is the resurrection of the just.

    Revelation 20:
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Incorrect - it is IMPOSSIBLE for the first resurrection to be for the just AND unjust as verse 6 CLEARLY states that the one who takes part in the first resurrection is BLESSED and HOLY.
    Are you saying that the unjust ARE blessed and holy?
    Further it states those who take part in the first resurrection live and reign with Christ FOR a thousand years. So are you saying the UNJUST live and reign for a thousand years?
    Wowsers, talk about ignoring what is CLEALRLY stated.

    I have never claimed the unjust reigns with Jesus. I said the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. I also said there is only (1) first resurrection. I also said, the first resurrection is the only resurrection at the end of days for the just and unjust, after the 1000-years, after the man of sin is revealed "in that day":
    For the just (when we are gathered to be with Jesus when he is revealed with his angels) - in that day.
    For the unjust (who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord) - in that day.
    Sorry, but the verse 6 speaks of those who take part in the first resurrection. YOU say the UNJUST take part in that resurrection which therefore means YOU are saying the UNJUST live and reign for a thousand years.
    Scripture does NOT allow for your bizarre claim about what Rev 20 states.
    Every Amil who tries to argue for a single resurrection of the just and unjust recognise the IMPOSSIBILITY of that claim in regards to Rev 20 and so make Rev 20 speak about the PRESENT world.
    They claim the living and reigning is NOW, which really makes them PostMil.
    As you seem to refuse to accept what scripture actually says, there is little more which can be said.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 21:4 is indisputable; Only after the Millennium, is Death done away with. Paul rejoices in this in 1 Cor 15:54-55.
    The resurrection of the GT martyrs, Revelation 20:4, is plainly stated as a bringing back to life, NOT a conferring of immortality.
    Really. Rev 21:4 does NOT speak of death ending for EVERYONE.
    It is speaking ONLY of those who are in the New Jerusalem.
    1 Cor 15 is also EXPLICITLY speaking of those who are IN Christ.

    You say; We who are IN Christ will not be at the GWToJ for judgement as that is a judgement to determine WHO will receive eternal life, but that has ALREADY been decided for us WHEN we accepted His substitutionary sacrifice. Quote GHG
    This statement is error as it directly conflicts with Revelation 20:12-13. Everyone will stand before God at the GWT.
    We Christians do receive the Promise of Eternal life when we accept Jesus. John 3:16 But we do not receive it until the Books are opened and our name is found Written in it. It is quite possible to have our name erased from the Book, for sins or for renouncing God. Psalms 69:28
    Nope my statement is NOT in error. It has NO conflict with Rev 20:12 - 13 for that speaks of the DEAD.
    We however are NOT the DEAD, but the living, as Jesus declares in John 5.
    You are claiming things which the verses you quote simply do not support.

    You are surely adding to scripture, when you say 'all Christians will be raised at the Return of Jesus'. Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that only the GT martyrs will be and the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years have ended.
    I am not basing my claim off Rev 20:4 - 5 but from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 which BOTH state UNEQUIVOCALLY that those who are In Christ will be clothed in IMMORTALITY, and that the dead IN Christ are raised AT His return.
    Rev 20 does nOt state ONLY those who are martyred In Christ are resurrected. It states that those who are martyred WILL be resurrected, but it is NOT a statement of exclusion for other Christians.

    What you and many do not seem to realize, is that the world will carry on much as it is now, for the Millennium. It will be a better life under King Jesus, but the world will continue on and people will be born and will die of accidents and old age.
    A short period is coming soon of troubles that we must stand firm in our faith thru all that is prophesied to happen. Then Jesus will Return and gather all the faithful Christians to Him and we will become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10
    Actually the Millennium will be very different for Jesus will be reigning on the earth. Therefore this will be a difference of IMMENSE importance and to belittle the reign of Jesus on the earth is quite disappointing.

  12. #222

    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If you have a first resurrection and then you have "the rest" then this means there is MORE THAN ONE resurrection. This is so simple a child can understand it. I am sorry you seem unable to accept it do to the bias of your interpretation.
    Also Rev 20:4 is NOT stated in isolation. It is stated with verse 5 and 6 and verses 1 - 3.
    Also it states that those who were beheaded, live and reign THIS requires a resurrection UNLESS you are claiming you live and reign AS A GHOST!
    There is no need for the word "resurrection" to be used, just as the word "church" is not required throughout Revelation.
    Not living as a ghost, but as a soul.

    But see, now your adding to what the text says. The bible only mentions the first resurrection. Why would you automatically assume that "the rest" would have to be resurrected separately? Do you think that God would not be able to tell the difference between those that are his, and "the rest" in the first resurrection?

    So why you are hung up on the fact, that both the just and unjust will be resurrected from the grave at the same moment in time is perplexing. In this resurrection, those that are Christ will rise in the air to be with the Lord. The sinners will be left on the ground for everlasting punishment.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    A soul is a PERSON, and IF you read Ge 2:7 then a soul IS a body. There are numerous examples you have been given in this thread where the word "soul" is used for a living, breathing person who has a body.
    You choose to ignore ALL these verses.
    If you notice, before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, his body was just laying there on the ground, being a lifeless lump of clay. However, when God breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life", then man became a "living" soul. This is the same soul as those souls John saw, that were beheaded. And they will reign with Christ for 1000-years. While their bodies lay there (just like Adam's Body) as a lifeless lump of clay. When God said, "living", he means it is living, even though being absent from the body.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect - it is IMPOSSIBLE for the first resurrection to be for the just AND unjust as verse 6 CLEARLY states that the one who takes part in the first resurrection is BLESSED and HOLY.
    The BLESSED and HOLY will be part of the 1st resurrection.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Are you saying that the unjust ARE blessed and holy?
    Not at all, the unjust are definitely not blessed and holy.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Further it states those who take part in the first resurrection live and reign with Christ FOR a thousand years. So are you saying the UNJUST live and reign for a thousand years?
    Wowsers, talk about ignoring what is CLEALRLY stated.
    Not at all, the unjust does not live again until after the 1000 years are finished. This is the first resurrection.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry, but the verse 6 speaks of those who take part in the first resurrection. YOU say the UNJUST take part in that resurrection which therefore means YOU are saying the UNJUST live and reign for a thousand years.
    The unjust are not reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. They are not reigning with Jesus during this period. Only the blessed and holy reign with Jesus for 1000 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Scripture does NOT allow for your bizarre claim about what Rev 20 states.
    Every Amil who tries to argue for a single resurrection of the just and unjust recognise the IMPOSSIBILITY of that claim in regards to Rev 20 and so make Rev 20 speak about the PRESENT world.
    They claim the living and reigning is NOW, which really makes them PostMil.
    As you seem to refuse to accept what scripture actually says, there is little more which can be said.
    This will come as a shocker, but I also believe the 1000 year period is now, until the man of sin is revealed.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    I am not basing my claim off Rev 20:4 - 5 but from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 which BOTH state UNEQUIVOCALLY that those who are In Christ will be clothed in IMMORTALITY, and that the dead IN Christ are raised AT His return.
    Rev 20 does NOT state ONLY those who are martyred In Christ are resurrected. It states that those who are martyred WILL be resurrected, but it is NOT a statement of exclusion for other Christians.
    This is where you go right off the rails, your false belief in immortality before the GWT causes you to read scripture incorrectly and to add what is not there.
    Revelation 20:4 states that those killed during the GT will be brought back to life. Note; this is NOT to Eternal life yet.
    Then Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is ended.

    Pauls prophecy in 1 Thess 4 simply does not say those in Christ will receive immortality at that time and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 does not happen at the Return.
    Your insistent belief in false teachings is making you look somewhat churlish.

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This is where you go right off the rails, your false belief in immortality before the GWT causes you to read scripture incorrectly and to add what is not there.
    Not adding anything to 1 Thess 4. It very simply states those who WERE dead are brought to life and meet Jesus in the clouds. 1 Cor 15 also notes this event and states that those who were in Christ are clothed in immortality.

    Revelation 20:4 states that those killed during the GT will be brought back to life. Note; this is NOT to Eternal life yet.
    Then Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is ended.
    Actually this clearly IS to immortality, as it states that those who are raised to life in this first resurrection will NOT suffer the second death - for it has no power over them.

    Pauls prophecy in 1 Thess 4 simply does not say those in Christ will receive immortality at that time and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 does not happen at the Return.
    Your insistent belief in false teachings is making you look somewhat churlish.
    As 1 Cor 15 IS the SAME event as 1 Thess 4, so your claim is wrong. You are trying to claim it is a different time, but 1 Cor 15 EXPLICITLY is AT the return.
    Your insistent belief that something which is clearly shown, somehow isn't makes you look...

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    Re: Seven year tribulation period

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Not living as a ghost, but as a soul.
    But see, now your adding to what the text says. The bible only mentions the first resurrection. Why would you automatically assume that "the rest" would have to be resurrected separately? Do you think that God would not be able to tell the difference between those that are his, and "the rest" in the first resurrection?
    So why you are hung up on the fact, that both the just and unjust will be resurrected from the grave at the same moment in time is perplexing. In this resurrection, those that are Christ will rise in the air to be with the Lord. The sinners will be left on the ground for everlasting punishment.
    What does it mean to live as a "soul"? Scripture shows a "soul" living with a BODY. You are trying to argue that NO body is involved, which therefore means as an INCOPOREAL being, which is known as a GHOST!
    I am not adding anything to what the text says, I am simply clarifying what the meaning is.
    The Bible mentions a FIRST resurrection AND it mentions "the rest of the dead". therefore there are ONLY two choices.
    1) There is a first resurrection, and then there is a later resurrection for the rest of the dead. This is the simplest and most logical meaning that is engendered both by the numeration of the resurrection AND from the CONTEXT. Therefore at least TWO resurrections.
    2) Somehow "the rest of the dead" are part of the first resurrection, which then means "the rest of the dead" are blessed and holy and live and reign with Christ. This makes a mockery as with only one resurrection then this includes the unjust as well as the just.

    If you notice, before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, his body was just laying there on the ground, being a lifeless lump of clay. However, when God breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life", then man became a "living" soul. This is the same soul as those souls John saw, that were beheaded. And they will reign with Christ for 1000-years. While their bodies lay there (just like Adam's Body) as a lifeless lump of clay. When God said, "living", he means it is living, even though being absent from the body.
    A lifeless lump of clay is NOT a soul. I haven;t argued that it is - that is simply a body. However a living soul IS that same lump of clay in-filled with the life that God gives.
    That is what Genesis 2:7 EXPLICITLY states:

    Genesis 2:7
    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Now clearly Rev 20:4 states that these souls are LIVING, this then from scripture shows that they are made alive and have a body in order to live.

    The BLESSED and HOLY will be part of the 1st resurrection.
    Incorrect, it states those who take part in the first resurrection ARE blessed and holy. This means EVERYONE who is part of the first resurrection is blessed and holy AND lives and reigns with Christ.

    Not at all, the unjust are definitely not blessed and holy.
    So now you are contradicting YOURSELF, for you have stated that the unjust take part in the first resurrection, and those who take part int he first resurrection ARE blessed and holy.

    The unjust are not reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. They are not reigning with Jesus during this period. Only the blessed and holy reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
    The verse states those who take part in the first resurrection ARE blessed and holy.
    Rev 20:6* Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

    You seem to want to deny scripture. Not a good thing to do. It clearly states that those who take part IN the first resurrection ARE blessed and holy AND that hey are priests of God and reign with Him a thousand years. Therefore very simply as we agree that the unjust are NOT blessed and holy, nor are they priests of God, nor do they reign for a thousand years THEN this means they do NOT take part in the first resurrection.

    This will come as a shocker, but I also believe the 1000 year period is now, until the man of sin is revealed.
    Not really. Just makes you another PostMil who is very confused.

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