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Thread: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

  1. #16
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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
    WOW!!!!! what a misinterpretation for the NASB, I can't believe it!!!! This interpretation is a crime!!!!

    KJV

    13 And I (JOHN) stood upon the sand of the sea,

    How can one say the dragon stands (which a dragon I don't think can stand) and the other John?

    Does the interpretation of the NASB even make sense.? So there is a dragon on the sand, while a beast is rising up from the sea. Still have the issue of an entity coming up from the sea?
    13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the [a]seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea,

    The text in KJV Rev 12 says the dragon was cast INTO the earth. What would it matter if he was only cast to the earth? He already had dominion and access to the earth.....

    No wonder why you guys can't see what I am saying. You have been brought up on the NASB.

    John is in the Spirit the whole time somewhere on Patmos.
    Rev 1 NASB
    9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and [g]perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was [h]in the Spirit on the Lord’s day,

    Well John was in the flesh on Patmos at the beginning.

    So then does saying "he was in the Spirit" mean he was out from his flesh the entire rest of the time? Chapter 4 seems to indicate not the case as we see him again being in the Spirit and taken to heaven. Was he not already in the Spirit from chapter 1? Thus appears he may be going back and forth from each state or the first reference was not an out of body experience.

    Rev 4 NASB
    4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was [a]in the Spirit;

    And again back into the Spirit was he not in the Spirit Rev 4?

    Rev 22 NASB
    10 And he carried me away [g]in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem,


    Note we also see references of John seeing events from an earth perspective and not in heaven thus indicating not having to be out of the body.

    Rev 21 NASB
    21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,


    So showing in NASB itself that on many occasions John is taken back in the Spirit indicates that he was not always in the Spirit. Thus it is possible for him to be standing on the seashore in the flesh. And further study shows it was him not the dragon.

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Yes it does mean the body of water adjacent to Patmos. Not only does it say "sea" but John is standing on the sand. Do you say John is a liar?

    The entrance of the pit does exist, right?


    Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.



    This is your interpretation. The kingdoms in Dan 2 are not the beasts in Dan 7. The beasts in Dan 7 are the beast in Rev 13. (note they are the first four seals). Note these beasts were not on the earth in the past. The four beast make up the 4th kingdom of Dan 2.



    What come up from the bottomless pit that kills the 2W and is seen with the woman in Rev 17? So your logic fails as this entity was not human coming up from the pit either.

    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



    "out of the earth"...….one can still be out of the earth AND from the sea. Much of our land mass is covered by water you know.



    Can the Spirit of the AC indwell living flesh?

    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


    Bata book bata boom!!!!
    You been mislead, we have all been mislead. Sea is the literal sea in Rev 13. John is literally standing on the sand of the shore.
    So because John stood close to water when he saw the visions, we should ignore scripture and conclude that the beasts magically materislised from water?

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So because John stood close to water when he saw the visions, we should ignore scripture and conclude that the beasts magically materislised from water?
    We know that demonic spirits location is IN the earth, thus is it possible the gates over covered by the sea.

    Now I am not saying people (flesh) are coming up from the earth but spirits entities which take form. Evidenced by the text I showed showing entities coming up from the pit and being kings making war ect….

    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    How was it possible for those 2 angels from heaven in Sodom materialize?

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    WOW!!!!! what a misinterpretation for the NASB, I can't believe it!!!! This interpretation is a crime!!!!

    KJV

    13 And I (JOHN) stood upon the sand of the sea,

    How can one say the dragon stands (which a dragon I don't think can stand) and the other John?

    Some versions say "I" , some say "dragon" and some say "he". ,

    Rev 12 and 13
    17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
    And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
    Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.


    The dragon was cast down to earth while John was caught up to be shown these things. So who is more likely to be standing on the seashore? It is satan waiting his opportunity for his final little season by giving the beast his power....whatever that means.


    2Thess 2 appears to support the idea that it is through satans activity that the end time beast / man of sin - is empowered.


    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Some versions say "I" , some say "dragon" and some say "he". ,

    Rev 12 and 13
    17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
    And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
    Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.


    The dragon was cast down to earth while John was caught up to be shown these things. So who is more likely to be standing on the seashore? It is satan waiting his opportunity for his final little season by giving the beast his power....whatever that means.


    2Thess 2 appears to support the idea that it is through satans activity that the end time beast / man of sin - is empowered.


    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
    I agree totally, verse 3 does say, "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    It goes on to say in verse 8; "then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

    Then he speaks of the Lords coming again in verse 9, "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

    Paul says, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"


    2 Thessalonians 2
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    So this is going to be a terrible time for those who do not accept the truth. They are going to be Satan's target.

  6. #21
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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Some versions say "I" , some say "dragon" and some say "he". ,
    Well it is the newer versions which have the dragon standing on the sea.

    For versions to differ that greatly from who is actually standing is a major concern. Someone is wrong, and the motive may not be pure. And I think it would be best to side with the older versions.

    In addition, the Greek for this verse has no where near the wording for Dragon. The Greek word is "eidon" which mean he/they/I "saw". Thus the injection of dragon by the newer versions is not warranted and pure man made decision.

    The dragon was cast down to earth while John was caught up to be shown these things. So who is more likely to be standing on the seashore?
    Well John was at the island of Patmos surrounded by sea and sand. So I would have to say John.

    You keep alluding to John not being on Patmos but viewing all this above. I would say pertaining events in heaven yes but the fact many times he states he is back in the Spirit denoting perhaps out side this realm means at times he is not.

    The dragon was cast INTO the earth, and would have been the one coming up from the sea. But again the NASB omits the word "into" in Rev 12.

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    Does the above mean that John saw the Beast rise out of a literal body of water - the Mediterranean, Atlantic or Pacific ocean, perhaps? That will, of course, be a ludicrous rendition of the text. So what does the "sea" represent if not the physical water?
    I came across this verse for you...….

    EZ 28
    8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

    You see the land mass to start was a circle (Pangea) upon the earth in the midst was a point within this circle which was a body of water this body of water is today contained in the Greek Islands (Patmos probably the eastern edge) wherein below are the gates of Hell. So it took on the pattern of an eye. Note there was a river which did flow from the eye out to the great sea which encompassed the land mass. Every land mass moved from their place after the flood however of course you can logically see of the continents fit together prior.

    John was looking out to the east over the sea from the isle of Patmos wherein the gates of Hell are located (still today). Interesting on the island of Delos opposite of Patmos there is a terrace of lions facing back over the sea to the east towards Patmos built in 600 BC. Lions were protecting the area. Lions we used to ward off evil spirits.

    It's real not ludicrous.

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well it is the newer versions which have the dragon standing on the sea.
    Incorrect, it is the OLDEST versions which have the dragon standing on the sea - that is the Latin and Greek.

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect, it is the OLDEST versions which have the dragon standing on the sea - that is the Latin and Greek.
    Here is a commentary on the Majority text verses.the others.

    There are varying theories on how these ancient texts should be viewed by modern scholars. On one hand, some believe that the most ancient reading should be followed, as it is closest in time to the original. On the other hand, some believe that the majority should rule. Since there are thousands of ancient manuscripts, they believe we should give precedence to the reading that is represented by the most documents. One issue that is sometimes raised against the majority viewpoint is that many of those documents were written very late (9th-15th century). The answer to this is that many of the early papyrus fragments support the majority reading. Additionally, the question has been raised, “If Vaticanus and Sinaiticus represent the original reading of the text, why are there so few manuscripts that follow their lead?” If they were valued by the early church, you would expect to find many copies made from them, covering a wide period of history. What we actually find is a few early manuscripts which agree with them, but then a disappearance of that text type as we progress through history.


    Not to mention the Codex translations have come under scrutiny as possibly being a forgery.

  10. #25

    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    The "sea", the "sands of the sea" on "earth" and the "beast" are not literal. John was in the Spirit (after the doors of heaven were open) when he received the revelation of these things.

    1. The "seal" is symbolic of nations (not geographical nations) of begotten sons in the "world".
    2. "Sands of the sea" symbolically constitute parts of the "sea" blending/sharing estate with the "earth".
    3. The "earth" is symbolic of various tongues in the "world". These are children on earth.
    4. The "beast" is symbolic of the "name" (word, seat and authority) of a deity.


    There is what I call the "Divine Pattern" into which all names, all things and works of God fit. Scriptures must fit and flow within that pattern for divine knowledge, understanding and revelation to manifest and be gained. God reveals His Pattern!
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: "Sea' Rev 13 is the location whereby the beast rises. He rises from UNDER the sea

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Here is a commentary on the Majority text verses.the others.

    There are varying theories on how these ancient texts should be viewed by modern scholars. On one hand, some believe that the most ancient reading should be followed, as it is closest in time to the original. On the other hand, some believe that the majority should rule. Since there are thousands of ancient manuscripts, they believe we should give precedence to the reading that is represented by the most documents. One issue that is sometimes raised against the majority viewpoint is that many of those documents were written very late (9th-15th century). The answer to this is that many of the early papyrus fragments support the majority reading. Additionally, the question has been raised, “If Vaticanus and Sinaiticus represent the original reading of the text, why are there so few manuscripts that follow their lead?” If they were valued by the early church, you would expect to find many copies made from them, covering a wide period of history. What we actually find is a few early manuscripts which agree with them, but then a disappearance of that text type as we progress through history.

    Not to mention the Codex translations have come under scrutiny as possibly being a forgery.
    This is a debate for which you find a lot of various views.
    I have simply highlighted that NOT only the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus have this version, but ALSO the Latin Vulgate and the Alexandrinus.
    You said you would check the Latin and the Latin shows "stetit" which is He stands, but you seem to have decided to ignore this.

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