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Thread: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

  1. #16
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strictly speaking you are correct. The bulk of your posting deals with events of this age, and Israel's diaspora is NOT resolved in this age. I refer to Acts 15:14-17;

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."


    It is clear that the Church must FIRST be built, and when this is complete, only THEN, or AFTER this, will Israel be recovered. And it is noteworthy that the bulk of the prophets speak of this FUTURE time. That which we see in our time is NOT what the bulk of the prophets speak of. But nonetheless this is a work of God. It has a close parallel to the end of the Babylonian captivity.

    At the end of the 70 years predicted for Judah's captivity, the heart of the people was largely indifferent to God's heart. Although God miraculously set events to release Judah and Benjamin, only 2˝% of them actually returned. But why was this return of a few so important? It was to prepare for the coming of Messiah. Our Lord Jesus had to be a Man, and He had to be a Man under Law. So everything that the Law required, had to be in place. The Land had to be occupied by Jews, Jerusalem had to be in place and the Temple had to be in place. These are pillars of the Law, e.g. Deuteronomy 12:11, "Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD." The Remnant of Jews were a pitiful bunch, married to heathen woman, and in need of purifying. They worked under abominable conditions with enemies on all sides. But God was with them, not for their sakes, BUT FOR HIS SAKE.

    The 14th May 1948 is a date of no real import. Jews had been streaming back to Canaan for decades before. That date in 1948 is just the date that the establishment of Israel as a State was made official. Why then has God engineered this state of affairs? AGAIN, it is preparation for the COMING of Messiah. This time though it is not only Israel that will be presented with a Messiah. The Gentiles have ruled the earth, and Israel, since the Babylonian captivity. But the "times of the Gentiles" are about full. The earth stands at the cusp of a dilemma. Shall they continue in the present state of affairs, or shall place be made for a New Government on earth. And notwithstanding the power and money of the USA, Great Britain, Europe, China and Russia, God has decreed that the CENTER of this showdown will take place in dusty Palestine - in Jerusalem. It is to Jerusalem that Islam is drawn, the Roman Church is drawn and the greatest king of the Gentiles ever, the Beast, is drawn - with his armies.

    ISRAEL, JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE ARE NEEDED FOR BOTH MEN AND GOD TO MAKE THEIR DECISION IN THIS AGE.

    And so, what we presently see is pitiful - but nevertheless of God. The Jews of modern Israel are still in unbelief. They are far more pitiful that the virile men under Zerubbabel. Far from putting away their heathen wives and purifying themselves, they host, in Tel Aviv, the largest LGBT parade in Asia every year (250,000 in 2018). They are a democracy with no king from David's line. They Law is abused by both secular and orthodox Jews. The Temple is not standing, so the Law is continually broken. Skulduggery and corruption is rife at all levels of government and business. And the hate for Jesus of Bethlehem is unabated. What we see in our time is far more pitiful than that of Zerbbabel. But the setting is nearly prepared for the Gentiles AND the Jews to make their choice. Will they choose the Beast who carries all the power of Satan, a man who has cheated death and risen from the bottomless pit, or will they choose the Christ, who also cheated death and rose from the bottomless pit, and who carries all the power of God?

    We just need the Temple. It would seem that the best kept secret, which is no secret, is that all the materials and organization for erecting a Temple are ready and could be implemented in a few months. Once this is in place, the stage is set for the cataclysmic end to this age. AND THEN, WHEN THE AGE IS COMPLETE, THAT WHICH THE BULK OF THE PROPHETS PREDICTED CAN TAKE PLACE. When the world's decision for the Beast is shown to be the wrong one, when the rejection of Jesus of Bethlehem is shown to be folly, when a New King with New Government is forced on the remaining population of earth with a righteous rod of iron, then will the gathering of Israel ACCORDING TO THE PROPHETS TAKE PLACE.

    Let it said once and for all. The Words of God through His prophets is sure, and set in concrete. Israel deserve to be obliterated. They have a three and one half thousand year record of stiff-necked Law breaking. They rejected their Messiah and His Kingdom, and murdered Him. And when faced with an imposter - the Beast, they readily embrace him. But whatever Israel have done, there is one overriding fact:- THE WORD OF GOD CANNOT BE OVERTURNED. If God has PROMISED WITH AN OATH to gather the seed of Jacob, EVERY SINGLE ONE WHO EVER LIVED, no matter how long dead and no matter how far away, IT WILL HAPPEN. It is not a matter of HOW - for what is there that Jehovah cannot do? It is not a matter of WHEN - for sooner, or later, it will happen - BECAUSE GOD SAID IT WOULD. Do we puny men look at possibilities that seem impossible? LOOK TO GOD TO WHOM NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
    As usual, your perspective is unambiguous and clear. I will try my best to present my disagreements. Let's start with Acts 15:14-17.

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

    To understand these texts, read from verse 1 - the Pharisees had insisted that Gentile converts must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. As the merit of the injunction was raging, Peter stood up (Acts 15:7) and reminded all that he, too, avoided the Gentiles until God directed him to the home of Cornelius, a Gentile. And how God poured out the Holy Ghost upon this Gentile home. In v-9 he concluded that henceforth, with regards to faith, there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

    Next, we must identify who "Simeon" is what he said about Gentiles that was referenced in v-14 above. According to Luke's Gospel, Simeon was the Priest who blessed Jesus when Mary brought him into the temple for the first time.

    Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

    28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
    29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
    30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
    31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
    32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


    In continuation of the case for Gentiles converts, Simeon was quoted (Acts 15:14) as saying that God visited the Gentiles to take out a people for himself. Undoubtedly, those taken out by God are 'believers' while the rest is lost. Now v-16 says that God will return and build a tabernacle of David that has fallen down and to repair the ruins. This refers to Christ' 2nd Coming to sit on the Throne as king. In this backdrop, the question is, is there anything that alludes to, or supports a future gathering of Israel in the texts? I found none! I agree that the church must first be built and that at the end times when "the fulness of the Gentiles has come in" God will once again focus on Israel. But does this mean that God will cause every Jew comfortably ensconced outside Israel to go home? I see no scriptural support for it.

    God's purpose at that time is to give Israel the last opportunity to accept their Messiah, starting with the coming of the 2Ws. So instead of gathering the diaspora Jews back to Jerusalem (which is what is understood as gathering), God's objective is for Jews wherever they are to turn to Christ.

    It is a fact that a handful of Jews have been living in Palestine since the Balfour Declaration of 1917, however, the import of 1948 is that the UN endorsed the state of Israel as a legal sovereign nation. Therefore, to say that it's of no real import is denying it's significance. For example, although the Balfour Declaration set the pace, it's impact was limited in contrast to the UN endorsement in 1948. I take nothing away from your assessment of Israel's behaviour throughout their turbulent history. My only disagreement is that you speak of their "gathering" in the future tense and I see no scriptural basis for it. As I stated from the start, the gathering is complete - the diaspora can believe and accept their Messiah wherever they are. The option to return to their homeland is now a personal choice rather than a divine intervention.

    I would add that at the eschaton, the Jews who come to faith would naturally be drawn back home since Jerusalem is where the action is and the Lord's presence will be there also. There is no need to hope for another gathering of Israel since God has already done that. Whatever needs to be done e.g. building the temple, etc will not be impeded because the diaspora are yet to come home.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You certainly read it differently. Let's check. the context is forcing the Law onto Gentiles. In this context ...
    Verse 14.
    The Bible says; God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    Kalahari says; The Lord destroyed the kingdom of sin/Satan on the cross

    Verse 15
    "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written." Ephesians 3:1-5 & 9 say that Paul received a mystery, "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." So the thing revealed to the prophets was NOT the Church. One of these prophesies is Amos 9:7-11. Let us see who it is addressed to;

    7 "Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? ...
    8 ... saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 ...
    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old"


    It is abundantly clear who this prophecy is addressed to. "The House of Israel" X 2, and "the House of Jacob". And this House of Israel and Jacob is the one God brought out of Egypt. Added to this, Amos writes, "IS fallen" in the past tense. The Church was not revealed to Amos, and the House of David that had fallen was something that was past tense for Amos who was prophesying between 760 and 755 BC - long after the splitting of the House of Israel that David ruled over in ca. 1,000 BC.

    If you go into a concordance and put David together with the house of Israel, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, it will give you 118 hits. David is NEVER connected with the Church - EVER. Further, our Lord Jesus is Son of David, making Him King of the Jews. Our Lord Jesus is NEVER King of the Church. He is HEAD of the Church.

    There are no grounds to change the meaning of Acts 15:14-17.
    1. Raising up the tabernacle of David that is fallen is not a reference to gathering the Jews scattered all over the world back home. The fallen Tabernacle of David can be described as "everlasting righteousness" or "Kingship". Both of these concepts will be fulfilled by Jesus when he returns. But none, however, is about the gathering of Jews home.

    2. You seem to hold to the argument of a future unification of Israel and Judah? Forgive me if am wrong. But if this is the case, I will say it has already taken place. Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;. Please bear my folly: this woman was the only one I've come across who was identified by her tribe. Now, if someone like her (I'm sure she had a family) from the tribe of Aser, one of the tribes of Israel lived in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, how many more were living in Jerusalem who weren't identified?

    3. On this basis, I posit that the unification has already taken place while some still say it's in the future. Only God knows who's who, so I would bet that modern Israel today is made up of people from both Israel and Judah.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It makes sense to see the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. The people of Israel consist of the Jewish People, who still carry the culture that has been descended from ancient Rabbinic Judaism. This is a contaminated form of original Judaism, from a Christian pov, but it still represents the people who have descended from that population.

    As such, the restoration of the Jewish People to Palestine does indicate the fulfillment of a promised restoration. In Ezekiel it is written that God restores His people in a time when they don't deserve it. And clearly, inasmuch as the Jewish People are still in Rabbinic Judaism it is plain that the current restoration is not what they deserve!

    Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone."

    But I can't see that any of this current restoration of Israel has any value to God unless there is something more. God is not just restoring the Jewish People in their religious corruption. He is restoring them *despite* their religious corruption, in order to *purify them.*

    The purification of the Jews consist of putting their religion right, judging the wicked who are obstinate, and exalting the repentant, who turn to righteousness. We will, I believe, watch this process unfold before our eyes. But the focus of it all will be at Christ's Coming, and just before that, at Armageddon. That is when Israel will be finally broken from her backsliding. The wicked in Israel will be judged, and the righteous will be given rule over Israel. How that all takes place in detail I don't know. But I believe it's coming.
    Of course, I concur that God restored them to uphold his name and promise and not that they deserve it. That said, I should point out that some are confusing Israel's national revival in the end times with that of re-gathering. Gathering as recorded from the Babylonian exile and the events after WWII leading up to 1948 denotes a mass return of people to their homeland. There is no emphasis on whether people believe or not, so it's not about revival.

    In contrast, a revival is a rejection of the unworthy idols or lifestyle that is bereft of Christ to turn to the living God. Now, there's no requirement that the unbelieving Jew must return to Jerusalem before he accepts Christ. The way I see it and I believe the scriptures agree with me too, is that the gathering is done. The diaspora can make their way home at their own discretion - it's now a personal decision as against a mass divine intervention calling them back home.

    In recap, Israel coming en masse to Christ in the end times should not be regarded or confused with 'gathering' which is a return of the diaspora.

  4. #19

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Most of the scriptures you quoted have little or no bearing on the topic. You claimed that Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” is a gathering of Israel. Well, you are not the first and will not be the last to make that unfounded assumption.

    1. For a start, in the NT dispensation, Israel is not the "elect". The elect, sometimes called "saints" refers to believers, the church. Of course, they are made up of the believing Jew and Gentile. But to assert that the term 'elect' is exclusively Israel couldn't be further from the truth.
    2. There is nothing in scripture or any corroboration anywhere that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet call!

    Unfortunately, I'm unable to see how the rest of your remarks relate to the subject.

    ok , well it seems like you have it covered, bless you bro

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    As usual, your perspective is unambiguous and clear. I will try my best to present my disagreements. Let's start with Acts 15:14-17.

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

    To understand these texts, read from verse 1 - the Pharisees had insisted that Gentile converts must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. As the merit of the injunction was raging, Peter stood up (Acts 15:7) and reminded all that he, too, avoided the Gentiles until God directed him to the home of Cornelius, a Gentile. And how God poured out the Holy Ghost upon this Gentile home. In v-9 he concluded that henceforth, with regards to faith, there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

    Next, we must identify who "Simeon" is what he said about Gentiles that was referenced in v-14 above. According to Luke's Gospel, Simeon was the Priest who blessed Jesus when Mary brought him into the temple for the first time.

    Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

    28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
    29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
    30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
    31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
    32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    In my posting I alluded to the matter of the Law that provoked this discussion. Also, I doubt if the Simeon was the Simeon of Luke 2 because it would seem from the text that he was elderly and even asked the Lord for death now that he had seen Messiah. Our Lord was an infant in Luke 2 and Acts 15 is calculated to have been between 15 to 25 years after Christ's death, that is, earliest 45 years after Simeon recognized our Lord Jesus. If Simeon was 70 at Christ's male redemption, he would have been about 115 years old in Acts 15. Peter's name was Simon, and it is used in a slightly different form throughout scripture EXCEPT when Peter introduces himself in 2nd Peter 1:1. There he calls himself Simeon. Added to this, it was Simon Peter who declared that God has visited the gentiles in Acts 11. So the Simeon of Acts 15 was most likely Simon Peter. But let us not dispute over this detail. It does not change the text, nor does it change the context.

    The CONTEXT is the regulation of THREE PEOPLES as far as CIRCUMCISION goes.
    1. The Pharisees led the Jews and insisted upon the Law of Moses
    2. The disciples who discussed this matter where ex-Jews and now, as members of the Church, the New Man without a past (2nd Cor.5:17)
    3. The subject of their discussion was ex-Gentiles who had embraced Christ, now members of the Church and the New Man

    According to this, who do you think was the subject of NO DIFFERENCE in verse 9? The context is clear. There is a massive difference between the Jews and the Church. But between the ex-Jew of the Church and the ex-Gentile of the Church there is no difference - as was demonstrated at the house of Cornelius. The supposed difference, or lack of it PERTAINS SOLELY TO THE CHURCH and not Israel versus the unsaved Gentiles. This leaves Israel - the Pharisees as an UNBELIEVING nation, and it is THIS NATION that is addressed in verses 14-17 as being raised up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    In continuation of the case for Gentiles converts, Simeon was quoted (Acts 15:14) as saying that God visited the Gentiles to take out a people for himself. Undoubtedly, those taken out by God are 'believers' while the rest is lost. Now v-16 says that God will return and build a tabernacle of David that has fallen down and to repair the ruins. This refers to Christ' 2nd Coming to sit on the Throne as king. In this backdrop, the question is, is there anything that alludes to, or supports a future gathering of Israel in the texts? I found none! I agree that the church must first be built and that at the end times when "the fulness of the Gentiles has come in" God will once again focus on Israel. But does this mean that God will cause every Jew comfortably ensconced outside Israel to go home? I see no scriptural support for it.

    God's purpose at that time is to give Israel the last opportunity to accept their Messiah, starting with the coming of the 2Ws. So instead of gathering the diaspora Jews back to Jerusalem (which is what is understood as gathering), God's objective is for Jews wherever they are to turn to Christ.
    For this you gave no scripture. It is thus difficult to answer. But I would not bring the Two Witnesses in as preachers of the gospel. The gospel is a message of salvation, but these Two Witnesses bring JUDGMENT! Our Lord forbade such gospel teaching in Luke 9:51-56.

    55 "But he (Jesus) turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
    56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."


    The Two Witnesses testify in the Temple of Jerusalem. It is the LAW they expound. Israel, just as Daniel predicted, make a pact with the Beast. The Two Witnesses cry against Israel making pacts with Gentiles.

    The gathering of Israel back to their Land cannot be mistaken. The language is plain. In Matthew 24:31 Israel is the only nation in the bible to be scattered to the "four winds", and the only nation to be gathered again from the "four winds" (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9). Added to this, this "gathering" takes place AFTER Christ is revealed from the clouds. Faith cannot be applied when there is SIGHT (Heb.11:1).

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It is a fact that a handful of Jews have been living in Palestine since the Balfour Declaration of 1917, however, the import of 1948 is that the UN endorsed the state of Israel as a legal sovereign nation. Therefore, to say that it's of no real import is denying it's significance. For example, although the Balfour Declaration set the pace, it's impact was limited in contrast to the UN endorsement in 1948. I take nothing away from your assessment of Israel's behaviour throughout their turbulent history. My only disagreement is that you speak of their "gathering" in the future tense and I see no scriptural basis for it. As I stated from the start, the gathering is complete - the diaspora can believe and accept their Messiah wherever they are. The option to return to their homeland is now a personal choice rather than a divine intervention.

    I would add that at the eschaton, the Jews who come to faith would naturally be drawn back home since Jerusalem is where the action is and the Lord's presence will be there also. There is no need to hope for another gathering of Israel since God has already done that. Whatever needs to be done e.g. building the temple, etc will not be impeded because the diaspora are yet to come home.
    OK. Your view is slanted because you see no gathering, even when it is reported so many times in the prophets, starting from Deuteronomy 30:1-5. But let me say that it does not matter a wit if an Israelite wants to be gathered from a foreign land or not. It is all based on God's PROMISE to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is God's honor and God's integrity that is on display. He made a Blood-Covenant with an OATH to Abraham that a nation of his loins would be given this Land. Do you really think that God will enter the Millennial reign of Christ with the reputation that He was UNABLE to fulfill His PROMISE? No wonder He sends His ANGELS to gather Israel from the four winds. Who can resist an angel if one angel can slay 185,000 men of war single handed (2nd Ki.19:35-37). Israel have no choice. They have a KING. He is from the house of David. He will rule from Jerusalem. He gives orders and they are carried out. No seed of Jacob will dare to resist their King!

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. Raising up the tabernacle of David that is fallen is not a reference to gathering the Jews scattered all over the world back home. The fallen Tabernacle of David can be described as "everlasting righteousness" or "Kingship". Both of these concepts will be fulfilled by Jesus when he returns. But none, however, is about the gathering of Jews home.

    2. You seem to hold to the argument of a future unification of Israel and Judah? Forgive me if am wrong. But if this is the case, I will say it has already taken place. Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;. Please bear my folly: this woman was the only one I've come across who was identified by her tribe. Now, if someone like her (I'm sure she had a family) from the tribe of Aser, one of the tribes of Israel lived in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, how many more were living in Jerusalem who weren't identified?

    3. On this basis, I posit that the unification has already taken place while some still say it's in the future. Only God knows who's who, so I would bet that modern Israel today is made up of people from both Israel and Judah.
    You have missed a crucial point. The Covenant regulating David's House is that he, and his Seed, WILL HAVE A THRONE OVER A KINGDOM (2nd Sam.7:13-16). What is a king without a kingdom - NOTHING! And that KINGDOM is UNITED Israel. When Acts 15 talks of raising up the House of David, it IMPLIES JESUS and it IMPLIES THE UNITED KINGDOM OF ISRAEL. I have made "Seed" above with a Capital "S" as our Lord Jesus is of the House of David and it is His KINGDOM that is implied.

    As to Asher, have you not read 2nd Chronicles 30? There, some individuals refused the dictates of the norther kings and went to Jerusalem for the Passover at king Hezekiah's time. Them God spared.

    But brother, consider this. In Hebrews 11:8-13 the whole Israeli posterity of Abraham, "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." This multitude WANTED the Land. They BELIEVED God for the Land - and they died without receiving it. Do you mean that this multitude will not be gathered back from their graves in Egypt? Is your God like this? Will there be no gathering so that Abraham's belief in resurrection was VAIN? These are NOT CHRISTIANS. They "sprang" from Abraham's loins - not from the Holy Spirit.

  7. #22

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    If my understanding is correct, it is through the gathering of Israel that the nations, heathens, gentiles know, the the Lord he is God. That is those other than the ones who God had taken out as a people for his name or for his names sake.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    If my understanding is correct, it is through the gathering of Israel that the nations, heathens, gentiles know, the the Lord he is God. That is those other than the ones who God had taken out as a people for his name or for his names sake.
    Yes, it is Clear to me that in this thread Trivelle has taken a position that denies the Promise God made in Ezekiel 39:25-29 will come to pass.

    Ezekiel: 39:25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob[d] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. Raising up the tabernacle of David that is fallen is not a reference to gathering the Jews scattered all over the world back home. The fallen Tabernacle of David can be described as "everlasting righteousness" or "Kingship". Both of these concepts will be fulfilled by Jesus when he returns. But none, however, is about the gathering of Jews home.

    2. You seem to hold to the argument of a future unification of Israel and Judah? Forgive me if am wrong. But if this is the case, I will say it has already taken place. Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;. Please bear my folly: this woman was the only one I've come across who was identified by her tribe. Now, if someone like her (I'm sure she had a family) from the tribe of Aser, one of the tribes of Israel lived in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, how many more were living in Jerusalem who weren't identified?

    3. On this basis, I posit that the unification has already taken place while some still say it's in the future. Only God knows who's who, so I would bet that modern Israel today is made up of people from both Israel and Judah.
    Nehemiah and Ezra also wrote of the unity of the 12 tribes after the return from Babylonian exile, and how all 12 tribes brought their offerings to Jerusalem, and were all duly represented.

    Representatives of all 12 Tribes are all identified many times generically as the 12, and specifically as tribal members by name(except Reuben), following the Exile Return.

    Joshua also taught following the return from Egyptian exile, that all the land promises to Abraham were fulfilled.

    But all of that said, there is no greater promise for Israel, than what was fulfilled when out of Bethlehem came the ruler from everlasting to everlasting, whose feet stood on the My of Olives, and who was the raised horn of salvation for all of them.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    unto him*shall*the gathering of the people*be. Gen.49:10

    gather*together*in*one*all things*in*Christ
    Eph1:10

    The hour*is*coming,*and*now*is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God Jn.5:25

    Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead Eph.5:16
    I don't know why professing believers in Jesus don't get this.
    Good question. Although the focus is on the gathering of ethnic Israel to their homeland. Not necessarily to Christ...

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Claims like these two Just show your own personal lack of Familiarity with the scriptures.

    First you claim the NT starts before Christ died on the Cross, Second you claim that there is no scripture that mentions the gathering of Israel in relation with a trumpet. Both claims are false, I just hope after you recieve correction you go back and actually re-answer these questions absent these false assertions.
    The question is, who are the "elect" in the NT - Israel or the Church? No one but you, perhaps believes the elect is ethnic Jews. As per when the New Testament started, I believe it started before Jesus died. At the end of the OT God told Israel that they will experience a famine of his word. God was true to his word and was silent for 400 years. But he broke his silence when the NT started, i.e. when he sent angel Gabriel to Zacharia to announce the birth of John the Baptist.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In my posting I alluded to the matter of the Law that provoked this discussion. Also, I doubt if the Simeon was the Simeon of Luke 2 because it would seem from the text that he was elderly and even asked the Lord for death now that he had seen Messiah. Our Lord was an infant in Luke 2 and Acts 15 is calculated to have been between 15 to 25 years after Christ's death, that is, earliest 45 years after Simeon recognized our Lord Jesus. If Simeon was 70 at Christ's male redemption, he would have been about 115 years old in Acts 15. Peter's name was Simon, and it is used in a slightly different form throughout scripture EXCEPT when Peter introduces himself in 2nd Peter 1:1. There he calls himself Simeon. Added to this, it was Simon Peter who declared that God has visited the gentiles in Acts 11. So the Simeon of Acts 15 was most likely Simon Peter. But let us not dispute over this detail. It does not change the text, nor does it change the context.

    The CONTEXT is the regulation of THREE PEOPLES as far as CIRCUMCISION goes.
    1. The Pharisees led the Jews and insisted upon the Law of Moses
    2. The disciples who discussed this matter where ex-Jews and now, as members of the Church, the New Man without a past (2nd Cor.5:17)
    3. The subject of their discussion was ex-Gentiles who had embraced Christ, now members of the Church and the New Man

    According to this, who do you think was the subject of NO DIFFERENCE in verse 9? The context is clear. There is a massive difference between the Jews and the Church. But between the ex-Jew of the Church and the ex-Gentile of the Church there is no difference - as was demonstrated at the house of Cornelius. The supposed difference, or lack of it PERTAINS SOLELY TO THE CHURCH and not Israel versus the unsaved Gentiles. This leaves Israel - the Pharisees as an UNBELIEVING nation, and it is THIS NATION that is addressed in verses 14-17 as being raised up.
    1. Peter has always been alternately addressed as 'Simon' a clear distinction with Simeon. But I agree it's not a major point of contention.
    2. The Apostles (Jewish converts) recognised that on the matter of faith in Christ, there's no difference between them [Jews] and Gentile converts according to Acts 15:9.
    3. I think we are saying the same thing. For there's no difference between the believing Jew/Gentile.
    4. Yes, verses 14-17 addresses the unbelieving, but not only Israel according to v-17. These texts speak about the unbelieving coming to faith in Christ - it has nothing to do with a gathering of Israel to Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For this you gave no scripture. It is thus difficult to answer. But I would not bring the Two Witnesses in as preachers of the gospel. The gospel is a message of salvation, but these Two Witnesses bring JUDGMENT! Our Lord forbade such gospel teaching in Luke 9:51-56.

    55 "But he (Jesus) turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
    56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."


    The Two Witnesses testify in the Temple of Jerusalem. It is the LAW they expound. Israel, just as Daniel predicted, make a pact with the Beast. The Two Witnesses cry against Israel making pacts with Gentiles.

    The gathering of Israel back to their Land cannot be mistaken. The language is plain. In Matthew 24:31 Israel is the only nation in the bible to be scattered to the "four winds", and the only nation to be gathered again from the "four winds" (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9). Added to this, this "gathering" takes place AFTER Christ is revealed from the clouds. Faith cannot be applied when there is SIGHT (Heb.11:1).
    The word used for the 2Ws is "prophesy" (Rev 11:3 KJV). It is debatable whether their ministry is that of judgment or Gospel to encourage Israel to accept their Messiah. My bet is on the latter. With regards to Israel making a pact with the Beast, it's just an assumption with no solid scriptural support. Dan 9:27 speaks of a covenant with "many" for one week. As you know, who the "many" represent is still moot. It may well be Israel or a combination of Israel and others, who knows?

    Unfortunately, the passages you provided as support for a future gathering of Israel have already been fulfilled. The elect in Matt 24:31 are ethnic Israel, but the church. The reserved or elect of Israel that Paul spoke of in Rom 11:4-6 are believers. And as believers in Christ, they are part of the church. Therefore, there's no basis to assert that Israel is the elect. There are believing and unbelieving Israel. If believing Israel (part of the church) is not the elect, how can the unbelieving, be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Your view is slanted because you see no gathering, even when it is reported so many times in the prophets, starting from Deuteronomy 30:1-5. But let me say that it does not matter a wit if an Israelite wants to be gathered from a foreign land or not. It is all based on God's PROMISE to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is God's honor and God's integrity that is on display. He made a Blood-Covenant with an OATH to Abraham that a nation of his loins would be given this Land. Do you really think that God will enter the Millennial reign of Christ with the reputation that He was UNABLE to fulfill His PROMISE? No wonder He sends His ANGELS to gather Israel from the four winds. Who can resist an angel if one angel can slay 185,000 men of war single handed (2nd Ki.19:35-37). Israel have no choice. They have a KING. He is from the house of David. He will rule from Jerusalem. He gives orders and they are carried out. No seed of Jacob will dare to resist their King!
    God cannot lie. What you are not seeing is that he has already fulfilled his promise of gathering Israel to settle permanently on the land of their ancestors (Ezek 37:25). And that is evidently the modern nation of Israel. As I stated on the OP, those still outside their homeland today are no more exiles, but the diaspora.

    Deut 30:1-3 was fulfilled prior to the return of the Babylonian exiles. In verse 1 we see two options: a curse for disobeying God and the other blessing.

    Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

    Note that the text says they will recall *this warning" [call them to mind] when they're in exile? They will sort of reflect on how they got to be exiled in the first place? Let's see v-2.

    Deut 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

    The devout among the exiled captives fulfilled verses 1-2 above. I won't copy and paste a whole chapter, but if you read Daniel 9 you will see that Daniel and some other righteous Jews acknowledged the sins of their people and interceded for God's forgiveness and mercy for their people. The scriptures have records of other pious Jews also who were penitent and prayed constantly for God's mercy and intervention in exile, e.g. Meshach, Shadrach, Abednego. These are the ones mentioned by name, no doubt there are more.

    For a prophecy to be fulfilled, God doesn't require the agreement or participation of all and sundry. I'll give you a couple of examples: recall God's exchange with Abraham in Gen 18 about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham pleaded with God repeatedly to spare the city and God responded that if Abraham could find a few righteous people, he would forebear. Starting from a request for 50 righteous people, we see a decrease down to 5, yet that number could not be found.

    In my second example, God sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of impending judgment and they [Nineveh] subsequently repented and were spared.

    Now, the moral of my story (Sodom and Gomorrah and Nineveh) is that EVERYBODY need not participate for what God says will happen to be fulfilled. Example, if 5 righteous people were found in S&G and their city spared, one might be mistaken into believing the whole city was righteous. The same applies to Nineveh. We are told that they repented. However, we don't need a soothsayer to figure out that in a city of hundreds to thousands of people, not everyone will actually comply with the instructions. Yet the obedience of a few is sufficient to sway God's mercy on them.

    In the same way, the few among the exiled Jews who reflected on their sins and interceded for their people fulfilled what God said about them calling their errors to mind in the nations where they are scattered and subsequently turning to God. God has done what he promised - Israel is not only restored but thriving as prophecied. Some are confusing their national revival with gathering which are different concepts. I believe in their end-time national revival (Zech 12:10). But just as today's believer's (Messianic Jews) are everywhere, there's no requirement that those in the end-time must be in Jerusalem to accept Christ. Although, many will return home on their own accord since the action will be in Jerualem in those days.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    If my understanding is correct, it is through the gathering of Israel that the nations, heathens, gentiles know, the the Lord he is God. That is those other than the ones who God had taken out as a people for his name or for his names sake.
    What insight! The blessing to the Nations through the Church is the giving of the Holy Spirit. But few avail of this (Gal.3:14). But when Israel is restored then THE REST of men will seek the Lord!

    16 "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles
    , upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

    Acts 15:16-17.

    In the Church age the believers are called "little flock" because they are so few. In the Millennium THE RESIDUE - the rest of men - the Gentiles, will seek the Lord.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. Peter has always been alternately addressed as 'Simon' a clear distinction with Simeon. But I agree it's not a major point of contention.
    2. The Apostles (Jewish converts) recognised that on the matter of faith in Christ, there's no difference between them [Jews] and Gentile converts according to Acts 15:9.
    3. I think we are saying the same thing. For there's no difference between the believing Jew/Gentile.
    4. Yes, verses 14-17 addresses the unbelieving, but not only Israel according to v-17. These texts speak about the unbelieving coming to faith in Christ - it has nothing to do with a gathering of Israel to Jerusalem.



    The word used for the 2Ws is "prophesy" (Rev 11:3 KJV). It is debatable whether their ministry is that of judgment or Gospel to encourage Israel to accept their Messiah. My bet is on the latter. With regards to Israel making a pact with the Beast, it's just an assumption with no solid scriptural support. Dan 9:27 speaks of a covenant with "many" for one week. As you know, who the "many" represent is still moot. It may well be Israel or a combination of Israel and others, who knows?

    Unfortunately, the passages you provided as support for a future gathering of Israel have already been fulfilled. The elect in Matt 24:31 are ethnic Israel, but the church. The reserved or elect of Israel that Paul spoke of in Rom 11:4-6 are believers. And as believers in Christ, they are part of the church. Therefore, there's no basis to assert that Israel is the elect. There are believing and unbelieving Israel. If believing Israel (part of the church) is not the elect, how can the unbelieving, be?



    God cannot lie. What you are not seeing is that he has already fulfilled his promise of gathering Israel to settle permanently on the land of their ancestors (Ezek 37:25). And that is evidently the modern nation of Israel. As I stated on the OP, those still outside their homeland today are no more exiles, but the diaspora.

    Deut 30:1-3 was fulfilled prior to the return of the Babylonian exiles. In verse 1 we see two options: a curse for disobeying God and the other blessing.

    Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

    Note that the text says they will recall *this warning" [call them to mind] when they're in exile? They will sort of reflect on how they got to be exiled in the first place? Let's see v-2.

    Deut 30:2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

    The devout among the exiled captives fulfilled verses 1-2 above. I won't copy and paste a whole chapter, but if you read Daniel 9 you will see that Daniel and some other righteous Jews acknowledged the sins of their people and interceded for God's forgiveness and mercy for their people. The scriptures have records of other pious Jews also who were penitent and prayed constantly for God's mercy and intervention in exile, e.g. Meshach, Shadrach, Abednego. These are the ones mentioned by name, no doubt there are more.

    For a prophecy to be fulfilled, God doesn't require the agreement or participation of all and sundry. I'll give you a couple of examples: recall God's exchange with Abraham in Gen 18 about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Abraham pleaded with God repeatedly to spare the city and God responded that if Abraham could find a few righteous people, he would forebear. Starting from a request for 50 righteous people, we see a decrease down to 5, yet that number could not be found.

    In my second example, God sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them of impending judgment and they [Nineveh] subsequently repented and were spared.

    Now, the moral of my story (Sodom and Gomorrah and Nineveh) is that EVERYBODY need not participate for what God says will happen to be fulfilled. Example, if 5 righteous people were found in S&G and their city spared, one might be mistaken into believing the whole city was righteous. The same applies to Nineveh. We are told that they repented. However, we don't need a soothsayer to figure out that in a city of hundreds to thousands of people, not everyone will actually comply with the instructions. Yet the obedience of a few is sufficient to sway God's mercy on them.

    In the same way, the few among the exiled Jews who reflected on their sins and interceded for their people fulfilled what God said about them calling their errors to mind in the nations where they are scattered and subsequently turning to God. God has done what he promised - Israel is not only restored but thriving as prophecied. Some are confusing their national revival with gathering which are different concepts. I believe in their end-time national revival (Zech 12:10). But just as today's believer's (Messianic Jews) are everywhere, there's no requirement that those in the end-time must be in Jerusalem to accept Christ. Although, many will return home on their own accord since the action will be in Jerualem in those days.
    The reason that the "gathering" of Israel has not yet been fulfilled is that millions of Jews died without entering their Promised Land. You have only included about half the presently LIVING. What about Abraham himself? What about Isaac and Jacob? What about the Israelites of three generations who died in Egypt and the 600,000 men of the fourth generation who fell in the wilderness? What about every Israeli child who was born in exile? What of those murdered by Herod?
    1. The LIVING Israelis have not yet been gathered to their Land. Less than half of them returned themselves and were not gathered by angels
    2. The DEAD Israelis of 2,700 years, who died in Assyria, Babylon and the nations of ALL the world, have neither been resurrected, nor gathered to their Land.

    The Covenant of Promise is to Jacob and his SEED (Gen.28:13, 35:12) - every single man and woman that ever is in the line of Jacob, from Abraham to the last lawless Israelite who embraces the Beast. The only condition is CIRCUMCISION.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The reason that the "gathering" of Israel has not yet been fulfilled is that millions of Jews died without entering their Promised Land. You have only included about half the presently LIVING. What about Abraham himself? What about Isaac and Jacob? What about the Israelites of three generations who died in Egypt and the 600,000 men of the fourth generation who fell in the wilderness? What about every Israeli child who was born in exile? What of those murdered by Herod?
    1. The LIVING Israelis have not yet been gathered to their Land. Less than half of them returned themselves and were not gathered by angels
    2. The DEAD Israelis of 2,700 years, who died in Assyria, Babylon and the nations of ALL the world, have neither been resurrected, nor gathered to their Land.

    The Covenant of Promise is to Jacob and his SEED (Gen.28:13, 35:12) - every single man and woman that ever is in the line of Jacob, from Abraham to the last lawless Israelite who embraces the Beast. The only condition is CIRCUMCISION.
    You confuse me or rather, I seem to have completely misunderstood your argument. I have always thought that by "gathering" you are referring to the living Israeli's?

    This is how I understand it myself:

    a. Every devout DEAD Hebrew/Israeli from Abraham to those that will fall at the hands of the beast will certainly rise to inherit the promised land. This has never been a contention for me.
    b. Every wicked DEAD Hebrew/Israeli from Cain to those that will fall in the end times will resurrect to condemnation and will not partake from the land promises.

    c. The next category is the living: they are all along my primary focus for this thread. We have a modern and vibrant nation of Israel living in their ancestral land. I view the ones outside their homeland today as the diaspora rather than exiles since the impediments barring them to return home no longer exists. Now, some argue that the diaspora will be gathered to the homeland 'Israel' before the Lord returns. I disagree with this view as I believe that the gathering of the living has already occurred.

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