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Thread: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

  1. #46
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We have very different understandings of these important doctrines. I'm unable to accept your interpretation of the lake of fire.
    Thank you for your honest reply. May I ask you to read my posing #45. You do not have to comment on it, but in it I answer objections that you agreed to. Go well and God bless.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    [...]

    Why not reread my posting with clean slate and take it sentence for sentence without a preconceived idea.
    I did and I responded without a preconceived idea, you just see it differently, which you may.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I did and I responded without a preconceived idea, you just see it differently, which you may.

    Aristarkos
    OK. Your response is noted.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Well the regathering of Israel is the physical promise that God made to Abraham. That means a restoration of a physical, living people from all 12 tribes of Israel. The 10 "lost" tribes are still lost to themselves. Once God gives them the Holy Spirit and carries out His plan, they will know all about it.
    Fortunately, you are not one of those who claim it will be fulfilled in the resurrection. That said, I reiterate that the modern state of Israel today, comprises of both Israel and Judah.

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    Cool Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Fortunately, you are not one of those who claim it will be fulfilled in the resurrection. That said, I reiterate that the modern state of Israel today, comprises of both Israel and Judah.
    And you are completely wrong. I am of Judah myself, and What comprises the modern state of Israel is from the Southern Kingdom only. That is Judah, Simeon, part of Benjamin and part of Levi.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    As usual, you ticked all the right boxes. Personally, I don't see Israel's future national revival that will have those that will be saved grafted back into the Olive Tree as a "regathering" of Israel. Understandably, there is a diverse understanding of what the gathering of Israel entails. In this regards, the gathering in my view is the "unification" of living Judah and Israel as one "people/nation" as it was under David. This is totally different from their revival that turns them back to Christ.

    Now, it is my view that their physical unification has already taken place. No one can prove that ALL the Jews in Israel today is from Judah. Scripturally, if only a handful of those from Israel merges with those from Judah - the prophecy is fulfilled. Therefore, what I believe remains to be fulfilled is their spiritual revival back to their Messiah. As you aptly put it, that will come when Judaism is finally proscribed (Zech 12:10).
    We may be pretty close on our views. The unification of Israel took place, in a sense, back during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, since this is what ended the political division of Israel--both kingdoms, north and south, were defeated by foreign adversaries. So when Israel was regathered around Jerusalem, led by Judah, the gathering of all tribes to this new entity, during the Persian Empire, constituted a reunification.

    Some have pointed out to me that the reunification of Israel seems to take place in the time of the Messianic Age. I think that is true because the restored State of Israel, which has already come into existence since 1948, will ultimately be spiritually restored, as you suggested. That will only take place when Christ returns, because it is at this general time that Israel's obstinacy will be broken, and judged. Those in Israel who survive this judgment will be willing to convert to Christianity.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    And you are completely wrong. I am of Judah myself, and What comprises the modern state of Israel is from the Southern Kingdom only. That is Judah, Simeon, part of Benjamin and part of Levi.
    I agree with you brother, he is completely wrong, it is Key that in Rev 7:4-8 lists all the house of Israel separately and by name, I know based on Trivallee belief about Israel that he believes all 144k that will be sealed today self identify themselves as "Jews", but I do not believe this is the case even prophesys like Zech 12-14 which Trivellee quotes but doesn't understand makes clear that at the coming of Jesus the tribe of Judah (the Jews) and the House of David have separate roles. And as the prophecy states

    Zech 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

    The bible constantly makes a distinctions between the house of Judah and the rest personally I think this distinction is important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    And you are completely wrong. I am of Judah myself, and What comprises the modern state of Israel is from the Southern Kingdom only. That is Judah, Simeon, part of Benjamin and part of Levi.
    I agree with you brother, he is completely wrong, it is Key that in Rev 7:4-8 lists all the house of Israel separately and by name, I know based on Trivallee belief about Israel that he believes all 144k that will be sealed today self identify themselves as "Jews", but I do not believe this is the case even prophesys like Zech 12-14 which Trivellee quotes but doesn't understand makes clear that at the coming of Jesus the tribe of Judah (the Jews) and the House of David have separate roles. And as the prophecy states

    Zech 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

    The bible constantly makes a distinctions between the house of Judah and the rest personally I think this distinction is important!

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    And you are completely wrong. I am of Judah myself, and What comprises the modern state of Israel is from the Southern Kingdom only. That is Judah, Simeon, part of Benjamin and part of Levi.
    And you know that for sure?

    In Luke 2:36 we see the prophetess Anna from the tribe of Asser living in Jerusalem with her family. The consequential inference is, how many others from the supposed lost 10 tribes were living in plain sight with their brethren from Judah from the time of the 1st advent till today?

    I see the purported future unification of living Israel as merely a fantasy as God who cannot lie has already done it. Yet in our poor understanding of the fulfilment of scripture, we hold out hope in an illusion. I often wonder how many times God shakes his head and smiles at our ignorance and folly?

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    And you know that for sure?

    In Luke 2:36 we see the prophetess Anna from the tribe of Asser living in Jerusalem with her family. The consequential inference is, how many others from the supposed lost 10 tribes were living in plain sight with their brethren from Judah from the time of the 1st advent till today?

    I see the purported future unification of living Israel as merely a fantasy as God who cannot lie has already done it. Yet in our poor understanding of the fulfilment of scripture, we hold out hope in an illusion. I often wonder how many times God shakes his head and smiles at our ignorance and folly?
    The emphasis, during the Persian restoration, was on the restoration of Israel to the Law of Moses, which was in the country of Judah. Obviously, the priests were a necessary part of this restoration. Nowhere does this restoration exclude Hebrews from the other tribes, who had been deported and wanted to return. The thought only was to keep out polluting pagan influences.

    On the contrary, Israel continued to be represented by all 12 tribes, as indicated in the worship itself. Not only so but Israelites in other countries continued to return for the festivals. The idea that Hebrews from all tribes could not or did not return at all is ludicrous, in my thinking. The focus was purely on the restoration of the territory around the temple. All tribes were invited to worship there.

    Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.

    Eze 47.13 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    We may be pretty close on our views. The unification of Israel took place, in a sense, back during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, since this is what ended the political division of Israel--both kingdoms, north and south, were defeated by foreign adversaries. So when Israel was regathered around Jerusalem, led by Judah, the gathering of all tribes to this new entity, during the Persian Empire, constituted a reunification.

    Some have pointed out to me that the reunification of Israel seems to take place in the time of the Messianic Age. I think that is true because the restored State of Israel, which has already come into existence since 1948, will ultimately be spiritually restored, as you suggested. That will only take place when Christ returns, because it is at this general time that Israel's obstinacy will be broken, and judged. Those in Israel who survive this judgment will be willing to convert to Christianity.
    Since we are congruous about the unification of 'living Israel and Judah', I'd like you and anyone else objective enough to consider the following. If the purported 10 tribes were still "lost" and not united with those of Judah at the time of Christ, then in all good conscience, no one can blame them (Israel's 10 tribes) for rejecting Christ! This, of course, means that the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians and the few other minorities during the 1st advent whom Jesus flayed and admonished for rejecting him were ALL devoid of those from ISRAEL!

    Yet, I doubt if anyone believes Paul was in error when he made the under copied statement?

    1 Thess 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! (70 AD)!

    1. The blame for the death of the prophets falls on both Israel and Judah.
    2. Is there anyone who will read v-15 and conclude that Paul was referring to Judah alone even though he called them "Jews"?
    3. Let's face the truth if Israel is indeed not yet unified with Judah, then they can't be responsible for Paul's accusations above, can they?
    4. This also brings us to the crunch question regarding Romans 11. Since Israel was not united with Judah at the time of Christ and didn't receive Jesus Christ' message of salvation: could they be accused of rejecting him and consequently "broken off/cast away" from the tree/root which is Christ as posited by Paul?

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Since we are congruous about the unification of 'living Israel and Judah', I'd like you and anyone else objective enough to consider the following. If the purported 10 tribes were still "lost" and not united with those of Judah at the time of Christ, then in all good conscience, no one can blame them (Israel's 10 tribes) for rejecting Christ! This, of course, means that the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians and the few other minorities during the 1st advent whom Jesus flayed and admonished for rejecting him were ALL devoid of those from ISRAEL!

    Yet, I doubt if anyone believes Paul was in error when he made the under copied statement?

    1 Thess 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! (70 AD)!

    1. The blame for the death of the prophets falls on both Israel and Judah.
    2. Is there anyone who will read v-15 and conclude that Paul was referring to Judah alone even though he called them "Jews"?
    3. Let's face the truth if Israel is indeed not yet unified with Judah, then they can't be responsible for Paul's accusations above, can they?
    4. This also brings us to the crunch question regarding Romans 11. Since Israel was not united with Judah at the time of Christ and didn't receive Jesus Christ' message of salvation: could they be accused of rejecting him and consequently "broken off/cast away" from the tree/root which is Christ as posited by Paul?
    I have some trouble going through your questions/statements on this thread, probably because I haven't entertained this kind of confusion. I'm not averse to dealing with it though. I see Israel and Judah as one people, since the deportations and restoration, as I indicated. They are not 1) lost tribes of Israel, and 2) Judah. They are all now integrated into Judah, and are all together "the Jews."

    They were all, as a nation, guilty of rejecting Jesus, with the exception of a small remnant that remained loyal to Jesus. Most of those who had followed Jesus in Israel abandoned him at or before the cross. None of this means that Israel could not produce children in future generations who could convert to Christianity. All through the generations Jews have indeed converted to Christianity. It's just that the *nation* has remained stubbornly defiant, as a people, to Christian conversion.

    I do believe a time is coming soon when Israel, as a nation, will be upended, going through severe judgment. Probably the majority will be judged and die. But the remnant that survives Armageddon will be open to national conversion to Christianity. That is how I believe the prophecies will be fulfilled.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Lake of Fire is used interchangeably with "the Second Death", "destruction" and/or "perdition". Vine tells us that the Greek word we render "perdition" means "extreme lack of well being". Our Lord Jesus alludes to it twice. Once in Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna", and once in His own agony in Gethsemane. He says there, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me" (Matt.26:38; Mk.14:34), and His Body sweated blood. It is not commonly taught because we Christians focus on the bodily death of Christ, but our Lord, in oreder to pay the full price of all sins must experience the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna of Matthew 10:28. So, while Hades is a PLACE (of the souls of dead men), Gehenna, or "perdition" is a state of exquisite suffering of a LIVING MAN.

    Thus, those of Daniel 12:2 are resurrected, as the verse says, but their STATE is awful. They are LIVING, and living in Canaan, but, as Isaiah 66:24 assures us, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Have you ever considered that to "look upon" these men in psychological and physical agony, they would have to be your neighbor? In this way, God can BOTH fulfill His Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by raising and gathering ALL Israel who ever lived, and yet meet out just punishment.

    The Kingdom of God is when God is acknowledged and obeyed as King of a certain sphere. Thus, when Christ returns and ousts "the Prince of this world", binds him in the Abyss for a thousand years and institutes God's rule on earth - THAT is the Kingdom of God spoken of in Luke 13:27-28. It is the UNIVERSAL Kingdom of God filling the whole earth as predicted by Daniel. Israel is only part of this Kingdom.

    We almost agree here. If Anna was an Asheritess, which she was, she would have been resident in Judea, or even Jerusalem her whole life. Those of the ten northern Tribes that missed the deportation of Assyria would have been among those carried off to Babylon, and among those who returned 70 years later. Anna's ancestors would have been living in and around Jerusalem since about 530 BC.

    Consider this. The Promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for the Land of Canaan was to their SEED. Every single person who proceeded from the loins of Jacob is included. Ezekiel 37 predicts TWO things: (1) The RESURRECTION of every Israelite who ever lived, and (2) The uniting of all these people into one nation in their Land. According to 1st Corinthians 15:23 this resurrection takes place ONLY at Christ0s Coming, and Daniel 12:2 agrees. There the resurrection is only after the Great Tribulation. But it is even easier than that. Among the SEED of Jacob (Israel) are all the prophets starting with Moses, all the Kings starting with Saul, and all the characters of the Old Testament who were Israelites. If Ezekiel 37 was accomplished you would be able to see, touch, visit and talk to them all. In anticipation of this coming glorious event, Jeremiah bought a piece of Israel. If Ezekiel 37 is accomplished, Jeremiah would be found on his possession.

    What of the LIVING of Matthew 25:31-46? They are those who will be judged on how they treated a Christian or a Jew during the Great Tribulation.

    My answer to your first point above should be enough. But I will address "eternal life". According to John 3:15 and John 20:30-31, there is only ONE WAY to obtain eternal life. That is, BELIEF in Jesus, His Person and His Work. ANY MAN, and I repeat, ANY MAN who does not exercise faith in, and call upon the Lord Jesus IN FAITH, CANNOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Israel REFUSED Jesus while he was on earth, and Israel continue to REFUSE Jesus via the gospel. By the time Paul wrote Romans God had concluded ALL Israel in UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32). Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as, "... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Israel remain in UNBELIEF until they SEE our Lord Jesus break forth from the clouds over Mount Olives. At the moment of SIGHT, FAITH IS NO MORE for it is NOT "UNSEEN". Israel can NEVER partake of eternal life. ONLY BELIEVERS CAN HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

    This does not mean that an Israelite cannot enjoy life in the Good Land. The Old Testament prophets are full of the grand life of Israel restored to their Land and to God's favor. But to possess the intrinsic divine life and nature of God is only gotten by FAITH in what is UNSEEN.

    I would like to close by making the observation that in many things we have come closer to agreement.
    I always enjoy your posts even when I disagree with them as unfortunately is mostly the case here. Your in-depth insight is commendable; right or wrong it shows you actually study the scriptures. Something worth emulating from those whose constant response is no more than one-liners...

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The emphasis, during the Persian restoration, was on the restoration of Israel to the Law of Moses, which was in the country of Judah. Obviously, the priests were a necessary part of this restoration. Nowhere does this restoration exclude Hebrews from the other tribes, who had been deported and wanted to return. The thought only was to keep out polluting pagan influences.

    On the contrary, Israel continued to be represented by all 12 tribes, as indicated in the worship itself. Not only so but Israelites in other countries continued to return for the festivals. The idea that Hebrews from all tribes could not or did not return at all is ludicrous, in my thinking. The focus was purely on the restoration of the territory around the temple. All tribes were invited to worship there.

    Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.

    Eze 47.13 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph.
    What then do you think of Ezra 4? It has been explained to Trivalle on multiple occasions that the term Jew *in no place* refers exclusively to the tribe of Judah but instead also compromised the house of Levi and Benjamin.

    Still when I read Ezra 4 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the returned exiles were building a temple to the Lord, the God of Israel, 2 they approached Zerubbabel and the heads of fathers' houses and said to them, “Let us build with you, for we worship your God as you do, and we have been sacrificing to him ever since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assyria who brought us here.” 3 But Zerubbabel, Jeshua, and the rest of the heads of fathers' houses in Israel said to them, “You have nothing to do with us in building a house to our God; but we alone will build to the Lord, the God of Israel, as King Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us.”

    4 Then the people of the land discouraged the people of Judah and made them afraid to build 5 and bribed counselors against them to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

    Why do you think Judah and Benjamin are mentioned specifically in this passage?

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have some trouble going through your questions/statements on this thread, probably because I haven't entertained this kind of confusion. I'm not averse to dealing with it though. I see Israel and Judah as one people, since the deportations and restoration, as I indicated. They are not 1) lost tribes of Israel, and 2) Judah. They are all now integrated into Judah, and are all together "the Jews."
    I apologise if there's ambiguity in my position. What you stated above is actually what I believe, 100%. I was rather trying (an not succeeding evidently) to showcase that those who disagree are wrong. I don't suppose you've heard the phrase "lost tribes of Israel" commonly bandied about by those who claim *these lost 10 tribes* will be united with Judah in the future?

    So in using the term "lost tribe and Judah" I was merely using terms those in dissent will recognise in order to highlight their error.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    They were all, as a nation, guilty of rejecting Jesus, with the exception of a small remnant that remained loyal to Jesus. Most of those who had followed Jesus in Israel abandoned him at or before the cross. None of this means that Israel could not produce children in future generations who could convert to Christianity. All through the generations Jews have indeed converted to Christianity. It's just that the *nation* has remained stubbornly defiant, as a people, to Christian conversion.
    You have simply painted the *unification* in brighter colours in ways I did not achieve. It, therefore, behoves those still hoping for a future unification to explain why they believe you are wrong? Furthermore, they must prove that none of the 12 disciples and the extended number of apostles in the 1st century were NOT from Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do believe a time is coming soon when Israel, as a nation, will be upended, going through severe judgment. Probably the majority will be judged and die. But the remnant that survives Armageddon will be open to national conversion to Christianity. That is how I believe the prophecies will be fulfilled.
    1. We have already agreed and established that Israel's spiritual revival will occur in the future. Although, not all will embrace it and will consequently die for it.
    2. However, your use of the plural in *prophecies* to conclude that "That is how I believe the prophecies will be fulfilled" is contradictory and confusing to anyone following your logic from your previous posts in this discourse. For me, to maintain clarity, I have always separated the unification of the living which we have agreed to be ALREADY fulfilled from their FUTURE spiritual revival. This is what you have not done and that's the problem.
    3. So when you argue in one hand that the unification of the living has occurred and then went on to lump it together with their yet to be fulfilled future coming to Christ by saying: these prophecies will be fulfilled, it negates your earlier statement that the latter has been fulfilled.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    What then do you think of Ezra 4? It has been explained to Trivalle on multiple occasions that the term Jew *in no place* refers exclusively to the tribe of Judah but instead also compromised the house of Levi and Benjamin.

    Still when I read Ezra 4 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the returned exiles were building a temple to the Lord, the God of Israel, 2 they approached Zerubbabel and the heads of fathers' houses and said to them, “Let us build with you, for we worship your God as you do, and we have been sacrificing to him ever since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assyria who brought us here.” 3 But Zerubbabel, Jeshua, and the rest of the heads of fathers' houses in Israel said to them, “You have nothing to do with us in building a house to our God; but we alone will build to the Lord, the God of Israel, as King Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us.”

    4 Then the people of the land discouraged the people of Judah and made them afraid to build 5 and bribed counselors against them to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.

    Why do you think Judah and Benjamin are mentioned specifically in this passage?
    You should at least spell my daughter's name {TRIVALEE} which I use on this Board correctly. It is not Trivalle.
    Thank you and God bless.

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