Page 1 of 14 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 210

Thread: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,532
    Blog Entries
    13

    The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    I previously believed the doctrine of a future gathering of Israel to their homeland. However, I have recently been confronted with thoughts that have forced me to question that general belief. Among the various scriptures cited by those who hold out to a future gathering of Israel include, but not limited to Deut 30:3-4, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 37:20-28, etc.

    I have diligently studied these scriptures and more but can only conclude that there is no more gathering of Israel as popularly believed. I believe that the first gathering was fulfilled when the Babylonian captives returned. The second was fulfiled in 1948 after Israel's "dry bone" experience according to Ezekiel.

    Ezek 37:10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

    In my view, the Jews living outside Israel today are not exiles, but the diaspora. Although their forebears were exiled, their forced exile ended in 1948. Exile, by definition, is a forceful removal from one's homeland or, an unpalatable situation that forces one to willfully remove himself from his homeland for safety elsewhere. None of these conditions exists today in Israel's polity, hence my audacious claim.

    Our infallible God has fulfilled his promise of:


    1. Restoring them to their homeland and prospering them too.
    2. In restoring them, he also caused them to be one nation again. The modern state of Israel comprises of Israel and Judah.
    3. If there is a minimum of 2 people from the supposed lost tribe of "Israel" in the population of modern Israel today, then prophetically God's promise of unification is fulfilled!
    4. The promised establishment of a new covenant with them is also in place, stating from Pentecost (Heb 10:12-18).
    5. God said he will place them forever in the land their ancestors lived (Ezek 37:25). I don't see the modern state of Israel going anywhere until Jesus returns, do you?
    6. And those that'll live there forever denote the faithful in Christ - both the living and the dead that will rise to live there in the MK and beyond.


    I'm not looking to write a lengthy post as I'm sure every reader now gets my drift with this little. I'm sure my position will be like a red flag to a bull to those who still cherish another miracles gathering of Israel in the end-times. So what do ya think?

  2. #2

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Have you considered that this earth and everything in it will be destroyed?

    “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:7, 10, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    if this present earth and all its works are to be destroyed, then the final gathering of Israel, is to happen here

    “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
    **Mark‬ *13:27‬ *KJV‬‬


    and they will be gathered to the Jerusalem which is above and comes down from heaven when the new things are established. Remember how many times this was the promise regarding when he gathered them " they would be his people and he would be thier God among them?

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    which was what he kept saying all along after he gathered them from the far reaches of the earth which he sent them. It's not those children of Abraham by blood , but those born of the spirit who are the elect.

    “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
    **Romans‬ *9:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see the thought I'm presenting?

    Ishmael was the son of a bondmaid, which was Sarai's will, this represents the natural descendants of Abraham, enjoined to the first covenant based on mans effort and righteousness.

    Isaac, was born to those who should not have a child being barren and too old, because God promised them he would be born, of Gods will and promise, the heir was born.

    even though Ishmael was first born, he was by Gods word, cast out from Abrahams house , that he would not share the inheritance with Isaac, born of Gods will.


    it's Christians who are counted for the seed of Abraham, whether they are born a Jew or a gentile, faith in the promised seed Jesus, is what makes us Israel. And the gathering of Israel that lasts forever , will happen at the return of Jesus Christ to earth when he sets up the new creation, including the Jerusalem in heaven , seperate from the Jerusalem we see. Ow on earth.

    your right , the natural gathering happened before Jesus came , when they were gathered from Babylon and the surrounding nations where they were. the message of prophecy is referring to the gospel and its promises we see finalized in revelation 21-22.

    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
    **Isaiah‬ *65:17-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.”
    **Zechariah‬ *8:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *24:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:12‬ *KJV‬‬


    so many times over it is written , this heaven and earth cannot be where the eternal things are, but the new creation to come forth, which is now, in the heavens, but will come forth at the end of days, and beginning of eternity

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    In His Service
    Posts
    3,364

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Have you considered that this earth and everything in it will be destroyed?

    “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:7, 10, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    if this present earth and all its works are to be destroyed, then the final gathering of Israel, is to happen here

    “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
    **Mark‬ *13:27‬ *KJV‬‬


    and they will be gathered to the Jerusalem which is above and comes down from heaven when the new things are established. Remember how many times this was the promise regarding when he gathered them " they would be his people and he would be thier God among them?

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    which was what he kept saying all along after he gathered them from the far reaches of the earth which he sent them. It's not those children of Abraham by blood , but those born of the spirit who are the elect.

    “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
    **Romans‬ *9:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see the thought I'm presenting?

    Ishmael was the son of a bondmaid, which was Sarai's will, this represents the natural descendants of Abraham, enjoined to the first covenant based on mans effort and righteousness.

    Isaac, was born to those who should not have a child being barren and too old, because God promised them he would be born, of Gods will and promise, the heir was born.

    even though Ishmael was first born, he was by Gods word, cast out from Abrahams house , that he would not share the inheritance with Isaac, born of Gods will.


    it's Christians who are counted for the seed of Abraham, whether they are born a Jew or a gentile, faith in the promised seed Jesus, is what makes us Israel. And the gathering of Israel that lasts forever , will happen at the return of Jesus Christ to earth when he sets up the new creation, including the Jerusalem in heaven , seperate from the Jerusalem we see. Ow on earth.

    your right , the natural gathering happened before Jesus came , when they were gathered from Babylon and the surrounding nations where they were. the message of prophecy is referring to the gospel and its promises we see finalized in revelation 21-22.

    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
    **Isaiah‬ *65:17-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.”
    **Zechariah‬ *8:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *24:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:12‬ *KJV‬‬


    so many times over it is written , this heaven and earth cannot be where the eternal things are, but the new creation to come forth, which is now, in the heavens, but will come forth at the end of days, and beginning of eternity
    Couldn't have said it better myself..
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  4. #4

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Yes brother, because your understanding comes from the scriptures, many of us say the same things, yet we seem to all have different aspects of insight whereby we can grow together rather than division that breaks us apart. To me it's one of Gods great designs for the church, we need one another to be more complete in knowledge and of course brotherly love, for whom should we love if we are divided against and amongst the brethren? And whom should we learn from if not those on Christ along side us....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,609

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I previously believed the doctrine of a future gathering of Israel to their homeland. However, I have recently been confronted with thoughts that have forced me to question that general belief. Among the various scriptures cited by those who hold out to a future gathering of Israel include, but not limited to Deut 30:3-4, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 37:20-28, etc.

    I have diligently studied these scriptures and more but can only conclude that there is no more gathering of Israel as popularly believed. I believe that the first gathering was fulfilled when the Babylonian captives returned. The second was fulfiled in 1948 after Israel's "dry bone" experience according to Ezekiel.

    Ezek 37:10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

    In my view, the Jews living outside Israel today are not exiles, but the diaspora. Although their forebears were exiled, their forced exile ended in 1948. Exile, by definition, is a forceful removal from one's homeland or, an unpalatable situation that forces one to willfully remove himself from his homeland for safety elsewhere. None of these conditions exists today in Israel's polity, hence my audacious claim.

    Our infallible God has fulfilled his promise of:


    1. Restoring them to their homeland and prospering them too.
    2. In restoring them, he also caused them to be one nation again. The modern state of Israel comprises of Israel and Judah.
    3. If there is a minimum of 2 people from the supposed lost tribe of "Israel" in the population of modern Israel today, then prophetically God's promise of unification is fulfilled!
    4. The promised establishment of a new covenant with them is also in place, stating from Pentecost (Heb 10:12-18).
    5. God said he will place them forever in the land their ancestors lived (Ezek 37:25). I don't see the modern state of Israel going anywhere until Jesus returns, do you?
    6. And those that'll live there forever denote the faithful in Christ - both the living and the dead that will rise to live there in the MK and beyond.


    I'm not looking to write a lengthy post as I'm sure every reader now gets my drift with this little. I'm sure my position will be like a red flag to a bull to those who still cherish another miracles gathering of Israel in the end-times. So what do ya think?
    Jesus agrees with your assessment.
    He told the same thing to the Samaritan woman at the well.

    Jesus shows there will be no more ingather or booths or wandering in the wilderness.
    Jesus fulfills sukkoth, dwelling among us in Sprint now, giving living water now, to all who seek; both Jew, Gentile, and Samaritan.


    John 4:10
    "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,744

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I previously believed the doctrine of a future gathering of Israel to their homeland. However, I have recently been confronted with thoughts that have forced me to question that general belief. Among the various scriptures cited by those who hold out to a future gathering of Israel include, but not limited to Deut 30:3-4, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 37:20-28, etc.

    I have diligently studied these scriptures and more but can only conclude that there is no more gathering of Israel as popularly believed. I believe that the first gathering was fulfilled when the Babylonian captives returned. The second was fulfiled in 1948 after Israel's "dry bone" experience according to Ezekiel.

    Ezek 37:10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

    In my view, the Jews living outside Israel today are not exiles, but the diaspora. Although their forebears were exiled, their forced exile ended in 1948. Exile, by definition, is a forceful removal from one's homeland or, an unpalatable situation that forces one to willfully remove himself from his homeland for safety elsewhere. None of these conditions exists today in Israel's polity, hence my audacious claim.

    Our infallible God has fulfilled his promise of:


    1. Restoring them to their homeland and prospering them too.
    2. In restoring them, he also caused them to be one nation again. The modern state of Israel comprises of Israel and Judah.
    3. If there is a minimum of 2 people from the supposed lost tribe of "Israel" in the population of modern Israel today, then prophetically God's promise of unification is fulfilled!
    4. The promised establishment of a new covenant with them is also in place, stating from Pentecost (Heb 10:12-18).
    5. God said he will place them forever in the land their ancestors lived (Ezek 37:25). I don't see the modern state of Israel going anywhere until Jesus returns, do you?
    6. And those that'll live there forever denote the faithful in Christ - both the living and the dead that will rise to live there in the MK and beyond.


    I'm not looking to write a lengthy post as I'm sure every reader now gets my drift with this little. I'm sure my position will be like a red flag to a bull to those who still cherish another miracles gathering of Israel in the end-times. So what do ya think?
    Strictly speaking you are correct. The bulk of your posting deals with events of this age, and Israel's diaspora is NOT resolved in this age. I refer to Acts 15:14-17;

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."


    It is clear that the Church must FIRST be built, and when this is complete, only THEN, or AFTER this, will Israel be recovered. And it is noteworthy that the bulk of the prophets speak of this FUTURE time. That which we see in our time is NOT what the bulk of the prophets speak of. But nonetheless this is a work of God. It has a close parallel to the end of the Babylonian captivity.

    At the end of the 70 years predicted for Judah's captivity, the heart of the people was largely indifferent to God's heart. Although God miraculously set events to release Judah and Benjamin, only 2˝% of them actually returned. But why was this return of a few so important? It was to prepare for the coming of Messiah. Our Lord Jesus had to be a Man, and He had to be a Man under Law. So everything that the Law required, had to be in place. The Land had to be occupied by Jews, Jerusalem had to be in place and the Temple had to be in place. These are pillars of the Law, e.g. Deuteronomy 12:11, "Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD." The Remnant of Jews were a pitiful bunch, married to heathen woman, and in need of purifying. They worked under abominable conditions with enemies on all sides. But God was with them, not for their sakes, BUT FOR HIS SAKE.

    The 14th May 1948 is a date of no real import. Jews had been streaming back to Canaan for decades before. That date in 1948 is just the date that the establishment of Israel as a State was made official. Why then has God engineered this state of affairs? AGAIN, it is preparation for the COMING of Messiah. This time though it is not only Israel that will be presented with a Messiah. The Gentiles have ruled the earth, and Israel, since the Babylonian captivity. But the "times of the Gentiles" are about full. The earth stands at the cusp of a dilemma. Shall they continue in the present state of affairs, or shall place be made for a New Government on earth. And notwithstanding the power and money of the USA, Great Britain, Europe, China and Russia, God has decreed that the CENTER of this showdown will take place in dusty Palestine - in Jerusalem. It is to Jerusalem that Islam is drawn, the Roman Church is drawn and the greatest king of the Gentiles ever, the Beast, is drawn - with his armies.

    ISRAEL, JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE ARE NEEDED FOR BOTH MEN AND GOD TO MAKE THEIR DECISION IN THIS AGE.

    And so, what we presently see is pitiful - but nevertheless of God. The Jews of modern Israel are still in unbelief. They are far more pitiful that the virile men under Zerubbabel. Far from putting away their heathen wives and purifying themselves, they host, in Tel Aviv, the largest LGBT parade in Asia every year (250,000 in 2018). They are a democracy with no king from David's line. They Law is abused by both secular and orthodox Jews. The Temple is not standing, so the Law is continually broken. Skulduggery and corruption is rife at all levels of government and business. And the hate for Jesus of Bethlehem is unabated. What we see in our time is far more pitiful than that of Zerbbabel. But the setting is nearly prepared for the Gentiles AND the Jews to make their choice. Will they choose the Beast who carries all the power of Satan, a man who has cheated death and risen from the bottomless pit, or will they choose the Christ, who also cheated death and rose from the bottomless pit, and who carries all the power of God?

    We just need the Temple. It would seem that the best kept secret, which is no secret, is that all the materials and organization for erecting a Temple are ready and could be implemented in a few months. Once this is in place, the stage is set for the cataclysmic end to this age. AND THEN, WHEN THE AGE IS COMPLETE, THAT WHICH THE BULK OF THE PROPHETS PREDICTED CAN TAKE PLACE. When the world's decision for the Beast is shown to be the wrong one, when the rejection of Jesus of Bethlehem is shown to be folly, when a New King with New Government is forced on the remaining population of earth with a righteous rod of iron, then will the gathering of Israel ACCORDING TO THE PROPHETS TAKE PLACE.

    Let it said once and for all. The Words of God through His prophets is sure, and set in concrete. Israel deserve to be obliterated. They have a three and one half thousand year record of stiff-necked Law breaking. They rejected their Messiah and His Kingdom, and murdered Him. And when faced with an imposter - the Beast, they readily embrace him. But whatever Israel have done, there is one overriding fact:- THE WORD OF GOD CANNOT BE OVERTURNED. If God has PROMISED WITH AN OATH to gather the seed of Jacob, EVERY SINGLE ONE WHO EVER LIVED, no matter how long dead and no matter how far away, IT WILL HAPPEN. It is not a matter of HOW - for what is there that Jehovah cannot do? It is not a matter of WHEN - for sooner, or later, it will happen - BECAUSE GOD SAID IT WOULD. Do we puny men look at possibilities that seem impossible? LOOK TO GOD TO WHOM NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,744

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Jesus agrees with your assessment.
    He told the same thing to the Samaritan woman at the well.

    Jesus shows there will be no more ingather or booths or wandering in the wilderness.
    Jesus fulfills sukkoth, dwelling among us in Sprint now, giving living water now, to all who seek; both Jew, Gentile, and Samaritan.


    John 4:10
    "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."
    Yes. Our Lord Jesus came to both fulfill the Law, of which the God-ordained Temple is the center. And He also came as the New Temple, not made with hands. The PLACE of worship that God decreed was Jerusalem, and now He institutes another PLACE - the human spirit. But what many do not take into account is that the Church, the New House, WAS NOT REVEALED TO THE PROPHETS, WHO NEVERTHELESS, UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF GOD, PREDICTED A RECOVERY OF ISRAEL. Maybe we humans, with our limited and very fallen intellect, have trouble dealing with duality - that is, God working with two concepts at once, while we can only work with one. Maybe we cannot fathom the Trinity, or fathom eternity, but if God reveals one people and predicts a destiny, and then at a later stage reveals another with a different destiny, where is the problem?

    Have you ever noticed that the opponents to what the prophets have said in plain language spend their energy in trying to prove that they meant something else. All the prophecies that have been fulfilled up to now, where fulfilled literally and accurately. Should not our starting point in prophecy be that these things will happen exactly as they are said to happen? If Ezekiel 37 shows "the WHOLE House of Israel" resurrected and united, is this not a sure thing? If Acts 15 says that God will return AFTER the Church is built and restore the House of David, shall we not EXPECT a MEMBER of David's House to rule over the people that David ruled over - "the WHOLE House of Israel"? Or must we find another meaning for Zechariah 14:4, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."?

    Do you really believe that our Lord Jesus will return from the sky? Do you really believe that, "... many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD" (Zechariah 8:22)? And if these STRONG nations go to Jerusalem to pray BEFORE the Lord, what are the chances that the Lord is there? And if the Lord is there, then will He not will be a King in Jerusalem? And if He is there will he not live in a palace fit for such a King? And if He dwells at Jerusalem in palace, will it not be called the House of God? And if Jerusalem is there and the King is there, why, what are the chances that Israel is there? Will He be a King without a Kingdom? So I ask, have you ever, in the whole history of mankind, seen the STRONG nations go up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord? If your answer is no, then should you not expect it at some future date?

    Or is God's sure Word chaff that the wind carries away? FAITH is not only believing what suits us. FAITH is believing what God has SAID and WRITTEN by His Spirit. The just shall, by FAITH, LIVE, and without FAITH it is impossible to please God. Why then do we spend our energy trying to make what He has WRITTEN mean something else?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,808

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Strictly speaking you are correct. The bulk of your posting deals with events of this age, and Israel's diaspora is NOT resolved in this age. I refer to Acts 15:14-17;

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."


    It is clear that the Church must FIRST be built, and when this is complete, only THEN, or AFTER this, will Israel be recovered. And it is noteworthy that the bulk of the prophets speak of this FUTURE time. That which we see in our time is NOT what the bulk of the prophets speak of. But nonetheless this is a work of God. It has a close parallel to the end of the Babylonian captivity.
    I do not read it the same as you. Verse 15 to 17 is in relation to v 14. After the Lord had destroyed the kingdom of sin/Satan on the cross He will come and build and restore the kingdom of David which is His kingdom the church. The separation between Jew and Gentile had been shredded for ever by the cross as God said that He will now be merciful over and for all, the same, no difference.

    Rom 11:32* For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.*

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,744

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not read it the same as you. Verse 15 to 17 is in relation to v 14. After the Lord had destroyed the kingdom of sin/Satan on the cross He will come and build and restore the kingdom of David which is His kingdom the church. The separation between Jew and Gentile had been shredded for ever by the cross as God said that He will now be merciful over and for all, the same, no difference.

    Rom 11:32* For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.*
    You certainly read it differently. Let's check. the context is forcing the Law onto Gentiles. In this context ...
    Verse 14.
    The Bible says; God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    Kalahari says; The Lord destroyed the kingdom of sin/Satan on the cross

    Verse 15
    "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written." Ephesians 3:1-5 & 9 say that Paul received a mystery, "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." So the thing revealed to the prophets was NOT the Church. One of these prophesies is Amos 9:7-11. Let us see who it is addressed to;

    7 "Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? ...
    8 ... saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 ...
    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old"


    It is abundantly clear who this prophecy is addressed to. "The House of Israel" X 2, and "the House of Jacob". And this House of Israel and Jacob is the one God brought out of Egypt. Added to this, Amos writes, "IS fallen" in the past tense. The Church was not revealed to Amos, and the House of David that had fallen was something that was past tense for Amos who was prophesying between 760 and 755 BC - long after the splitting of the House of Israel that David ruled over in ca. 1,000 BC.

    If you go into a concordance and put David together with the house of Israel, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, it will give you 118 hits. David is NEVER connected with the Church - EVER. Further, our Lord Jesus is Son of David, making Him King of the Jews. Our Lord Jesus is NEVER King of the Church. He is HEAD of the Church.

    There are no grounds to change the meaning of Acts 15:14-17.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,808

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You certainly read it differently. Let's check. the context is forcing the Law onto Gentiles. In this context ...
    Verse 14.
    The Bible says; God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    Kalahari says; The Lord destroyed the kingdom of sin/Satan on the cross

    Verse 15
    "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written." Ephesians 3:1-5 & 9 say that Paul received a mystery, "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." So the thing revealed to the prophets was NOT the Church. One of these prophesies is Amos 9:7-11. Let us see who it is addressed to;

    7 "Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? ...
    8 ... saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 ...
    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old"


    It is abundantly clear who this prophecy is addressed to. "The House of Israel" X 2, and "the House of Jacob". And this House of Israel and Jacob is the one God brought out of Egypt. Added to this, Amos writes, "IS fallen" in the past tense. The Church was not revealed to Amos, and the House of David that had fallen was something that was past tense for Amos who was prophesying between 760 and 755 BC - long after the splitting of the House of Israel that David ruled over in ca. 1,000 BC.

    If you go into a concordance and put David together with the house of Israel, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, it will give you 118 hits. David is NEVER connected with the Church - EVER. Further, our Lord Jesus is Son of David, making Him King of the Jews. Our Lord Jesus is NEVER King of the Church. He is HEAD of the Church.

    There are no grounds to change the meaning of Acts 15:14-17.
    Act 15:14* Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.*

    What did he said?

    Act 15:7* And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.*
    Act 15:8* And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;*
    Act 15:9* And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.*

    As prophesied by Amos God will not forsake them and is saved the same as the Gentiles by grace and faith. Jesus only have one tabernacle, that of the believers which is the church.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,456

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I previously believed the doctrine of a future gathering of Israel to their homeland. However, I have recently been confronted with thoughts that have forced me to question that general belief. Among the various scriptures cited by those who hold out to a future gathering of Israel include, but not limited to Deut 30:3-4, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 37:20-28, etc.

    I have diligently studied these scriptures and more but can only conclude that there is no more gathering of Israel as popularly believed. I believe that the first gathering was fulfilled when the Babylonian captives returned. The second was fulfiled in 1948 after Israel's "dry bone" experience according to Ezekiel.

    Ezek 37:10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

    In my view, the Jews living outside Israel today are not exiles, but the diaspora. Although their forebears were exiled, their forced exile ended in 1948. Exile, by definition, is a forceful removal from one's homeland or, an unpalatable situation that forces one to willfully remove himself from his homeland for safety elsewhere. None of these conditions exists today in Israel's polity, hence my audacious claim.

    Our infallible God has fulfilled his promise of:


    1. Restoring them to their homeland and prospering them too.
    2. In restoring them, he also caused them to be one nation again. The modern state of Israel comprises of Israel and Judah.
    3. If there is a minimum of 2 people from the supposed lost tribe of "Israel" in the population of modern Israel today, then prophetically God's promise of unification is fulfilled!
    4. The promised establishment of a new covenant with them is also in place, stating from Pentecost (Heb 10:12-18).
    5. God said he will place them forever in the land their ancestors lived (Ezek 37:25). I don't see the modern state of Israel going anywhere until Jesus returns, do you?
    6. And those that'll live there forever denote the faithful in Christ - both the living and the dead that will rise to live there in the MK and beyond.


    I'm not looking to write a lengthy post as I'm sure every reader now gets my drift with this little. I'm sure my position will be like a red flag to a bull to those who still cherish another miracles gathering of Israel in the end-times. So what do ya think?
    It makes sense to see the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. The people of Israel consist of the Jewish People, who still carry the culture that has been descended from ancient Rabbinic Judaism. This is a contaminated form of original Judaism, from a Christian pov, but it still represents the people who have descended from that population.

    As such, the restoration of the Jewish People to Palestine does indicate the fulfillment of a promised restoration. In Ezekiel it is written that God restores His people in a time when they don't deserve it. And clearly, inasmuch as the Jewish People are still in Rabbinic Judaism it is plain that the current restoration is not what they deserve!

    Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone."

    But I can't see that any of this current restoration of Israel has any value to God unless there is something more. God is not just restoring the Jewish People in their religious corruption. He is restoring them *despite* their religious corruption, in order to *purify them.*

    The purification of the Jews consist of putting their religion right, judging the wicked who are obstinate, and exalting the repentant, who turn to righteousness. We will, I believe, watch this process unfold before our eyes. But the focus of it all will be at Christ's Coming, and just before that, at Armageddon. That is when Israel will be finally broken from her backsliding. The wicked in Israel will be judged, and the righteous will be given rule over Israel. How that all takes place in detail I don't know. But I believe it's coming.

  12. #12

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    unto him*shall*the gathering of the people*be. Gen.49:10

    gather*together*in*one*all things*in*Christ
    Eph1:10

    The hour*is*coming,*and*now*is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God Jn.5:25

    Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead Eph.5:16

    I don't know why professing believers in Jesus don't get this.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,532
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Have you considered that this earth and everything in it will be destroyed?

    “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:7, 10, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    if this present earth and all its works are to be destroyed, then the final gathering of Israel, is to happen here

    “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
    **Mark‬ *13:27‬ *KJV‬‬


    and they will be gathered to the Jerusalem which is above and comes down from heaven when the new things are established. Remember how many times this was the promise regarding when he gathered them " they would be his people and he would be thier God among them?

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
    **Revelation‬ *21:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    which was what he kept saying all along after he gathered them from the far reaches of the earth which he sent them. It's not those children of Abraham by blood , but those born of the spirit who are the elect.

    “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
    **Romans‬ *9:6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
    **Galatians‬ *4:22-26, 28-31‬ *KJV‬‬


    do you see the thought I'm presenting?

    Ishmael was the son of a bondmaid, which was Sarai's will, this represents the natural descendants of Abraham, enjoined to the first covenant based on mans effort and righteousness.

    Isaac, was born to those who should not have a child being barren and too old, because God promised them he would be born, of Gods will and promise, the heir was born.

    even though Ishmael was first born, he was by Gods word, cast out from Abrahams house , that he would not share the inheritance with Isaac, born of Gods will.


    it's Christians who are counted for the seed of Abraham, whether they are born a Jew or a gentile, faith in the promised seed Jesus, is what makes us Israel. And the gathering of Israel that lasts forever , will happen at the return of Jesus Christ to earth when he sets up the new creation, including the Jerusalem in heaven , seperate from the Jerusalem we see. Ow on earth.

    your right , the natural gathering happened before Jesus came , when they were gathered from Babylon and the surrounding nations where they were. the message of prophecy is referring to the gospel and its promises we see finalized in revelation 21-22.

    “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
    **Isaiah‬ *65:17-18‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.”
    **Zechariah‬ *8:8‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *24:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:12‬ *KJV‬‬


    so many times over it is written , this heaven and earth cannot be where the eternal things are, but the new creation to come forth, which is now, in the heavens, but will come forth at the end of days, and beginning of eternity
    Most of the scriptures you quoted have little or no bearing on the topic. You claimed that Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” is a gathering of Israel. Well, you are not the first and will not be the last to make that unfounded assumption.

    1. For a start, in the NT dispensation, Israel is not the "elect". The elect, sometimes called "saints" refers to believers, the church. Of course, they are made up of the believing Jew and Gentile. But to assert that the term 'elect' is exclusively Israel couldn't be further from the truth.
    2. There is nothing in scripture or any corroboration anywhere that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet call!

    Unfortunately, I'm unable to see how the rest of your remarks relate to the subject.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,532
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Jesus agrees with your assessment.
    He told the same thing to the Samaritan woman at the well.

    Jesus shows there will be no more ingather or booths or wandering in the wilderness.
    Jesus fulfills sukkoth, dwelling among us in Sprint now, giving living water now, to all who seek; both Jew, Gentile, and Samaritan.


    John 4:10
    "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."
    Thanks David, it takes discernment to understand these things. I've debated with brothers who despite being born-again Christ professing Christians still don't believe that they too, despite being Gentile, are also partakes of the new covenant.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    3,159

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You claimed that Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” is a gathering of Israel. Well, you are not the first and will not be the last to make that unfounded assumption.

    1. For a start, in the NT dispensation, Israel is not the "elect". The elect, sometimes called "saints" refers to believers, the church. Of course, they are made up of the believing Jew and Gentile. But to assert that the term 'elect' is exclusively Israel couldn't be further from the truth.
    2. There is nothing in scripture or any corroboration anywhere that the gathering of Israel will be heralded by a trumpet call!

    Unfortunately, I'm unable to see how the rest of your remarks relate to the subject.
    Claims like these two Just show your own personal lack of Familiarity with the scriptures.

    First you claim the NT starts before Christ died on the Cross, Second you claim that there is no scripture that mentions the gathering of Israel in relation with a trumpet. Both claims are false, I just hope after you recieve correction you go back and actually re-answer these questions absent these false assertions.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Olivet Discourse--the gathering of Israel
    By randyk in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: Feb 19th 2017, 12:24 AM
  2. Does Israel's future restoration *require* the Law?
    By randyk in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 714
    Last Post: Dec 9th 2016, 08:26 AM
  3. Replies: 31
    Last Post: Nov 15th 2011, 10:56 AM
  4. Truth,myth,or scare tactics?
    By KATMAN in forum Christian Fellowship
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Jan 23rd 2010, 05:07 PM
  5. The future "gathering" of true Christians
    By immortality in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: Nov 5th 2008, 07:58 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •