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Thread: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

  1. #196
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The tree doesn't represent Jesus.

    The tree had natural branches which are Jews. Some branches believed in Jesus but some did not. The unbelievers were still originally from that tree so the tree can't be Jesus because unbelieving Jews were never attached to Jesus but they were born into/attached to Israel. Having faith in Jesus allows them to remain on the tree, and lack of faith gets them removed. So, the tree is Israel, not the country called Israel, not even the genetic relation to past Israelites through bloodlines but Israel as in whom God chooses to be his. To be of THAT Israel depends on whether or not a person is a Christian/follower and believer in Christ.
    Here are your mistakes.

    1. The "Israel" referenced by Paul in Rom 11 is the people ethnic Jewish extraction. The focus is all about ethnicity, hence the contrast is made using Israel and Gentile.
    2. I never suggested in any sense that it the "country of Israel" as you put it.
    3. Paul did not say that the "believing Gentile" presently grafted into the tree is Israel.
    4. Can you separate a tree from its root? The root holds up the tree - so your claim that Israel is the *tree* makes zero sense.
    5. If Israel is the tree, how could they be broken off from themselves?

  2. #197
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Here are your mistakes.

    1. The "Israel" referenced by Paul in Rom 11 is the people ethnic Jewish extraction. The focus is all about ethnicity, hence the contrast is made using Israel and Gentile.
    There is no such contrast as all people are olive branches. It's membership to one certain olive tree that is in focus. If you are Christians you are on the certain olive tree, if you are non-Christian gentile you remain on whatever wild olive tree you were born into. If you are a natural branch of this certain olive tree but are non-Christians then you are removed from that tree and have no tree which means you are a dead branch.


    2. I never suggested in any sense that it the "country of Israel" as you put it.
    Never said you did. I just mentioned it in case anyone reading things differently.



    3. Paul did not say that the "believing Gentile" presently grafted into the tree is Israel.
    Yes he did.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    4. Can you separate a tree from its root? The root holds up the tree - so your claim that Israel is the *tree* makes zero sense.
    The tree is still Israel not Christ because the original branches are natural born Jews of Israel.

    5. If Israel is the tree, how could they be broken off from themselves?
    Natural born Jews are kicked out of Israel. It's like losing citizenship from the USA and deported away. Sure, the person was born American but they aren't a legal citizen anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Here are your mistakes.

    1. The "Israel" referenced by Paul in Rom 11 is the people ethnic Jewish extraction. The focus is all about ethnicity, hence the contrast is made using Israel and Gentile.
    There is no such contrast as all people are olive branches. It's membership to one certain olive tree that is in focus. If you are Christians you are on the certain olive tree, if you are non-Christian gentile you remain on whatever wild olive tree you were born into. If you are a natural branch of this certain olive tree but are non-Christians then you are removed from that tree and have no tree which means you are a dead branch.


    2. I never suggested in any sense that it the "country of Israel" as you put it.
    Never said you did. I just mentioned it in case anyone reading things differently.



    3. Paul did not say that the "believing Gentile" presently grafted into the tree is Israel.
    Yes he did.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    4. Can you separate a tree from its root? The root holds up the tree - so your claim that Israel is the *tree* makes zero sense.
    The tree is still Israel not Christ because the original branches are natural born Jews of Israel.

    5. If Israel is the tree, how could they be broken off from themselves?
    Natural born Jews are kicked out of Israel. It's like losing citizenship from the USA and deported away. Sure, the person was born American but they aren't a legal citizen anymore.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #198
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please clarify the above so I don't quote you out of context. On one hand, you said that Zech 14:16 refers to the Jerusalem of today. According to you the prophets and Jesus points to the Jerusalem that exists now. On the other hand, you say it is Jerusalem of the Messianic age - the MK when Jesus has returned.

    Since Zech 14:16 can't both, please clarify which you believe it is to enable me to respond appropriately.
    Jerusalem exists today. It is "trampled of the Gentiles". A Gentile holy place occupies Moriah. Soon a Temple will be built alongside it, or on the rubble of it. A Gentile kings - the Beast, sets himself up in this Temple and claims all worship. Two Witnesses from God trsifiy 1260 days against it but are slain. Our Lord descends out of the clouds and touches down on Mount Olives. He enters Jerusalem and saves the inhabitants. He then proceeds to Jezreel and decimates the army of this Beast. He proceeds to Bozrah in Edom and comes back covered in blood. He sets up His Throne at Jerusalem and judges Israel and the Nations. When all this is complete, a Temple to the specifications of Ezekiel is built on the rubble of the Beasts's Temple and the Muslim Temple. Jerusalem, the one that is now, is trod of the Gentiles, is occupied by the Beast, is divided by an earthquake and is graced by the entry of the Savior through the East Gate, does not disappear. Just the King changes!

    2nd Kings 21:7; "And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever"

    1st Chronicles 23:25; "For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever"

    2nd Chronicles 33:4; "Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever."

    2nd Chronicles 33:7; "And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever"

    The Jerusalem that now is, and which will host the Beast, and which will be saved by Messiah, and will host Emmanuel in Ezekiel's Temple WILL REMAIN FOREVER!

    1,000 years after our Lord Jesus enters, saves and occupies Jerusalem, God renews the heavens and the earth. It's previous system and history will pass from memory. To show, by a very pregnant picture, the consummation of His Work on earth, God shows John a "sign".
    • He calls this sign as coming down from heaven - that is, heavenly in origin and nature
    • He calls this sign as coming down to earth - that is, God's heavenly plan is applied to earth
    • He calls this sign a Woman - a Bride for His Son Jesus
    • He calls this sign a City - for ruling this earth
    • He calls this sign "God Tabernacling with men" - that is, the Church is completed
    • He calls this sign as having the glory of God - that is, in the image and likeness of God
    • This sign has a single street - shoeing only one way
    • This sign has a single River - showing a single supply
    • This sign has a single Tree, but on both sides of the street - showing an all-encompassing source if you take the way
    • This sign is a cube - 2,000 kilometers high - the shape of the Holy of Holies
    • This sign has a foundation which is Christ
    • This sign has Walls whose foundations are the Twelve Apostles
    • This sign has Walls made of Christians
    • This sign has Walls made of men who are precious stones
    • This sign has Gates made of the twelve Tribes of Israel
    • This sign has Gates of Israel's Tribes who are pearls
    • This sign has no sun or moon
    • This sign allows audience with God for SOME of the Nations
    • This sign is "Mother of us ALL" - Israel and the Church

    If this City, Mother, Bride, from Heaven but on Earth is taken literally any amount of absurdity results. It is an ALL-ENCOMPASSING "SIGN" OF THE CONSUMMATION of God's Work of the whole Bible, written so skillfully as to condense the Bible into TWO CHAPTERS, but require the whole Bible to explain it. It is NOT a literal City.

    The literal City Jerusalem is that real physical city on the high ground of Canaan, which is now, which stands on the rubble of previous Jerusalems, and which will never be moved again. It will undergo extensive renovations after the Beast is cast out - BUT IT REMAINS FOR EVER.

  4. #199
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Looks like we are arguing at cross-purposes because the above has nothing to do with the question I reference Heb 11. You have consistently argued that ALL Israel will be saved; the dead including the wicked, resurrected to *inherit* the Land. In my rebuttal, I argued that only Israel's faithful throughout the ages (from the OT to the NT saints) will be eligible to inherit the land. This led me to reference Heb 11 with its focus on devout OT Hebrews.

    Unfortunately, your post here is a departure from that topic. To prove my point, you will recall that I pointed out to those of Israel Jesus said would be cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 8:12) as evidence that some Israel will not partake of the land promise? But in your departure, you addressed the fate and dilemma of Jewish converts in the 1st century that prompted Paul to write to allay their concerns in chapter 10. My point is, this has no bearing on what we were discussing.

    Furthermore, I never said that OT Israel had faith in Jesus! They had faith in Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - their Patriarchs.
    On the contrary, it is no departure from the gathering of Israel to their land. You quoted it as showing that the basis for getting the Land was "faith". I showed, by my posting, that those People of God who will gain the earth (and Canaan is part of it) had FAITH in God's ability to gi them this Land / Earth in RESURRECTION. It is this faith, and not faith in Jesus, that directed and energized their daily living. You, in the back of your head, entertain the notion that Israel are to be saved by FAITH in Jesus. You, in the back of your head, cannot allow in the thought that Israel get their Land by MERCY and by CIRCUMCISION. In the back of your head is the indelibly printed belief that "All Israel will be saved" means that they will, at some stage, believe in Jesus. And you use Hebrews 11 to try to prove it. I wrote extensively that the FAITH that men of old had was NOT CONNECTED directly with the "mystery of Christ". It was FAITH that God was able to keep His Word even after death, and it was a FAITH that directed, energized and dictated their daily walk.

    Let's reverse it. Our Prime Example is Esau. When Esau had his low blood sugar, he stated that he would die. Now, at that point, Esau had no children. But God had promised him, via Abraham and Isaac, that he would have seed as the sand of the sea. If Esau died, this Promise by God would have collapsed. So Esau DID NOT BELIEVE GOD. If he did, he would never has said he was going to die before having "seed". Next, Esau was firstborn. He was the HEIR. He would carry the promise onward of seed as the sand of the sea. This he denied and despised. Also, the firstborn received a double portion (Deut.21:17). Esau was in line for a double portion of the Land. This he esteemed less value than a plate of soup. Also, as the firstborn he would have produced the "seed that would possess the gates of their enemies" - Jesus. Esau should have had the fame of being the great grandfather of the Man Jesus. This too he did not care for. Esau, if he had BELIEVED what his father and grandfather had said that God has said, would NEVER have acted like he did. His UNBELIEF dictated, energized and directed his actions - actions that lost him his inheritance and MADE GOD HATE HIM (Mal.1:3; Rom.9:13).

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The tree doesn't represent Jesus.

    The tree had natural branches which are Jews. Some branches believed in Jesus but some did not. The unbelievers were still originally from that tree so the tree can't be Jesus because unbelieving Jews were never attached to Jesus but they were born into/attached to Israel. Having faith in Jesus allows them to remain on the tree, and lack of faith gets them removed. So, the tree is Israel, not the country called Israel, not even the genetic relation to past Israelites through bloodlines but Israel as in whom God chooses to be his. To be of THAT Israel depends on whether or not a person is a Christian/follower and believer in Christ.
    I have tried (and failed woefully it seems) to show you that the tree is NOT Israel as you claim. If the tree is Israel, how then can they be broken off from themselves? Think about it.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jerusalem exists today. It is "trampled of the Gentiles". A Gentile holy place occupies Moriah. Soon a Temple will be built alongside it, or on the rubble of it. A Gentile kings - the Beast, sets himself up in this Temple and claims all worship. Two Witnesses from God trsifiy 1260 days against it but are slain. Our Lord descends out of the clouds and touches down on Mount Olives. He enters Jerusalem and saves the inhabitants. He then proceeds to Jezreel and decimates the army of this Beast. He proceeds to Bozrah in Edom and comes back covered in blood. He sets up His Throne at Jerusalem and judges Israel and the Nations. When all this is complete, a Temple to the specifications of Ezekiel is built on the rubble of the Beasts's Temple and the Muslim Temple. Jerusalem, the one that is now, is trod of the Gentiles, is occupied by the Beast, is divided by an earthquake and is graced by the entry of the Savior through the East Gate, does not disappear. Just the King changes!

    2nd Kings 21:7; "And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever"

    1st Chronicles 23:25; "For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever"

    2nd Chronicles 33:4; "Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever."

    2nd Chronicles 33:7; "And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever"

    The Jerusalem that now is, and which will host the Beast, and which will be saved by Messiah, and will host Emmanuel in Ezekiel's Temple WILL REMAIN FOREVER!

    1,000 years after our Lord Jesus enters, saves and occupies Jerusalem, God renews the heavens and the earth. It's previous system and history will pass from memory. To show, by a very pregnant picture, the consummation of His Work on earth, God shows John a "sign".
    • He calls this sign as coming down from heaven - that is, heavenly in origin and nature
    • He calls this sign as coming down to earth - that is, God's heavenly plan is applied to earth
    • He calls this sign a Woman - a Bride for His Son Jesus
    • He calls this sign a City - for ruling this earth
    • He calls this sign "God Tabernacling with men" - that is, the Church is completed
    • He calls this sign as having the glory of God - that is, in the image and likeness of God
    • This sign has a single street - shoeing only one way
    • This sign has a single River - showing a single supply
    • This sign has a single Tree, but on both sides of the street - showing an all-encompassing source if you take the way
    • This sign is a cube - 2,000 kilometers high - the shape of the Holy of Holies
    • This sign has a foundation which is Christ
    • This sign has Walls whose foundations are the Twelve Apostles
    • This sign has Walls made of Christians
    • This sign has Walls made of men who are precious stones
    • This sign has Gates made of the twelve Tribes of Israel
    • This sign has Gates of Israel's Tribes who are pearls
    • This sign has no sun or moon
    • This sign allows audience with God for SOME of the Nations
    • This sign is "Mother of us ALL" - Israel and the Church

    If this City, Mother, Bride, from Heaven but on Earth is taken literally any amount of absurdity results. It is an ALL-ENCOMPASSING "SIGN" OF THE CONSUMMATION of God's Work of the whole Bible, written so skillfully as to condense the Bible into TWO CHAPTERS, but require the whole Bible to explain it. It is NOT a literal City.

    The literal City Jerusalem is that real physical city on the high ground of Canaan, which is now, which stands on the rubble of previous Jerusalems, and which will never be moved again. It will undergo extensive renovations after the Beast is cast out - BUT IT REMAINS FOR EVER.
    Your earlier post was confusing, hence the reason I asked for clarification.

    Your present post concurs that Zech 14:16 refers to Israel when Jesus returns. Nothing more to disagree with. Thanks.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    On the contrary, it is no departure from the gathering of Israel to their land. You quoted it as showing that the basis for getting the Land was "faith". I showed, by my posting, that those People of God who will gain the earth (and Canaan is part of it) had FAITH in God's ability to gi them this Land / Earth in RESURRECTION. It is this faith, and not faith in Jesus, that directed and energized their daily living. You, in the back of your head, entertain the notion that Israel are to be saved by FAITH in Jesus. You, in the back of your head, cannot allow in the thought that Israel get their Land by MERCY and by CIRCUMCISION. In the back of your head is the indelibly printed belief that "All Israel will be saved" means that they will, at some stage, believe in Jesus. And you use Hebrews 11 to try to prove it. I wrote extensively that the FAITH that men of old had was NOT CONNECTED directly with the "mystery of Christ". It was FAITH that God was able to keep His Word even after death, and it was a FAITH that directed, energized and dictated their daily walk.

    Let's reverse it. Our Prime Example is Esau. When Esau had his low blood sugar, he stated that he would die. Now, at that point, Esau had no children. But God had promised him, via Abraham and Isaac, that he would have seed as the sand of the sea. If Esau died, this Promise by God would have collapsed. So Esau DID NOT BELIEVE GOD. If he did, he would never has said he was going to die before having "seed". Next, Esau was firstborn. He was the HEIR. He would carry the promise onward of seed as the sand of the sea. This he denied and despised. Also, the firstborn received a double portion (Deut.21:17). Esau was in line for a double portion of the Land. This he esteemed less value than a plate of soup. Also, as the firstborn he would have produced the "seed that would possess the gates of their enemies" - Jesus. Esau should have had the fame of being the great grandfather of the Man Jesus. This too he did not care for. Esau, if he had BELIEVED what his father and grandfather had said that God has said, would NEVER have acted like he did. His UNBELIEF dictated, energized and directed his actions - actions that lost him his inheritance and MADE GOD HATE HIM (Mal.1:3; Rom.9:13).
    You seem to forget that there's a difference between those that lived in the OT and those in the NT? The OT devouts had faith in GOD. But in the NT, it is impossible to claim to have faith in God while rejecting Christ, so ONLY faith in Christ saves. Unfortunately, your logic with regards to the land inheritance is sometimes nebulous and had to follow. Circumcision was sufficient for the Hebrews that left Egypt to inherit or enter the promised land of Canaan. But in the age to come, circumcision is a poor and irrelevant criterion for the land inheritance. God's promise stands - but only the faithful OT in God and NT in Christ will inherit.

    Your Esau analogy is lost on me. Sorry. Maybe because I'm in a rush to meet up an appointment. Apologies.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have tried (and failed woefully it seems) to show you that the tree is NOT Israel as you claim. If the tree is Israel, how then can they be broken off from themselves? Think about it.
    They cease to be Israel in God's eyes after being broken off. The fact that the original branches are Jews/Israelites in the ethnic sense proves the tree is Israel. They are born as ethnic Jews, so are ethnic branches but what's new is being allowed to grow on that tree is now solely based on whether one has faith in Christ or not. Being of Israel is now a spiritual condition since gentiles can be grafted/adopted into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have tried (and failed woefully it seems) to show you that the tree is NOT Israel as you claim. If the tree is Israel, how then can they be broken off from themselves? Think about it.
    They cease to be Israel in God's eyes after being broken off. The fact that the original branches are Jews/Israelites in the ethnic sense proves the tree is Israel. They are born as ethnic Jews, so are ethnic branches but what's new is being allowed to grow on that tree is now solely based on whether one has faith in Christ or not. Being of Israel is now a spiritual condition since gentiles can be grafted/adopted into it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You seem to forget that there's a difference between those that lived in the OT and those in the NT? The OT devouts had faith in GOD. But in the NT, it is impossible to claim to have faith in God while rejecting Christ, so ONLY faith in Christ saves. Unfortunately, your logic with regards to the land inheritance is sometimes nebulous and had to follow. Circumcision was sufficient for the Hebrews that left Egypt to inherit or enter the promised land of Canaan. But in the age to come, circumcision is a poor and irrelevant criterion for the land inheritance. God's promise stands - but only the faithful OT in God and NT in Christ will inherit.

    Your Esau analogy is lost on me. Sorry. Maybe because I'm in a rush to meet up an appointment. Apologies.
    We've made a giant step. WE both now address the inheritance of the Land. God's purpose with man is THE LAND (Gen.1:26-28) - not heaven as so many Christians believe. God gave man the authority to subdue and rule the EARTH. When our Lord Jesus comes , His teaching, miracles, lief, death and resurrection are for THE EARTH. Our Lord's prayer to his Father is, in Matthew 6:9-10;

    9 "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."


    From Adam to New Jerusalem, the whole issue is whether men in God's image and likeness will subdue and rule this earth, or will some other creature usurp this dominion. But Adam fails in three things:
    1. He eats of a Tree that irreparably poisons his body
    2. He leaves his union with God and joins himself to God's "Adversary", allowing the Adversary to rule through him and his seed
    3. He refuses the Tree of Life and is finally barred from it. In so doing he so can NEVER be in the image and likeness of God

    But God is not to be thwarted. He immediately starts a recovery process. It begins with Promises that a certain Seed of Eve would dash the Adversary and regain the upper hand. To introduce this Seed God selects a particular man, Abraham, and Promises him a number of things. One of them is that a certain Seed of his and Sarah's loins would "possess the gate of His enemy". A Gate in parable is the seat of government. Another of them is that Abraham would be fruitful and bring forth nations, one of which would be the conduit for this Promised Seed. He, God, would give them a piece of this EARTH as an "everlasting possession". And when, some 430 years later, this nation is led triumphantly from the bondage of the Adversary, God instructs them how they are to live as a testimony of the God Who gives them that piece of the EARTH - the Law. The Contract for this certain nation to GAIN the LAND is a symbolic cutting off of the flesh - circumcision. The Contract TO STAY AS POSSESSOR of this LAND is that they live by these Laws.

    But all men, even the best of them, are irreparably poisoned, as Romans 7 shows us. And it was not but days from entering into this SECOND CONTRACT - that of Law, that they broke it. The die was set. Israel would, sooner or later, as per the Contract, lose possession of the LAND (Ex.32:34). Immediately a dilemma FOR GOD arises. In one contract He is duty-bound by His own oath to give Israel the Land as an "everlasting possession", and is EQUALLY duty-bound to cast them out of the Land that they so polluted. What is then the Divine solution? It is fourfold;
    1. God must establish a legal and judicially correct way of forgiving Israel their sins
    2. God must establish a representative remnant who return to the Contract of Law
    3. God must resurrect and gather all the offspring of Jacob back to their Land
    4. God must establish a New Contract of Law based on a more effective foundation than the flesh of man

    This God does through and by the Israelite Jesus of Bethlehem.
    1. Jesus is presented as the "Lamb of God". Israel is familiar with this. They worshiped idols and build treasure cities for Satan in Egypt. They were worthy of death alongside the Egyptian. But God Passed Over them because of the blood of a Substitute - a Lamb without blemish. God raises up John Baptist to INTRODUCE Jesus who would take away Israel's sin and sins (Jn.1:29; 1st John 2:2).
    2. God reserves for Himself, a certain REMNANT of Israel who return to the Law with their whole heart and soul (Deut.30:1-5). God numbers them as 7,000 in Elijah's time (Rom 11) and 144,000 by the time of the Beast (Rev.7:1-8). (Let us not discuss these numbers here and now for the sake of continuity. I am ready to agree to them being symbolic AND literal - it makes no difference to my argument). This REMNANT are those predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and they DO NOT EMBRACE JESUS. They return to the LAW.
    3. When the Great Tribulation is ended by God (for He cuts it short for Israel's sake), Christ, Who is the "life-giving-Spirit" (1st Cor.15:45), raises up every offspring of Jacob who was ever conceived, and because of the diaspora in which millions of Israelites were born and died in foreign lands, He sends His Father's angels to gather them back to Canaan - their piece of EARTH.
    4. After this monumental work of recovery, one thing stands in the way. What is to stop Israel from again breaking the Covenant of Law and being vomited out of their Land again? The answer is that the Law must never again address the FLESH (Rom.8:3). It must never be OUTSIDE men and make demands on their flesh. So God writes these some 620 Laws on the hearts and minds of His people Israel (Jer.31:31-33). The Law must not be an impossible goal for a man's flesh to attain to. It must be his INTRINSIC tendency. A dog barks because of what is IN HIM - the law of canines. Man breaks the Law because of what DWELLS IN HIM - a law of sin and death (Rom.7:17-23). So for the sake of the New Covenant, God writes His Laws INSIDE the Israelite. Thereafter, his tendency will be to automatically follow his MAKE-UP - what is intrinsically IN HIM

    All this is NOT SO THAT ISRAELITES WILL ESCAPE THE LAKE OF FIRE, HAVE THE DIVINE NATURE AND BE SONS OF GOD. It is the PROCESS whereby God RECONCILES THE TWO CONFLICTING COVENANTS!!! By this clever and costly process, God is able, WITHOUT BREAKING ONE OF HIS RULES, and without breaking one letter of BOTH COVENANTS, to restore Israel to their Land and anchor them in such a way so that they never again are kicked out of it.

    Now I know that you itching to bring the salvation by Jesus Christ into this, so let us address it. God's purpose with Israel was much higher than what we see achieved above. What we see above is the clever and costly recovery of Israel because they were under COVENANTS - CONTRACTS. What God really offered Israel was "the Kingdom of Heaven". That is, Israelites would
    1. be forgiven their sins
    2. be eligible to eat from the Tree of Life which, because of sin, is now a Lamb and Bread
    3. possess the heavenly nature by a rebirth from above
    4. be transformed into the image of Christ by an ongoing process of the indwelling Holy Spirit
    5. be resurrected with "celestial glory" with bodies like Christ's
    6. get their Land back
    7. be the leading nation and RULE THE EARTH

    BUT ISRAEL REFUSED THIS! So any discussion about what could have been IS MOOT. Israel remain blind and without faith "till God changes the world's government from Gentile rule to "Jesus rule". SIX of the seven things above are only available BY FAITH - and Israel HAD NONE, and will HAVE NONE till the New King bursts out of the clouds in full SIGHT. So, the above six of seven points being lost to Israel, there is no point in discussing them. If an Israelite, as a small minority do, comes to Jesus by faith, HIS WHOLE PAST, with Covenants, ethnicity and culture PASSES AWAY (2nd Cor.6:17). He BECOMES a New Man. If this is hard to fathom just look at Peter in Acts Chapter 10. On what grounds does Peter, an Israelite and born under Law, have the right ot eat unclean flesh? It is not offered to him by Gentiles. It is not offered to him by wayward Israelites. It is offered to him by NONE OTHER THAN THE ALMIGHTY - the One who gave the Law and enforced its terms with DEATH to Lawbreakers. From Matthew 16 (or John 20) PETER IS NO LONGER AN ISRAELITE. The Covenant of Law is GONE. His ethnicity IS GONE. His connection to Israel IS GONE. He is a FULLY NEW CREATURE!

    So, in any discussion of Israel's recovery to their Land, it is the COVENANTS that count. Israel's UNBELIEF does not change or annul a Covenant with God. So these Covenants have their clever and expensive end to God's glory and Israel's privilege. The discussion should never go further than this BECAUSE ALL THE THINGS THAT GO WITH FAITH are not theirs. Such a discussion is VAIN. It serves no purpose. But discussion as to the consummation of the Covenants IS EVERYTHING - for on these Covenant hang God's reputation.

    I will say no more. If you find any merit in this epistle, chew and chew it. If it is not to your liking, or you can't cope with it, spit it out. But remember one thing. A correct argument is made of a series of correct statements in a correct order. If each and every one of my statements is essentially correct, it is more than likely that my conclusion is correct.

    Please forgive me if this is the last posting from me. I will be away from my trusty laptop for a while.

    Go well and God bless.

  10. #205
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They cease to be Israel in God's eyes after being broken off. The fact that the original branches are Jews/Israelites in the ethnic sense proves the tree is Israel. They are born as ethnic Jews, so are ethnic branches but what's new is being allowed to grow on that tree is now solely based on whether one has faith in Christ or not. Being of Israel is now a spiritual condition since gentiles can be grafted/adopted into it.
    Looks like you are the only blind to the illogical argument you're making here. This is what you are telling me.

    1. The tree is Israel.
    2. The original branches (according to you) are Israel in the ethnic sense. So Israel the branch is growing into the tree which happens himself - Israel!
    3. They are born as ethnic Jews but are allowed to grow on that tree (which is themselves Israel) based or whether they have faith in Christ or not!

    If you can't see how ludicrous this argument is, I don't know how else to help.

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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post


    If you can't see how ludicrous this argument is, I don't know how else to help.
    There is nothing ludicrous here. God gave the name Israel to a man and his children, before that they weren't Israel. He can take it away from anyone, and he can give it to new people. It started as an ethnic concept but it's now a spiritual concept. Some of the original peoples have the right spirit and Messiah so they get to stay, new peoples have the right spirit and Messiah and they get to join. It's all about who remains Israel and who gets to join Israel based on faith in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post


    If you can't see how ludicrous this argument is, I don't know how else to help.
    There is nothing ludicrous here. God gave the name Israel to a man and his children, before that they weren't Israel. He can take it away from anyone, and he can give it to new people. It started as an ethnic concept but it's now a spiritual concept. Some of the original peoples have the right spirit and Messiah so they get to stay, new peoples have the right spirit and Messiah and they get to join. It's all about who remains Israel and who gets to join Israel based on faith in Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #207

    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Gen 32:24-28


    the Messenger who is redeeming me from all evil doth bless the youths, and my name is called upon them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and they increase into a multitude in the midst of the land.' And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh; and Joseph saith unto his father, 'Not so, my father, for this is the first-born; set thy right hand on his head.' And his father refuseth, and saith, 'I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;' Gen 48:16-19 YLT

    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in; and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, 'There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob, Romans 11:25,26 YLT


    A lot of interesting language and comparison of, Jacob, Israel, fulness of the nations, the man of sin Jacob, the redeemed man Israel and when redemption comes to, all Israel.

    Somehow I believe this to be relative to the OP.

    And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Gen 32:24-28


    the Messenger who is redeeming me from all evil doth bless the youths, and my name is called upon them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and they increase into a multitude in the midst of the land.' And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh; and Joseph saith unto his father, 'Not so, my father, for this is the first-born; set thy right hand on his head.' And his father refuseth, and saith, 'I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;' Gen 48:16-19 YLT

    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in; and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, 'There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob, Romans 11:25,26 YLT


    A lot of interesting language and comparison of, Jacob, Israel, fulness of the nations, the man of sin Jacob, the redeemed man Israel and when redemption comes to, all Israel.

    Somehow I believe this to be relative to the OP.

  13. #208
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is nothing ludicrous here. God gave the name Israel to a man and his children, before that they weren't Israel. He can take it away from anyone, and he can give it to new people. It started as an ethnic concept but it's now a spiritual concept. Some of the original peoples have the right spirit and Messiah so they get to stay, new peoples have the right spirit and Messiah and they get to join. It's all about who remains Israel and who gets to join Israel based on faith in Christ.
    There are an ethnic people called Israel literally. A Gentile can only assume to be "spiritual Israel". But we are not speaking of Israel in a spiritual sense with regards to the olive tree, are we? So what you are on about above?

    I give up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is nothing ludicrous here. God gave the name Israel to a man and his children, before that they weren't Israel. He can take it away from anyone, and he can give it to new people. It started as an ethnic concept but it's now a spiritual concept. Some of the original peoples have the right spirit and Messiah so they get to stay, new peoples have the right spirit and Messiah and they get to join. It's all about who remains Israel and who gets to join Israel based on faith in Christ.
    There are an ethnic people called Israel literally. A Gentile can only assume to be "spiritual Israel". But we are not speaking of Israel in a spiritual sense with regards to the olive tree, are we? So what you are on about above?

    I give up.

  14. #209
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There are an ethnic people called Israel literally. A Gentile can only assume to be "spiritual Israel".
    Spiritual Israel is the only Israel that matters anymore. Remaining Israel or being attached to Israel is a spiritual condition ie: faith in Christ. Being ethnically born of one of the 12 tribes doesn't allow someone to remain on the tree.

    A Jew born today is a natural branch. If that person keeps Judaism and does not accept Christ then they are spiritually pruned off the tree they were born into which is Israel.
    If that person hears of Christ and believes he is the Messiah, then they are spiritually re-attached to the tree they were originally born a part of...reattached to Israel which was their original place to begin with.

    A gentile born today is a branch on a different olive tree. If that person does not accept Christ, they remain on the tree they were born a part of. If they accept Christ, they are removed from the original olive tree and grafted onto the special olive tree where all Jews/Israelites are born into. That's why the Jewish branches are on a tree symbolizing Israel. Here Israel is an olive tree:

    Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    There is a tree with natural or original branches. Those branches are the Jewish people making the tree Israel. After Christ came branches that rejected Him are removed, and gentile branches that accept Christ are added to it. The tree is still representative of Israel because it has many original branches/Jews, it just now includes gentiles as well as Jews, all who are Christians/Messianics.

    Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    Here Israel (both houses) are likened to a green olive tree which means a young tree. The natural branches of the tree would be the individuals of Israel.


    Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
    Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
    Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
    Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
    Hos 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
    Hos 14:6 [B]His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree[/B], and his smell as Lebanon.


    Here again, Israel is a beautiful Olive tree.

    No surprise that Paul would use the same analogy:

    Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    The olive tree and the wild olive tree and the branches being removed and some grafted in is all about joining or leaving Israel, those that believe and do not believe in Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There are an ethnic people called Israel literally. A Gentile can only assume to be "spiritual Israel".
    Spiritual Israel is the only Israel that matters anymore. Remaining Israel or being attached to Israel is a spiritual condition ie: faith in Christ. Being ethnically born of one of the 12 tribes doesn't allow someone to remain on the tree.

    A Jew born today is a natural branch. If that person keeps Judaism and does not accept Christ then they are spiritually pruned off the tree they were born into which is Israel.
    If that person hears of Christ and believes he is the Messiah, then they are spiritually re-attached to the tree they were originally born a part of...reattached to Israel which was their original place to begin with.

    A gentile born today is a branch on a different olive tree. If that person does not accept Christ, they remain on the tree they were born a part of. If they accept Christ, they are removed from the original olive tree and grafted onto the special olive tree where all Jews/Israelites are born into. That's why the Jewish branches are on a tree symbolizing Israel. Here Israel is an olive tree:

    Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    There is a tree with natural or original branches. Those branches are the Jewish people making the tree Israel. After Christ came branches that rejected Him are removed, and gentile branches that accept Christ are added to it. The tree is still representative of Israel because it has many original branches/Jews, it just now includes gentiles as well as Jews, all who are Christians/Messianics.

    Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    Here Israel (both houses) are likened to a green olive tree which means a young tree. The natural branches of the tree would be the individuals of Israel.


    Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
    Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
    Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
    Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
    Hos 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
    Hos 14:6 [B]His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree[/B], and his smell as Lebanon.


    Here again, Israel is a beautiful Olive tree.

    No surprise that Paul would use the same analogy:

    Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    The olive tree and the wild olive tree and the branches being removed and some grafted in is all about joining or leaving Israel, those that believe and do not believe in Jesus Christ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #210
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    Re: The touted future gathering of Israel: truth or myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Spiritual Israel is the only Israel that matters anymore. Remaining Israel or being attached to Israel is a spiritual condition ie: faith in Christ. Being ethnically born of one of the 12 tribes doesn't allow someone to remain on the tree.

    A Jew born today is a natural branch. If that person keeps Judaism and does not accept Christ then they are spiritually pruned off the tree they were born into which is Israel.
    If that person hears of Christ and believes he is the Messiah, then they are spiritually re-attached to the tree they were originally born a part of...reattached to Israel which was their original place to begin with.

    A gentile born today is a branch on a different olive tree. If that person does not accept Christ, they remain on the tree they were born a part of. If they accept Christ, they are removed from the original olive tree and grafted onto the special olive tree where all Jews/Israelites are born into. That's why the Jewish branches are on a tree symbolizing Israel. Here Israel is an olive tree:

    Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    There is a tree with natural or original branches. Those branches are the Jewish people making the tree Israel. After Christ came branches that rejected Him are removed, and gentile branches that accept Christ are added to it. The tree is still representative of Israel because it has many original branches/Jews, it just now includes gentiles as well as Jews, all who are Christians/Messianics.

    Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    Here Israel (both houses) are likened to a green olive tree which means a young tree. The natural branches of the tree would be the individuals of Israel.


    Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
    Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
    Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
    Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
    Hos 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
    Hos 14:6 [B]His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree[/B], and his smell as Lebanon.


    Here again, Israel is a beautiful Olive tree.

    No surprise that Paul would use the same analogy:

    Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    The olive tree and the wild olive tree and the branches being removed and some grafted in is all about joining or leaving Israel, those that believe and do not believe in Jesus Christ.
    Given the fact you keep dancing around, it's obvious we are arguing at cross purposes. Our argument is not about "the version of Israel" that matters. It's obvious we can't have a mature discussion on this subject because you keep shifting the goal post. A new person joining the conversation will struggle to understand what the topic is about. We started out to discuss the 'Olive Tree' but you've turned it to anything that comes into your mind that if I follow you down the rabbit hole, I will lose sight of the subject matter myself. So let's move on to something else.

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