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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    A firstfruits harvest happens before the general harvest (first resurrection).
    The general harvest would not be the first resurrection. Obviously that would be akin to the firstfruits, the tern "first" in both should have been a clue on that.


    So you are saying Rev 14:1 is Christ on earth?
    The text says it by listing a mountain in Israel.


    Does Christ come prior to the 7 vials in which these 7 angels are about to pour out in Rev 14? I think not.
    The vials are poured when Christ returns.

    I understand that Jerusalem represents Zion in the OT. But holy Zion is in heaven.
    There is no mountain in heaven. It is only on the Earth where all mountains are.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The general harvest would not be the first resurrection. Obviously that would be akin to the firstfruits, the tern "first" in both should have been a clue on that.
    Yes the general harvest is the first resurrection. The wheat are first the tares thereafter

    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


    These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    So what does it mean when the 144,000 are the first fruits to God REDEEMED for the earth, mean to you?

    The vials are poured when Christ returns.

    There is no mountain in heaven. It is only on the Earth where all mountains are.
    Mt. Zion represents Jerusalem whether old or new. Yes in OT there is a literal Mt Zion in Israel wherein the city Jerusalem reside. This will be replaced with a New Jerusalem which is in heaven. The woman represents this Zion in Rev 21. Notice it will sit on top of a mountain in the NHNE thus Mt. Zion. So yes literally there is no mountain in heaven but there is the city Zion which will be on a mountain in the future..

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

  3. #168
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    So what does it mean when the 144,000 are the first fruits to God REDEEMED for the earth, mean to you?
    Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



    Redeemed means to purchase. They were purchased from the Earth and some men. Redeemed does not mean "moved to heaven". They were purchased from where humans lived, the Earth, they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, and he goes to the Earth from Heaven so they follow Christ to Armageddon and to Jerusalem where they rule with Christ for a thousand years.

    Mt. Zion represents Jerusalem whether old or new.
    No, it is solely a mountain near Jerusalem. It is not in heaven.


    Yes in OT there is a literal Mt Zion in Israel wherein the city Jerusalem reside.
    No, Zion is 3 Kilometers from the city.


    The woman represents this Zion in Rev 21.
    The woman in no way represents the mountain named Sion where Christ stands in Rev 14.

    Notice it will sit on top of a mountain in the NHNE thus Mt. Zion.
    No it doesn't say the city in on a mountain. John is taken to a mountain watch the city come down. The text does not say the city lands on the mountain John stands upon, nor is that mountain identified. You just assume assume assume...which is a bad way to interpret scripture.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    Do you not see "they" being the 144,000 are singing BEFORE THE THRONE. Thus this is taking place in heaven.

    No it doesn't say the city in on a mountain. John is taken to a mountain watch the city come down. The text does not say the city lands on the mountain John stands upon, nor is that mountain identified. You just assume assume assume...which is a bad way to interpret scripture.
    IS 2:2
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

    There are many others.....

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Ross 3421 stated.....
    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    This clearly is before the 2nd coming.

    You said the following response....
    No, it's after the second coming,
    Your claim the Rev 14:1 is the second coming fails on many fronts.

    Rev 14
    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Note the gospel had not yet been preached to all the world thus the end was not yet. So how could you have the 2nd coming prior.

    Matt 24
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    after the harvest was completed
    Note the harvest has not been completed yet.

    Rev 14
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


    The lengths people will go to preserve a false teaching.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Do you not see "they" being the 144,000 are singing BEFORE THE THRONE. Thus this is taking place in heaven.
    The harpers are in heaven before the throne and are singing, the 144k and Christ are on Earth and are not singing, standing on a mountain near Jerusalem. The text says the 144k are learning the song.

    Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    Singers:
    "I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne"

    Learners:
    "no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand"
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The harpers are in heaven before the throne and are singing, the 144k and Christ are on Earth and are not singing, standing on a mountain near Jerusalem. The text says the 144k are learning the song.

    Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    Singers:
    "I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne"

    Learners:
    "no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand"

    Well then they learned the song and now are singing in heaven not earth. and don't even say this is not the 144,000. The voice and those harping are the 144,000 which also got victory over the beast..

    1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    The sea of glass is not on earth either.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Your claim the Rev 14:1 is the second coming fails on many fronts.
    Good thing I never said it "is the second coming".



    Rev 14
    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Note the gospel had not yet been preached to all the world thus the end was not yet. So how could you have the 2nd coming prior.

    It doesn't say the gospel was never preached to the world before this angel does it.

    Note the harvest has not been completed yet.
    Rev 14 isn't chronological.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I think you meant to say verse 4 speaks of the first resurrection. So then do only the martyred take part of the first resurrection? Because that is all whom are mentioned.
    No, verse 5 ALSO speaks of the 1st resurrection. It highlights those who DO NOT take part as a contrast.
    Further verse 4 is NOT restrictive, in that it mentions a SPECIFIC group who will take part, but that does NOT rule out others taking part.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    What you are implying is not stated.
    Incorrect it IS stated.

    It says the souls that were beheaded lived a thousand years with Christ. Their souls lived. It says nothing about a resurrection of their bodies in order to reign. The souls of the beheaded reigned the duration that Satan was bound. To be absent from our body is to be present with the Lord. The soul of a righteous man never dies.
    Your soul REQUIRES your body to live. Have you NOT read Genesis 2:7!
    A living soul is one in which the breath of God brings life to a body.

    Your view as stated here means that actually ALL souls are alive now and therefore there is no first resurrection as they never died, which then makes Rev 20:4 a redundant statement.

    As for the rest of your view that can only be discussed in a different section of this forum.
    The SIMPLE statement in Rev 20 is that someone who is dead is NOW alive again and living and reigning. Not as a disembodied spirit, but as a living being, reigning on earth.
    Are you claiming that these martyrs will be floating around as ghosts?
    These are ludicrous claims when considered in any depth at all.

    So yes Rev 20:4 means a resurrection, just as those who are resurrected AFTER the thousand years are also given bodies.
    You AGREE that after the 1,000 years they have bodies, when they have the 2nd (later) resurrection, therefore how can you claim the resurrection of the 1st will be different other than the difference we are told in who is involved!

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, verse 5 ALSO speaks of the 1st resurrection. It highlights those who DO NOT take part as a contrast.
    Further verse 4 is NOT restrictive, in that it mentions a SPECIFIC group who will take part, but that does NOT rule out others taking part.
    Those in verse 4 are not part of the first resurrection. They are a specific group you just can't grasp it. Understand there is a first fruit resurrection before the general resurrection. They are the 144,000.

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    same group here....

    2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    same group here...the 144,000

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

  12. #177

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I never said anything like this so this would be a strawman.


    From what I am able to understand, your whole belief of the (2) separate resurrections of Jesus (before and after) the 1000-years is based on the fact that Rev 20:6 says, "and shall reign with him a thousand years", which is placed after the statement of John, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection". And I can see where this can easily lead you to base your whole eschatology belief as you believe.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    But how do you interpret other scriptures that put both events in one day? Such as below:

    * Especially when Paul explicitly states (verse 10), "in that day." In what day you may ask? "When he (Christ) shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.". And you did describe this as being before the 1000-year period?
    * But the point that I want you put focus on (verse 7), "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels".
    * Then (verse 8), "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God".
    * Continues on (verse 9), "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
    * Did you catch where Paul said, "punished with everlasting destruction"?
    * And again I conclude (verse 10), "When he (Christ) shall come to be glorified in his saints.... in that day."

    The passage starts (verse 5) by his address to the church and his brethren there that are suffering tribulation. So one thing is for certain, we definitely know these are not those "left behind" who are later saved during the 1000-year reign. He is speaking directly to his fellow brethren who will be in the grave at the same time as he himself, awaiting the resurrection in the end days. Then he speaks regarding God recompensing tribulation on those that trouble them. Who are they that trouble them? Sinners? Who will also be in the grave beside Paul and his brethren at the exact same time. Yet, when do you say the vengeance of the sinners will be? After the 1000-year period? Note that we are talking about "everlasting" destruction from the presence of the Lord.

    What does Paul describe next (verse 7)? Revealing the coming of the Lord from heaven with his mighty angels. He explains that while the Lord is here, he will punish those who know not God with everlasting destruction. Then he also concludes (verse 10) and again stresses the fact, "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints in that day."

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  13. #178

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect it IS stated.


    Your soul REQUIRES your body to live. Have you NOT read Genesis 2:7!
    A living soul is one in which the breath of God brings life to a body.

    Your view as stated here means that actually ALL souls are alive now and therefore there is no first resurrection as they never died, which then makes Rev 20:4 a redundant statement.

    As for the rest of your view that can only be discussed in a different section of this forum.
    The SIMPLE statement in Rev 20 is that someone who is dead is NOW alive again and living and reigning. Not as a disembodied spirit, but as a living being, reigning on earth.
    Are you claiming that these martyrs will be floating around as ghosts?
    These are ludicrous claims when considered in any depth at all.

    So yes Rev 20:4 means a resurrection, just as those who are resurrected AFTER the thousand years are also given bodies.
    You AGREE that after the 1,000 years they have bodies, when they have the 2nd (later) resurrection, therefore how can you claim the resurrection of the 1st will be different other than the difference we are told in who is involved!
    When Jesus was in the tomb 3 days, He was 3 days in the heart of the earth preaching to imprisoned spirits. Where was his body as he was preaching? Was he floating around down there as a ghost?

    When Saul had spirit of Samuel conjured, was he floating around as a ghost?

    We do know that when we die, we will be raised like unto his glorious body.

    So, I am a little confused by your understanding of the soul when it departs from the body in death while awaiting for the resurrection. So Please, explain a little more how ludicrous these claims are?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    When Jesus was in the tomb 3 days, He was 3 days in the heart of the earth preaching to imprisoned spirits. Where was his body as he was preaching? Was he floating around down there as a ghost?
    No, Jesus was NOT preaching when He was dead. He was lying dead in the tomb.

    I think you are referring to 1 Peter 3:19. Here though the meaning is often taken to mean that Jesus preached (or proclaimed) but the Greek simply means that Jesus' death was a proclamation to the spirits who were in prison. IOW in the Greek it is NOT Jesus HIMself preaching, but that His death heralds, or proclaims what He has done.
    Further we should note WHAT spirits are in prison, and who they are from the CONTEXT of 1 Peter 3, and we read this:
    1Pe 3:20* because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

    Who formerly did NOT obey BEFORE the flood? It is NOT speaking about PEOPLE who have died, but the spirits who disobeyed. We read about them also in Jude:
    Jud 1:6* And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

    When Saul had spirit of Samuel conjured, was he floating around as a ghost?
    Was it actually Samuel? Did Saul see anything, was Saul therefore being mislead by a lying spirit?
    There was no conjuring, but a Medium - who was saying what they saw, and which Saul attributed to being Samuel.

    We do know that when we die, we will be raised like unto his glorious body.
    So, I am a little confused by your understanding of the soul when it departs from the body in death while awaiting for the resurrection. So Please, explain a little more how ludicrous these claims are?
    We will indeed ONE DAY be raised. That Day is stated in 1 Thess 4:
    1Th 4:14* For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.*
    1Th 4:15* For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.*
    1Th 4:16* For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.*

    So the general resurrection from the dead for those in Christ is when Jesus returns. Not before and not after.
    We are NOT raised in a glorious body on the day we die, for then Paul would have said:
    For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will raise those who have fallen asleep and give them a glorious new body when they die.

    I hope you see the difference.

    Also you have moved away from the CLEAR point that in Rev 20 we have some who are resurrected to LIFE in CONTRAST to those who have NOT, who will be resurrected AFTER the 1,000 years. So will those resurrected AFTER the 1,000 years be given bodies. IF you answer yes, then this means that those resurrected BEFORE the 1,000 years also have bodies.

    One final point is that Rev 20 states it is a RESURRECTION, which implies a raising of a body, otherwise it is NOT a resurrection.
    So regardless of whether you can follow my argument or agree with me about those who are dead, the rest of my argument also makes it clear from what IS stated that there are people who are RESURRECTED which means they are given bodies, and this happens WHEN Jesus returns, as 1 Thess 4 states.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Here are some things for you to consider:

    * The soul of the saved that die in Christ, are instantly with Christ at that moment of death. Paul say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He gave no exceptions or intercessions.
    * The soul of a saved person is in the presence of the Lord while he awaits the Resurrected body. Yet the soul will never die.
    * This will not happen until he hath put all enemies under his feet. And until then, he reigns, then cometh the end.

    1 Corinthians 15:
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    It is always a problem when scripture is not fully understood.

    1. Indeed at death, the spirit returns to God. But scripture doesn't say it moves around without a body. IOW, it is only complete after the resurrection when it merges with its spiritual body.
    2. So the argument you are pursuing that the spirit alone is sufficient to reign with Christ is NOT scripturally supported.
    3. Jesus will put ALL his enemies underfoot after the MK when the GWTJ takes place and death (the last enemy is judged).
    4. Yet the church (his saints have already received spiritual bodies at the resurrection and reign with him from the onset of the millennial age.
    5. The problem is that you quote the right scriptures but lack the true understanding of where they fit in the eschatological timescale.

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Yes a spiritual body is given at the resurrection, but not a "body of a spirit".

    We will be like Jesus. Jesus told Peter to handle me. And see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    So no my friend, we will be resurrected to a body just like Christ. A body having flesh and bone, yet incorruptible.

    Luke 24:
    34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
    35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    Glad you concur that we shall receive spiritual bodies at the resurrection. But I have no clue of what you mean by "body of a spirit". If you'll be kind enough to elaborate, I'll be glad to respond.
    You are nearly there, if only you will let scripture interpret itself. Because again and again, you cite the right scripture but leave your readers scratching their heads in confusion with your interpretation thereto.

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