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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

  1. #181
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Their souls weren't dead. Their bodies were dead. Souls do not need a resurrection. To live after being dead means a bodily resurrection. Those that didn't live again were the "rest of the dead" who will bodily rise after the thousand years making the first bodily resurrection occurring before the thousand years as is presented by Rev 20.
    I agree. Very true...

  2. #182
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Well let me say, I can now understand how you believe what you believe. The scriptures in Revelation are not intended to portray a story. They are visions written down as he saw them.

    To view the scriptures as you are, would mean that we have (4) separate 1000-year periods. All these topics are covered separately and one does not lead into the other.

    1st - One thousand years Satan is bound in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3)
    2nd - One thousand years beheaded souls reign with Christ (Rev 20:4-6)
    3rd - One thousand years the rest of the dead lived not again (Rev 20:5)
    4th - One thousand years after the 1st resurrection when they again reigned with Christ (Rev 20:6)

    So then what we have is four 1000-year periods instead of one. I mean we can have (2) first resurrections. We can have (2) separate deaths, one being the lake of fire. Oh but wait, John refers to these both and called the lake of fire the 2nd death. Why would he do that? It's actually the 1st death. In reality, they are both 1st deaths right?

    If your going to apply your logic they way you are, then you have to be consistent across the board. And not pick and choose when you decide to abandon and apply your rules.
    You are right that there are only ONE thousand years, but I'm not sure that ewq1938 is saying differently?

  3. #183
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Now most equate the rest of the dead as all unbelievers.
    Yes, I believe that too. There's no record of a believer that will not participate in the Millennial age.

  4. #184
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Mt Sion is in Israel, on Earth not in heaven.
    You should clarify that there are two. The physical in Jerusalem and the spiritual Mt Sion.

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

  5. #185

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    *

    No, Jesus was NOT preaching when He was dead. He was lying dead in the tomb.
    I disagree with you on this point. Not only I, but about 1/2 of bible scalars and bible experts believe they same. Just type the subject in a search bar and see what pulls up.
    Matthew 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


    Was it actually Samuel? Did Saul see anything, was Saul therefore being mislead by a lying spirit?
    There was no conjuring, but a Medium - who was saying what they saw, and which Saul attributed to being Samuel.

    The woman was in shock and feared when she knew it was Samuel and Samuel knew Saul. So was he mislead by her? Regardless of what you believe, the soul of a righteous man never dies. God gave Adam a Living soul. Only God can kill the soul, as we hear Jesus in the Gospel, to not fear him who can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy body and soul.


    So the general resurrection from the dead for those in Christ is when Jesus returns. Not before and not after.
    We are NOT raised in a glorious body on the day we die, for then Paul would have said:
    For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will raise those who have fallen asleep and give them a glorious new body when they die.

    I hope you see the difference.


    I have never implied that we are raised with a glorious body on the day we die. I do believe when we die "in Christ", our soul departs from the body and goes to Jesus. And on the resurrection, God will raise the dead in Christ to a glorious body. My point of disagreement is what John saw. The bible saids he saw souls. If he really saw resurrected bodies, he would have stated otherwise. The bible does not say their bodies was resurrected before the 1000-year period. This is an assumption to base the idea that a rapture will occur before the millennium. The scripture says the 1st resurrection is after the 1000-years has ended.


    Also you have moved away from the CLEAR point that in Rev 20 we have some who are resurrected to LIFE in CONTRAST to those who have NOT, who will be resurrected AFTER the 1,000 years. So will those resurrected AFTER the 1,000 years be given bodies. IF you answer yes, then this means that those resurrected BEFORE the 1,000 years also have bodies.

    The ones John saw were souls that reign with Christ. Just because they reign does not imply they are singing, dancing, talking and so on. It means their soul is alive and they are with Christ. Until the resurrection of their body. Some of these are probably Paul and the brethren of the church. When Paul addresses the outcome of those who trouble them. when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. Punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. When he shall come to be glorified in his saints in that day.

    Notice he says, "in that day". And the judgment is everlasting. So if this all happens in that day when Christ returns to be glorified in the saints. How do you still believe there is another resurrection?

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    So to conclude, I know there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust. But "in that day".

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    A firstfruits harvest happens before the general harvest (first resurrection).
    The first resurrection actually involved several resurrections. While they are lumped into ONE is because they are all for the church.

    So you are saying Rev 14:1 is Christ on earth? Does Christ come prior to the 7 vials in which these 7 angels are about to pour out in Rev 14? I think not.
    I believe the 144,000 are in heaven. How can they not be when Rev 14:3 says "they are redeemed FROM the earth"?

    Mt Zion represents Jerusalem old or new. Yes Zion represent Jerusalem in the OT but this will be replaced with a New one. Thus the Zion mentioned in Rev 14 is the New Jerusalem in heaven.
    Correct. See Heb 12:22

  7. #187
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    F
    But how do you interpret other scriptures that put both events in one day?
    None of those place the resurrection of the saved and unsaved on the same day.

    Yet, when do you say the vengeance of the sinners will be? After the 1000-year period? Note that we are talking about "everlasting" destruction from the presence of the Lord.
    That is definitely after the thousand years, and after the little season.


    What does Paul describe next (verse 7)? Revealing the coming of the Lord from heaven with his mighty angels. He explains that while the Lord is here, he will punish those who know not God with everlasting destruction. Then he also concludes (verse 10) and again stresses the fact, "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints in that day."

    [B]2 Thessalonians 1:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    This is the vials of wrath following the second coming.

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    "shall be" is future tense and refers to the GWTJ over a thousand years after the second coming and vials of wrath.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #188
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are right that there are only ONE thousand years, but I'm not sure that ewq1938 is saying differently?
    He's creating lots of strawmen is all. A sign of a flawed position.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #189
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You should clarify that there are two. The physical in Jerusalem and the spiritual Mt Sion.

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    There is only one Mt Sion and it is not a spiritual mountain but a real mountain. The verse only speaks of a heavenly Jerusalem not a heavenly mountain.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The first resurrection actually involved several resurrections. While they are lumped into ONE is because they are all for the church.
    can you show that in scripture.

    I believe the 144,000 are in heaven. How can they not be when Rev 14:3 says "they are redeemed FROM the earth"?
    Agree plus they are singing the song of moses in heaven chapter 15.

    Correct. See Heb 12:22

    Thanks for the verse

  11. #191

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    None of those place the resurrection of the saved and unsaved on the same day.

    That is definitely after the thousand years, and after the little season.
    Except he says "in that day,"which is the same exact day of everlasting destruction. Which happens to be the same day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints" .

    You cannot twist this to imply these are not the same day. Coming with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, in that day.

    So yes my friend, that puts both events of the resurrection of the just and unjust on the same day. Which you make clear was after the 1000-year period

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) [B]in that day.

  12. #192
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Except he says "in that day,"which is the same exact day of everlasting destruction. Which happens to be the same day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints" .

    You cannot twist this to imply these are not the same day. Coming with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, in that day.

    So yes my friend, that puts both events of the resurrection of the just and unjust on the same day. Which you make clear was after the 1000-year period

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) [B]in that day.
    Again, the "shall be" is a future reference to their final fate not what happens the day Christ returns. Revelation confirms this is the case so you are merely misunderstanding what Paul is saying and Paul is well known to be difficult to understand correctly so no blame to those that misread it but one should realize their understanding is wrong when it conflicts the order of events laid out in Revelation.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #193

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are right that there are only ONE thousand years, but I'm not sure that ewq1938 is saying differently?
    I was only illustrating a point, that if he applies his logic of putting the events in Revelation in order as they are written. Particularly Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ...., and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    He believes because, "and shall reign with him a thousand years." is written after "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection, that it must have happened in that order. I advised that just because it is written after doesn't mean it didn't happen before. If it had said, afterward, or next, or soon after, or immediately after. Then we know they are intended to be applied in that same order.

    An example; A church group had a bake sale and before they opened to the public, they prayed to Jesus. It would not be untrue to say, "The church had a bake sale: And they pray to Jesus." You could interpret this as occurring afterward. Except it calls both "first resurrection"

    I then stated that if he applies this logic, then he has to apply it in:

    Rev 20:1-3
    Rev 20:4
    Rev 20:5
    Rev 20:6

    Each of these events are separate topics of 1000-year events. Although we all know they are the same period. According to his logic, he would have to put each in event order as written. Each then lead into a different topic and also mention 1000-year periods.

    He picks and chooses when to apply his logic to fit his theory of belief.

    And when it mentions the first resurrection in verse 4 and he applies this to a rapture before the period. Then it mentions again the first resurrection in verse 6, but he says this is really meant to be written as a second resurrection, but someone failed to write it. Yet the writers had no problem getting the first death and the second death numbered correctly.


    So it takes a far stretch of the imagination to twist scripture and scripture logic to make it fit his beliefs.

  14. #194
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    And when it mentions the first resurrection in verse 4 and he applies this to a rapture before the period.
    Except I didn't mention a rapture. This is purely about a resurrection not a rapture.

    Then it mentions again the first resurrection in verse 6, but he says this is really meant to be written as a second resurrection, but someone failed to write it.
    I also never said that either. Please stop making up things and claiming I said them. I said the first resurrection is not applied to "the rest of the dead" and that the verse is improperly composed.

    This is what it actually reads like:


    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



    So it takes a far stretch of the imagination to twist scripture and scripture logic to make it fit his beliefs.
    Most of your complaints were created by your own imagination and not what I ever said.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #195

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Again, the "shall be" is a future reference to their final fate not what happens the day Christ returns. Revelation confirms this is the case so you are merely misunderstanding what Paul is saying and Paul is well known to be difficult to understand correctly so no blame to those that misread it but one should realize their understanding is wrong when it conflicts the order of events laid out in Revelation.
    Yes indeed. It is a future state when Christ returns. Which happens to be the only day Christ returns.

    He says, "when the Lord shall be revealed", both events mentioned directly afterward are in consecutive order connected together and both are in that day. This is as plain English that even a child can understand.
    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


    Paul is plain spoken as any writer in the bible, and Revelation is the most misunderstood book in the bible. Paul does not conflict at all with Revelation. If there is a conflict, then it is you who are conflicted.

    When you say (and you always do), "but it really meant this" or "it really meant that", then this is a sign you probably need to change you belief.

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