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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

  1. #211
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Jesus body was dead 3 days in the tomb. Jesus himself declared this on many passages that on the 3rd day, I will be made whole. But his spirit was alive. As I agree with you, God cannot die.
    The point made is that Jesus WAS dead. He died just like EVERY MAN dies.
    His Spirit went to the Father and His Body was placed in the Tomb and His soul went to Hades.
    The Spirit is NOT the SOUL. These are TWO different words with different meanings.
    The spirit is the part God puts in to make us alive. The soul is the person who we are.

    I don't rely on Bible scholars either. I'm only illustrating a point that just because you believe this doesn't make it true. I do believe he did preach to those who died under law and redeemed those who were found worthy. Not only do believe this, but many others share this viewpoint. I am perfectly OK if you share a different viewpoint and am flexible to your opposing beliefs.
    I cannot discuss with "biblical scholars" I can ONLY discuss with those on this forum and present reasons why. It is those reasons which can then be checked and discussed, not what other "biblical scholars" state.
    Therefore I presented why I disagreed with the view about preaching, and why, to which your answer was not, this is wrong because the Greek does NOT say what you claim, but simply "I am relying on other biblical scholars". This means this particular point cannot then be dealt with. It means that we have to remove this passage from the debate.

    Was the prophecy of Samuel true? Perhaps before Jesus was resurrected, the spirits did remained here. Jesus death and resurrection allowed victory over death in every way, both in spirit and in the resurrection.
    This was the same hope of David as he awaited the Messiah.
    Psalm 16:10
    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    The statement made by the spirit was found to be correct, some of what was stated was not a new prophecy but a restatement of what God had already declared. The rest was self evident what was going to happen without God supporting Saul, and of course Saul by consulting with a medium made this more certain. 1 Sam 28:5 states that Saul was afraid after seeing the Philistine army.
    This didn't require someone with any true prophetic ability.

    Not a single scripture says the soul is separated from the spirit in death. Not a single scripture says the soul is needing to be raised from the dead. In the reference you gave is referring to the resurrection of the body. It does not say the soul sleeps in the ground.
    It says, "concerning them which are asleep". The text says, "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him". Jesus has the souls in his possession. And the ones alive will not prevent them which are asleep. Jesus will raise the dead and reunite the body with soul.
    Incorrect. We are told where the soul goes, which is to Hades / Sheol, whilst we are EXPLICITLY told the spirit goes to God. Therefore UNLESS you are claiming being with God is being in Hades, then you are contrary to scripture.
    Furthermore it does NOT say the souls are in Jesus possession. On the contrary it says those souls God will bring with him, and God is separated from Jesus in this passage.
    Jesus does NOT bring the souls with Himself, instead they RISE and MEET Jesus in the clouds.
    The soul is NOT reunited with the body in the clouds, but the person who is alive will be united with Jesus in the clouds.

    Absolutely not. Jesus clearly teaches that the body is not the soul. What John saw was a soul, without the body. The body was beheaded and dead in the grave.
    Matthew 10:28
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    I did NOT say the BODY is the SOUL. We are made up of Body, Spirit and Soul.
    I said the SOUL is the PERSON, there essence or BEING. Who they are as a person.
    The body is simply a shell in which that person lives. The spirit is simply the power that animates a person as given by God.
    So you aren't actually bringing an argument against my point.

    I do not disagree with any of this. The life of a person is the soul. But the body without the soul is dead. The soul is always alive until God destroys it.
    Matthew 10:28
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    No, the soul is NOT the life of a person. The life of a person is the spirit.
    You see in your verse you should note that our bodies CAN be killed, that is our LIFE taken away. However our souls cannot be destroyed (not killed as souls in themselves have no life) EXCEPT by God. This is not a removal of life alone, but destruction of the very person, so that they cease to exist.

    In this case, their souls were saved. It has nothing to do with the body. The body did nothing to be saved. It's all about the soul. If the soul is saved, then the body will be resurrected to life when Jesus returns.
    Actually yes they were saved, but the USAGE of the word was NOT talking about a disembodied soul, but a living breathing person. They could count the number of people and it was 3,000!
    Now you are getting somewhere when you agree that the body is resurrected when Jesus returns. This is hopeful.

    Correction: In order for the body to live requires a resurrection. The body of Adam was dead until he gave him a Living soul and then breathed life into his nostril. The soul is alive until Jesus destroys it. You are making an assumption in what John saw. The bible does not say what you are asserting. If he indented to express that he saw resurrected bodies, then he would have said otherwise. He said he saw the souls of them that were beheaded. Their bodies were dead in the grave.
    No God did NOT give Adam a living soul, He breathed His spirit into the body and it BECAME a living soul. What we find is that BODY + SPIRIT leads to LIVING SOUL. Remove the body or the spirit and you no longer have a living soul, but simply a soul.

    The scripture does not imply it. You are the one implying it.
    Nope, the SCRIPTURE demands it. You CANNOT live and reign WITHOUT communicating. Please explain how you can live and reign on earth WITH Jesus AFTER He has returned whilst being a disembodied soul. It is a nonsense picture you are creating.

    Not only do I claim it, paul claimed it too. Read below "in that day"
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, in that day.
    What are you saying Paul is claiming?
    This seems to match this:
    Rev 20:9* And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,*
    Yet is this the ONLY time when God takes vengeance?
    No it isn't.
    Rev 19:12* His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.*
    Rev 19:13* He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.*
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.*

    My friend, you can't get more clear than this.
    Indeed, yet you seem to think it means something other than what it plainly states.

    Because you buy into the premil belief, you will away stumble over these passages and scriptures.
    Quite funny really as you haven't answered. Are you TRULY claiming these ALL occur on the SAME Day contrary to the various statements which show it is not?
    I am premil because these are NOT on the SAME day.
    I don;t have any passages to stumble over, just a need for good Biblical consideration of each thing declared.

  2. #212
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    If you think we will have a spiritual body like a spirit, then consider the wise words of Job. Though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God, though my reins be consumed within me.

    Job 19:
    25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

    This leads to my next question for you.
    Before Adam transgressed in the garden, do you believe his body was created corruptible or incorruptible?
    Obviously, you are struggling to come to grips with what a "spiritual body" entails, hence your claim in one hand that we shall receive it at the resurrection and in other, claim we "won't have the body of a spirit". While no one alive can honestly claim a full understanding of what the spiritual body is, we find comfort in scripture that tells us it is the same body that our Lord Jesus has (1 John 3:2).

    I have no idea of what you mean by "body like a spirit"? Our spiritual body will have the ability to defy gravity, go through walls, appear and disappear, etc. Jesus explicitly said that we shall be like the angels (Matt 22:30). Now, if this is what you mean by 'body like a spirit' then you're wrong to deny we won't have it.

  3. #213
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    So which resurrection is the one Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10? The resurrection of the church at Christ' coming, or the one for those who come to faith in the MK?

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    I reiterate that although there are more than just one resurrection at the coming of Christ, they are however classed as the "first resurrection" to separate them from the second which occurs at the GWTJ.

  4. #214

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    *
    I was referring to your previous assertion that the soul will reign without the body. This isn't true.
    When a christian dies, the soul does not die. It is alive with God. Only God can destroy the soul. No souls will be destroyed until judgment of the wicked. Therefore the soul of christians live. The soul is alive. God gave Adam a living soul. If your soul is with God, then you reign with him. This is what John saw. He saw souls of beheaded saints. After the 1000-years is the 1st resurection when their bodies are raised and reunited with their souls.

    Matthew 10:28
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    We reign with Jesus when he returns and by that time, the resurrection has occurred, thereby merging the soul with its spiritual body.
    Yes, we continue to reign when we are resurrected too. The soul is still alive when Jesus brings it with him when we are resurrected.

    Rev 2:25 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:26

    From the above, it's plain that we reign with Jesus only (a) after his return (b) when we have received immortality/spiritual body. The 1st resurrection will occur before the 1000 years commences, not after as you claim.

    Not so my friend. The bible does not say that anywhere that there is resurrection before the 1000-year period. These are only assertions.


    You and I are part of the church, yet we are still here. So who are those that supposedly "rose" when Jesus ascended into heaven? If you are referring to those in Matt 27:52-53, there's no scriptural support that they, like Jesus, ascended into heaven. The general consensus is that like Lazarus, they lived out their lives on earth and died are awaiting resurrection like everyone else.
    The general consensus is wrong. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life. Few are there that find it.
    With all of this that we have been discussing, the general consensus is not what you should be given heed to.

  5. #215

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Obviously, you are struggling to come to grips with what a "spiritual body" entails, hence your claim in one hand that we shall receive it at the resurrection and in other, claim we "won't have the body of a spirit". While no one alive can honestly claim a full understanding of what the spiritual body is, we find comfort in scripture that tells us it is the same body that our Lord Jesus has (1 John 3:2).

    I have no idea of what you mean by "body like a spirit"? Our spiritual body will have the ability to defy gravity, go through walls, appear and disappear, etc. Jesus explicitly said that we shall be like the angels (Matt 22:30). Now, if this is what you mean by 'body like a spirit' then you're wrong to deny we won't have it.
    I have no struggle at all with what a spiritual body entails. I have a problem when people deny the resurrection of the body.

    Jesus told Peter, that he was not a spirit.
    Luke 24:39
    Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    And you didn't answer my question regarding Adam's body.

  6. #216

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I reiterate that although there are more than just one resurrection at the coming of Christ, they are however classed as the "first resurrection" to separate them from the second which occurs at the GWTJ.
    Answer the question then. Which is the one described in 2 Thessalonians 1?

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  7. #217

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    *

    The point made is that Jesus WAS dead. He died just like EVERY MAN dies.
    His Spirit went to the Father and His Body was placed in the Tomb and His soul went to Hades.
    The Spirit is NOT the SOUL. These are TWO different words with different meanings.
    The spirit is the part God puts in to make us alive. The soul is the person who we are.

    Nowhere does the bible say the spirit is at any time separated from the soul. Again, these are your assertions.



    I cannot discuss with "biblical scholars" I can ONLY discuss with those on this forum and present reasons why. It is those reasons which can then be checked and discussed, not what other "biblical scholars" state.
    Therefore I presented why I disagreed with the view about preaching, and why, to which your answer was not, this is wrong because the Greek does NOT say what you claim, but simply "I am relying on other biblical scholars". This means this particular point cannot then be dealt with. It means that we have to remove this passage from the debate.

    We move from it because there is not enough bible references to make a conclusion one way or the other. Only more of your assertions. So you believe whatever you wish.


    The statement made by the spirit was found to be correct, some of what was stated was not a new prophecy but a restatement of what God had already declared. The rest was self evident what was going to happen without God supporting Saul, and of course Saul by consulting with a medium made this more certain. 1 Sam 28:5 states that Saul was afraid after seeing the Philistine army.
    This didn't require someone with any true prophetic ability.

    This is easy to make this assumption after reading about the outcome. Gssssh, yeah of course! Everybody knows that would be the way it would turn out.

    Incorrect. We are told where the soul goes, which is to Hades / Sheol, whilst we are EXPLICITLY told the spirit goes to God. Therefore UNLESS you are claiming being with God is being in Hades, then you are contrary to scripture.
    Yet you provide no scripture reference

    Furthermore it does NOT say the souls are in Jesus possession. On the contrary it says those souls God will bring with him, and God is separated from Jesus in this passage.
    Not so my friend. Pretty sure Jesus has the reign here.

    1 Corinthians 15
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Jesus does NOT bring the souls with Himself, instead they RISE and MEET Jesus in the clouds.
    The soul is NOT reunited with the body in the clouds, but the person who is alive will be united with Jesus in the clouds.

    Jesus will bring the souls with him in the resurrection.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    I did NOT say the BODY is the SOUL. We are made up of Body, Spirit and Soul.
    I said the SOUL is the PERSON, there essence or BEING. Who they are as a person.
    The body is simply a shell in which that person lives. The spirit is simply the power that animates a person as given by God.
    So you aren't actually bringing an argument against my point.

    You said the souls that John saw in Rev 20:4 was the people resurrected. That is not possible to separate the body from the soul. Jesus teaches otherwise.
    Matthew 10:28
    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    No, the soul is NOT the life of a person. The life of a person is the spirit.
    You see in your verse you should note that our bodies CAN be killed, that is our LIFE taken away. However our souls cannot be destroyed (not killed as souls in themselves have no life) EXCEPT by God. This is not a removal of life alone, but destruction of the very person, so that they cease to exist.

    The spirit and soul is never separated. There is no bible references that states otherwise. More of your assertions.

    Actually yes they were saved, but the USAGE of the word was NOT talking about a disembodied soul, but a living breathing person. They could count the number of people and it was 3,000!
    Now you are getting somewhere when you agree that the body is resurrected when Jesus returns. This is hopeful.

    Yes we finally agree! When he returns in the 1st resurrection, which is after the 1000-year period

    No God did NOT give Adam a living soul, He breathed His spirit into the body and it BECAME a living soul. What we find is that BODY + SPIRIT leads to LIVING SOUL. Remove the body or the spirit and you no longer have a living soul, but simply a soul.
    Then the ends justify the means. God still gave it to him.

    Nope, the SCRIPTURE demands it. You CANNOT live and reign WITHOUT communicating. Please explain how you can live and reign on earth WITH Jesus AFTER He has returned whilst being a disembodied soul. It is a nonsense picture you are creating.
    More assertions? I thought you was past this.
    Souls are not destroyed before the final judgment of the wicked. Until then they are with God and alive. Jesus is on the right hand of God. If they are alive with God, then they are alive with Jesus. Being alive in Jesus, they reign.

    What are you saying Paul is claiming?
    This seems to match this:
    Rev 20:9* And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,*
    Yet is this the ONLY time when God takes vengeance?
    No it isn't.
    Rev 19:12* His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.*
    Rev 19:13* He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.*
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.*

    This is the same day of the resurrection of the saints, which is the same day the wicked will be destroyed.

    Indeed, yet you seem to think it means something other than what it plainly states.
    It means exactly what it states. Both events; the resurrection of the just and unjust are on the same day.

    Quite funny really as you haven't answered. Are you TRULY claiming these ALL occur on the SAME Day contrary to the various statements which show it is not?
    I am premil because these are NOT on the SAME day.
    I don;t have any passages to stumble over, just a need for good Biblical consideration of each thing declared

    Paul says it is the same day. "In that day"

  8. #218
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    How can you look at a scripture and boldly deny that it's not saying what it says?
    I don't deny what it says. It says a mountain. The problem is you are seeing something not there. This is what you see:

    But ye are come unto the heavenly mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    But that isn't in the text.

    Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels


    Three different thing mentioned:

    1: mount Sion
    2: the heavenly Jerusalem
    3: angels

    Never is Sion said to be heavenly, or spiritual because it's not. It's an important mountain but it's made of dirt and rocks and located outside of Jerusalem, and will be located outside of new Jerusalem as well. To come unto the mount Sion means you will also have come upon the heavenly Jerusalem also known as NJ.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #219
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I reiterate that although there are more than just one resurrection at the coming of Christ, they are however classed as the "first resurrection" to separate them from the second which occurs at the GWTJ.
    Yes. The "first resurrection" is actually "first group resurrection" so resurrection is singular but the entire event is going to be many individual resurrections.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #220
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I have a problem when people deny the resurrection of the body.
    This is another strawman fallacy. No one has denied the resurrection of the body.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Resurrection isn't mentioned in those verses. The resurrection would have happened prior to the timeframe of those verses. When Christ is revealed from heaven, the dead had already resurrected.


    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Answer the question then. Which is the one described in 2 Thessalonians 1?

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #222

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Resurrection isn't mentioned in those verses. The resurrection would have happened prior to the timeframe of those verses. When Christ is revealed from heaven, the dead had already resurrected.
    When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, to be glorified in his saints.

    Yes my friend, this is the resurrection of the just and unjust.


    2 Thessalonians 1:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  13. #223
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    The point made is that Jesus WAS dead. He died just like EVERY MAN dies.
    His Spirit went to the Father and His Body was placed in the Tomb and His soul went to Hades.
    The Spirit is NOT the SOUL. These are TWO different words with different meanings.
    The spirit is the part God puts in to make us alive. The soul is the person who we are.

    Nowhere does the bible say the spirit is at any time separated from the soul. Again, these are your assertions.
    Assertions based on scripture which states that the spirit is NOT in the same place as the body and that this is NOT the same place as to where the soul fgoes
    There is no specific scripture which says the soul is separated form the spirit. However that is NOT a requirement.
    What IS required is for scripture to EXPLICITLY say where the spirit goes and to say EXPLICITLY where the soul goes, and that this is NOT the SAME place.
    The spirit goes to the Father and the soul goes to Hades.

    We move from it because there is not enough bible references to make a conclusion one way or the other. Only more of your assertions. So you believe whatever you wish.
    There are sufficient scriptures.

    This is easy to make this assumption after reading about the outcome. Gssssh, yeah of course! Everybody knows that would be the way it would turn out.
    Actually it was easy enough for Saul. He was afraid and thought he was going to die and so was desperate for a solution. This is why he did something he knew to be wrong. The passage even reminds us of this fact.

    Yet you provide no scripture reference
    Psa 16:10* For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.

    Psa 49:14* Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.*
    Psa 49:15* But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.

    Psa 89:48* What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?

    Pro 23:14* If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.*

    Ecc 12:7* and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    Act 2:27* For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
    Act 2:31* he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    Furthermore it does NOT say the souls are in Jesus possession. On the contrary it says those souls God will bring with him, and God is separated from Jesus in this passage.
    Not so my friend. Pretty sure Jesus has the reign here.
    How can you say NOT SO, when the words EXPLICITLY state it is so. You CANNOT nullify one scripture with another.

    1 Corinthians 15
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    This passage does NOT say anything about where a soul is, nor does this challenge what I stated.

    Jesus does NOT bring the souls with Himself, instead they RISE and MEET Jesus in the clouds.
    The soul is NOT reunited with the body in the clouds, but the person who is alive will be united with Jesus in the clouds.

    Jesus will bring the souls with him when in the resurection.
    1 Thessalonians 4:14
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    Read it and you will note that VERY CLEARLY Jesus is NOT bringing any souls with Him. It is God who brings them to Jesus.
    The phrasing is:
    them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with Him.

    So those who sleep IN Jesus are the ones who God (the Father) will bring.

    You said the souls that John saw in Rev 20:4 was the people resurrected. That is not possible to separate the body from the soul. Jesus teaches otherwise.
    Matthew 10:28
    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
    I did NOT say it was not possible to separate body and soul either.
    Stop claiming I am saying things I am not.
    The souls John saw are resurrected people because we are told they are resurrected and bu virtue of taking part in the FIRST resurrection.

    The spirit and soul is never separated. There is no bible references that states otherwise. More of your assertions.
    Actually you are making an assertion that spirit and soul is never separated.
    Yet what happened to Jesus? His soul went to Hades, as Peter declares in Acts 2, yet He declared this:
    Mat 27:50* And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
    Luk 23:46* Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

    So Jesus commends His spirit to the Father, which is what Ecclesiastes 12:7 notes. This is the LIFE of Jesus, given into the Father's hands. Yet His soul did NOT go the Father, but went to Hades. Even your own argument has him preaching in prison, which is NOT being with the Father.

    Yes we finally agree! When he returns in the 1st resurrection, which is after the 1000-year period
    No the 1st resurrection happens AT THE START of the 1,000 year period as EXPLICITLY stated in Rev 20.
    ...They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    The coming to life happens BEFORE the 1,000 years, for if not then they could NOT reign for the 1,000 years.

    More assertions? I thought you was past this.
    Souls are not destroyed before the final judgment of the wicked. Until then they are with God and alive. Jesus is on the right hand of God. If they are alive with God, then they are alive with Jesus.
    Being alive in Jesus, they reign.
    Everything you or I put is an assertion. The question is NOT whether it is an assertion, but whether the assertion is what is stated in scripture.
    I also did NOT say souls are destroyed before the final judgement of the wicked. I think you are not paying attention to what I am actually stating. Perhaps you think that is an implication, but then you should show that is what you think I am implying.
    No one is alive UNTIL they are made alive through resurrection. This is what Rev 20:4 states, they were dead and then they are alive and reigning for 1,000 years.
    Jesus is at the MOMENT at the right hand of the Father, but THEN when He returns He will no longer be at the right hand of God.
    What does it mean "to be alive"? It means to be in relationship and interacting with others. To do this does NOT mean to be in th e grave, in Hades. It means to be ineracting with God which means worship, singing, praise, giving glory and what a privilege, reigning with Him.

    This is the same day of the resurrection of the saints, which is the same day the wicked will be destroyed.
    Actually the wicked are killed on that day, they aren't cast into the LoF on that day.

    It means exactly what it states. Both events; the resurrection of the just and unjust are on the same day.
    I agree they are on the same day, but the resurrection of those in Jesus is a different day. we are NOT the just or the unjust, we are the redeemed.

  14. #224
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, to be glorified in his saints.

    Yes my friend, this is the resurrection of the just and unjust.
    No, it isn't. No resurrection is mentioned there. This is perfect example of why your doctrines are errant since you misread and misunderstand scriptures like this. The above scripture does not speak of resurrection at all. It speaks of the second coming, vengeance, and the final fate of the unsaved in the LOF. Paul does not address resurrection there at all.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #225
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, it isn't. No resurrection is mentioned there. This is perfect example of why your doctrines are errant since you misread and misunderstand scriptures like this. The above scripture does not speak of resurrection at all.
    To be glorified in him means to have a body like his glorious resurrected body on the day he comes to eternally separate those who reject him.


    It speaks of the second coming, vengeance, and the final fate of the unsaved in the LOF. Paul does not address resurrection there at all.
    Nice to see you believe that the ungodly face the LOF at his second coming , on that same day we are glorified.



    9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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