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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

  1. #31
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You saved me a bit of typing. The above just crossed my mind before I saw your post here, thus I was thinking about submitting a similar point.
    ……………………………….
    ………………………………………………...

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I can kinda see what you are getting at here, so not entirely then. We have to keep in mind that we are from two different schools of thought here. I'm Premil and you are not.
    Well parralling the heads and horns with the dragon and the beast proves the dragon was in the pit.,


    Dragon

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    Beast rising up

    and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,


    Would not the beast have to be the dragon? And then if he is coming up then how can he be standing already on the shore.

    But we need to ask why/how this translation error to the dragon standing occurred. Ignorance or planned?

    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well parralling the heads and horns with the dragon and the beast proves the dragon was in the pit.,


    Dragon

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    Beast rising up

    and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,


    Would not the beast have to be the dragon? And then if he is coming up then how can he be standing already on the shore.
    Let's look at something first before we conclude this is the case.

    Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    Obviously satan is not depicted anywhere in the pit here. He obviously has access to heaven until this war breaks out, and that he is then cast to the earth. What does he do when he gets cast to the earth?

    Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. This depicts a satan that is on the loose, and not a satan bound in the pit. That logically means only one thing. The only time he can be placed in the pit would have to be after the events recorded in Revelation 12:13-17. And that works out just fine with the following in Rev 20.

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Verse 1 says an angel comes down from heaven and binds him. This obviously tells us the timing is after that of the war in heaven in ch 12. Because if satan still has access to heaven as of Rev 20:1, the angel wouldn't need to come down to anywhere to bind satan. And where does the angel logically come down to? The earth of course. This indicates that satan has to be on the earth then, and this is exactly where Rev 12 places him after having been cast out of heaven. he is then cast to the earth. Yet he is not depicted as bound once he sees he has been cast to the earth, like I already pointed out. If you haven't figured it out already, only Premil can fit these chronology of events, obviously.

  4. #34
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's look at something first before we conclude this is the case.

    Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Obviously satan is not depicted anywhere in the pit here. He obviously has access to heaven until this war breaks out, and that he is then cast to the earth. What does he do when he gets cast to the earth?
    Does not the verse say INTO the earth?

    Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Who are the inhibiters of the sea? Why woe unto them? And it directly states that the devil is coming down to those in the earth AND sea.

    Thus the reason for a previous thread. The pit is beneath the earth which is beneath the sea. Thus inhibitors include those in the pit.

    Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    He couldn't possibly be in the pit at this point either. This depicts a satan that is on the loose, and not a satan bound in the pit.
    Again verse 9 says INTO. Thus above we see him being cast "towards" the earth which does not prevent him from being cast also into it..

    That logically means only one thing. The only time he can be placed in the pit would have to be after the events recorded in Revelation 12:13-17.
    So who is placed in the pit and arises up from and is the 8th king and kills the 2W. The only reference of an entity be cast into the pit is in rev 12.

    Verse 1 says an angel comes down from heaven and binds him. This obviously tells us the timing is after that of the war in heaven in ch 12. Because if satan still has access to heaven as of Rev 20:1, the angel wouldn't need to come down to anywhere to bind satan.
    Cant this biding take place when he is cast into the earth is chapter 12. The confusing this is the 1000 years reference and taking that literally.



    The biggest question you need to answer is who comes up from the pit before the second coming.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let's look at something first before we conclude this is the case.
    David,

    I must admit I have created a dilemma for myself. Not pertaining whether or not the dragon is in the pit before Christ returns but when in Revelation he arises. If depicted in Rev 13:1 which is before the 42 months or after the 1290 days as seen in Rev 11. If I state both are evidence of the devil coming up from the pit then the 42 months and 1260 are different periods. Would mean the devil would come up after the 1260 but before the 42 months but are there really 42 months between the 2nd and third woe?. I have held they are the same period. If they are the same period then the devil does not rise up in 13:1 but is still in the pit, the beast is different, and then rises up after the 42 months (1260 days) and the second beast would be the devil coming up from the pit. Further study required

    Regardless at the time of 13:1 the devil is either coming up from the pit or is in the pit.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Rev 12
    12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.




    Once satan is cast down he knows he only has a short time left.
    He then fails to sweep away the woman as the earth helps the woman. The world doesnt seem to be on board with him.
    He plans a deception.
    He stands on the sea shore and oversees the beast that will cause all on the earth to eventually worship him..
    satan has therefore been restrained for a long time now, from going forth in all power in his little season , as the manifesting of the man of sin / beast has been restrained.


    2Thess 2
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Rev 12
    12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.




    Once satan is cast down he knows he only has a short time left.
    He then fails to sweep away the woman as the earth helps the woman. The world doesnt seem to be on board with him.
    He plans a deception.
    He stands on the sea shore and oversees the beast that will cause all on the earth to eventually worship him..
    satan has therefore been restrained for a long time now, from going forth in all power in his little season , as the manifesting of the man of sin / beast has been restrained.


    2Thess 2
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
    When do you conclude satan is initially cast down? Because before he is cast down he would still have access to heaven, thus wouldn't be in the pit. And once he is cast down, he wouldn't have great wrath while being bound in the pit. That only makes sense if he's not in the pit at the time. So the way it looks to me, the only place his initial binding can possibly fit is after the time of his wrath. But if you disagree, and I'm certain you do, where else could it possibly fit then, if not after his time of wrath?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    When do you conclude satan is initially cast down? Because before he is cast down he would still have access to heaven, thus wouldn't be in the pit. And once he is cast down, he wouldn't have great wrath while being bound in the pit. That only makes sense if he's not in the pit at the time. So the way it looks to me, the only place his initial binding can possibly fit is after the time of his wrath. But if you disagree, and I'm certain you do, where else could it possibly fit then, if not after his time of wrath?
    Right after Jesus accention like rev 12 says. Satan is cast out when the kingdom of god is preached which stops the deception of Satan

    Jesus tells us this happened when the deciples came back from preaching the kingdom of god

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    When do you conclude satan is initially cast down? Because before he is cast down he would still have access to heaven, thus wouldn't be in the pit.
    Cast down because of the cross. He can no longer accuse the brethren as the blood of Christ has atoned for their sins. Where does that leave him but bound on the earth until the appointed time of mass deception due to apostacy.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Cast down because of the cross. He can no longer accuse the brethren as the blood of Christ has atoned for their sins. Where does that leave him but bound on the earth until the appointed time of mass deception due to apostacy.
    Jeff, you are an intelligent person. Yet you are obviously not thinking some of these things through. Why would you want to contradict logic? Logic says satan wouldn't be in the pit before the war in heaven since he still has access to heaven during that time. Logic also says he wouldn't be in the pit if he is cast out of heaven, having great wrath at the time, realizing he has but a short time. Where does that logically leave an era of time for a thousand years to take place in this present age then, thus the logic you are contradicting?


    I would think that until the war in heaven takes place satan has access to heaven in the meantime. This would have to include from the beginning of time until this war in heaven when he is initially cast out. His thousand year binding can't fit anywhere in that period of time then. This at least clearly tells us his initial binding HAS to be meaning a time post this war in heaven.

    When he is initially kicked out though, whenever that takes place, he is not then bound in the pit, he is instead in war mode knowing he has but a short time. A thousand years, especially the way Amils understand a thousand years, where they take it to literally mean thousands of years, doesn't sound like a short time to me.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    satan has access to heaven. A war in heaven eventually takes palce. satan is cast out of heaven unto the earth, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Seriously then, where can a period of a thousand years possibly fit in here? It can't fit before the war in heaven. It can't be when he is cast to the earth since the text doesn't allow for a period of time when he doesn't have great wrath. He would not have great wrath while bound in the pit. That only makes sense if he is not in the pit at the time. The only place this thousand years can logically fit is after his time of great wrath then.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    I'll end with the following for now since I feel I will have provided ample proof at this point, that it is totally illogical, according to the timeline presented in Rev 12, to fit a period of a thousand years anywhere within Revelation 12:7-17.

    If Amils are correct about the thousand years, the chronology would have to be such.

    A...satan has access to heaven. B...Followed by a war in heaven eventually. C...Followed by satan getting cast out of heaven unto the earth. D...Followed by a thousand years. E...Followed by having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


    The problem with this timeline though, E clearly follows C not D. Therefore there can't even be a D in this timeline involving a thousand years. It contradicts the texts involved in Rev 12.

    The correct timeline appears to be the following then.

    A...satan has access to heaven. B...Followed by a war in heaven eventually. C...Followed by satan getting cast out of heaven unto the earth. D...Followed by having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. E...Followed by a thousand years.

    Now nothing appears to be contradicting the texts in Rev 12. How anyone can still seriously conclude satan is bound in the pit somewhere between Revelation 12:7-17, is beyond me. Yet many still will, regardless. You can count on it.

    Plus let's not forget, the only time period preceding satan's casting out of heaven is when satan still has access to heaven, and that that logically has to involve from the beginning of time up until this war in heaven. Therefore satan's binding has to be after the war in heaven. But I suspect everyone already agrees with that anyway. Yet I feel I need to keep bringing this up since it is his great wrath that immediately follows the war in heaven. There is simply no place to fit a thousand year period in here, where satan wouldn't have great wrath, but would be bound in the pit instead.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    satan has access to heaven. A war in heaven eventually takes palce. satan is cast out of heaven unto the earth, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Seriously then, where can a period of a thousand years possibly fit in here?
    As I said, satan is cast out because of his inability to accuse the Brethren anymore once the blood of Christ has been shed.

    Nothing left for God and satan to talk about as Jesus now has the keys of death and all authority.

    He goes after the woman with limited success but fails to completely sweep her away as the earth comes to her aid. He stands on the sea shore awaiting the beast that will lead the world to worship him.

    A thousand plus years PASS BEFORE HE IS ABLE TO GO FORTH IN ALL POWER OF DECEPTION when the restraining influence is lifted at the end of days.



    It can't fit before the war in heaven. It can't be when he is cast to the earth since the text doesn't allow for a period of time when he doesn't have great wrath. He would not have great wrath while bound in the pit. That only makes sense if he is not in the pit at the time. The only place this thousand years can logically fit is after his time of great wrath then.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post

    A thousand plus years PASS BEFORE HE IS ABLE TO GO FORTH IN ALL POWER OF DECEPTION when the restraining influence is lifted at the end of days.



    .
    Your timeline is still illogical according to Rev 12:7-17. You're inserting a thousand years that the text in Rev 12:7-17 is not even seeing. There is no thousand years in view anywhere between Rev 12:7-17.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Edit...…………...
    Please omit the last paragraph above as it is a quote from divaD.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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