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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    I could be wrong here about what some ppl might or might not conclude, so not trying to speak for anyone, but I would think no one would agree that it's logical to place the binding of satan prior to the war in heaven. That obviously means it has to fit somewhere after the war in heaven then. If it wasn't for the fact that satan's wrath and his waging war with others is what follows the war in heaven, it could maybe fit here immediately after the war in heaven. Yet it logically can't though. That only leaves one option remaining. It fits after the time of his wrath.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    So we can have symbolism

    A Woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet and 12 stars
    A red dragon who’s tail swipes a third of the stars out of the sky to the earth
    A bottomless pit
    A dragon who is also a serpent who has 7 heads and 12 horns and 7 crowns
    A dragon who will try to eat a child when he is born

    But all of a sudden this symbolisms now becomes literal
    A great chain
    And physical binding

    That doesn’t make sense how can the great chain not be the power of the gospel?

    You make a good point about the symbolism, I'll give you that. I might even be inclined to agree with you entirely if it wasn't for the fact what the timeline in Rev 12:7-17 is revealing.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    So we can have symbolism

    A Woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet and 12 stars
    A red dragon who’s tail swipes a third of the stars out of the sky to the earth
    A bottomless pit
    A dragon who is also a serpent who has 7 heads and 12 horns and 7 crowns
    A dragon who will try to eat a child when he is born

    But all of a sudden this symbolisms now becomes literal
    A great chain
    And physical binding

    That doesn’t make sense how can the great chain not be the power of the gospel?
    The problem with the chain being a symbol for the gospel, in case you hadn't noticed, that chain is removed from satan entirely once the thousand years finish. How could it still be a symbol for the gospel when it would no longer be applicable to satan once he is loosed?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Are you meaning histemi? My Strong's has stood in Rev 13:1 as histemi

    histemi
    his'-tay-mee
    a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare tiqhmi - tithemi 5087.
    That is the word found in the TR (which is the source for the KJV), but in Majority Text (which is used for ESV and others it is a different word.)
    The KJV has part of Rev 12:17 as the start of Rev 13:1.
    Here is the Latin:
    Rev 13:1* et vidi de mare bestiam ascendentem habentem capita septem et cornua decem et super cornua eius decem diademata et super capita eius nomina blasphemiae*

    This is not agreeing with the KJV but with the ESV.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well I am doing some research on the matter. One thing for sure is the following...

    "It should be noted that in neither the Latin nor any Greek manuscript does the word "dragon" appear in the text numbered as verse 12:18. The NASB and other NA-based versions sometimes insert it so that the verse makes more sense on its own."

    The KJV does not have a verse 18 as they include it in 13:1. The greek word for stand has been found in both versions first and third person. It does appear the newer translations insert dragon and the third person. More investigation to come.
    There is NO Rev 12:18 (except in the Latin Vulgate).

    Here is the Latin:
    Rev 12:17* et iratus est draco in mulierem et abiit facere proelium cum reliquis de semine eius qui custodiunt mandata Dei et habent testimonium Iesu

    Here of course it mentions the dragon (draco).
    However in the portion immediately after this - whether at the start of Rev 13:1 or the end of 12:17 we have this:
    et stetit super harenam maris*

    My understanding is that stetit is in the THIRD person singular and therefore is NOT referring to John, who refers to himself in the FIRST person singular.

    I agree the word "dragon" does NOT appear in the phrase which is in question - that is the NIV and others simply clarifying (and why I don't like those translations).
    However the word in the Greek IS in the THIRD person singular in the oldest manuscripts and seems to be connected with the subject of chapter 12.

    There is a further reason, which is that the beach is the demarcation between sea and land, and the first beast arises out of the sea and the other out of the land.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Right after Jesus accention like rev 12 says. Satan is cast out when the kingdom of god is preached which stops the deception of Satan

    Jesus tells us this happened when the deciples came back from preaching the kingdom of god

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
    This is a problem for you then, as Luke 10:18 is BEFORE Jesus died. Further Rev 12:7 doesn't say Satan is cast out when Jesus ascends. It has Satan cast out AFTER His death AND AFTER the testimony of His people. Yet no one had given testimony about Jesus BEFORE His ascension, but rather 10 days afterwards.
    So the EARLIEST possible moment is at Pentecost, which then means Luke 10:18 is NOT speaking about Satan being cast out of Heaven at that time, nor at His ascension.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If you mean me, did I see post 38. No I didn't as of yet, or if I did, it's already slipped my mind as to what you said in it.

    Still though, satan is bound in the pit during the thousand years. Any great fury he might have, it wouldn't be when he is bound in the pit, it would be when he isn't bound in the pit. I don't know why anyone would not want to at least agree with that.
    Because if the binding is from the gospel enlightened ones satan can still deceive the enlightened ones. Satan can't do anything by himself all he can do is put ideas into people minds and temp them then it is up to the individual to act or not to act on them

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I could be wrong here about what some ppl might or might not conclude, so not trying to speak for anyone, but I would think no one would agree that it's logical to place the binding of satan prior to the war in heaven. That obviously means it has to fit somewhere after the war in heaven then. If it wasn't for the fact that satan's wrath and his waging war with others is what follows the war in heaven, it could maybe fit here immediately after the war in heaven. Yet it logically can't though. That only leaves one option remaining. It fits after the time of his wrath.
    His banishing from heaven is apart of his binding. After being cast out of heaven the thousand years starts and carries on till the Holy Sprit holds back right before the end of our world.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The problem with the chain being a symbol for the gospel, in case you hadn't noticed, that chain is removed from satan entirely once the thousand years finish. How could it still be a symbol for the gospel when it would no longer be applicable to satan once he is loosed?
    Because the gospel advances when the Holy Spirit moves in people but when He stops satan will be unbound

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My understanding is that stetit is in the THIRD person singular and therefore is NOT referring to John, who refers to himself in the FIRST person singular.

    I agree the word "dragon" does NOT appear in the phrase which is in question - that is the NIV and others simply clarifying (and why I don't like those translations).
    However the word in the Greek IS in the THIRD person singular in the oldest manuscripts and seems to be connected with the subject of chapter 12.
    According to the Nestle-Aland apparatus, the KJV/TR reading is found in the majority of Greek texts, the 10th century uncial 051, as well as in a number of Latin, Syriac, and Coptic (Egyptian) manuscripts. Even though Uncial 051 itself dates to the 10th century, is actually a copy of a 6th or 7th century commentary on Revelation by Andrew of Caesarea (563-637), the author of the only complete Greek commentary on Revelation that we have.
    The NASB/NA26 reading, on the other hand, is found in the Sinaiticus (ca 330-360), Alexandrinus (ca 400-440), and Vaticanus Codices (ca 300-325), the 3rd century P47 papyrus fragments, as well as other Greek, Latin, and Syriac manuscripts.



    Reviewing the chapter in context we can determine the Codex Sinaiticus which was recently found....is inaccurate. I would not hang your hat on this manuscript as there is wide speculation it is a forgery. But below should determine the correct translation.

    How can the dragon be standing on the sea shore AND both coming up from the sea? Are there two beasts both with 7 heads and 7 horns. Of course not thus the beast coming up from the sea is the dragon.

    Furthermore, as pointed out some entity does come up from the pit rev 11 and Rev 17, who can this possibly be other than the dragon.

    AND using the proper translation KJV we do see the dragon cast INTO the earth Rev 12, other versions omit this word.

    There is a further reason, which is that the beach is the demarcation between sea and land, and the first beast arises out of the sea and the other out of the land.
    I think it has to do with who they are. Only spirits can come up from the sea, pit. Man himself comes up from the earth. Thus the first beast spirit, the 2nd man. Sin = son of sin. Perdition = son of perdition.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I don't know that I can disagree, regarding the power of the gospel being the chain that bound Satan.

    There are several passages that suggest that when the man of sin, son of perdition is revealed, that no flesh will be saved. Perhaps this is what breaks the chain of Satan?

    Jesus said that during the days of tribulation, "because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." He also says, "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:"

    Matthew 24:
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



    Apostle Paul also teaches what will happen to those who received not the love of the truth in the end of days. Suggesting they won't be saved and will be sold into the delusion and deception of the man of sin, when he is revealed. In fact it is God that caused them to be blinded to the truth; "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



    If we put the events in order the way they occurred in Revelation, then it seems we can see a pattern regarding an absence of repentance.

    We can read in passages of Revelation that during the time when the 6th angel with the trumpet sounded (2nd woe). By this time, the son of perdition is revealed. It says that the remainder of those that were not killed by the plagues of the four angels did not repent of their evil works.

    Revelation 9:
    20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
    21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.



    We know approximately when the son of perdition is revealed, is around the same time the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit. He killed the two witnesses. Perhaps the gospel of the two witnesses was the last gospel preached before the Lord destroyed Satan by the brightness of his coming?

    Revelation 11:
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Thanks good sir

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    After being cast out of heaven the thousand years starts and carries on till the Holy Sprit holds back right before the end of our world.
    Assuming that is the case, doesn't it seem more reasonable that the time of satan's wrath fits here then...till the Holy Sprit holds back right before the end of our world. Keeping in mind, Rev 12:12, and that this takes place after the war in heaven. So like I have been pointing out numerous times already, this doesn't allow for a period of time involving satan being bound in the pit, to take place. I still insist that the thousand years are nowhere in view in Rev 12:7-17. And that those verses indirectly cover the beginning of time since the fall all the way up until the end of this age. So IOW...since the fall in the beginning of time, satan has had access to heaven until the war in heaven. After the war in heaven, satan has great wrath, because he knows he has but a short time. Where in any of this can a period of time fit where he doesn't have great wrath, but is bound in the pit instead?

    I follow your timeline above, yet it doesn't appear to match the timeline in Rev:12:7-17 though.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I could be wrong here about what some ppl might or might not conclude, so not trying to speak for anyone, but I would think no one would agree that it's logical to place the binding of satan prior to the war in heaven. That obviously means it has to fit somewhere after the war in heaven then. If it wasn't for the fact that satan's wrath and his waging war with others is what follows the war in heaven, it could maybe fit here immediately after the war in heaven. Yet it logically can't though. That only leaves one option remaining. It fits after the time of his wrath.
    Logically IF you consider the 1000 years as literal. If not then the dragon being cast into the earth can occur right after the war. Again what would be the purpose to just be thrown down to the earth? A place he already had access to deceive..

    So a 1000 years in the pit is represented by 3.5 on earth. So right after the war Rev 12, Rev 20:1-6 occurs then Rev 13:1 is Rev 20:7 and so on.


    Also I will throw this out which I have not used yet...why is the woman protected from the "face" of the serpent for 1290 days? Because he is in the pit. Is this why he spews water out towards the woman, and is water really the spirits seen in Rev 9 coming up from the pit?

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Assuming that is the case, doesn't it seem more reasonable that the time of satan's wrath fits here then...till the Holy Sprit holds back right before the end of our world. Keeping in mind, Rev 12:12, and that this takes place after the war in heaven. So like I have been pointing out numerous times already, this doesn't allow for a period of time involving satan being bound in the pit, to take place. I still insist that the thousand years are nowhere in view in Rev 12:7-17. And that those verses indirectly cover the beginning of time since the fall all the way up until the end of this age. So IOW...since the fall in the beginning of time, satan has had access to heaven until the war in heaven. After the war in heaven, satan has great wrath, because he knows he has but a short time. Where in any of this can a period of time fit where he doesn't have great wrath, but is bound in the pit instead?

    I follow your timeline above, yet it doesn't appear to match the timeline in Rev:12:7-17 though.
    The casting out of heaven is the start of the 1000 year binding but he can be bound and still pour out his wrath through the ones without the Holy Spirit

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is a problem for you then, as Luke 10:18 is BEFORE Jesus died. Further Rev 12:7 doesn't say Satan is cast out when Jesus ascends. It has Satan cast out AFTER His death AND AFTER the testimony of His people. Yet no one had given testimony about Jesus BEFORE His ascension, but rather 10 days afterwards.
    So the EARLIEST possible moment is at Pentecost, which then means Luke 10:18 is NOT speaking about Satan being cast out of Heaven at that time, nor at His ascension.
    The preaching of the kingdom of God is what holds satan back it binds him. Whenever Gods kingdom spreads satans kingdom is pushed back thus the disciples in Luke 10 were preaching the kingdom of God. What Jesus said that He saw (and Jesus did say it so it is true) was symbolic for satans kingdom reducing

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