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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

  1. #121
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    The inhabiters of the sea are fish and other living creatures. It is indeed a time of woe for every living thing in the sea.
    I would say your kidding, but your serious….

    Those inhibitors are of the sea which is under the earth (Hell) are of the dead.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

  2. #122
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    If Satan himself entered a man then it is Satan in a mans body.



    I agree he is not in hell yet. This will happen prior to the 2nd coming per rev 12 and not after Christ returns in a supposed 1000 years.

    Hell and LOF are different.

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


    The second beast rev 13 is that little horn (11th horn).
    Yes Satan is in the mans body but Satan wouldn’t be that man

    The man still has the choice of authority to choose over his body

  3. #123
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The man still has the choice of authority to choose over his body
    I don't think so...….


    Yes Satan is in the mans body but Satan wouldn’t be that man

    I think he would.....

  4. #124
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Are you saying the dragon due to your bible translation? Did you know the KJV says John is standing?
    Yes ESV says the dragon and adds a note that the manuscripts vary. I don't personally see that either sentence changes the meaning of the passage/vision, so am fine with either.

    Could not Satan give him his power while still in prison?
    This is goes too far into the hypothetical for my liking. I just try to stick with what the text says or doesn't say.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  5. #125
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yes ESV says the dragon and adds a note that the manuscripts vary. I don't personally see that either sentence changes the meaning of the passage/vision, so am fine with either.
    Well it does actually. There is a motive I feel for the change. You see those who promote a literal 1000 years must have the dragon standing on the shore as they cannot have him being in the pit twice.

    You may not understand Satan's importance to maintain a literal 1000 year period. For when Satan returns claiming to be God he can't bring with him a NHNE thus the literal 1000 period wherein a NHNE is delayed allows him to still claim God without conflict.

    You probably don't think it is this involved but it is...…..not to mention Rev 22:17.

  6. #126
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I don't think so...….





    I think he would.....
    Then why does the bible call Judas Judas after Satan entered him?

    Do you think Satan had remorse when the bible says that Judas did?

    Do you think that Satan died when Judas died?

  7. #127
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Well it does actually. There is a motive I feel for the change. You see those who promote a literal 1000 years must have the dragon standing on the shore as they cannot have him being in the pit twice.
    I lean Amil myself, but I'd imagine a Premil could just say the visions are not all chronological - which would be true anyway.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I would say your kidding, but your serious….
    Those inhibitors are of the sea which is under the earth (Hell) are of the dead.
    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    The DEAD do NOT inhabit the sea.
    To "Inhabit" means to LIVE in a place!
    The dead do NOT live in the sea. They are DEAD.

    So yes I am serious.
    Also hell is from hole in the ground which therefore is NOT the sea, but the earth.
    The pit is not in the sea, nor in the earth.

  9. #129

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You see those who promote a literal 1000 years must have the dragon standing on the shore as they cannot have him being in the pit twice.
    Very good point.

    Other conflicts or dilemma with the 1000-year millennial reign occurring after the rapture of the church are listed below (Points 1-4). But according to common premil belief or similar variations, the church will be rapture, and Christ will return to Earth and set up a physical Kingdom on earth and will reign for a 1000 years. Of course only the saints will be raptured. But the unsaved will continue to live out their lives on earth as normal mortal human beings until after the 1000 year millennial period ends. Then after the 1000 years has ended, Satan will be loosed from the pit and shortly after, the Lord will destroy him and cast him into the lake of fire.

    Points:
    1) Immediately after the days of the tribulation period, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Also, with the sound of a trumpet they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Heaven and earth shall pass away. So, how can a kingdom can be established on a heaven and earth that is passed away (Matthew 24:29-35)?
    2) How is this physical kingdom going to be established on an Earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12)?
    3) How are the unsaved that are not raptured going to breath with no heaven or atmosphere? Remember, they were departed as a scroll (2 Peter 3:10 & Rev 6:14)? The event in Rev 6:14 occurred on the 6th Seal. Most who believe as premil, do believe the 7 seals are all opened before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.
    4) How will any mortal human be alive during the millennial after the rapture has occurred? There will be no more time. The Lord ended all time (Rev 10:6). And likewise, most who believe as premil, do believe the events in Rev 10:4-6, which are the sounding of the 7 trumpets are all sounded before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.


    Matthew 24:
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    2 Peter 3:
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Revelation 6:14
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Revelation 10:
    4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
    5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

  10. #130
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    Points:
    1) Immediately after the days of the tribulation period, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Also, with the sound of a trumpet they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Heaven and earth shall pass away. So, how can a kingdom can be established on a heaven and earth that is passed away (Matthew 24:29-35)?
    2) How is this physical kingdom going to be established on an Earth that has been melted with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10)? Or how do they live with heavens flaming and on fire, being dissolved (2 Peter 3:10-12)?
    3) How are the unsaved that are not raptured going to breath with no heaven or atmosphere? Remember, they were departed as a scroll (2 Peter 3:10 & Rev 6:14)? The event in Rev 6:14 occurred on the 6th Seal. Most who believe as premil, do believe the 7 seals are all opened before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.
    4) How will any mortal human be alive during the millennial after the rapture has occurred? There will be no more time. The Lord ended all time (Rev 10:6). And likewise, most who believe as premil, do believe the events in Rev 10:4-6, which are the sounding of the 7 trumpets are all sounded before the 1000-year millennial reign occurs.

    I agree with the above, let me add some more....


    1. The resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day and not 1000 years apart.
    2. A belief in a literal 1000 years then insists there are 2 little seasons.

  11. #131

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3502016]


    I agree with the above, let me add some more....


    1. The resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day and not 1000 years apart.
    2. A belief in a literal 1000 years then insists there are 2 little seasons.
    Excellent points!

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The DEAD do NOT inhabit the sea.
    To "Inhabit" means to LIVE in a place!
    The dead do NOT live in the sea. They are DEAD.
    Spirits inhabit and rise up from the sea.

    Also hell is from hole in the ground which therefore is NOT the sea, but the earth.
    The sea is on top of this hell hole.

    The pit is not in the sea, nor in the earth.
    O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

  13. #133
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Spirits inhabit and rise up from the sea.
    Nope, they don;t inhabit the sea.

    The sea is on top of this hell hole.
    Nope, by definition, the hole is in the ground, not in the sea, this is why in the passage in Revelation which you quoted about the souls in the sea, it mentions hell separately.

    O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.
    Not the same word for pit. A different place, just like hell and the LoF are different places.

  14. #134
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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post


    I agree with the above, let me add some more....


    1. The resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day and not 1000 years apart.
    Rev 20 shows that is quite wrong.

    2. A belief in a literal 1000 years then insists there are 2 little seasons.
    Neither a literal or symbolic thousand years creates two little seasons. There is only one little season and it is after the thousand years is over and Satan is released from his prison.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #135

    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    ross3421 wrote:
    I agree with the above, let me add some more....

    1. The resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day and not 1000 years apart.


    ewq1938 wrote:
    Rev 20 shows that is quite wrong.
    How does Rev 20 show it wrong, that he resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day and not 1000 years apart? The only thing that I can read in this chapter is regard to what John saw in: verse 4, which were the "souls" of dead people. These were all dead people who were beheaded and martyred for the witness of Jesus. They reigned with Christ a thousand years, until the end of time while awaiting the first resurrection (in verse 5), which is the resurrection of their bodies. As Paul said, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 CORINTHIANS 5:8)".
    verse 5: The rest of the dead (who died as sinners) did not reign with Christ for 1000 years and did not live until after the 1000 years were finished. This is the 1st resurrection.

    So, I fail to see how this does anything but prove that the resurrection of the godly and ungodly happen on the same day, so please explain?

    Revelation 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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