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Thread: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

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    Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Of course I side with John.

    Well I was debating an issue with another brother when he quoted from the NASB that the "dragon" was the one standing. I shocked to say the least! For the KJV and older versions have "John" standing on the sand of the sea. I mean John was on the island of Patmos surrounded by sea. This is a major disparity between versions to say the least. Someone is wrong and grossly wrong. Furthermore, the Greek for dragon is nowhere found in the text thus it appears the add was a man made decision.


    Thoughts?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Of course I side with John.

    Well I was debating an issue with another brother when he quoted from the NASB that the "dragon" was the one standing. I shocked to say the least! For the KJV and older versions have "John" standing on the sand of the sea. I mean John was on the island of Patmos surrounded by sea. This is a major disparity between versions to say the least. Someone is wrong and grossly wrong. Furthermore, the Greek for dragon is nowhere found in the text thus it appears the add was a man made decision.


    Thoughts?
    This is not even worth entertaining is it? It seems obvious that the beast is not standing upon the sand of the sea, while at the same time seeing itself rise from the sea. Jesus wasn't giving any of these visions to the beast, he was giving them to John, thus John is the speaker in that verse.

    Which makes better sense?


    And John stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea


    or...


    And the beast stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Of course I side with John.

    Well I was debating an issue with another brother when he quoted from the NASB that the "dragon" was the one standing. I shocked to say the least! For the KJV and older versions have "John" standing on the sand of the sea. I mean John was on the island of Patmos surrounded by sea. This is a major disparity between versions to say the least. Someone is wrong and grossly wrong. Furthermore, the Greek for dragon is nowhere found in the text thus it appears the add was a man made decision.


    Thoughts?

    do you think John was seeing the natural things with his natural eyes? Or is he talking about the sea in his vision that recurs? The sea before the throne? Then the sea mixed with fire....then the sea that is no more?


    it seems as if he's talking about the ocean waters around him in just that one place, why does he then later say " and there was no more sea? Isn't it more of a spiritual vision in the heavens? And he's seeing how those things affect the world?

    I'm. It sure we can understand revelation with logic and geography. But it's more of a spiritually discerned thing.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    I will go with the commentator who indicates the Dragon stands on the sea shore, and not John. John may be viewing this, however, from the perspective of Satan's master plan. Satan is directing empires to rise up out of the sea, which is the nexus of international trade and imperial power.

    The Mediterranean Sea, at the time of the writing, was the center of the Roman World, and as such, these empires and their heirs rise up out of that part of the world, to control the land masses in that region. Israel was on the Mediterranean coast, and was controlled by these various powers.

    To the present day that part of the world has the dominant civilization, which has extended from the old Roman imperial Tradition. Europe is still the power broker of the world, and holds sway over other great powers of the world. This is where, I believe, Satan will make his last stand, as he directs the rise of the Antichrist and his Confederation.

    The rise of modern paganism out of the old Christian civilization has come from Europe. Communism was developed there, along with Religious Liberalism and Deistic Humanism. It will not be long before full grown AntiChristianity rises up out of the sea of Roman Civilization to lead the world to Armageddon.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Of course I side with John.

    Well I was debating an issue with another brother when he quoted from the NASB that the "dragon" was the one standing. I shocked to say the least! For the KJV and older versions have "John" standing on the sand of the sea. I mean John was on the island of Patmos surrounded by sea. This is a major disparity between versions to say the least. Someone is wrong and grossly wrong. Furthermore, the Greek for dragon is nowhere found in the text thus it appears the add was a man made decision.


    Thoughts?
    I was somewhat tired last night when I initially read the OP. After looking at it fresh today, and then looking at my response again, apparently I misunderstood the OP altogether. For some reason I was thinking you were meaning the beast that rises is also standing on the shore. I now see you were clearly meaning the dragon instead. Disregard my initial post then, it's not relevant in this case.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Scratch that. Bad information.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    The answer is here:
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    Who is the he in this verse?
    Is it Jesus?
    Those who keep the commandments?
    The dragon?

    The clear and simple answer is the dragon. It certainly is NOT John.

    Rev 13:1* And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.*

    Here however it speaks of John seeing something - the beast rising out of the sea, the sand of which the dragon is standing on. No mention in this verse where John is.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The answer is here:
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    Who is the he in this verse?
    Is it Jesus?
    Those who keep the commandments?
    The dragon?

    The clear and simple answer is the dragon. It certainly is NOT John.

    Rev 13:1* And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.*

    Here however it speaks of John seeing something - the beast rising out of the sea, the sand of which the dragon is standing on. No mention in this verse where John is.
    John is obviously the speaker in that verse. So why is the text saying...And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw...where 'I' can only be referring to John in that case? If instead the dragon was meant, why doesn't the text at least say the following...And the dragon stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw...or maybe....And it stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw?


    IMO Scripture4all typically has pretty accurate translations. The following is how they translate it. http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...Tpdf/rev13.pdf

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    John is obviously the speaker in that verse. So why is the text saying...And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw...where 'I' can only be referring to John in that case? If instead the dragon was meant, why doesn't the text at least say the following...And the dragon stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw...or maybe....And it stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw?


    IMO Scripture4all typically has pretty accurate translations. The following is how they translate it. http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...Tpdf/rev13.pdf
    David, certain versions NASB and NIV do say dragon was standing...…. I was in shock of this translation thus the thread.

    NASB
    13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the [a]seashore.
    Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

    NIV
    13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name

    Amplified
    13 And the [a]dragon (Satan) stood on the sandy shore of the sea.
    Then I saw a [vicious] beast coming up out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten royal [b]crowns (diadems), and on his heads were blasphemous names.

    FHG is using the ASV

    ASV
    1 and [a]he stood upon the sand of the sea.
    And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    John is obviously the speaker in that verse. So why is the text saying...And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw...where 'I' can only be referring to John in that case? If instead the dragon was meant, why doesn't the text at least say the following...And the dragon stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw...or maybe....And it stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw?

    IMO Scripture4all typically has pretty accurate translations. The following is how they translate it. http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...Tpdf/rev13.pdf
    My quote was from the ESV. It basically seems to depend on whether you think the TR is the perfect authoritative source for translating the Bible.

    In the KJV we have what in 13:1 what is put with 12:17 in other versions.
    Let me put them together for you:

    KJV
    Rev 12:17 & 13:1* And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.*And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.*

    ESV
    Rev 12:17*& 13:1 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

    The word from the Interlinear for stood is:
    ἐστάθη
    estathē

    This is the 3rd person singular and so is "he".

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    David, certain versions NASB and NIV do say dragon was standing.... I was in shock of this translation thus the thread.
    The manuscripts where these Scriptures are initially derived, do they have the dragon being the one standing in that verse? That's what counts, what was in the original manuscripts, or at least the manuscripts closest to the originals.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    John is obviously the speaker in that verse. So why is the text saying...And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw...where 'I' can only be referring to John in that case? If instead the dragon was meant, why doesn't the text at least say the following...And the dragon stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw...or maybe....And it stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw?
    Some versions do say dragon, others say I ,or he stood. Some omit the verse altogether.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013:1
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My quote was from the ESV. It basically seems to depend on whether you think the TR is the perfect authoritative source for translating the Bible.

    In the KJV we have what in 13:1 what is put with 12:17 in other versions.
    Let me put them together for you:

    KJV
    Rev 12:17 & 13:1* And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.*And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.*

    ESV
    Rev 12:17*& 13:1 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

    The word from the Interlinear for stood is:
    ἐστάθη
    estathē

    This is the 3rd person singular and so is "he".

    I do at least admit what you submit here makes sense. Whether you are correct or not, I haven't fully made my mind up about yet.

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Some versions do say dragon, others say I ,or he stood. Some omit the verse altogether.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013:1
    The oldest translation KJV says John. So how did they think it John and some 300+ years later now some think it is a completely different person?

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    Re: Rev 13:1 Is John or the Dragon standing on the sea shore?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The answer is here:
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
    yes ,I posted this yesterday on Ross's other thread.

    Here however it speaks of John seeing something - the beast rising out of the sea, the sand of which the dragon is standing on. No mention in this verse where John is.

    John was caught up in the Spirit to see these things. I cannot imagine him being physically taken to a sea shore to see a physical beast rise up out of it.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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