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Thread: understanding the revelation....

  1. #16

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    This is what I mean about they didn't really see Gods ways or his will under Moses his mint ration was unto death...

    “But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


    For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.


    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

    Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *3:7-18‬ *KJV‬‬



    the Old Testament laws is to look at God through a veil, you see like a rough draft of what God wills and desires of his people, and because of the darkness of thier hearts and not really seeing his glory, they have no hope , like what we have of being transformed or born again through the gospel, which is not veiled but to see Jesus and his doctrine is to see the true God

  2. #17

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    So John is seeing the first covenant sealed or veiled no one could open and look into it, being sinners. Which the law is for the condemnation of sin. After the wrath of the sealed book is poured out, then the Angels ( who has all the appearance of Jesus clothed with a cloud, legs of fire, a voice like a lion roaring....it's John representing his disciples being sent into all the world all people nations, tongues....this is the commission of his disciples. Remember Jesus was sent to Israel only, and then he sent his word through the disciples into all the world.....which is why he's sent to everyone and not only Israel now, this could happen only after Christ, the lamb, was seated at the right hand of God.


    notice the book is in the right hand of God? And Jesus is seated at the right hand of God?

    well, the book of the law in the Old Testament was placed to the side of the ark of the covenant, which the ark of the covenant, was where God dealt with them, it was his throne in the encampment, the mercy seat upon the ark, that's where Gods glory dwelt. And the law was placed beside the ark not for salvation but for accusation against the people.


    Take this book of the law, and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
    **Deuteronomy‬ *31:26‬ *KJV‬‬

    note the law was there for a witness against the sinners....now we know because of the gospel Jesus is at Gods side for this purpose

    “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    **Romans‬ *8:34‬ *KJV‬‬


    Jesus fulfilling the law, was for the purpose of removing the condemnation of the law over believers, and to pour our the wrath of the law upon the unrepentant, because we all understand all of Gods words must be fulfilled.

  3. #18
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Another thing I see in your words there, what God said he would do to them , he says through prophecy, that the purpose of scattering them into all the nations of the earth, is so the law , and those judgements would be spread throughout the earth. Wherever the Jews go, they take the law of Moses with them, in this way it is preached in the world as a witness, and where the law goes, follows the curse of the law.
    You bring up a good question--Why did God scattered the Israelites in times of disobedience? It was, I believe, in order to show them that they are acting as pagans, and needed to live among pagans to experience the negative elements of paganism--not just in their own society, where there are friendlies, but also, in foreign lands, where they will suffer the true abuses of paganism.

    And when God sends judgment upon the Israelites, not just in Israel, but also in foreign lands, He does so either to correct them or to destroy them in their obstinacy. In the same way, God will destroy the pagans in foreign countries who do not respond to the Law of God.

    As you indicated, Israel, who went into exile in foreign countries, had groups who were willing to repent and to bring back the testimony of the Law. This brought foreigners into contact with God's Law, and made them even more answerable to God than they already were.

    So, the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse were preparing for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. And part of the process was judging the world, whose political systems were resistant to the Law of this Kingdom. It brought judgment first to Israel, and afterwards, to the whole world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    just another thought there I see, you know the beast who looks like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon? Do you think this is most likely a false church system? Claiming to be of Christ, yet denying his words and speaking lies and false doctrine?
    Yes, I'm a long-time Protestant who has been exposed, all my life, to the idea that Catholicism has elements of corruption within it. At some point in the future, we will get other corrupt popes, as Luther saw in his own day. One of these popes will possibly be the False Prophet. Or, as others have said, it could be an Islamic Prophet.

    The key to understanding this may be the 2 horns "like a lamb." This suggests, to me, a Christian subversion, and not an Islamic entity. But it isn't clear to me at this point.

  4. #19

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I just want to sort of toss this out there I think if you will consider this open minded you may at least get a few reasons to re think......the example here , the four creatures around the throne, thier spirits, the first four seals... again, this is just my own personal belief that the bible , interprets the bible there's more to this example but.....



    "And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.


    Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
    **Zechariah‬ *6:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬......continue to see they go to,the four corners of the earth...

    Ezekeils vision of Gods throne...


    ‬"Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.


    As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.


    ....As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.


    Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:5, 10, 18, 20‬ *KJV‬‬

    Johns vision of the throne of God...


    “....and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:6-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.


    And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *6:1-5, 7-8‬ *KJV‬‬






    "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,”
    **Revelation‬ *7:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
    **Revelation‬ *7:3‬ *KJV‬‬




    “And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    **Revelation‬ *9:13-15, *KJV‬‬


    Okay so....here's what God had been saying since he gave Israel the law.....I'll lead back to the law itself saying this...
    ‬‬


    “Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.


    So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the Lord have spoken it.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *5:11-12, 17‬ *KJV‬‬




    And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:”
    **Jeremiah‬ *29:18‬ *KJV‬‬






    “And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *24:10‬ *KJV‬‬




    “For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
    **Ezekiel‬ *14:21‬ *KJV‬‬


    Where does all this come from?




    “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals......And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:1, 7‬ *KJV‬‬




    here's what is written in the law just a few samples ....just one of several examples, including famines....


    “But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; <<<< they didn't.


    I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.


    And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.


    I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

    And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

    And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:14, 16, 18, 22, 25, 33‬ *KJV‬‬


    famine also is in this chapter of Leviticus, also in other places in the law....


    Just offering, a line of thinking to consider when you are studying revelation. There's always things that help understand the symbology in these heavenly visions usually some other prophet has seen a vision almost identical, while there are sometimes slight changes, but often in the o.t. They will see for instance " two olive trees" and then ask the Angel " what are these?" And are answered.

    the he bible really really helps , when trying to understand the bible.....at least that's what I believe .God bless
























    ‬‬
    Although related, Zechariah, Ezekiel and John saw completely different things.

    Zechariah saw a chariot of horses while Ezekiel saw the likeness of living creatures that are also in the likeness of man. But, John saw beasts in and about the throne.

    The man sits on horses. Beasts carry the man.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  5. #20
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Although related, Zechariah, Ezekiel and John saw completely different things.
    Well stated! We can get an understanding of one form the other, but they certainly aren't the same.

  6. #21
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well stated! We can get an understanding of one form the other, but they certainly aren't the same.
    Your opinion.

    They all relate to the end times; what else?

  7. #22

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Although related, Zechariah, Ezekiel and John saw completely different things.

    Zechariah saw a chariot of horses while Ezekiel saw the likeness of living creatures that are also in the likeness of man. But, John saw beasts in and about the throne.

    The man sits on horses. Beasts carry the man.

    no not unrelated at all. They aren't simply repeating what other guys saw, it's just like the gospels, you have Matthew saying " the kingdom of heaven" while Luke says " the kingdom of God" you have many different details of the exact same things. People describe things differently , and they were seeing things from different perspectives but all of it is slowly unfolding through those prophecies.

    if you get hung up on words, rather than the point of course it's totally different and unrelated. Many think the same way about this

    “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
    **Matthew‬ *4:17‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
    **Mark‬ *1:15‬ *KJV‬‬


    I've heard how the kingdom of heaven is one thing, the kingdom of God another, because people are looking at the words not understanding people say things differently, describe events differently.

    if you and I and two others were somewhere and a complex event happened, we are all going to have different words describing the same things, we're all going to have details that the others may not have....it works the same way with prophecy, people can think there's no relation, but frankly understanding revelation , is found in the other prophecies different details of the same things and at different times those things have importance as they unfold.

    Revelation

    “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *11:3-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

    Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
    **Zechariah‬ *4:3, 11-12, 14‬ *KJV‬‬


    different wordings different times. The two golden pipes he sees, are the two golden candlesticks John sees, the two olive trees are the same John sees. So who are they?

    “And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.”
    **Matthew‬ *17:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    Moses was anointed for the law which witnesses of Christ, Elijah was the anointed of the prophets which witness of Jesus Christ the lord of all the earth....


    always remember also, the n.t. Is in Greek and translated from....the o.t. Is in Hebrew and translated from. A different word or two doesn't make it different.

    or another example

    “As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:10‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:7‬ *KJV‬‬


    Both were seeing a vision of God and the throne.....do you suppose it's different because John says " calf" while says " ox" or because John says " a flying eagle" and ezekeil says " eagle"


    a more complete understanding is found for revelation including the seals, when one looks for what's happening in the visions of other prophets, it's not a coincidence that John makes so many references to old prophecies....or in the case there of the two witnesses , that's a direct reference to Zechariah's vision, John is certainly referring to Zechariah's prophecy because he simply says " these are the two olive trees, and candlesticks standing before the lord of the earth"

    Zechariah is the one who saw those things and asked what they were and who they were, John is speaking from the knowledge of those things.....always revealing more.

  8. #23

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You bring up a good question--Why did God scattered the Israelites in times of disobedience? It was, I believe, in order to show them that they are acting as pagans, and needed to live among pagans to experience the negative elements of paganism--not just in their own society, where there are friendlies, but also, in foreign lands, where they will suffer the true abuses of paganism.

    And when God sends judgment upon the Israelites, not just in Israel, but also in foreign lands, He does so either to correct them or to destroy them in their obstinacy. In the same way, God will destroy the pagans in foreign countries who do not respond to the Law of God.

    As you indicated, Israel, who went into exile in foreign countries, had groups who were willing to repent and to bring back the testimony of the Law. This brought foreigners into contact with God's Law, and made them even more answerable to God than they already were.

    So, the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse were preparing for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. And part of the process was judging the world, whose political systems were resistant to the Law of this Kingdom. It brought judgment first to Israel, and afterwards, to the whole world.



    Yes, I'm a long-time Protestant who has been exposed, all my life, to the idea that Catholicism has elements of corruption within it. At some point in the future, we will get other corrupt popes, as Luther saw in his own day. One of these popes will possibly be the False Prophet. Or, as others have said, it could be an Islamic Prophet.

    The key to understanding this may be the 2 horns "like a lamb." This suggests, to me, a Christian subversion, and not an Islamic entity. But it isn't clear to me at this point.

    yes brother I agree with the top response there very much .judgement originally was upon the earth itself through Adam, then was flooded at the time of Noah....When the law came and the Hebrews were separated into God, they then became ultimately how the law and its curse was sent into the earth. By the time one gets to Jeremiah and those times God is making it more clear that one of the purposes of them being punished so harshly, and spread into all nations, was to bring the world into judgement through thier disobedience. Israels separation was always meant to spread them into the earth to offer both salvation to those who repent, and wrath upon the unrepentant. It's " how" he has executed the judgement....

    prophecies like this one ( which you might read from the beginning and notice a few connections to the things we see in revelation regarding the cup,of wrath and fornication...

    “And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

    For thus saith the Lord God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

    Then took I the cup at the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the Lord had sent me: To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

    And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Gaza, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, And all the kings of Tyre, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

    Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *25:13-18, 20-27‬ *KJV‬‬



    so when we see “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *6:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    things like this have deep understanding coming from the prior prophecies, for instance there we see God foretelling that he would send a sword among all nations. What I mean to say is the process of this, begins by sending a sword after Israel and scattering them into all nations, and the sword pursues them into those nations bringing along with it, the curse of the law upon all people.

    what Jeremiah is speaking of begins just one small example

    “And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:32-33‬ *KJV‬‬

    as for the other type of curses there you and I have already doscussed the four sore judgements promised in the law

    “For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
    **Ezekiel‬ *14:21‬ *KJV‬‬

  9. #24

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well stated! We can get an understanding of one form the other, but they certainly aren't the same.

    we're on the end times brother, they were even in the days revelation was written




    “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *10:11‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
    **Hebrews‬ *9:26‬ *KJV‬‬

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
    **Hebrews‬ *1:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    but to understand this matters much' God doesn't see time the same as we do.

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:8-10‬ *KJV‬‬


    a lot of people put a lot of importance on measurements of time in prophecy " 42 months" or " times time and a half time"
    We're not able to calculate Gods timing on things, even Jesus didn't know when the day and hour of the end was. It's really really important to understand the world is already in chaos has been since Christ rose up. We're not going to see the end coming with our natural eyes Jesus said it will be just another normal day life going on as usual.

    “And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
    **Luke‬ *17:26-30‬ *KJV‬‬


    we're not going to see a dragon falling or a giant sea beast rise up, we're not going to see anything suddenly change...because it's been perpetually changing and happening since the days of John, and Paul and Peter and them.....the world is in terrible shape right now , wars and battles on every land, hate , division, death, diseases, famines on entire continents.....the things in revelation many of them are going on now have been for ages now, it's just that sometimes we don't look outside our own neighborhoods.....

  10. #25
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yes brother I agree with the top response there very much .judgement originally was upon the earth itself through Adam, then was flooded at the time of Noah....When the law came and the Hebrews were separated into God, they then became ultimately how the law and its curse was sent into the earth. By the time one gets to Jeremiah and those times God is making it more clear that one of the purposes of them being punished so harshly, and spread into all nations, was to bring the world into judgement through thier disobedience. Israels separation was always meant to spread them into the earth to offer both salvation to those who repent, and wrath upon the unrepentant. It's " how" he has executed the judgement....

    prophecies like this one ( which you might read from the beginning and notice a few connections to the things we see in revelation regarding the cup,of wrath and fornication...

    “And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

    For thus saith the Lord God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

    Then took I the cup at the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the Lord had sent me: To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

    And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Gaza, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, And all the kings of Tyre, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

    Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *25:13-18, 20-27‬ *KJV‬‬



    so when we see “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *6:8‬ *KJV‬‬


    things like this have deep understanding coming from the prior prophecies, for instance there we see God foretelling that he would send a sword among all nations. What I mean to say is the process of this, begins by sending a sword after Israel and scattering them into all nations, and the sword pursues them into those nations bringing along with it, the curse of the law upon all people.

    what Jeremiah is speaking of begins just one small example

    “And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:32-33‬ *KJV‬‬

    as for the other type of curses there you and I have already doscussed the four sore judgements promised in the law

    “For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
    **Ezekiel‬ *14:21‬ *KJV‬‬
    Good post. I think God has the right to judge all the earth with or without the Law. But God, in His kindness, has put His Law, and His Gospel, out there, to show that men are unrepentant and to grant repentance to those who are willing.

  11. #26

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good post. I think God has the right to judge all the earth with or without the Law. But God, in His kindness, has put His Law, and His Gospel, out there, to show that men are unrepentant and to grant repentance to those who are willing.
    amen it belongs to him, in my belief all he reveals to us in the bible , is for our benefit. He has the right to just lay waste to it and start over....but he's good and he truly loves us.

    the law to me in a simple analogy is like

    if you have twin 5 year old boys. You put them in identical seperate rooms, give them both paper and color crayons. One, you sit and explain " don't write on the walls, if you do I'm going to take away your crayons and paper. The other, you just give them the crayons and paper and let them into the room.

    which of the two is it just to punish if both wrote on the wall? Of course the one whom you explain the rule or law to. The other is doing it in ignorance and it's kind of your fault as the parent for not instructing them. I believe the law is for that purpose. While the gospel comes as both have written all over the walls, and says " I forgive you for writing on the wall, lets wash it together, and now I'm gonna teach you how to draw a masterpiece on your paper"

    in my firm belief God was all about redemption from the fall of man, but in order that all men receive the gospel, all need to know the law which shows us the truth that we must have the gospel, because we failed under the law. You know in almost every nation the basic laws are the same murder , theft, rape, false witness those kinds of things are well known to be wrong. Sort of shows the conscience of man has some good left in us, even a Muslim, or Buddhist nation have the same basic laws. The governments are often corrupt, but the laws they instill whether people obey them or not are basically in line with much of the Ten Commandments. Concerning moral behavior.

  12. #27

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You bring up a good question--Why did God scattered the Israelites in times of disobedience? It was, I believe, in order to show them that they are acting as pagans, and needed to live among pagans to experience the negative elements of paganism--not just in their own society, where there are friendlies, but also, in foreign lands, where they will suffer the true abuses of paganism.

    And when God sends judgment upon the Israelites, not just in Israel, but also in foreign lands, He does so either to correct them or to destroy them in their obstinacy. In the same way, God will destroy the pagans in foreign countries who do not respond to the Law of God.

    As you indicated, Israel, who went into exile in foreign countries, had groups who were willing to repent and to bring back the testimony of the Law. This brought foreigners into contact with God's Law, and made them even more answerable to God than they already were.

    So, the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse were preparing for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. And part of the process was judging the world, whose political systems were resistant to the Law of this Kingdom. It brought judgment first to Israel, and afterwards, to the whole world.



    Yes, I'm a long-time Protestant who has been exposed, all my life, to the idea that Catholicism has elements of corruption within it. At some point in the future, we will get other corrupt popes, as Luther saw in his own day. One of these popes will possibly be the False Prophet. Or, as others have said, it could be an Islamic Prophet.

    The key to understanding this may be the 2 horns "like a lamb." This suggests, to me, a Christian subversion, and not an Islamic entity. But it isn't clear to me at this point.

    yes the bottom response there. The two horns I've been considering lately, given the representation of horns throughout prophecy, I'm thinking two kings or rulers.

    I'm not sure if you read any of the discussion concerning the seven horns upon the beast on Daniel and in revelation and then the ten horns, the horns seem to represent kings or rulers always , even the four horns of the altars speak which suggests they are either heavenly beings or also creatures aligning with the four creatires about the throne.

    I was some time ago reading this and began pondering

    “Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.”
    **Daniel‬ *8:3‬ *KJV‬‬

    given the obvious connection between Daniels four beasts with a total of seven heads bearing the same appearance of a lion, leopard and bear....between the beast with seven heads in revelation same amount of horns, same appearance and authority....I began pondering if the two horned ram , has some sort of the same connection with the one with two horns appearing as a lamb.


    haha still haven't really followed up the study been busy with other things, but it bears to me at least a possibility , given the close connection between a few of Daniels visions , and the book of revelation.

  13. #28
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    amen it belongs to him, in my belief all he reveals to us in the bible , is for our benefit. He has the right to just lay waste to it and start over....but he's good and he truly loves us.

    the law to me in a simple analogy is like

    if you have twin 5 year old boys. You put them in identical seperate rooms, give them both paper and color crayons. One, you sit and explain " don't write on the walls, if you do I'm going to take away your crayons and paper. The other, you just give them the crayons and paper and let them into the room.

    which of the two is it just to punish if both wrote on the wall? Of course the one whom you explain the rule or law to. The other is doing it in ignorance and it's kind of your fault as the parent for not instructing them. I believe the law is for that purpose. While the gospel comes as both have written all over the walls, and says " I forgive you for writing on the wall, lets wash it together, and now I'm gonna teach you how to draw a masterpiece on your paper"

    in my firm belief God was all about redemption from the fall of man, but in order that all men receive the gospel, all need to know the law which shows us the truth that we must have the gospel, because we failed under the law. You know in almost every nation the basic laws are the same murder , theft, rape, false witness those kinds of things are well known to be wrong. Sort of shows the conscience of man has some good left in us, even a Muslim, or Buddhist nation have the same basic laws. The governments are often corrupt, but the laws they instill whether people obey them or not are basically in line with much of the Ten Commandments. Concerning moral behavior.
    Yes, I think we may go overboard in reading how Paul describes all men, universally, as despicably wicked. That is his argument in Romans, quoting from the OT. "None are righteous."

    However, as you indicate there is some good in men too. God created us in His own image, and that hasn't changed. With the knowledge of good and evil we may now do either good or evil. What has changed, however, is that no matter how much good we do under God's Law, we remain guilty of sin, because the sin nature has now become a part of us. Animal sacrifices under the Law of Moses could not wash that away--it could only temporarily suspend Israel's judgment.

    And so, the Law showed, as you suggested, what the right thing to do is, what is good, and what the image of God within us has called upon our conscience to do. Even without the Law all of mankind still has a conscience, and knows, to some extent, what is right to do, because "the word of God has gone out to the ends of the world."

    But the Law of God is something God has wanted to be transmitted *via man* so that the Law of God, and the Gospel of Christ, may be reinforced by the testimony of men. This makes it clearer, and it also vindicates the truth that men, despite the Fall, can still testify to the truth and can do good.

    So I agree with you. The Law does reveal the failure of Man, despite his knowledge of the Law. But the message is also that men can still do good, despite their sin nature. They can proceed to enter into a lasting covenant through Christ, not just so that they may do good, but also so that they may achieve relationship with God on an eternal basis.

    A relationship with God is actually what enables us to do good and to have our guilt suppressed. And an eternal relationship with God enables our sins to be disposed of forever. That is what we call "eternal life." That is what the Gospel of Christ proclaims to men. Thanks for your input on this!

  14. #29

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I think we may go overboard in reading how Paul describes all men, universally, as despicably wicked. That is his argument in Romans, quoting from the OT. "None are righteous."

    However, as you indicate there is some good in men too. God created us in His own image, and that hasn't changed. With the knowledge of good and evil we may now do either good or evil. What has changed, however, is that no matter how much good we do under God's Law, we remain guilty of sin, because the sin nature has now become a part of us. Animal sacrifices under the Law of Moses could not wash that away--it could only temporarily suspend Israel's judgment.

    And so, the Law showed, as you suggested, what the right thing to do is, what is good, and what the image of God within us has called upon our conscience to do. Even without the Law all of mankind still has a conscience, and knows, to some extent, what is right to do, because "the word of God has gone out to the ends of the world."

    But the Law of God is something God has wanted to be transmitted *via man* so that the Law of God, and the Gospel of Christ, may be reinforced by the testimony of men. This makes it clearer, and it also vindicates the truth that men, despite the Fall, can still testify to the truth and can do good.

    So I agree with you. The Law does reveal the failure of Man, despite his knowledge of the Law. But the message is also that men can still do good, despite their sin nature. They can proceed to enter into a lasting covenant through Christ, not just so that they may do good, but also so that they may achieve relationship with God on an eternal basis.

    A relationship with God is actually what enables us to do good and to have our guilt suppressed. And an eternal relationship with God enables our sins to be disposed of forever. That is what we call "eternal life." That is what the Gospel of Christ proclaims to men. Thanks for your input on this!

    bro it's a bit concerning to me how you seem to doubt the apostle Paul's conclusions. True he quoted old prophecies saying all have sinned. But it wasn't new doctrine at all. Here is who said it and why Paul comes to the conclusion

    The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    **Psalms‬ *14:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    Paul remember was a Pharisee, he had studied the law and prophets from his birth , a Hebrew of Hebrews , Paul actually says that according to the law he is faultless. It's not as if we now are going to grasp the understanding of the law better than one raised upon its every ordinance and command as a Pharisee. It's advisable in my own humble opinion to see Paul not as a prophet of old where we're not quite in the light so we need to try to re figure out his words , they are the understanding of all those prophets and what they were foretelling. They are the conclusions , coming from a man specifically chosen as the other apostles to set forth the gospel to the world.

    we're meant to learn from them, we shouldn't doubt did you know by the power of the Holy Ghost , Paul healed, drove out demons, even raised the dead? This is proof to us that he was speaking not of a man trying to figure things out, but of the Holy Ghost with power leaving no doubt. The Old Testament is veiled, Paul is speaking from the revelation of the light of Christ, with no veil upon his words. He's very trustworthy , as are all the scriptures. We need not fear Paul's words, or re think and come to different conclusions, it's his job to speak the things to the church that he spoke, as the others. We're meant to subject our minds to the understanding God has given to the church , regarding things of old which men did not understand until Christ came.

    I used to think a lot like you, somewhere along the way God humbled me explaining this same point to me. Turns out I was trying to figure out things that Paul was ordained to reveal in the light of truth. I don't know a time this happened but God gave me a gift , in that through humbling me intellectually, he showed me " just take it all in and believe what's there.

    that's different from using our intellect and reason to try to piece together what things could mean. I could be very wrong, but it seems as if you may benefit from just this thinking I'm trying to share with you. It's not a weakness for us to become first a fool in our own understanding , so that God can build us up on his foundation. It's the way he has chosen, that all may know that without his spirit, we have no hope. Prayer and study sincere desire to let him change our minds and hearts through the word is a fruitful and satisfying endevour.

    I would imagine there were some in the churches when they heard things in his letters probably argued against them , because of thier knowledge and beliefs about the mosaic laws superiority, but Paul was once a Pharisee of the mosaic law, said he was faultless touching the righteousness in it....then says he counts those things but dung, compared to the knowledge of Christ.


    consider what he's saying here


    “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews;

    as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
    **Philippians‬ *3:5-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    is Paul then speaking against the law? Not at all in any way, he praises the law of Moses constantly in his letters. It's only that he was given revelation understanding the laws purpose , is. Ot the same as the gospels. The laws righteousness, is. Ot the same as the gospels, it's the difference between how good man is, and how good God is....man fails God succeeds far beyond anything man can achieve.

    the law is God telling man " you be holy , because I am holy" the gospel is God telling man " now that you know you are a sinner, I will make you holy , because I am holy." I will " call things that are not , as though they were"

    so just as there was darkness, and God called forth light to shine, the gospel calls forth the light to shine in our hearts in Those who will accept it, because the end of the law has left us with no other Hope.....


    the problem of sin exists on mans heart look at mankind just ten generations into this

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
    **Genesis‬ *6:5-6, 8, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    see then before the law came , they according to the word of God thier hearts were only evil continually. Then about five or six generations later Israel is led into Egypt, because thier sin is not yet full. Then about 400 years later comes the law of Moses, in order to begin the process of redemption, by first giving man the knowledge of thier sin, and the result of it. Sin and death are one, death results only from sin. We do now have some goodness in us , that's absolutely correct, it's because we have the knowledge of sin and the understanding it's death through the law. This achieves fear in a man who wants to live , so in his corrupted flesh, he will try to do good knowing sin is death....ultimately it's only the first step of salvation. The result of a sinner at heart, trying to follow perfectly a holy law, will end in death for any man. Even Moses died who mediated this law.

    righteousness must be not a sinner trying to do good, but a born again man with a righteous heart who just does what is in his heart.....that's where the gospel comes in, we take it by faith , knowing his purpose is salvation not death and condemnation. Knowing through his word, we are lost without him, the law of Moses can't save us because it's about sinners , restraining the sin living in our minds and hearts. Eventually the heart wins out a man sins and is condemned.

    the gospel is about dealing with that sinful heart. A man might be an honest guy doesn't lie, and maybe he'd certainly never kill, even maybe he's never stole a thing......but yet he struggles constantly with lust in his heart, he commits fornications , even possibly adultery. This guy is dead under the law, he's condemned. But with the gospel , were taught to hear, accept and keep, follow....he learns the lust within is where the issue and solution lies. If he stands in the light, he'll know " anyone who lists after another has committed adultery in his heart....you must confront it and rid your heart of this lust, because it will lead you to sin , and sin will lead to hell.

    the law doesn't teach that, it says " don't commit adultery" " if anyone commits adultery, they must be stoned and surely killed " but it doesn't offer a solution to the issue of the heart. It's. It meant to solve the issues within us, but is meant to lead us to Christ, through showing us first " there's a big problem here, Gods law condemns me...."oh what a wretched man I am, who shall save me from the body of death? ........I thank God through Christ Jesus ...


    we do have some good in us, but a little good doesn't cut it with God, all the evil is there also. Our rite ousted must surpass the Pharisees righteousness because they were unclean in the heart, to do good grieved them, they did it , but it was against thier nature it was a constant conflict because they refused the gospel

  15. #30
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    bro it's a bit concerning to me how you seem to doubt the apostle Paul's conclusions. True he quoted old prophecies saying all have sinned. But it wasn't new doctrine at all. Here is who said it and why Paul comes to the conclusion

    The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    **Psalms‬ *14:2-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    Paul remember was a Pharisee, he had studied the law and prophets from his birth , a Hebrew of Hebrews , Paul actually says that according to the law he is faultless. It's not as if we now are going to grasp the understanding of the law better than one raised upon its every ordinance and command as a Pharisee. It's advisable in my own humble opinion to see Paul not as a prophet of old where we're not quite in the light so we need to try to re figure out his words , they are the understanding of all those prophets and what they were foretelling. They are the conclusions , coming from a man specifically chosen as the other apostles to set forth the gospel to the world.

    we're meant to learn from them, we shouldn't doubt did you know by the power of the Holy Ghost , Paul healed, drove out demons, even raised the dead? This is proof to us that he was speaking not of a man trying to figure things out, but of the Holy Ghost with power leaving no doubt. The Old Testament is veiled, Paul is speaking from the revelation of the light of Christ, with no veil upon his words. He's very trustworthy , as are all the scriptures. We need not fear Paul's words, or re think and come to different conclusions, it's his job to speak the things to the church that he spoke, as the others. We're meant to subject our minds to the understanding God has given to the church , regarding things of old which men did not understand until Christ came.

    I used to think a lot like you, somewhere along the way God humbled me explaining this same point to me. Turns out I was trying to figure out things that Paul was ordained to reveal in the light of truth. I don't know a time this happened but God gave me a gift , in that through humbling me intellectually, he showed me " just take it all in and believe what's there.

    that's different from using our intellect and reason to try to piece together what things could mean. I could be very wrong, but it seems as if you may benefit from just this thinking I'm trying to share with you. It's not a weakness for us to become first a fool in our own understanding , so that God can build us up on his foundation. It's the way he has chosen, that all may know that without his spirit, we have no hope. Prayer and study sincere desire to let him change our minds and hearts through the word is a fruitful and satisfying endevour.

    I would imagine there were some in the churches when they heard things in his letters probably argued against them , because of thier knowledge and beliefs about the mosaic laws superiority, but Paul was once a Pharisee of the mosaic law, said he was faultless touching the righteousness in it....then says he counts those things but dung, compared to the knowledge of Christ.


    consider what he's saying here


    “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews;

    as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
    **Philippians‬ *3:5-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    is Paul then speaking against the law? Not at all in any way, he praises the law of Moses constantly in his letters. It's only that he was given revelation understanding the laws purpose , is. Ot the same as the gospels. The laws righteousness, is. Ot the same as the gospels, it's the difference between how good man is, and how good God is....man fails God succeeds far beyond anything man can achieve.

    the law is God telling man " you be holy , because I am holy" the gospel is God telling man " now that you know you are a sinner, I will make you holy , because I am holy." I will " call things that are not , as though they were"

    so just as there was darkness, and God called forth light to shine, the gospel calls forth the light to shine in our hearts in Those who will accept it, because the end of the law has left us with no other Hope.....


    the problem of sin exists on mans heart look at mankind just ten generations into this

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
    **Genesis‬ *6:5-6, 8, 12-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    see then before the law came , they according to the word of God thier hearts were only evil continually. Then about five or six generations later Israel is led into Egypt, because thier sin is not yet full. Then about 400 years later comes the law of Moses, in order to begin the process of redemption, by first giving man the knowledge of thier sin, and the result of it. Sin and death are one, death results only from sin. We do now have some goodness in us , that's absolutely correct, it's because we have the knowledge of sin and the understanding it's death through the law. This achieves fear in a man who wants to live , so in his corrupted flesh, he will try to do good knowing sin is death....ultimately it's only the first step of salvation. The result of a sinner at heart, trying to follow perfectly a holy law, will end in death for any man. Even Moses died who mediated this law.

    righteousness must be not a sinner trying to do good, but a born again man with a righteous heart who just does what is in his heart.....that's where the gospel comes in, we take it by faith , knowing his purpose is salvation not death and condemnation. Knowing through his word, we are lost without him, the law of Moses can't save us because it's about sinners , restraining the sin living in our minds and hearts. Eventually the heart wins out a man sins and is condemned.

    the gospel is about dealing with that sinful heart. A man might be an honest guy doesn't lie, and maybe he'd certainly never kill, even maybe he's never stole a thing......but yet he struggles constantly with lust in his heart, he commits fornications , even possibly adultery. This guy is dead under the law, he's condemned. But with the gospel , were taught to hear, accept and keep, follow....he learns the lust within is where the issue and solution lies. If he stands in the light, he'll know " anyone who lists after another has committed adultery in his heart....you must confront it and rid your heart of this lust, because it will lead you to sin , and sin will lead to hell.

    the law doesn't teach that, it says " don't commit adultery" " if anyone commits adultery, they must be stoned and surely killed " but it doesn't offer a solution to the issue of the heart. It's. It meant to solve the issues within us, but is meant to lead us to Christ, through showing us first " there's a big problem here, Gods law condemns me...."oh what a wretched man I am, who shall save me from the body of death? ........I thank God through Christ Jesus ...


    we do have some good in us, but a little good doesn't cut it with God, all the evil is there also. Our rite ousted must surpass the Pharisees righteousness because they were unclean in the heart, to do good grieved them, they did it , but it was against thier nature it was a constant conflict because they refused the gospel
    This is the typical verbiage I get from those who completely misunderstand Paul, and thus, misunderstand the Law. You are trying to adopt NT biblical doctrines without understanding them. You are utterly unable to put together seemingly opposite statements about the Law, reconciling them logically.

    The Scriptures do say that the Law is good. David and Moses said that keeping the Law is good. Jesus taught the obedience of the Law to all of Israel in the days before he went to the cross. You utterly fail to reconcile that with your doctrine of the total depravity of Man.

    But I wish you well, brother. You're at least trying to teach and follow what Paul teaches. And mind you, I also teach and follow what Paul teaches. I just seem to understand what Paul meant, whereas you're only trying to teach what you believe is orthodox doctrine.

    The Law was good. Obedience was good. It did not produce complete depravity in man. Rather, it showed Man his sin so that by faith he would rely on God's word for salvation. The Law pointed the way to God and to His word so that Man might obey the Law.

    The Law, however, was never meant to be the instrument of salvation--only point the way to salvation. In producing faith it showed that salvation would come by faith in what Christ would ultimately do, which was to provide salvation by God Himself.

    You don't understand all these things, and that's fine. Men do get despicably wicked over time, while some maintain their innocence in the eyes of God. The point really is this: no matter how righteous men may become, and they do become that at times--they will never be able to overcome their record of sin, since the sin nature is in them. The only way to cover their record of sin is by what Christ did, and through faith in that.

    As under the Law it is faith in God's word that saves. But it was also necessary to have faith in Christ because he was God's special word in the matter of redemption. We needed God's forgiveness, and God's forgiveness alone. We could not forgive ourselves.

    The Law, as good as it was, could not provide a complete cover for sin, because flawed humanity participated in the Law's atoning process. Only God could fully atone for sin. None of Man's works is part of what brings salvation to Man.

    If you can figure out how we differ, I think you'll see that we both are trying to follow Scriptural teaching. I just think I'm understanding it properly.

    The Law was always designed to provided righteousness. But it was never designed to provide complete atonement. It was only ever a partial atonement.

    Complete atonement had to come by Christ in the same way true righteousness came by the Law only through faith in God's word. Righteousness always has to be rooted in God's word, whether under the Law or in Christ.

    And now that we are in Christ, the Law offers no basis for faith at all, except as a system that falls short of complete atonement. The only system that provides righteousness and atonement today is faith in Christ. There is no longer any capacity for atonement--not even a partial atonement--under the Law. It's time is over.

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