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Thread: understanding the revelation....

  1. #1

    understanding the revelation....

    I just want to sort of toss this out there I think if you will consider this open minded you may at least get a few reasons to re think......the example here , the four creatures around the throne, thier spirits, the first four seals... again, this is just my own personal belief that the bible , interprets the bible there's more to this example but.....



    "And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.


    Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
    **Zechariah‬ *6:1-5‬ *KJV‬‬......continue to see they go to,the four corners of the earth...

    Ezekeils vision of Gods throne...


    ‬"Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.


    As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.


    ....As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.


    Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:5, 10, 18, 20‬ *KJV‬‬

    Johns vision of the throne of God...


    “....and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”
    **Revelation‬ *4:6-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


    And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


    And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.


    And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
    **Revelation‬ *6:1-5, 7-8‬ *KJV‬‬






    "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,”
    **Revelation‬ *7:1-2‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
    **Revelation‬ *7:3‬ *KJV‬‬




    “And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    **Revelation‬ *9:13-15, *KJV‬‬


    Okay so....here's what God had been saying since he gave Israel the law.....I'll lead back to the law itself saying this...
    ‬‬


    “Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.


    So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the Lord have spoken it.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *5:11-12, 17‬ *KJV‬‬




    And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:”
    **Jeremiah‬ *29:18‬ *KJV‬‬






    “And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.”
    **Jeremiah‬ *24:10‬ *KJV‬‬




    “For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
    **Ezekiel‬ *14:21‬ *KJV‬‬


    Where does all this come from?




    “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals......And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:1, 7‬ *KJV‬‬




    here's what is written in the law just a few samples ....just one of several examples, including famines....


    “But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; <<<< they didn't.


    I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.


    And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.


    I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

    And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

    And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.”
    **Leviticus‬ *26:14, 16, 18, 22, 25, 33‬ *KJV‬‬


    famine also is in this chapter of Leviticus, also in other places in the law....


    Just offering, a line of thinking to consider when you are studying revelation. There's always things that help understand the symbology in these heavenly visions usually some other prophet has seen a vision almost identical, while there are sometimes slight changes, but often in the o.t. They will see for instance " two olive trees" and then ask the Angel " what are these?" And are answered.

    the he bible really really helps , when trying to understand the bible.....at least that's what I believe .God bless
























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  2. #2
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Absolutely. Sometimes we forget the OT context for some of the symbolism in the Revelation. The 4 horsemen are bringing judgment upon that part of the world because Israel had turned against their God, and had been dispersed into different parts of the Roman Empire. In order to bring the Kingdom of God back to Israel God's judgments were unleashed upon all the rebellious, both Israel and the Roman world. The 4 horsemen would bring destruction, with all these plagues, until the world was broken, and prepared for the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

    What had initially happened to Israel would happen to the whole world, and the gospel was preached to prepare the Roman world for this reality. Even though Rome was converted to Christianity, paganism remained, and judgment ultimately brought an end to the old Roman government. In the West the Empire fell in 476 AD, and was taken over by barbarians. In the East the Empire fell in 1453 AD, and was taken over by Muslims.

    Since that time Christianity has been challenged by a new paganism in both East and West. In the West the new paganism has taken the form of humanism with its religion of pluralism. And in the East the new paganism has become Communism with its religion of atheism.

    I do think the 4 horsemen are still active, representing angelic judgments against the new forms of Roman Civilization. It is all preparation for the coming of the Kingdom of God, to restore Christian government on the earth.

  3. #3

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    If I may add. Understanding the visions of Ezekiel and of others are very important. The living creatures are as following. They are four and are all connected together, the wings are connected rather they travel as one unit. The spirit are in the star and where the main star goes the other planets and dwarf stars follow. The feet are straight rather the magnet such as earth (dirt) has north pole and south as you know. May I add more the star of Christ it will be in the east this is the sign of His coming.
    16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

    These people are from this star system.

    2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

    3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

    4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

    Christ taking whats his into His Gods House.

  4. #4

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    More over that planet traveling with that star will be destroyed.

    3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
    4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
    5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

    You will hear that crash.

    And when its time are up you will see that affect on earth.


    Revelation 8:7
    The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
    Now you know how the above comes to pass.

    O this may help, Ancient Israel are these people and not of Jacob but before Jacob.

  5. #5

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Absolutely. Sometimes we forget the OT context for some of the symbolism in the Revelation. The 4 horsemen are bringing judgment upon that part of the world because Israel had turned against their God, and had been dispersed into different parts of the Roman Empire. In order to bring the Kingdom of God back to Israel God's judgments were unleashed upon all the rebellious, both Israel and the Roman world. The 4 horsemen would bring destruction, with all these plagues, until the world was broken, and prepared for the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

    What had initially happened to Israel would happen to the whole world, and the gospel was preached to prepare the Roman world for this reality. Even though Rome was converted to Christianity, paganism remained, and judgment ultimately brought an end to the old Roman government. In the West the Empire fell in 476 AD, and was taken over by barbarians. In the East the Empire fell in 1453 AD, and was taken over by Muslims.

    Since that time Christianity has been challenged by a new paganism in both East and West. In the West the new paganism has taken the form of humanism with its religion of pluralism. And in the East the new paganism has become Communism with its religion of atheism.

    I do think the 4 horsemen are still active, representing angelic judgments against the new forms of Roman Civilization. It is all preparation for the coming of the Kingdom of God, to restore Christian government on the earth.

    yes bro, I see a lot of understanding in your words there.

    one thing I see there, I also agree that there is a perpetual aspect of some things in revelation. We tend to try to pin it down to a certain time and event, but like your saying there, I believe it's more of an ongoing unfolding thing in the world then and still happening until the end.

  6. #6

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reese View Post
    If I may add. Understanding the visions of Ezekiel and of others are very important. The living creatures are as following. They are four and are all connected together, the wings are connected rather they travel as one unit. The spirit are in the star and where the main star goes the other planets and dwarf stars follow. The feet are straight rather the magnet such as earth (dirt) has north pole and south as you know. May I add more the star of Christ it will be in the east this is the sign of His coming.
    16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

    These people are from this star system.

    2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

    3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

    4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

    Christ taking whats his into His Gods House.

    Thanks for the addition there ,

    have you noticed this change in the four creatures in the visions of ezekeil he first sees

    “Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

    As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *1:5, 10‬ *KJV‬‬


    then

    “And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.

    And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

    And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *10:10, 12, 14-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    given what's happening on Ezekeils vision, and where he ends up being taken.....do you have any thoughts on the changes of the living creatures appearance?

  7. #7
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    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yes bro, I see a lot of understanding in your words there.

    one thing I see there, I also agree that there is a perpetual aspect of some things in revelation. We tend to try to pin it down to a certain time and event, but like your saying there, I believe it's more of an ongoing unfolding thing in the world then and still happening until the end.
    I agree. After all, the 4 horsemen belong to the 7 sealed scroll. And I believe the scroll refers to the unveiling of the Kingdom of God at the Coming of Christ. What began in the Apostle John's day continues in our day, as we see the world descend into chaos, with increasing judgments from God.

  8. #8

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Absolutely. Sometimes we forget the OT context for some of the symbolism in the Revelation. The 4 horsemen are bringing judgment upon that part of the world because Israel had turned against their God, and had been dispersed into different parts of the Roman Empire. In order to bring the Kingdom of God back to Israel God's judgments were unleashed upon all the rebellious, both Israel and the Roman world. The 4 horsemen would bring destruction, with all these plagues, until the world was broken, and prepared for the coming of Christ's Kingdom.

    What had initially happened to Israel would happen to the whole world, and the gospel was preached to prepare the Roman world for this reality. Even though Rome was converted to Christianity, paganism remained, and judgment ultimately brought an end to the old Roman government. In the West the Empire fell in 476 AD, and was taken over by barbarians. In the East the Empire fell in 1453 AD, and was taken over by Muslims.

    Since that time Christianity has been challenged by a new paganism in both East and West. In the West the new paganism has taken the form of humanism with its religion of pluralism. And in the East the new paganism has become Communism with its religion of atheism.

    I do think the 4 horsemen are still active, representing angelic judgments against the new forms of Roman Civilization. It is all preparation for the coming of the Kingdom of God, to restore Christian government on the earth.

    Another thing I see in your words there, what God said he would do to them , he says through prophecy, that the purpose of scattering them into all the nations of the earth, is so the law , and those judgements would be spread throughout the earth. Wherever the Jews go, they take the law of Moses with them, in this way it is preached in the world as a witness, and where the law goes, follows the curse of the law.


    just another thought there I see, you know the beast who looks like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon? Do you think this is most likely a false church system? Claiming to be of Christ, yet denying his words and speaking lies and false doctrine?

  9. #9

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree. After all, the 4 horsemen belong to the 7 sealed scroll. And I believe the scroll refers to the unveiling of the Kingdom of God at the Coming of Christ. What began in the Apostle John's day continues in our day, as we see the world descend into chaos, with increasing judgments from God.

    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
    **Matthew‬ *5:17‬ *KJV‬‬

    when the lamb appears as slain, it's because Jesus came and fulfilled the laws requirement, no one else ever did. In fact we know all have sinned and fallen short, no one was worthy to open the seals upon the law and distribute the judgements , Jesus overcame sin, therefore he is given the judgements in order to loose the long promised wrath of the law upon the unrepentant.


    “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

    And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:1, 3, 5, 7‬ *KJV‬‬



    “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”
    **Revelation‬ *10:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    .....

  10. #10

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Ezekiel 1 Gods shows Him A star and planets. Ezekiel 8/9/10 destruction and creation of planets and these stars movement in the heavens. Ezekiel 40 and on the New Heaven and Earth the temple of God. Maybe you meant from molten planet to a live planet and people that takes about 1000 years.

  11. #11

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Would you think that Christ took that book from God and gave it to the Angel being it was listed under that verse as you stated above so that he may explain what is to come.

  12. #12

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Then would you think that John returns and speaks also even more so about this

  13. #13

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reese View Post
    Ezekiel 1 Gods shows Him A star and planets. Ezekiel 8/9/10 destruction and creation of planets and these stars movement in the heavens. Ezekiel 40 and on the New Heaven and Earth the temple of God. Maybe you meant from molten planet to a live planet and people that takes about 1000 years.

    I'm not really understanding the planets and stars concept seems pretty foreign to me. I appreciate you taking the time to add your thoughts though, God bless you

  14. #14

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reese View Post
    Would you think that Christ took that book from God and gave it to the Angel being it was listed under that verse as you stated above so that he may explain what is to come.

    the book in the right hand of God is the book of the law of Moses. See in the op how the judgements of the law upon the disobedient, keep coming up in prophecy? Then when the seals are opened out come famine, pestelence ,sword and wild beasts? Those things have been the curse of the law from when it was given.

    we understand who the lamb is, the lion of Judah, the root and offspring of David, that's Jesus. Notice in scripture how Jesus is the only one who could fulfill the law ? That's what your seeing happen in the heavens, Jesus appears after his death and resurrection, having fulfilled the requirement of death through complete obedience to God. It's Christ alone who fulfilled the law, not because he obeyed Moses, but because he obeyed the will of God, even though it took him to the cross and agony. The worst sinners in the law, were killed and then hanged on a tree.

    when you see the lamb appearing as he was slain, having the spirits of God sent into the earth it's this that's happening.

    “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

    And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. <<< the Holy Ghost.see John 14-16

    And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:”
    **Luke‬ *24:46, 49, 51-52‬ *KJV‬‬

    we know this is what John is seeing here's when the Holy Ghost was poured out or " sent into all the earth"

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:30, 32-33, 36‬ *KJV‬‬


    when you see this in revelation, it's John seeing this take place in the heavens, remember he's taken up into the open door in heaven. He's not seeing things on earth, but things in heaven Peter is speaking from the view of earth.


    “And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.


    And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
    **Revelation‬ *5:2-7‬ *KJV‬‬


    only Jesus fulfilled the law, not as most people think, but through his death and being hanged on a tree, that's the end of the law when a sinner dies. Because all people have sinned , no one was worthy to open the seals or judgements promised.
    Death is the culmination of the law of Moses for anyone who sins, Jesus did not sin, so death had no claim upon him. This is why he rose up. Sin is the only reason death exists. In dying for our sins, fulfilling the law, Jesus is worthy having fulfilled the requirements of the mosaic law, and worthy to open the seals of wrath upon sin.

    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
    **Matthew‬ *10:34‬ *KJV‬‬


    through Christ this creation will be destroyed completely, and the new creation will come forth. This world stands condemned, and we look for the new things to come.


    this is what I mean by death is the culmination of the law and how it is fulfilled only through Christ's life and then death and then resurrection. The worst punishment in the law, is death. There's no punishments for after the sinner dies. When a person of the law does, that's the end of the matter. The law has no authority over spirit, it's authority ends with the death of the sinner. It's all it ever gave anyone who served it, even Moses. Notice there's no promise of resurrection, the best promises in the law, are a blessed life on earth with long years, good health , fruitful crops ect....but thier end is the same always, they die and then rest with thier fathers in the grave. Because the law, is not about life, it always ends in death to sinners.



    when Jesus died, he had no sin, therefore death had no claim by Gods word upon him. Because only sin results in death. From the first commandment forward. " of this tree you must not eat for when you do , you will surely die" it's this way through the Old Testament, " the wages of sin, is death" and " death is only the wages of sin" Jesus had no sin, somGods word of death over sin, does. Ot apply to him, his death, is our death to the law....



    the little book opened is the gospel. Sent not only to Israel, but to all nations tou guess kind reds of the earth. Jesus didn't only fulfill the law, he spoke forth the new covenant , and then she'd the blood of the new covenant....just like Moses spoke all the law, and shed the animal blood of that covenant. The little open book is the gospel, the new covenant no longer sealed unto sinful Israel, but now opened unto all the earth. No longer veiled like Moses law, but now open as in a glass, were able to actually see what Gods will is through the gospel.


    only Jesus Christ could do these things because only he is worthy to do so

  15. #15

    Re: understanding the revelation....

    Here's where John gets the view of the sealed book, this shows a lot remember this is after many many years of Israel following false gods and defiling completely the covenant at horeb from Sinai...


    “For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

    And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

    Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.”
    **Isaiah‬ *29:10-14‬ *KJV‬‬



    under the law the people's hearts were darkened, thier sin kept them from coming into Gods presence to understand him. They inherited this nature from Adam. Notice as soon as Adam sins, he hides from Gods presence when he hears his voice he becomes afraid? Now look how they reacted when God spoke to them from Sinai....


    “And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.
    **Deuteronomy‬ *5:24-25‬ *KJV‬‬


    there is a great difference between fearing God unto wisdom, and being afraid of Gods presence because you think if you hear his word, you will die. They had the nature of Adam. He too is afraid when he headers Gods voice come near, because God had told him " you will surely die" it's showing up in thier nature. God is veiled to them because of thier darkened hearts through sin. This is why Jesus says " you must be born again" because if we remain under the law in the nature of sinful mankind who can say " yes Gods law is holy" yet they have to fight against thier nature to " not kill" lie, cheat, commit adultery or worship,other gods ....ect....they are condemned already by thier nature and thier fear of God will consume them.


    Jesus comes inviting the sinners to him, not condemning them , but gently calling them to repentance, he too teaches us to fear the lord, but it's not the same as being terrified to come into his presence as they were. The two covenants are different completely

    “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

    that's the giving of the law from Sinai....


    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
    **Hebrews‬ *12:18-24‬ *KJV‬‬



    that's where Christians come to for Gods ways.

    no one under the law understood or really saw God, his ways were sealed unto them, having been darkened as again, God told them he was going to do when they broke his covenant.....

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