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Thread: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

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    Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    There is many who link Rome to the fourth beast Dan 2. However the fourth beast is a demonic kingdom of Satan upon the earth in the final days.

    The miry clay verses the potter's clay

    Miry clay and the ten toes does not represent a revived Roman Empire. It represents the future demonic kingdom which will pervade the earth prior to the coming of Christ.

    Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided

    Potter's Clay and Iron do not mix, but they will be divided from each other. Why can't they mix? Side note, try at home to mix a clump of clay with iron it will neither mix nor stick to the metal.

    Potter's clay is a reference to believers, God is the potter, we are the clay....

    Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    So there is a prophetic understanding in which Daniel is saying here. The fourth kingdom is of iron and clay as we shall see part "potter's and part "miry". The potter's clay is that part which shall not mix.

    It is divided because under the fourth beast when a person of fierce countenance arises (little horn) people need to chose whom they will serve; God or mammon, Mark or no Mark, beast or Christ. The potter's clay represent those who will not mix with this system and fornicate with this whore nor receive his mark The potter's clay is the believers which shall be on earth during this time. This clay cannot mix.

    Now, let's go to the clay which shall mix......

    Dan 2:41 but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

    Miry - full of, or having the nature of mire; swampy. covered with mire; muddy. "miry clay" or better termed "mud" can mix and stick to iron. You cannot mold mud thus this is not molded by God.

    So where does this "miry" clay come from? The pit.

    Ps 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

    Their father is the devil and molded after him....

    Now we see this "miry" clay mingle with the seed of men. Interesting. The understanding is that this is the demonic indwelling; miry clay from the pit + the seed of men.

    Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves * with the seed of men:


    "As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be".

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There is many who link Rome to the fourth beast Dan 2. However the fourth beast is a demonic kingdom of Satan upon the earth in the final days.

    The miry clay verses the potter's clay

    Miry clay and the ten toes does not represent a revived Roman Empire. It represents the future demonic kingdom which will pervade the earth prior to the coming of Christ.

    Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided

    Potter's Clay and Iron do not mix, but they will be divided from each other. Why can't they mix? Side note, try at home to mix a clump of clay with iron it will neither mix nor stick to the metal.
    The grammar forbids this understanding. Here is Daniel 2:40-44:

    40 "And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."


    Verse 40 introduces "THE fourth kingdom". It's strength is iron. Verse 41 does not introduce a fifth kingdom. The grammar continues to decribe the kingdom of iron. The "THE" before "kingdom" points to an already mentioned kingdom. Then comes more proof. The writer introduces ten toes, part iron and part clay and calls them "these kings". "These kings" are then the "they" of verse 43. Since man is made of clay, the "clay is not the ten kings but the men they mingle with. The iron then are the ten kings. And no wonder Daniel was told to "Seal the Book" UNTIL the time of the end because the first explanation of the ten kings comes only in about 95 AD when John wrote Revelation. And these ten kings are the ones who give the Beast - the last Gentile king - his power.

    The evidence is exclusive. The FOURTH kingdom is the one that exists at the coming of Christ. And the word "revived" is inappropriate. Daniel does not show a demise of the Fourth Kingdom before Christ comes. Neither does history show the demise of the Roman Empire. It VOLUNTARILY changed its soldiers' armor for priestly clothes and slightly change its name from "The Roman Empire" to "The Holy Roman Empire". It exists till today as the most formidable political and religious force on earth. It can finance wars, topple governments and cause insurrection from the pulpit.


    Potter's clay is a reference to believers, God is the potter, we are the clay....

    Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    So there is a prophetic understanding in which Daniel is saying here. The fourth kingdom is of iron and clay as we shall see part "potter's and part "miry". The potter's clay is that part which shall not mix.
    • Sad. If the Potters Clay is the Christians - BEWARE! Christ is about to destroy you - for the WHOLE kingdom is destroyed by God.
    • The Church was not revealed to Daniel (Eph.3:5, 9) so the clay could not be Christians
    • Isaiah 64:8 refers to Israel. Zion and Jerusalem and the Temple are their leading cities (isa.64:9-11)

    May I suggest that you review the evidence and revise your understanding. The fourth kingdom's fundamental element is iron. Iron was used for tools. So the fourth kingdom would be largely COMMERCIAL kingdom. This, Revelation 18 confirms. But IN COMPARISON to gold, silver and brass, IRON is stronger and unbending. Its fundamental element makes for "strength". Whereas Babylon, the gold, ruled for 70 years, Rome ruled for 2,000. So also is Christ's kingdom depicted by iron - unbending strength (Rom.19:15).

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Verse 40 introduces "THE fourth kingdom". It's strength is iron. Verse 41 does not introduce a fifth kingdom.
    Who is introducing a fifth kingdom? The fourth kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. The fourth kingdom is not Rome. You have made it fact that the fourth kingdom is Rome that you cannot see....

    Then comes more proof. The writer introduces ten toes, part iron and part clay and calls them "these kings". "These kings" are then the "they" of verse 43. Since man is made of clay, the "clay is not the ten kings but the men they mingle with. The iron then are the ten kings. And no wonder Daniel was told to "Seal the Book" UNTIL the time of the end because the first explanation of the ten kings comes only in about 95 AD when John wrote Revelation. And these ten kings are the ones who give the Beast - the last Gentile king - his power.
    The ten toes are the same as the ten horns on the dragon (Satan). These are ten kings aligned with the dragon they are part of his government. These ten kings represent falsely the 10 northern tribes of Israel (I understand you wont agree) the two other 2 tribes are on the second beast little horn ie lamb.

    The symbolism of Iron is that this last kingdom is likened unto the KOG which was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron. The 10 kings represent this iron wherein they rule the nations. Israel was to be this iron.

    The FOURTH kingdom is the one that exists at the coming of Christ.
    Agree.

    Neither does history show the demise of the Roman Empire. It VOLUNTARILY changed its soldiers' armor for priestly clothes and slightly change its name from "The Roman Empire" to "The Holy Roman Empire". It exists till today as the most formidable political and religious force on earth. It can finance wars, topple governments and cause insurrection from the pulpit.
    This is due to the fact Rome is not in the picture.

    [*]Sad. If the Potters Clay is the Christians - BEWARE! Christ is about to destroy you - for the WHOLE kingdom is destroyed by God.
    So there we no believers in the entire 4 kingdoms? The kingdoms were destroyed does not mean ALL the people. The time when Christ destroys all these kingdoms the "potters" clay has been removed not by rapture but thru death by this fourth beast.

    May I suggest that you review the evidence and revise your understanding. The fourth kingdom's fundamental element is iron. Iron was used for tools. So the fourth kingdom would be largely COMMERCIAL kingdom. This, Revelation 18 confirms. But IN COMPARISON to gold, silver and brass, IRON is stronger and unbending. Its fundamental element makes for "strength". Whereas Babylon, the gold, ruled for 70 years, Rome ruled for 2,000. So also is Christ's kingdom depicted by iron - unbending strength (Rom.19:15).
    [/QUOTE]

    This is a worldly understanding.

    Biblically this forth kingdom is mentioned as Iron as it will rule the world with a rod (10 kings) of iron.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Who is introducing a fifth kingdom? The fourth kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. The fourth kingdom is not Rome. You have made it fact that the fourth kingdom is Rome that you cannot see....
    On what basis? Nebuchadnezzar is the head. He was a MAN. His kingdom, Babylon, was of MEN. The last kingdom is made of KINGS. The "miry clay" is the "seed of MEN". It is you that overturns prophecy by introducing Satan's kingdom. It is given to MEN to rule the earth and the four kingdoms are kingdom so men. The Ten Kings give "THEIR" authority to the Beast. It is NOT the "time of angles", BUT "THE TIME OF THE GENTILES". You have sucked things out of your thumb. No wonder you did not give scriptures for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The ten toes are the same as the ten horns on the dragon (Satan). These are ten kings aligned with the dragon they are part of his government. These ten kings represent falsely the 10 northern tribes of Israel (I understand you wont agree) the two other 2 tribes are on the second beast little horn ie lamb.
    The Dragon has ten horns in Revelation 12. The Beast has ten horns in Revelation 13. The Whore has ten horns in Revelation 17. But the ten horns are MEN - kings. Maybe if you gave scriptures we would be able to see where ten kings suddenly become 10 Tribes of Israel who are scattered throughout the world. And maybe you could give scriptures to show why this is the "time of the Gentiles" but you say it is the time of the House of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The symbolism of Iron is that this last kingdom is likened unto the KOG which was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron. The 10 kings represent this iron wherein they rule the nations. Israel was to be this iron.
    Scriptures?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    This is due to the fact Rome is not in the picture.
    But John pointedly says that the Beast was one of SEVEN kings of which the sixth was ruling (Rev.17:10-11). At that time ROME WAS RULING!

    So there we no believers in the entire 4 kingdoms? The kingdoms were destroyed does not mean ALL the people. The time when Christ destroys all these kingdoms the "potters" clay has been removed not by rapture but thru death by this fourth beast.
    The kingdom is made of iron and clay. You said the clay was the Christians. The kingdom is destroyed. where did you say that the clay survives? My Bibles says in Daniel 2:44-45;
    44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."


    That means your appreciation of Christ's coming is that He "CONSUMES" and "DESTROYS" the Christians. And you accuse me of "worldly understanding"??? C'mon bro!

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    On what basis? Nebuchadnezzar is the head. He was a MAN. His kingdom, Babylon, was of MEN. The last kingdom is made of KINGS. The "miry clay" is the "seed of MEN". It is you that overturns prophecy by introducing Satan's kingdom. It is given to MEN to rule the earth and the four kingdoms are kingdom so men. The Ten Kings give "THEIR" authority to the Beast. It is NOT the "time of angles", BUT "THE TIME OF THE GENTILES". You have sucked things out of your thumb. No wonder you did not give scriptures for it.
    Do you think not that the kingdom of hell can become a kingdom of men on earth?

    The Dragon has ten horns in Revelation 12. The Beast has ten horns in Revelation 13. The Whore has ten horns in Revelation 17. But the ten horns are MEN - kings. Maybe if you gave scriptures we would be able to see where ten kings suddenly become 10 Tribes of Israel who are scattered throughout the world. And maybe you could give scriptures to show why this is the "time of the Gentiles" but you say it is the time of the House of Israel.
    Satan is claiming to be God AND his kingdom. Can't claim such and not have one without the other. Look at each kingdom we see for 4 beasts, 7 heads/7angels, 10 horns/ten tribes. So this is the base for understanding.

    Satan's kingdom will come upon the earth all at once just like God's. You have been duped to believe these 7 heads and 10 kings are either some pasts kings or kingdoms and or something earthly. So not until the beast is upon the earth NIETHER will the 7 heads nor the 10 horns.

    Fourth Kingdom has not risen yet.

    Lion head 1
    Bear head 2
    Leopard heads 3,4,5,6
    Beast head 7 10 horns little horn head 8

    Concerning the 10 horns and the 2 within the little horn. This represents Israel under the beasts control. Maybe a counterfeit group claiming to be Jews but are not.

    The time of the gentiles coincides Israel. Like God, Satan will have control over both Israel and Gentile.

    But John pointedly says that the Beast was one of SEVEN kings of which the sixth was ruling (Rev.17:10-11). At that time ROME WAS RULING!
    There again is your problem. Rome. You need to get past this Rome thing or you will never see it. Rome has nothing to do with it.

    You are misinterpreting the timing of the passage. Rev 17 starts out in the future thus when John says "one is" it is a point in the future and not meaning current day Rome.


    That means your appreciation of Christ's coming is that He "CONSUMES" and "DESTROYS" the Christians. And you accuse me of "worldly understanding"??? C'mon bro!
    Potter's clay is not on the earth when Christ comes back. I had put out a thread that there are NO Christians on earth when Christ does come back and consumes. Are we not part of this statue, were not consumed...

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Do you think not that the kingdom of hell can become a kingdom of men on earth?



    Satan is claiming to be God AND his kingdom. Can't claim such and not have one without the other. Look at each kingdom we see for 4 beasts, 7 heads/7angels, 10 horns/ten tribes. So this is the base for understanding.

    Satan's kingdom will come upon the earth all at once just like God's. You have been duped to believe these 7 heads and 10 kings are either some pasts kings or kingdoms and or something earthly. So not until the beast is upon the earth NIETHER will the 7 heads nor the 10 horns.

    Fourth Kingdom has not risen yet.

    Lion head 1
    Bear head 2
    Leopard heads 3,4,5,6
    Beast head 7 10 horns little horn head 8

    Concerning the 10 horns and the 2 within the little horn. This represents Israel under the beasts control. Maybe a counterfeit group claiming to be Jews but are not.

    The time of the gentiles coincides Israel. Like God, Satan will have control over both Israel and Gentile.



    There again is your problem. Rome. You need to get past this Rome thing or you will never see it. Rome has nothing to do with it.

    You are misinterpreting the timing of the passage. Rev 17 starts out in the future thus when John says "one is" it is a point in the future and not meaning current day Rome.




    Potter's clay is not on the earth when Christ comes back. I had put out a thread that there are NO Christians on earth when Christ does come back and consumes. Are we not part of this statue, were not consumed...
    Thank you for your reply. I have read it and noted it. I do not have anything constructive to add so, if you'll allow, we can leave it at that.

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    Re: Fourth kingdom Dan 2 not Rome but from the pit of Hell - miry clary

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The grammar forbids this understanding. Here is Daniel 2:40-44:
    40 "And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."


    Verse 40 introduces "THE fourth kingdom". It's strength is iron. Verse 41 does not introduce a fifth kingdom. The grammar continues to decribe the kingdom of iron.
    Sorry, but FALSE claim about the grammar.
    It is CORRECT to note that a FIFTH kingdom is NOT specified as existing, but the grammar ACTUALLY shows that there IS a FIFTH kingdom.
    Anyone who pays attention to grammar will note this. Verse 41 states this when it says "the kingdom will be divided". Is that referring to the Legs? No, but to the Feet and Toes.
    Further more the DESCRIPTION associated with the Legs of Iron (the fourth kingdom) does NOT fit with that of the FIFTH.
    Additionally, we note that CONTEXTUALLY we have various collections of body parts.
    These are presented in connection with the material used for that part.
    So we have Head of Gold, but Arms AND Chest of Silver - so the first is a single part, but the other is two parts. The wee have Belly and Thighs of Bronze, which again is TWO parts, with one material - and just about everyone agrees this is Alexander as the Belly, and the Thighs of the Kingdom of the North and South (Seleucus and Ptolemy respectively). The Legs of Iron are then mentioned as ONE kingdom, though there are two legs. Finally we have Feet and Toes, which shows a connection between these two separate from the Legs.
    Dan 2:33* its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

    Anyone who claims ONLY four kingdoms is actually going against what is seen and described.

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