Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    In the Midwest.
    Posts
    6,044

    Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    I have recently ran across someone who argues that the correct translation of Galatians 2:16 is faith OF Jesus Christ (KJV) rather then faith IN Jesus Christ. (NLJV, NASB, NIV) Also in Galatians 2:20 he argues for faith OF the Son of God (KJV) rather than faith IN the Son of God. (NKJV, NASB, NIV) At first I though this was going to be a KJV only argument, but instead, he argued that there is a difference between, "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God.." and "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by faith IN the Son of God." When I asked him what the difference is and how does this effect doctrine, he simply quoted Romans 10:4-8 and bolded "..that is the word of faith which we preach. I still do not understand the point this person is trying to make. Has anyone else ever heard this argument before?
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    In the Midwest.
    Posts
    6,044

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    I just received a follow up argument below and discovered that the person who is making this argument above is a Seventh Day Adventist.

    The Life Death and Resurrection is the means to the Gospel not the Gospel. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? that is, to bring Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) down from above: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) again from the dead But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Book of the Law) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

    For Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) is in our mouths and in our hearts is the end of the written law for righteousness to everyone that believeth that it is in their hearts, minds, mouths and in their hands that they do it. That is the Faith to which we speak and that my friend is the GOSPEL. (Romans 1:5; 1:16-17 10:6-8,4 KJV)


    It sounds to me like this SDA is using this argument in a effort to sneak works into the back door of salvation through faith, namely, salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,509

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I just received a follow up argument below and discovered that the person who is making this argument above is a Seventh Day Adventist.

    The Life Death and Resurrection is the means to the Gospel not the Gospel. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? that is, to bring Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) down from above: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) again from the dead But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Book of the Law) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

    For Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) is in our mouths and in our hearts is the end of the written law for righteousness to everyone that believeth that it is in their hearts, minds, mouths and in their hands that they do it. That is the Faith to which we speak and that my friend is the GOSPEL. (Romans 1:5; 1:16-17 10:6-8,4 KJV)


    It sounds to me like this SDA is using this argument in a effort to sneak works into the back door of salvation through faith, namely, salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
    I've heard it before--it's been quite a while. I've heard it a number of times. I may have, at one time, thought it significant myself!

    So I have to analyze where I might've been coming from. I think for me, it was an effort to avoid my own lack of faith to adopt Christ's own faith.

    Now I think this is somewhat right and somewhat wrong. We do derive our righteousness and our gifts from Christ. But we also have to exercise our faith through the instrument of our own human processes, mind, will, and body.

    So we don't actually have the faith of Christ--we have our own faith, which is inspired from him. He supplies us with the word, and we choose to believe it, thereby participating in it. It's an interesting subject, in my view. But I think it best to translate it "faith in Christ," rather than, the "faith of Christ."

    At the core of it all is, I think, the word of God. Under the Law Israel was told that they were enabled to do good by the word of God from heaven, which drew near to them. This word is Christ, in our understanding today. He is the one who enables us to be saved through the word he sends us from heaven. We simply have to choose to exercise the faith.

    There may also be a danger of this kind of translation from "word of faith" people, who think that by confessing the purity of Christ's own faith they may be able to get the same results as Jesus did. Don't get me wrong. I do believe that by grace we can participate in Christ's righteousness and exercise spiritual gifts from him. But I don't believe we can act as though we are God's Son Jesus, demonstrate his deity, and do everything he could do as the Son of God. We are given only a "measure of faith."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    In the Midwest.
    Posts
    6,044

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Thank you for your response. Good insightful post!
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,955
    Blog Entries
    95

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have recently ran across someone who argues that the correct translation of Galatians 2:16 is faith OF Jesus Christ (KJV) rather then faith IN Jesus Christ. (NLJV, NASB, NIV) Also in Galatians 2:20 he argues for faith OF the Son of God (KJV) rather than faith IN the Son of God. (NKJV, NASB, NIV) At first I though this was going to be a KJV only argument, but instead, he argued that there is a difference between, "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God.." and "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by faith IN the Son of God." When I asked him what the difference is and how does this effect doctrine, he simply quoted Romans 10:4-8 and bolded "..that is the word of faith which we preach. I still do not understand the point this person is trying to make. Has anyone else ever heard this argument before?
    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I just received a follow up argument below and discovered that the person who is making this argument above is a Seventh Day Adventist.

    The Life Death and Resurrection is the means to the Gospel not the Gospel. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? that is, to bring Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) down from above: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) again from the dead But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Book of the Law) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

    For Christ (the Word; the Book of the Law) is in our mouths and in our hearts is the end of the written law for righteousness to everyone that believeth that it is in their hearts, minds, mouths and in their hands that they do it. That is the Faith to which we speak and that my friend is the GOSPEL. (Romans 1:5; 1:16-17 10:6-8,4 KJV)


    It sounds to me like this SDA is using this argument in a effort to sneak works into the back door of salvation through faith, namely, salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."
    The word utilized is "eis" and is translated to "in" when translated properly. Whenever I speak of belief and/or faith I always used the term "unto" but this caused more a misunderstanding so I've backed off utilizing that term as often as I once did. So while unto caused a misunderstanding, at least unto did not cause a fuss, as using "of vs in" does

    Anyway, here is the Greek and based on the meaning of the English terms of, "of or in," seems that believe OF does not mean a relationship IN Christ, only acknowledgement OF Christ. So any translation using "in" reflects the intent and teaching found in the verses in a much greater way.

    Strong's Concordance
    eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
    Original Word: εἰς
    Part of Speech: Preposition
    Transliteration: eis
    Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
    Definition: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)
    Usage: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.
    HELPS Word-studies

    1519 eis (a preposition) properly, into (unto) literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

    Copyright 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #6

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Here is a very short verse in the bible.

    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ


    Where is the word, "in," found ?

    Here is a very short verse in the bible.

    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ


    Where is the word, "in," found ?

  7. #7

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Here is a very short verse in the bible.

    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ


    Where is the word, "in," found ?

    Here is a very short verse in the bible.

    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

    καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ


    Where is the word, "in," found ?

    languages don't translate word for word. Especially ancient languages, but even say Spanish, it doesn't translate in the same order, or word for word. Each sentance , is translated by linguists, not word by word but they convey the same message from one language to another. Look into transliteration comparisons.

    as time goes on language evolves, words like " in" aren't in the older languages. It's the meaning of the sentences and even paragraphs that is translated into a different Lagrange.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,074

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have recently ran across someone who argues that the correct translation of Galatians 2:16 is faith OF Jesus Christ (KJV) rather then faith IN Jesus Christ. (NLJV, NASB, NIV) Also in Galatians 2:20 he argues for faith OF the Son of God (KJV) rather than faith IN the Son of God. (NKJV, NASB, NIV) At first I though this was going to be a KJV only argument, but instead, he argued that there is a difference between, "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God.." and "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by faith IN the Son of God." When I asked him what the difference is and how does this effect doctrine, he simply quoted Romans 10:4-8 and bolded "..that is the word of faith which we preach. I still do not understand the point this person is trying to make. Has anyone else ever heard this argument before?
    Our eminent King James translators all agreed on "the faith OF". It appears in numerous scriptures like Romans 3:3, 3:22, 4:12, 4:16, Galatians 2:16, 2:20, 3:22 and Ephesians 3:12. The question at hand then is, "does it lie within man to have faith?", or "is faith added to man who is destitute?". And I mean "faith in God", not "does he have faith that jumping off a building will get him killed?" We have three good indicators.

    1. The first is that Eve, before the fall, did not believe God.
    2. Secondly Hebrews 12:2 says; "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ... ." The word for "author" in the Greek does not help too much as it could mean we have faith but need someone to lead us in this faith. But the Greek for "finisher" is indicative that something is started and needs to be completed.
    3. Thirdly, the grammar of Ephesians 2:8 leaves no doubt. It is the "faith" that is the gift. It reads; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." The phrase "and that" describes "faith", not salvation, although I am the first to admit that salvation is a free gift as well.

    I propose that man, even before the fall, is empty in the matter of faith, and the faith we have that saves us and causes a pleasing walk to God must be given by God. Thus, "the faith OF Christ" is correct.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,451
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have recently ran across someone who argues that the correct translation of Galatians 2:16 is faith OF Jesus Christ (KJV) rather then faith IN Jesus Christ. (NLJV, NASB, NIV) Also in Galatians 2:20 he argues for faith OF the Son of God (KJV) rather than faith IN the Son of God. (NKJV, NASB, NIV) At first I though this was going to be a KJV only argument, but instead, he argued that there is a difference between, "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God.." and "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by faith IN the Son of God." When I asked him what the difference is and how does this effect doctrine, he simply quoted Romans 10:4-8 and bolded "..that is the word of faith which we preach. I still do not understand the point this person is trying to make. Has anyone else ever heard this argument before?
    There is a road of faith that starts with believing that God is and ends with the faith of Christ. The Greek language displays the different faiths with its different prepositions:

    1. Faith in connection with God.
    __a. Faith to God. 1 Thes. 1:8. The use of pros indicates that it is directed toward God, the purpose is not yet properly distinguished.
    __b. Faith on God. Heb. 6:1. Here epi is used with the accusative. There is a working to reach God. The goal must therefore already be better distinguished.
    __c. Faith into God. John 12:44; 14:1; 1 Petr. 1:21. Faith has now reached God and wants to rest in Him.
    __d. Furthermore, one has the believing God (without preposition). Acts 27:25; Rom. 4:3 Gal. 3:6; Jas. 2:23; Tit. 3:8.

    2. Faith in connection with Christ.
    __a. Faith on the Lord. The preposition epi has been used. Sometimes with the accusative, such as in Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19. It expresses an operation to the reaching of Christ. Sometimes with the dative, as in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Petr. 2:6; 1 Tim. 1:16. One can then translate epi by in response to or in connection with . It is a general expression that does not specify faith.
    __b. Faith into the Lord. Eis expresses that one has come to Him. In most cases, this expression is used. As an example we give: John 3:16. One can distinguish from this: believe into Christ Jesus. Gal. 2:16.
    __c. Faith in Christ. The preposition en expresses a resting-in. The end goal has been reached. Here they have sonship. Gal. 3:26; Eph. 1:15; Col. 1:4.
    __d. Then one has the Christ believing without preposition. One can distinguish between those who know Him in His humiliation (e.g., John 8:31, read for believed on Him, had believed Him.) and those who believe Him in His glorification. 2 Tim. 1:12.

    Christ had faith as well, being in the flesh He laid down all his Divine properties voluntarily and relied just as much on faith (That's why He had holy spirit without measure, John 3:34). The Father promised Christ a lot, He knew this from Scripture and believed all of it. Therefore the faith of Christ reaches far deeper then any of the other faiths . Many believe they will be resurrected at the last day of this aion, Christ believed death could not hold him and would be resurrected separately (on the third day, Mat. 16:22), He believed He would be in the right Hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20) and there is more to be found in Scripture.

    Aristarkos

  10. #10

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    There is a road of faith that starts with believing that God is and ends with the faith of Christ. The Greek language displays the different faiths with its different prepositions:

    1. Faith in connection with God.
    __a. Faith to God. 1 Thes. 1:8. The use of pros indicates that it is directed toward God, the purpose is not yet properly distinguished.
    __b. Faith on God. Heb. 6:1. Here epi is used with the accusative. There is a working to reach God. The goal must therefore already be better distinguished.
    __c. Faith into God. John 12:44; 14:1; 1 Petr. 1:21. Faith has now reached God and wants to rest in Him.
    __d. Furthermore, one has the believing God (without preposition). Acts 27:25; Rom. 4:3 Gal. 3:6; Jas. 2:23; Tit. 3:8.

    2. Faith in connection with Christ.
    __a. Faith on the Lord. The preposition epi has been used. Sometimes with the accusative, such as in Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19. It expresses an operation to the reaching of Christ. Sometimes with the dative, as in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Petr. 2:6; 1 Tim. 1:16. One can then translate epi by in response to or in connection with . It is a general expression that does not specify faith.
    __b. Faith into the Lord. Eis expresses that one has come to Him. In most cases, this expression is used. As an example we give: John 3:16. One can distinguish from this: believe into Christ Jesus. Gal. 2:16.
    __c. Faith in Christ. The preposition en expresses a resting-in. The end goal has been reached. Here they have sonship. Gal. 3:26; Eph. 1:15; Col. 1:4.
    __d. Then one has the Christ believing without preposition. One can distinguish between those who know Him in His humiliation (e.g., John 8:31, read for believed on Him, had believed Him.) and those who believe Him in His glorification. 2 Tim. 1:12.

    Christ had faith as well, being in the flesh He laid down all his Divine properties voluntarily and relied just as much on faith (That's why He had holy spirit without measure, John 3:34). The Father promised Christ a lot, He knew this from Scripture and believed all of it. Therefore the faith of Christ reaches far deeper then any of the other faiths . Many believe they will be resurrected at the last day of this aion, Christ believed death could not hold him and would be resurrected separately (on the third day, Mat. 16:22), He believed He would be in the right Hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20) and there is more to be found in Scripture.

    Aristarkos
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Son of the Living God.

    That being established above Jesus, Son, even with the Holy Spirit without measure, being in the flesh, was he inherently obediently or did he have to learn, the obedience? Obedience of what?

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8

    Did Christ, in the flesh, become, Obedience of Faith. Obedience (Accusative) Faith (Genitive)?

    Walls

    Does this not explain Heb 12:2 Looking off into the, of the faith, Author ( to first led ) and finisher, Jesus

    Obedience of Faith? Whose obedience what faith?

    for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    There is a road of faith that starts with believing that God is and ends with the faith of Christ. The Greek language displays the different faiths with its different prepositions:

    1. Faith in connection with God.
    __a. Faith to God. 1 Thes. 1:8. The use of pros indicates that it is directed toward God, the purpose is not yet properly distinguished.
    __b. Faith on God. Heb. 6:1. Here epi is used with the accusative. There is a working to reach God. The goal must therefore already be better distinguished.
    __c. Faith into God. John 12:44; 14:1; 1 Petr. 1:21. Faith has now reached God and wants to rest in Him.
    __d. Furthermore, one has the believing God (without preposition). Acts 27:25; Rom. 4:3 Gal. 3:6; Jas. 2:23; Tit. 3:8.

    2. Faith in connection with Christ.
    __a. Faith on the Lord. The preposition epi has been used. Sometimes with the accusative, such as in Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19. It expresses an operation to the reaching of Christ. Sometimes with the dative, as in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Petr. 2:6; 1 Tim. 1:16. One can then translate epi by in response to or in connection with . It is a general expression that does not specify faith.
    __b. Faith into the Lord. Eis expresses that one has come to Him. In most cases, this expression is used. As an example we give: John 3:16. One can distinguish from this: believe into Christ Jesus. Gal. 2:16.
    __c. Faith in Christ. The preposition en expresses a resting-in. The end goal has been reached. Here they have sonship. Gal. 3:26; Eph. 1:15; Col. 1:4.
    __d. Then one has the Christ believing without preposition. One can distinguish between those who know Him in His humiliation (e.g., John 8:31, read for believed on Him, had believed Him.) and those who believe Him in His glorification. 2 Tim. 1:12.

    Christ had faith as well, being in the flesh He laid down all his Divine properties voluntarily and relied just as much on faith (That's why He had holy spirit without measure, John 3:34). The Father promised Christ a lot, He knew this from Scripture and believed all of it. Therefore the faith of Christ reaches far deeper then any of the other faiths . Many believe they will be resurrected at the last day of this aion, Christ believed death could not hold him and would be resurrected separately (on the third day, Mat. 16:22), He believed He would be in the right Hand of the Father (Eph. 1:20) and there is more to be found in Scripture.

    Aristarkos
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Son of the Living God.

    That being established above Jesus, Son, even with the Holy Spirit without measure, being in the flesh, was he inherently obediently or did he have to learn, the obedience? Obedience of what?

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8

    Did Christ, in the flesh, become, Obedience of Faith. Obedience (Accusative) Faith (Genitive)?

    Walls

    Does this not explain Heb 12:2 Looking off into the, of the faith, Author ( to first led ) and finisher, Jesus

    Obedience of Faith? Whose obedience what faith?

    for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    12,022

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I have recently ran across someone who argues that the correct translation of Galatians 2:16 is faith OF Jesus Christ (KJV) rather then faith IN Jesus Christ. (NLJV, NASB, NIV) Also in Galatians 2:20 he argues for faith OF the Son of God (KJV) rather than faith IN the Son of God. (NKJV, NASB, NIV) At first I though this was going to be a KJV only argument, but instead, he argued that there is a difference between, "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God.." and "the life which we now live in the flesh we live by faith IN the Son of God." When I asked him what the difference is and how does this effect doctrine, he simply quoted Romans 10:4-8 and bolded "..that is the word of faith which we preach. I still do not understand the point this person is trying to make. Has anyone else ever heard this argument before?
    Well, the faith of the Son of God doesn't mean Jesus' faith so....? Is there any difference in faith in Jesus and Christianity? Nope. Did Paul say the life he lived was by Jesus' faith or did he say the life he lived was by the gospel? By the gospel/Christianity/the faith.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    In the Midwest.
    Posts
    6,044

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The word utilized is "eis" and is translated to "in" when translated properly. Whenever I speak of belief and/or faith I always used the term "unto" but this caused more a misunderstanding so I've backed off utilizing that term as often as I once did. So while unto caused a misunderstanding, at least unto did not cause a fuss, as using "of vs in" does

    Anyway, here is the Greek and based on the meaning of the English terms of, "of or in," seems that believe OF does not mean a relationship IN Christ, only acknowledgement OF Christ. So any translation using "in" reflects the intent and teaching found in the verses in a much greater way.
    Strong's Concordance
    eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
    Original Word: εἰς
    Part of Speech: Preposition
    Transliteration: eis
    Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
    Definition: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)
    Usage: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.
    HELPS Word-studies

    1519 eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

    Copyright 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
    Thank you. I also believe that any translation using "in" reflects the intent and teaching found in the verses in a much greater way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The word utilized is "eis" and is translated to "in" when translated properly. Whenever I speak of belief and/or faith I always used the term "unto" but this caused more a misunderstanding so I've backed off utilizing that term as often as I once did. So while unto caused a misunderstanding, at least unto did not cause a fuss, as using "of vs in" does

    Anyway, here is the Greek and based on the meaning of the English terms of, "of or in," seems that believe OF does not mean a relationship IN Christ, only acknowledgement OF Christ. So any translation using "in" reflects the intent and teaching found in the verses in a much greater way.
    Strong's Concordance
    eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
    Original Word: εἰς
    Part of Speech: Preposition
    Transliteration: eis
    Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
    Definition: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)
    Usage: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.
    HELPS Word-studies

    1519 eis (a preposition) properly, into (unto) literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

    Copyright 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
    Thank you. I also believe that any translation using "in" reflects the intent and teaching found in the verses in a much greater way.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  13. #13

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Brother Dan,
    Gal.2:16 says,

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law

    Paul is not including Jesus in this statement, because Jesus was justified by the works of the law.
    He's the only man who ever was because,

    whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Jas2:10

    And sin causes death so,

    it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Act.2:24

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    6,074

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    ...
    Walls

    Does this not explain Heb 12:2 Looking off into the, of the faith, Author ( to first led ) and finisher, Jesus

    Obedience of Faith? Whose obedience what faith?

    for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --
    I am not sure what your point is. Although the term "obedience of, or to, the faith" appears twice, I do not think that this is the question posed in the OP. The question posed in the OP is, which is true?
    1. We have faith IN something. This implies that we own faith as an intrinsic attribute and may use it, or not use it, according to our will
    2. We exercise the faith OF somebody. This implies that we are destitute of faith and that Somebody else's faith is given to us to exercise.

    My proofs showed that point #2 is true. Man does not possess intrinsic faith in God. It has to be GIVEN. It is the "faith OF (belonging to) Christ". Once we have been given faith by the "author and finisher" of our faith, we can then decide to exercise it to (i) effect salvation, and (ii) please God. My example was that though Eve was still perfect and complete, without the effects of the fall, she did not believe what God said to her.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    In the Midwest.
    Posts
    6,044

    Re: Faith OF Jesus Christ vs. faith IN Jesus Christ

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Brother Dan,
    Gal.2:16 says,

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law

    Paul is not including Jesus in this statement, because Jesus was justified by the works of the law.
    He's the only man who ever was because,

    whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Jas2:10

    And sin causes death so,

    it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Act.2:24
    Amen! Galatians 2:20 - I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Brother Dan,
    Gal.2:16 says,

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law

    Paul is not including Jesus in this statement, because Jesus was justified by the works of the law.
    He's the only man who ever was because,

    whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Jas2:10

    And sin causes death so,

    it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Act.2:24
    Amen! Galatians 2:20 - I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 70
    Last Post: Jan 12th 2016, 10:11 PM
  2. The faith OF Jesus Christ
    By episkopos in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Jun 15th 2014, 07:18 PM
  3. Replies: 756
    Last Post: Nov 12th 2013, 12:58 PM
  4. Jesus Christ whom I put my faith in !!!
    By Dayone in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Dec 23rd 2011, 11:34 PM
  5. by the faith of Jesus Christ Part 1
    By Partaker of Christ in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Dec 4th 2008, 04:05 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •