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Thread: Was the Law inept?

  1. #46
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The blood of Jesus had not been shed yet in the OT. God set up animal sacrifices to forgive sins, just as the scriptures say. Are you seriously disagreeing with OT scripture that sins were forgicen after animal sacrifices?



    And shedding animal blood. That's the main part that God required. No sins were forgiven unless that took place.








    No, it's you that doesn't understand either Paul nor the OT scriptures.




    It was replaced. The scriptures are clear on that.



    That is not scriptural. Christ shed his blood on the cross, not anywhere in the OT.
    David said it rightly concerning the sin offerings. Notice that David was forgiven without any sin offering.

    Ps 51:16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
    You are not pleased with burnt offering.
    17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
    A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

    In Lev 4, we learn that bulls were offered as a sin offering.

    Lev. 4:2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer to the Lord a bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed.

    In verse 28, we learn that goats were also offered as a sin offering.

    But in Hebrews, Jesus explains through the writer, that bulls and goats were not able to blot out sin.

    Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    and verse 11

    Heb 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins

    The only sacrifice that ever has or ever will be able to deal with sin is Jesus. Though God reserves the right to just forgive as He did David in Psalms 51. Because a broken and contrite heart, the Lord will not despise.

    Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Finally, David and Abraham, and the OT writers saw that Jesus was coming. Abraham prophesied that God would provide Himself a Lamb. And He did. The Lamb's name was Jesus.

  2. #47
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Jesus said keeping the commandments was how (at the time) one could receive eternal life. That changed after the cross.
    Jesus also said it was impossible with man to keep the law a few verses later. Salvation has always been on the basis of faith. From the beginning to the end. Paul stated the if righteousness could come by the law, then there was no need for Jesus to die. This was explained more fully in the post you quoted but unfortunately, you left out all the other verses.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #48
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There is no if, Christ said it was true. We don't know if anyone got eternal life that way but it wasn't impossible especially with sin atonement part of the covenant.
    I can't agree with that. The Law had always promised "life" to those who obeyed the Law. But this never meant that the Law provided an eternal atonement for sin. It only provided a pathway towards that goal.

    Obeying the Law enabled Israel to avoid the punishments of death, and to avoid judgments in this life. Beyond this it also put Israel on a pathway that led to Christ's eternal atonement.

    Living by the Law was a form of living by faith under that particular covenant and at that particular time. And it was that kind of faith that qualified them for Christ's atonement, after when covenant had come into being.

    Men under the Law still had to suffer death. That also is what Scripture says. The Law could *not* remove the sentence of death upon Mankind. It required Christ's atonement *after the Law* that freed Man from the curse of sin, which was death.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    People can say whatever they want but nothing can overturn what Jesus said.
    You have to interpret what Jesus said in context. Nobody will deny Jesus said what he said.

  4. #49
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    It would be nice if I could get the "edit" function back in this forum! What I meant to say was:
    I can't agree with that. The Law had always promised "life" to those who obeyed the Law. But this never meant that the Law provided an eternal atonement for sin. It only provided a pathway towards that goal.

    Obeying the Law enabled Israel to avoid the punishments of death, and to avoid judgments in this life. Beyond this it also put Israel on a pathway that led to Christ's eternal atonement.

    Living by the Law was a form of living by faith under that particular covenant and at that particular time. And it was that kind of faith that qualified them for Christ's atonement, after that covenant had come into being.

    Men under the Law still had to suffer death. That also is what Scripture says. The Law could *not* remove the sentence of death upon Mankind. It required Christ's atonement *after the Law* to free Man from the curse of sin, which was death.

  5. #50
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would be nice if I could get the "edit" function back in this forum!.
    You can edit in "mobile" mode. Slug figured that out for us. There's a thread somewhere named "Edit". To edit, just go to the bottom left hand side of this page where it says "B4 Default Style" and change it to "Default Mobile Style". Then you can edit your post. It won't work with Chrome but it does with edge, explorer, firefox, etc.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  6. #51
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The blood of Jesus had not been shed yet in the OT. God set up animal sacrifices to forgive sins, just as the scriptures say. Are you seriously disagreeing with OT scripture that sins were forgicen after animal sacrifices?

    And shedding animal blood. That's the main part that God required. No sins were forgiven unless that took place.

    No, it's you that doesn't understand either Paul nor the OT scriptures.

    It was replaced. The scriptures are clear on that.

    That is not scriptural. Christ shed his blood on the cross, not anywhere in the OT.
    The work of the offering of the sacrifices is what wrought forgiveness of their sins. The animal sacrifice itself never provided forgiveness for sins, nor did ever the blood of the animals. It was the "work" that they did to offer the sacrifice that wrought forgiveness, being justified by the works of the law. And indeed, their sins were forgiven according to the reference you gave in Lev. But not until the instance Jesus died on the cross. Each year they made those sacrifices, their sins were staved off until the following year. Having a continual remembrance each year of their sins.

    Only Jesus has the power by the grace of God to forgive sins. The blood of Jesus cleansed the sins of those who lived under the law and under grace.

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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    The only sacrifice that ever has or ever will be able to deal with sin is Jesus.

    No, God is clear that there was a time when sacrifices did result in forgiveness of sin.

    Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

    Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Not only are these verses correct, they also do not contradict anything Paul said. Only over time did the sacrifices and offerings not please God. His people strayed too far from Him and thus the covenant ended and there was a divorce etc. Christ's sacrifices have replaced the former things.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #53
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No, God is clear that there was a time when sacrifices did result in forgiveness of sin.

    Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

    Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Not only are these verses correct, they also do not contradict anything Paul said. Only over time did the sacrifices and offerings not please God. His people strayed too far from Him and thus the covenant ended and there was a divorce etc. Christ's sacrifices have replaced the former things.
    Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    and

    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

  9. #54
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    That doesn't make the verses posted incorrect. Forgiven sins are sins taken away so you have a problem claiming sins were not ever taken away since God says they were in the OT scriptures.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #55
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That doesn't make the verses posted incorrect. Forgiven sins are sins taken away so you have a problem claiming sins were not ever taken away since God says they were in the OT scriptures.
    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #56
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
    Why not address what God says in the OT?

    Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
    Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
    Lev_19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
    Num_15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
    Psa_32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    Psa_85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #57
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why not address what God says in the OT?

    Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
    Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
    Lev_5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
    Lev_19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
    Num_15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
    Psa_32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    Psa_85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.
    Hebrews explained it. The OT law offerings never are what made it possible for forgiveness. That's why they had to do it ever year. Jesus however, made it possible for "ALL TIME". ALL TIME is past, present and future.

    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

    The NT makes it clear that the OT sacrifices could NEVER take away sin. They didn't. However, God forgave because His Son was crucified before the foundations of the earth. Salvation and forgiveness have always, always, always been on the basis of what Christ has done.

    So we can believe that Christ says in the NT, which is the full revelation, or we can go back to the partial revelation which is the OT. The partial cast a shadow which isn't clear. But when He who cast the shadow appears, then we see in a more complete way.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Hebrews explained it.
    I think you are misunderstanding Hebrews. God is perfectly clear that sin was forgiven in the OT. What is also clear is that something changed where it no longer was accepted by God and sin was no longer being forgiven. I think that would be after the divorcing of God's people and the breaking of the covenant. So, the OT verses are correct and Hebrews is correct.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #59
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding Hebrews. God is perfectly clear that sin was forgiven in the OT. What is also clear is that something changed where it no longer was accepted by God and sin was no longer being forgiven. I think that would be after the divorcing of God's people and the breaking of the covenant. So, the OT verses are correct and Hebrews is correct.
    Hebrews said "Never can" but with Jesus "for all time".

    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

    The shadow was always just that. For instance, Peter stated "by His stripes you are healed". The tense is exactly the same as the OT Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53 also stated that "He was pierced through for OUR iniquities". That's present tense for OT folks too. It also says "He bore the sins of many"... That's not "will bear the sins of many" but past tense "bore".

    Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
    He was crushed for our iniquities;
    The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
    And by His scourging we are healed.

    Isaiah 53:12b Because He poured out Himself to death,
    And was numbered with the transgressors;
    Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
    And interceded for the transgressors.

    They were forgiven in the OT the same way we are forgiven in the NT. The OT sacrifices forshadowed Christ, but were unable to accomplish what Christ accomplished. They were far inferior. Because they could not do away with sin, they had to make the same offerings year after year after year. They covered sin but God forgave it based on what His Son did and would do.

    Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;

    The Hebrew writer explains that the priests had to ofer time after time the same sacrifices because they could not take away sins. But Jesus was far superior!

    Hebrews 11:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

    Jesus only had to make one offering for ALL TIME. That's ALL TIME. Not "present and future time" but all time forever, past, present and future.

    Also, we see in Psalm 51 that David understood this, at least partially.

    Ps 51:16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
    You are not pleased with burnt offering.
    17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
    A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

    David knew that sacrifices would not be the answer. They only forshadowed the answer. David told God that if sacrifices were what He wanted, he would offer them to the Lord. But God required repentance from David and Jesus' blood.

  15. #60
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    Re: Was the Law inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    David knew that sacrifices would not be the answer.
    No longer the answer...it used to be though. There was a time God was pleased by the sacrifices and sin was forgiven. It's recorded in the OT but so is the falling away of the people from God and David was aware of this.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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