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Thread: the word from heaven

  1. #1
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    the word from heaven

    Rom 10.5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    This passage always bothered me--I didn't fully understand it. I now think I do--I think it means that we don't have to go down into the depths to find God's word, and we don't have to fly high up into the sky to find God's word. It is near to us, enabling us to obey God.

    I think we need God's spiritual aid to do good. I think we have been given a natural ability, in creation, to do good. But we also have a sin nature, polluting our good works to some extent.

    When we rebel against God's word, we push it away, and lose our ability to do good. But when we choose to embrace God's word in a covenant, we not only receive enablement to do good, but we also receive God's forgiveness.

    In the NT era this word of God that helps us is the word of Christ, whose divine power enables us to do good in his name. And in embracing his word in a covenant we also benefit from his atoning work, which has granted us a final pardon.

    I hope this is a good interpretation?

  2. #2

    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Rom 10.5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    This passage always bothered me--I didn't fully understand it. I now think I do--I think it means that we don't have to go down into the depths to find God's word, and we don't have to fly high up into the sky to find God's word. It is near to us, enabling us to obey God.

    I think we need God's spiritual aid to do good. I think we have been given a natural ability, in creation, to do good. But we also have a sin nature, polluting our good works to some extent.

    When we rebel against God's word, we push it away, and lose our ability to do good. But when we choose to embrace God's word in a covenant, we not only receive enablement to do good, but we also receive God's forgiveness.

    In the NT era this word of God that helps us is the word of Christ, whose divine power enables us to do good in his name. And in embracing his word in a covenant we also benefit from his atoning work, which has granted us a final pardon.

    I hope this is a good interpretation?
    Great interpretation bro, great post God bless you in the things of the Lord Jesus Christ and may he continually speak his word of life over you and those around you

  3. #3
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    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Rom 10.5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    This passage always bothered me--I didn't fully understand it. I now think I do--I think it means that we don't have to go down into the depths to find God's word, and we don't have to fly high up into the sky to find God's word. It is near to us, enabling us to obey God.

    I think we need God's spiritual aid to do good. I think we have been given a natural ability, in creation, to do good. But we also have a sin nature, polluting our good works to some extent.

    When we rebel against God's word, we push it away, and lose our ability to do good. But when we choose to embrace God's word in a covenant, we not only receive enablement to do good, but we also receive God's forgiveness.

    In the NT era this word of God that helps us is the word of Christ, whose divine power enables us to do good in his name. And in embracing his word in a covenant we also benefit from his atoning work, which has granted us a final pardon.

    I hope this is a good interpretation?
    The context of the said scripture is Israel. And the operative verse is Romans 10:5, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." The issue is, will Israel obtain LIFE by keeping the Law. The meaning of the second part of this verse is not a daily life of obedience. It means that if a man keeps the Law he will EXPERIENCE a kind of EXISTENCE. This is confirmed in both Romans 7:10, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death", and Galatians 3:21, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law."

    When God made man he gave man human vitality, or life. Because of this life, a man could enjoy human life. While both a man and a dog enjoy their food, the man can enjoy a much wider spectrum of LIFE. The man can enjoy a joke or the opera, while a dog's life does not equip him for this. So also the divine LIFE. It is one thing to have divine life, but this divine LIFE enables a type of LIVING. This is what is meant by the verses above. God makes man perfect in his manhood. If God did not require higher things, man could have continued in "Eden" (meaning "pleasure") indefinitely and in satisfaction. He would have had human life and LIVED like a human. But God made man a special "Vessel" - a "vessel" to take in and harbor God Himself. So God puts man in front of the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten of that Tree, he would have RECEIVED the divine LIFE intrinsically, AND his resultant behavior and enjoyment would have been on the divine level. He would have HAD a LIFE and this intrinsic LIFE would have produced a LIVING.

    Roman's Chapter 10 points to this. The Law, IF KEPT, promised LIFE and a resultant LIVING. But faith in Christ also produces this LIFE and this LIVING. In the end, your LIFE and your resultant LIVING is based on RIGHTEOUSNESS before God. Shall this required righteousness come from the LAW, or shall it come some other way? The answer is given. Israel had the Law for 1,500 years and were UNABLE to attain to the required righteousness. Instead of the Law giving LIFE, it demanded DEATH because by breaking it, God Who is righteous, must administer retribution. But there was One Man Who dis keep the Law - Jesus Christ. And this Jesus, if He can be captured, could be our righteousness before God. If God is ready to impute righteousness to those who attach themselves to Jesus, shall we not try to grab this Jesus? Our Lord Jesus lived on earth but was murdered, so shall we descent to Paradise in Hades and bring Him to us? Or shall we somehow ascend to heaven where He now sits at the right hand of His Father? If we can just capture this Jesus!

    But NO! This is not the principle of the Tree of Life. The principle of the Tree of Life is not to capture the Tree. The principle that this Tree will provide something that will GO INTO THE CHOSEN VESSEL and do its work. Israel has the Law OUTWARDLY written on tables of stone. Will this be effective? NO! It is utterly proven, over 1,500 years, that this will not be effective. OK. Then shall we not grab that which God has declared righteous - Jesus? NO! This will also not help because He will remain OUTSIDE of men. What shall we then do???

    The answer is, "TAKE GOD'S WAY!" - TAKE IT IN WITH THE MOUTH!!! The Greek for "spirit" is "pneuma". It is the same word as "AIR". So on resurrection night, Jesus BREATHED the Holy Spirit, with the established righteousness of Christ, INTO the disciples (Jn.20:22). This procedure is still valid. The way to get LIFE is BY THE MOUTH. And this LIFE will then, when given free rein, produce a LIVING. But now the question arises - "Jesus the Man was an Israelite. He is Messiah and King of ISRAEL. He came to the "lost sheep of Israel. Is not then this "processed Christ" ONLY FOR ISRAEL?" NO! Things have changed. The physical Christ is Israel's, but the "Processed Christ" as the Spirit IS FOR AL MEN! The GAINING of Christ, this gaining of His imputed righteousness, and this gaining of His intrinsic LIFE which will elevate us to the enjoyment of the divine LIVING, IS TO BE HAD EQUALLY FOR JEW AND GENTILE. HE IS FREE FOR ANY MAN. God does not give advantage to the Israelite in this matter. Some theologians call our Lord Jesus, "the PNEUMATIC Christ". He has gone through a whole process and is now available in all His Person, Attributes, Achievements and Position as the Holy PNEUMA to be taken in by the mouth.

    • The Law, grand as it is, is not able to impart Christ as LIFE
    • To gain Christ is not by His physical presence as He still remains OUTSIDE a man
    • To gain Christ is by THE MOUTH - by BREATH - by the "pneuma". CONFESSING HIM is a matter of BREATH

    This is my understanding of the said scriptures.

  4. #4
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    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Great interpretation bro, great post God bless you in the things of the Lord Jesus Christ and may he continually speak his word of life over you and those around you
    Thanks for the encouragement! Sometimes it is very much needed...

  5. #5
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    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The context of the said scripture is Israel. And the operative verse is Romans 10:5, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." The issue is, will Israel obtain LIFE by keeping the Law. The meaning of the second part of this verse is not a daily life of obedience. It means that if a man keeps the Law he will EXPERIENCE a kind of EXISTENCE. This is confirmed in both Romans 7:10, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death", and Galatians 3:21, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law."
    I do think the Law brought life, but only temporarily. I believe Paul was speaking of the fact the Law could not bring *eternal life.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    When God made man he gave man human vitality, or life. Because of this life, a man could enjoy human life. While both a man and a dog enjoy their food, the man can enjoy a much wider spectrum of LIFE. The man can enjoy a joke or the opera, while a dog's life does not equip him for this. So also the divine LIFE. It is one thing to have divine life, but this divine LIFE enables a type of LIVING. This is what is meant by the verses above. God makes man perfect in his manhood. If God did not require higher things, man could have continued in "Eden" (meaning "pleasure") indefinitely and in satisfaction. He would have had human life and LIVED like a human. But God made man a special "Vessel" - a "vessel" to take in and harbor God Himself. So God puts man in front of the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten of that Tree, he would have RECEIVED the divine LIFE intrinsically, AND his resultant behavior and enjoyment would have been on the divine level. He would have HAD a LIFE and this intrinsic LIFE would have produced a LIVING.
    I think there's a lot of truth in that. It may be significant that life is portrayed by a tree, which is a growing, living thing. Man was designed to grow up and spiritually mature. Unfortunately, Man did not attain that initially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Roman's Chapter 10 points to this. The Law, IF KEPT, promised LIFE and a resultant LIVING. But faith in Christ also produces this LIFE and this LIVING. In the end, your LIFE and your resultant LIVING is based on RIGHTEOUSNESS before God. Shall this required righteousness come from the LAW, or shall it come some other way? The answer is given. Israel had the Law for 1,500 years and were UNABLE to attain to the required righteousness. Instead of the Law giving LIFE, it demanded DEATH because by breaking it, God Who is righteous, must administer retribution. But there was One Man Who dis keep the Law - Jesus Christ. And this Jesus, if He can be captured, could be our righteousness before God. If God is ready to impute righteousness to those who attach themselves to Jesus, shall we not try to grab this Jesus? Our Lord Jesus lived on earth but was murdered, so shall we descent to Paradise in Hades and bring Him to us? Or shall we somehow ascend to heaven where He now sits at the right hand of His Father? If we can just capture this Jesus!
    Well yes, Jesus became the tree of life--our source of eternal life, and seemed to become unattainable after the Fall. During the term of the Law of Moses, the stain of sin remained upon Israel even as they lived in righteousness under terms of that covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    But NO! This is not the principle of the Tree of Life. The principle of the Tree of Life is not to capture the Tree. The principle that this Tree will provide something that will GO INTO THE CHOSEN VESSEL and do its work. Israel has the Law OUTWARDLY written on tables of stone. Will this be effective? NO! It is utterly proven, over 1,500 years, that this will not be effective. OK. Then shall we not grab that which God has declared righteous - Jesus? NO! This will also not help because He will remain OUTSIDE of men. What shall we then do???
    I would suggest here that the word of God was as attainable under the Law of Moses as it is under the Covenant of Christ. Both covenants harbor the word of God, which is the basis of our righteousness. It is "near" to us because Israel could do it, and we can do it. Israel could be sustained, as a nation, under the Law, by obedience and by temporary atonement. And we can be sustained by the word of Christ by our faith and by our obedience. The word is near us "so that we can do it." It just was not fully "attainable" as a lasting possession until Christ came and atoned for our sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The answer is, "TAKE GOD'S WAY!" - TAKE IT IN WITH THE MOUTH!!! The Greek for "spirit" is "pneuma". It is the same word as "AIR". So on resurrection night, Jesus BREATHED the Holy Spirit, with the established righteousness of Christ, INTO the disciples (Jn.20:22). This procedure is still valid. The way to get LIFE is BY THE MOUTH. And this LIFE will then, when given free rein, produce a LIVING. But now the question arises - "Jesus the Man was an Israelite. He is Messiah and King of ISRAEL. He came to the "lost sheep of Israel. Is not then this "processed Christ" ONLY FOR ISRAEL?" NO! Things have changed. The physical Christ is Israel's, but the "Processed Christ" as the Spirit IS FOR AL MEN! The GAINING of Christ, this gaining of His imputed righteousness, and this gaining of His intrinsic LIFE which will elevate us to the enjoyment of the divine LIVING, IS TO BE HAD EQUALLY FOR JEW AND GENTILE. HE IS FREE FOR ANY MAN. God does not give advantage to the Israelite in this matter. Some theologians call our Lord Jesus, "the PNEUMATIC Christ". He has gone through a whole process and is now available in all His Person, Attributes, Achievements and Position as the Holy PNEUMA to be taken in by the mouth.

    • The Law, grand as it is, is not able to impart Christ as LIFE
    • To gain Christ is not by His physical presence as He still remains OUTSIDE a man
    • To gain Christ is by THE MOUTH - by BREATH - by the "pneuma". CONFESSING HIM is a matter of BREATH

    This is my understanding of the said scriptures.
    I do agree that under the Law of Moses God used *physical elements* to reach out to Israel, the physical temple, animal sacrifices, and Jesus himself. But I also think these were always meant to be received *spiritually,* because God's word *is* spiritual. So whether OT or NT God's purpose has always been to bring about a spiritual change in us through His word.

    The only difference, in my view, is that under the New Covenant, final atonement has been made, and the door has now been opened not just to Israel but to all nations to receive this atonement. We now have a system of righteousness that works, as always, by the word of God. But it also has final atonement, no longer requiring physical elements to symbolize the need for this atonement.

  6. #6

    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Rom 10.5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    This passage always bothered me--I didn't fully understand it. I now think I do--I think it means that we don't have to go down into the depths to find God's word, and we don't have to fly high up into the sky to find God's word. It is near to us, enabling us to obey God.

    I think we need God's spiritual aid to do good. I think we have been given a natural ability, in creation, to do good. But we also have a sin nature, polluting our good works to some extent.

    When we rebel against God's word, we push it away, and lose our ability to do good. But when we choose to embrace God's word in a covenant, we not only receive enablement to do good, but we also receive God's forgiveness.

    In the NT era this word of God that helps us is the word of Christ, whose divine power enables us to do good in his name. And in embracing his word in a covenant we also benefit from his atoning work, which has granted us a final pardon.

    I hope this is a good interpretation?
    Romans 10: 5-9 compares life by righteousness that comes from the Mosaic law to life by righteousness that comes from the faith of Jesus Christ.

    1. Righteousness from the Mosaic law gives hope but questions who will work to bring about the hope. It questions because the Mosaic law does not give Jesus the Lord who brings about and is the substance of hope.
    2. Righteousness from the faith of Jesus Christ gives both the author of hope and finisher who brings about the hope. The word of faith (Jesus the Lord in our mouths) authors the substance of faith while the finisher (Jesus the Lord in our hearts) brings about the evidence of faith.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  7. #7
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    Re: the word from heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Romans 10: 5-9 compares life by righteousness that comes from the Mosaic law to life by righteousness that comes from the faith of Jesus Christ.

    1. Righteousness from the Mosaic law gives hope but questions who will work to bring about the hope. It questions because the Mosaic law does not give Jesus the Lord who brings about and is the substance of hope.
    2. Righteousness from the faith of Jesus Christ gives both the author of hope and finisher who brings about the hope. The word of faith (Jesus the Lord in our mouths) authors the substance of faith while the finisher (Jesus the Lord in our hearts) brings about the evidence of faith.
    Let me try to explain the problem--it is difficult to do. Paul is arguing against living by an outdated system, now that Christ has come. He is not arguing against the Law, while that system was in place. Rather, he is arguing against it as a system, now that it has been superseded.

    To return to the Law does all of the things you describe, but only if it represents a rejection of Christ. To go back to the Law, instead of to Christ, is to then look at the Law in a way it was never intended to be looked at.

    The Law was never intended to be looked at as a system without righteousness, without faith, and without hope in a final atonement. The Law was ever only intended to be seen as a temporary system that leads to an eternal fulfillment.

    In saying the Law was to bring life and eternal application was not to say that this system could achieve those things apart from Christ. But in rejecting Christ to go back to the Law is precisely that, to corrupt the proper view of the Law as originally given. It is to consign the Law to a system without righteousness, faith, and hope in eternal life.

    This is why Paul says that righteousness does not come by the Law, because in rejecting Christ and going back to the Law would be a betrayal of the Law as a system designed to lead to Christ. It is to turn the Law from a righteous system, pointing to Christ, to an unrighteous system, void of Christ.

    Paul, again, never meant to disparage the Law. He was just looking at the Law as it exists after Christ has come, as a system appealed to by those who have rejected Christ. It does not produce righteousness. It does not produce faith. It does not produce life. But in reality, the Law was meant to provide all of these things, when properly focused on Christ's final atonement.

    When the Law was still in effect, obedience to the Law was by faith and produced righteousness. God sanctioned that system, as a temporary atonement, in order to prepare men of faith for final redemption in Christ. Now that Christ has come, it is sheer lunacy to return to the Law, since its whole basis was a temporary redemption fulfilled in Christ.

  8. #8

    Re: the word from heaven

    To those who subscribe to the Mosaic law, it is (and remains) a schoolmaster pointing to the Christ. it does not (and cannot) have the realities of the Christ because it wasn't meant to.

    You cannot reject what you don't have or has been given to you; Christ was/is never given ;by the Mosaic law. So, the Mosaic law does not reject Christ. Rather, it points to the Christ.

    Neither was the Mosaic law meant to give life, produce the faith of God nor "focus on Christ's final atonement". You cannot make the Mosaic law to focus on Christ no matter how hard you try. It's goal, temporary in nature, is to point to the Christ. But, faith begins your focus leading to believe and, ultimately, to perfection in Christ.

    As long as the Mosaic law was/is in effect for those who subscribe, obedience was/is never by faith. Obedience was/is by doing the commandments of that law unto righteousness. Obedience of the faith of Christ is by walking in the steps of faith unto fruitfulness.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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