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Thread: the Law terribly misunderstood

  1. #16
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    What Scripture can I read that says this, so I can compare it to Galatians 2?
    I need to deal with this last part.

    Rom 3. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in Godís sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

    What Paul is saying is that the Law does produce righteousness, but is a "mixed" message of righteousness. It is a record of both righteous deeds and sin. No matter how much righteousness is produced, Man always produces sin along with it, simply because he or she has a sin nature.

    The Law was designed to promote righteousness, and also to expose our need for atonement for our sin. The guilt of our sin keeps us from eternal life. And so, God wanted to provide atonement for our sin so that we could obtain eternal fellowship with Him.

    So Paul was just agreeing with this, indicating that nobody can be declared *sinlessly perfect* under the Law. In Paul's words, "no one will be declared righteous."

    This isn't saying that men were always unrighteous under the Law--only that they could not be declared *perfectly righteous* under the Law, or beyond indictment for sin.

    You can plainly see that Paul indicated observance of the Law brought testimony to the righteousness of faith, which later was fulfilled in the atonement of Christ. At the atonement, Christ provided a perfect record of righteousness, and then gave his spiritual life to us, free of divine condemnation, simply because he chose to forgive us. His requirement was only that we embrace his spiritual life as our own. This was the basis of total redemption.

    However, we must note that this testimony was also the testimony of the Law, that final righteousness would come by Christ. Until that time the Law was a temporary form of righteousness that remained under the condemnation of sin. But temporary atonement worked to provide a temporary cover for Israel so that they could in the meantime live in relationship with God, and also live in the righteousness of God.

  2. #17
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    ....

    You utilize a lot of biblical terminology, and thus, there is a lot of truth in it. But I do disagree with your application of that terminology. I do *not* believe the Israel ceases to be Israel when they put their faith in Christ. I do *not* believe the Law of Moses is a contract that remains in effect in perpetuity, absent Israel's faith in Christ.

    ...
    OK. Thanks for your answer. But at this stage I have to take a time-out. It is just not possible to have a discussion. I blame nobody, but I wrote;
    Read this CAREFULLY.

    Israel had this Contract. If an Israelite BELIEVES in his Messiah, he (i) ceases to be an Israelite (2nd Cor.5:17) and is a New Creature, (ii) has his sin ans sins put away, (iii) he undergoes a rebirth which imparts eternal life and makes him a son of God, (iv) he enters a program in which God trains him to be in the image of Jesus (Rom.8:29), (v) he will be resurrected with celestial glory and (vi) rule the nations in the next age.
    And the supporting verses I gave, 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new",

    You ignored my wording completely, refused the scripture that said the same thing (man in the SINGULAR), and answered with the NATION of ISRAEL. I give up .... but no offense taken. You have your way and it's your right, but men cannot discuss like this.

  3. #18
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Thanks for your answer. But at this stage I have to take a time-out. It is just not possible to have a discussion. I blame nobody, but I wrote;
    Read this CAREFULLY.



    And the supporting verses I gave, 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new",

    You ignored my wording completely, refused the scripture that said the same thing (man in the SINGULAR), and answered with the NATION of ISRAEL. I give up .... but no offense taken. You have your way and it's your right, but men cannot discuss like this.
    This is precisely how men discuss possible misunderstandings, by not assuming malicious motives, and by explaining where the possible misunderstanding exists. I meant no ill will, and certainly did not intentionally twist your statements.

    Jews in Israel, while still under the Law, embraced Jesus as Messiah, and did not cease to be Jewish--did not cease to be members of Israel. And after Jesus initiated the new covenant through his death, these Jewish believers still did not cease to be Jewish, nor cease to be members of Israel.

    Paul argued that the difference between Jew and Gentile no longer mattered in who constituted citizens of God's Kingdom. This did matter under the Law. But Jesus initiated a change. The failure of *all men* under the Law indicated that citizenship in God's Kingdom was a matter of grace, and thus applicable to both Jews and non-Jews.

    Christians do not cease to have an ethnicity and a nationality. We simply are not barred from God's Kingdom due to our identification with those things.

  4. #19
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post

    * The sacrifices under the law did never remove sin.
    God disagrees:

    Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

    There are many scriptures that say the same thing. Paul was talking about sacrifices being unable to clear the conscious and memory of sin in people.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #20
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is precisely how men discuss possible misunderstandings, by not assuming malicious motives, and by explaining where the possible misunderstanding exists. I meant no ill will, and certainly did not intentionally twist your statements.

    Jews in Israel, while still under the Law, embraced Jesus as Messiah, and did not cease to be Jewish--did not cease to be members of Israel. And after Jesus initiated the new covenant through his death, these Jewish believers still did not cease to be Jewish, nor cease to be members of Israel.
    Sure but they were the first Christians ie: disciples of Christ and weren't practicing religion in the same way Jews did who did not accept Christ. This was a fork in the road where going the direction of Christ was one way, and rejecting Christ lead a different way.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #21
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    God disagrees:

    Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

    There are many scriptures that say the same thing. Paul was talking about sacrifices being unable to clear the conscious and memory of sin in people.
    See how one word can make the difference. One says "remove", the other quotes "forgiven". Let's be precise with scripture! Let's be precise with one another's arguments! It shows basic respect. And the man who is imprecise with others' words is usually imprecise with God's Word.

  7. #22

    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    See how one word can make the difference. One says "remove", the other quotes "forgiven". Let's be precise with scripture! Let's be precise with one another's arguments! It shows basic respect. And the man who is imprecise with others' words is usually imprecise with God's Word.
    1) Forgiveness removes any kind of debt burden from the forgiven. So, to remove the debt burden of a sin is to forgive the sin.

    2) The law produces righteousness when commandments are kept. Righteousness by the law is not sustainable, especially in the flesh, because it is compromised by our inability to keep all commandments of the law. A person who breaks one commandment of the law breaks all and, therefore, compromises his/her righteousness by the law.

    Faith produces righteousness when steps are kept. Righteousness by faith is sustainable because all promises in the faith of Christ must surely come to pass. A person who lives by the faith of God has no control over God who keeps all promises contained in His word of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    See how one word can make the difference. One says "remove", the other quotes "forgiven". Let's be precise with scripture! Let's be precise with one another's arguments! It shows basic respect. And the man who is imprecise with others' words is usually imprecise with God's Word.
    1) Forgiveness removes any kind of debt burden from the forgiven. So, to remove the debt burden of a sin is to forgive the sin.

    2) The law produces righteousness when commandments are kept. Righteousness by the law is not sustainable, especially in the flesh, because it is compromised by our inability to keep all commandments of the law. A person who breaks one commandment of the law breaks all and, therefore, compromises his/her righteousness by the law.

    Faith produces righteousness when steps are kept. Righteousness by faith is sustainable because all promises in the faith of Christ must surely come to pass. A person who lives by the faith of God has no control over God who keeps all promises contained in His word of faith.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  8. #23
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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    1) Forgiveness removes any kind of debt burden from the forgiven. So, to remove the debt burden of a sin is to forgive the sin.

    2) The law produces righteousness when commandments are kept. Righteousness by the law is not sustainable, especially in the flesh, because it is compromised by our inability to keep all commandments of the law. A person who breaks one commandment of the law breaks all and, therefore, compromises his/her righteousness by the law.

    Faith produces righteousness when steps are kept. Righteousness by faith is sustainable because all promises in the faith of Christ must surely come to pass. A person who lives by the faith of God has no control over God who keeps all promises contained in His word of faith.
    Thank you for your comments. I made and observation, and so did you. I'm happy to let your posting stand without comment. God bless.

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    Re: the Law terribly misunderstood

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Sure but they were the first Christians ie: disciples of Christ and weren't practicing religion in the same way Jews did who did not accept Christ. This was a fork in the road where going the direction of Christ was one way, and rejecting Christ lead a different way.
    A number of Jews tried to have it both ways, Christianity plus Judaism. The question is, How did Paul mean to depreciate the value of one's ethnicity and one's nationality? My argument is that he was not stripping Christians of these things. Rather, he was stating, as fact, that these things did not, any longer, present an obstacle to a common inheritance.

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