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Thread: Like a Thief in the Night

  1. #46
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The concrete reality of the OT temple is used, in a NT vision, to express NT truths that fulfil the symbolism of the OT temple. We know the OT temple was modeled after a NT reality, and thus was symbolic of something not concrete in the earthly sense. That same temple can be used in the NT period for the same purpose, to express NT realities.
    You hoist yourself on your own reasoning - the CONCRETE REALITY....
    The point is that when John wrote these words there was NO concrete (or stone) reality, for that temple was gone. So people who hold your view are then forced to claim that Revelation was written BEFORE the temple was destroyed. John wrote this as a REAL temple being in existence. Without a REAL temple then the statements are MEANINGLESS.

  2. #47
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You hoist yourself on your own reasoning - the CONCRETE REALITY....
    The point is that when John wrote these words there was NO concrete (or stone) reality, for that temple was gone. So people who hold your view are then forced to claim that Revelation was written BEFORE the temple was destroyed. John wrote this as a REAL temple being in existence. Without a REAL temple then the statements are MEANINGLESS.
    Not at all. I believe Revelation took place *after* the temple had been destroyed and was no longer a concrete reality. Reference to the temple, therefore, was a vision of what *used to be* a concrete reality. It is a portrait of the OT temple, and was used as an illustration of what *used to be* genuine worship under the Law.

    And so, in my view, the temple worship in Rev 11 displays true worshippers in the NT period who like their counterparts in the OT observed the Law of God meticulously. That's why it was measured, to ensure that worship was being done in exact accord with God's law.

  3. #48
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Not at all. I believe Revelation took place *after* the temple had been destroyed and was no longer a concrete reality. Reference to the temple, therefore, was a vision of what *used to be* a concrete reality. It is a portrait of the OT temple, and was used as an illustration of what *used to be* genuine worship under the Law.

    And so, in my view, the temple worship in Rev 11 displays true worshippers in the NT period who like their counterparts in the OT observed the Law of God meticulously. That's why it was measured, to ensure that worship was being done in exact accord with God's law.
    Wow. So if the temple is gone and John is writing to churches in Gentile lands, WHY is he using OT imagery of something you claim is past? It is meaningless.
    Additionally Rev 11 makes a DISTINCTION between the worshippers and the building, yet you make NO allowance or explanation as to why this is.

  4. #49
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow. So if the temple is gone and John is writing to churches in Gentile lands, WHY is he using OT imagery of something you claim is past? It is meaningless.
    Additionally Rev 11 makes a DISTINCTION between the worshippers and the building, yet you make NO allowance or explanation as to why this is.
    The distinction between the worshippers and the building is to portray the relationship that existed, in the OT era, between worshippers and their meticulous observance of temple law. Only those who devoted themselves, meticulously, to the observance of God's Law were considered faithful in God's sight. It is no different in the NT era. Only those who devote themselves, meticulously, to the righteousness of Christ are considered faithful in God's sight.

    The reason OT symbolism is used in the Revelation is because it was written not longer after the era of OT Law had passed. It was still the Christian Bible, and served to show aspects of Christ's ministry that are important to the Christian. We are to devote ourselves, meticulously, to the righteousness of Christ. This is aptly demonstrated in the temple law, where attention was paid, with great sobriety, to the importance of Christ's atonement, as well as to the importance of his righteousness.

    Throughout the book of Revelation we are given OT symbols of the temple, which we know are no longer concrete realities on the earth. We are told about the altar, the ark, and here, the temple. They represent the works of Christ in atoning for our sins, and in transmitting to us his spiritual righteousness.

    The overrunning of the Outer Court, in this vision, is a throwback to Christ's prediction that the temple would be destroyed by the pagan Gentiles. And John is here reasserting that truth, that the pagan Gentiles would continue to overrun Israel's national life and OT worship.

    However, the temple now represents, in the NT era, a new kind of worship that cannot be overrun by pagan Gentiles. This temple is our heavenly worship, I believe. It is now safeguarded by Christ in heaven, who rules over all authority. This is not spelled out here. But I believe it has to be assumed, theologically.

  5. #50
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The distinction between the worshippers and the building is to portray the relationship that existed, in the OT era, between worshippers and their meticulous observance of temple law. Only those who devoted themselves, meticulously, to the observance of God's Law were considered faithful in God's sight. It is no different in the NT era. Only those who devote themselves, meticulously, to the righteousness of Christ are considered faithful in God's sight.
    Wow!
    So John is teaching the future state by saying we need to be diligent to keeping the Law?
    I can't believe you are writing this!
    Also NOWHERE in Rev 11 does it even hint at the rubbish you are suggesting.
    It is NOT a vision giving some bizarre teaching of NT righteousness, but a statement of what John is told to measure because that is what he is shown, and it is stated in relation to the 2W.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wow!
    So John is teaching the future state by saying we need to be diligent to keeping the Law?
    I can't believe you are writing this!
    Also NOWHERE in Rev 11 does it even hint at the rubbish you are suggesting.
    It is NOT a vision giving some bizarre teaching of NT righteousness, but a statement of what John is told to measure because that is what he is shown, and it is stated in relation to the 2W.
    I'm not sure what you're arguing against, because you're arguing against things I didn't say? I never said Christians are told to keep the Law of Moses! But of course as Christians we still keep the Law of Christ! Do you think we obey no laws at all?

    As I said, NT theology prevents us from reasserting a concrete temple because the OT Law is passť. Revelation is utilizing OT symbolism to express how it has been fulfilled in Christ. It depicts Israel's worship at the temple to show that as there had been true worshipers in Israel during the OT period, so also there will continue to be a remnant of Christian believers in Israel in the NT era.

    Do you ever get tired of calling the views of your opponents "rubbish?"

  7. #52
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure what you're arguing against, because you're arguing against things I didn't say? I never said Christians are told to keep the Law of Moses! But of course as Christians we still keep the Law of Christ! Do you think we obey no laws at all?
    Wow, so you ARE under the Law. You simply substitute one for the other.

    As I said, NT theology prevents us from reasserting a concrete temple because the OT Law is passť. Revelation is utilizing OT symbolism to express how it has been fulfilled in Christ. It depicts Israel's worship at the temple to show that as there had been true worshipers in Israel during the OT period, so also there will continue to be a remnant of Christian believers in Israel in the NT era.
    Why do you continue to assert something without any scripture to support it?

    Do you ever get tired of calling the views of your opponents "rubbish?"
    Not really as rubbish is simply rubbish.
    However when your views are not rubbish then I won't call them that.
    Not everything you put is rubbish, but naturally you pick up on the ones which are highlighted as being so.
    It is COMPLETE rubbish to claim that John would even consider using OT symbolism of something which is ALREADY past and gone and meaningless for his audience. Was John writing to the Jews? Nope. Would any of these people even have been to the Temple?

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