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Thread: Like a Thief in the Night

  1. #91
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    While we disagree on other points, at least we agree on this one.
    Except you are saying the beast rules for 42 months after this which clearly is impossible.

    "the 2Ws will finish the ministry BEFORE the 3.5 years of the AC commences."


    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    The 2w ministry is finished and they go to heaven.

    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    THE SAME HOUR...an EQ happens.

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly/IMMEDIATELY.

    Then IMMEDIATELY the 7th trump sounds and you agree what the word QUICKLY means...so where is the supposed 3.5 years the beast rules after the end of the 2w's ministry?

    This nonsense is all based on misunderstanding this verse:

    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    The answer is "the 2w" but they will lose the war and be killed. Never does this verse say they cannot fight the beast for awhile. That has spawned this false teaching that the 2w's 1260 days starts first, then when they are in heaven then the 42 months of the beast starts but that's all fantasy. No scriptures support it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Keraz, would you say that the 2Ws 1260 days ministry run concurrent or consecutive to the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign?
    They are concurrent.
    I see the time periods of 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years, given in Revelation as all describing the same period; the final three and a half years before Jesus Returns.
    Is it the second half of the 7 year peace Treaty made between the AC and new Israel; all the Christians. The 70th 'week' of Daniel 9:27.

    The first half will be peaceful, so doesn't merit a mention in Revelation.

  3. #93
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why didn't you look up what it means in a Greek dictionary?

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    takh-oo'
    Neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb); shortly, that is, without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication of ease) readily: - lightly, quickly.

    It doesn't mean an *indefinite time period.*. You made that up. The actual definition is "without delay" and "suddenly".
    That's silly. "Soon" means what it means, and it is not a definitive time that is set. If I say I'm coming soon, it doesn't tell you precisely what day and hour I'm coming.

  4. #94
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's silly. "Soon" means what it means, and it is not a definitive time that is set. If I say I'm coming soon, it doesn't tell you precisely what day and hour I'm coming.
    The word means soon as in no delay not an opened ended "soon" you are inventing. The Greek word's meaning cannot be altered. There is no time between the end of the 2nd woe and the start of the 3rd woe, the 7th trump. The same day the two prophets go up into heaven is when the 7th trump sounds and Christ returns....the beast is fully out of time as it and the FP are defeated that same day.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The word means soon as in no delay not an opened ended "soon" you are inventing. The Greek word's meaning cannot be altered. There is no time between the end of the 2nd woe and the start of the 3rd woe, the 7th trump. The same day the two prophets go up into heaven is when the 7th trump sounds and Christ returns....the beast is fully out of time as it and the FP are defeated that same day.
    No silly. I'm not inventing anything. "Soon" does not mean "immediately." It means in the near future in an indefinite sense.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No silly. I'm not inventing anything. "Soon" does not mean "immediately." It means in the near future in an indefinite sense.
    I have already proven the Greek word in the verse does not mean what you claim it means.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    Thayer Definition:
    1) quickly, speedily (without delay)
    Part of Speech: adverb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb)
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #97
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I have already proven the Greek word in the verse does not mean what you claim it means.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    Thayer Definition:
    1) quickly, speedily (without delay)
    Part of Speech: adverb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb)
    You have proven no such thing. https://biblehub.com/greek/5035.htm For the word "tachu".....

    "[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]"

    This suggests that "promptly" can indicate "no delay," but does not mean "immediately." It's common sense--"soon" in English does not mean "immediately," but rather, something like ASAP. It is *not* immediate, except in a very general sense.

    If I tell you I'm coming "soon," it means not that I'm coming *now,* but rather, that I'm coming sooner rather than later--it is indefinite, but without unnecessary delay. It is no different in the Greek.

    Relative to waiting years for your bride to come to the US from the Philippines "she is coming soon" would mean that she's coming perhaps in the next few months. It is not, she is coming *tomorrow.*

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The mention of Abaddon's rise from the Bottomless Pit is too ambiguous for me to form a doctrine around. It has to be significant, simply because it is mentioned. But inasmuch as I do not personally understand it, I cannot form a doctrine around it.

    Rev 11.6 suggests that the Beast comes up out of the Abyss. And in 13.1 he comes up out of the Sea. In 9.11 Apollyon comes from the sky, and has the key to the Abyss, and is called the Angel of the Abyss. Putting these verses together is not conducive to establishing firm doctrinal positions. The Beast is, I believe, a man and a kingdom. Apollyon is an angel. They could be related, but they do not appear to be the same being.
    OK, I get you. So let's try another tack. The ONLY clue provided by scripture as to the identity of the killer of the 2Ws is the following.

    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    We must, therefore, search the scriptures to find out whether the Antichrist ever ascended out of the bottomless pit? And if not, which other beast did? And the answer is, the only Beast that arises of the bottomless pit is Abaddon/Apollyon (Rev 9:11). We cannot ignore scripture for fear of being accused of building a doctrine, more so, when the supposed doctrine is true.

    You said Rev 11:6 whereas it is v-7 that mention "abyss" which is the bottomless pit in many translations. In contrast, the AC in Rev 13:1 is said to rise up out of the sea. The "sea" in this context denotes the peoples of the world as corroborated in Dan 7:3 referring to the four Beast kingdoms. Rev 9:1 says that a STAR, not "Apollyon" fell from heaven to the earth and unto him was given the key to the Abyss or bottomless pit. At least you got it right that Apollyon is an angel and a king over the demons in the Abyss and completely different from the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This statement is, of course, an opinion, because *nothing* is said explicitly to this effect. Nowhere does it say that the 2 Witnesses precede the rise of Antichrist's power.
    A diligent study of the end-time events shows it is impossible for the time of the Witnesses and the AC to be concurrent. For e.g., Israel has to first receive the Gospel of the Witnesses before their flight into the desert. I don't need to remind you that Israel's time away in the desert (3.5 years) is the same timeline for both the 2Ws and the AC. Therefore, to have God send the Witnesses without the whole Israel available to hear them will certainly defeat the purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This also is pure opinion. Nowhere are we told there is more than a single block of 3.5 years. My argument is that the basis for the 3.5 years in the book of Revelation is a *single reference* to a period of 3.5 years in Dan 7. Nowhere in Dan 7 is there mentioned *2 periods* of 3.5 years!
    While Daniel was given the vision of the AC with his 3.5 years reign, he was not however given the prophecy of the Witnesses. So your argument does not necessarily invalidate the truth of the 3.5 years of the 2Ws and another for the Beast. In fact, I believe One Week of Dan 9:27 is the last 7 years before Jesus returns.

  9. #99
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    OK, I get you. So let's try another tack. The ONLY clue provided by scripture as to the identity of the killer of the 2Ws is the following.

    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    We must, therefore, search the scriptures to find out whether the Antichrist ever ascended out of the bottomless pit? And if not, which other beast did? And the answer is, the only Beast that arises of the bottomless pit is Abaddon/Apollyon (Rev 9:11). We cannot ignore scripture for fear of being accused of building a doctrine, more so, when the supposed doctrine is true.
    Not ignoring that. It's reasonable--however, where do you get that Apollyon is a "beast" that ascends out of the bottomless pit?
    As I see it, he is said to be a "star" and a "king." Where is he said to be a "beast," apart from your assumption that this "king" is the same as the "beast" who ascends out of the bottomless pit?

    Of course, you're making a very reasonable assumption because the "beast coming out of the bottomless pit" seems to be addressed as if he had been previously referred to. But my point is that inasmuch as he is called a "star" in the 1st instance, and a "beast" in the 2nd instance, indicates to me that they may refer to a dual personality, perhaps a mix between the human Antichrist and his possession by an evil spirit, or Satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    You said Rev 11:6 whereas it is v-7 that mention "abyss" which is the bottomless pit in many translations. In contrast, the AC in Rev 13:1 is said to rise up out of the sea. The "sea" in this context denotes the peoples of the world as corroborated in Dan 7:3 referring to the four Beast kingdoms. Rev 9:1 says that a STAR, not "Apollyon" fell from heaven to the earth and unto him was given the key to the Abyss or bottomless pit. At least you got it right that Apollyon is an angel and a king over the demons in the Abyss and completely different from the AC.
    I guess I don't understand. I'm thinking that the Antichrist is a Satan-possessed king who rises up out of the sea. The Abyss may perhaps have been a spiritual counterpart of the earthly "sea?" As Antichrist rises up out of earth, or out of humanity, the angel from heaven, Satan, is bringing out of the abyss evil demons.

    The angel over the bottomless pit does not ascend out of the Abyss in Rev 9, but it does say, Rev 11, that the Beast rises up out of the Abyss, or Bottomless Pit. All this makes for much confusion for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    A diligent study of the end-time events shows it is impossible for the time of the Witnesses and the AC to be concurrent. For e.g., Israel has to first receive the Gospel of the Witnesses before their flight into the desert. I don't need to remind you that Israel's time away in the desert (3.5 years) is the same timeline for both the 2Ws and the AC. Therefore, to have God send the Witnesses without the whole Israel available to hear them will certainly defeat the purpose.
    You're making a huge presumptuous leap here. Where in the Scriptures does it say that the 2 Witnesses convert Israel during the 3.5 years of their testimony? In my view, the Scriptures indicate that Israel finally gets converted *at* the Coming of Christ, and not before. The Christian remnant of Israel already exists, both now and in the time when the 2 Witnesses begin their ministry.

    The ministry of the 2 Witnesses is that of a prophet like Elijah who declared judgment against Israel. As Elijah prophesied a drought during the time of his ministry, so the 2 Witnesses apparently do the same. So this is a ministry of *judgment* against Israel, in preparation for their ultimate rehabilitation. It is not an evangelistic crusade! You are therefore basing your position on something that is apparently *not* in the Scriptures!

    The Woman escaping to her place in the wilderness may be representative of the elect believers in Israel who endure a kind of "Wilderness experience" of Israel, while she is in her time of Great Tribulation. There is nothing to say the Woman is converted nor compelled by the 2 Witnesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    While Daniel was given the vision of the AC with his 3.5 years reign, he was not however given the prophecy of the Witnesses. So your argument does not necessarily invalidate the truth of the 3.5 years of the 2Ws and another for the Beast. In fact, I believe One Week of Dan 9:27 is the last 7 years before Jesus returns.
    No, as I said, Dan 9 refers to a 70 Weeks of years period of time that expires at the time of Christ's death, and in that generation in which the temple was destroyed. Therefore, the 70th Week cannot be broken up into 2 separate endtimes periods of 3.5 years.

    On the contrary, Dan 7 is the prophecy that deals with the endtimes period. If any prophecy should mention the 2 Witnesses it would be this one.

    But it doesn't, as you indicate. Neither does it mention 2 periods of 3.5 years each. Since we only have a single period of 3.5 years, in which Antichrist will reign, we can safely assume that this endtimes period is one period of 3.5 years. There is nothing to make us think there is another similar period in which the 2 Witnesses prophesy.

    You are basing a position that you think is undeniable on biblical statements that *do not exist.* You are reading into the account of the 2 Witnesses the idea that this 3.5 year period is *separate from* the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule. But there is no basis for this whatsoever. Apart from your assumptions the explicit statements from the Bible that we do have would cause us to assume that there is only one 3.5 year period in the endtimes. And as I've shown you, not only is it plausible to have the 2 Witnesses alive during the Reign of Antichrist, but it is likely. It is the power of the 2 Witnesses that enable them to withstand the hostility of the Antichrist.

    Rev 11.5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.

    It is only at the end of their testimony that the Antichrist is able to defeat and kill the 2 Witnesses.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    This suggests that "promptly" can indicate "no delay," but does not mean "immediately."
    Immediately and no delay are synonyms. Obviously your own created definition of it meaning an "indefinite" amount of time remains wrong. Hopefully you will admit your error with "no delay" rather than stubbornly denying it "indefinitely".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Immediately and no delay are synonyms. Obviously your own created definition of it meaning an "indefinite" amount of time remains wrong. Hopefully you will admit your error with "no delay" rather than stubbornly denying it "indefinitely".
    Sorry, I'm not going to sacrifice common sense for your own extreme bias. When you sacrifice the meaning of words to be "right," there's no sense going on with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Immediately and no delay are synonyms. Obviously your own created definition of it meaning an "indefinite" amount of time remains wrong. Hopefully you will admit your error with "no delay" rather than stubbornly denying it "indefinitely".
    Sorry, I'm not going to sacrifice common sense for your own extreme bias. When you sacrifice the meaning of words to be "right," there's no sense going on with you.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry, I'm not going to sacrifice common sense for your own extreme bias. When you sacrifice the meaning of words to be "right," there's no sense going on with you.
    Those words need to be spoken to you not spoken by you.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #103
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    Thayer Definition:
    1) quickly, speedily (without delay)
    Part of Speech: adverb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb)


    Gill:

    And behold the third woe cometh quickly; immediately, upon the passing of the other; namely, the sounding of the seventh trumpet, as follows.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #104
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    Thayer Definition:
    1) quickly, speedily (without delay)
    Part of Speech: adverb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb)


    Gill:

    And behold the third woe cometh quickly; immediately, upon the passing of the other; namely, the sounding of the seventh trumpet, as follows.
    I can't believe you're so obtuse, brother. "Without delay" and "quickly" are relative terms in themselves. They can mean immediately, but do not convey the *necessary* sense of immediacy. As I pointed out to you, which you *completely ignored,* the Greek experts say this:
    "[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]"

    Take up your fight with them! But as a matter of common sense, I gave you an example in which we commonly suggest something should happen soon, and even though the thing is being called for "without unnecessary delay," the idea does not exclude a process of time beyond "immediately" or "now." "Soon" is not synonymous with "now."

    In other words, I can say that "she is coming soon" and it does not have to be today. "Soon" can be tomorrow.

    It is the same way with Christ's return. Although we can legitimately say he is coming "soon," he has not come yet, and will not even come tomorrow. He will not even come next year. And yet, he is still coming "soon."

    Your hard-heartedness in this betrays your otherwise good sense. I don't even care that you want to only look at the extreme side of this. What concerns me is your insulting attitude towards me, who is only telling you the truth!

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I can't believe you're so obtuse, brother. "Without delay" and "quickly" are relative terms in themselves. They can mean immediately, but do not convey the *necessary* sense of immediacy. As I pointed out to you, which you *completely ignored,* the Greek experts say this:
    "[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]"
    Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

    That's something said by "Helps Ministries" and they are clearly no experts in Greek or English. Strong's and Thayer's and Gill disagree with them.


    What concerns me is your insulting attitude towards me, who is only telling you the truth!
    No one likes to be proven they are wrong so they get upset. It's a common reaction.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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