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Thread: Like a Thief in the Night

  1. #76
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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    How? Hardly anyone will believe the 2w. Most will be deceived by the AC.
    Really, and you base this claim on what passage?
    I base mine on this:
    Rev 11:6* They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.*

    So IF the 2W are sending these plagues as often as they desire, do you think people will say, of yes the AC is god, just he is unable to do anything about these 2W who keep sending plagues!
    It is when the beast KILLS the 2W THEN he will be able to claim to be god. For he will have shown himself greater than them.

    It doesn't say that. They measure one part, and don't measure another part but nothing there says the AC or gentiles cannot enter during the 42 months since the measuring is done by John before the 2w ministry or the 42 months even begin.
    Actually it does say that:
    Rev 11:2* but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

    Here the outer court is given over, but the inner court is NOT. The city and outer court are trampled for 42 months but the inner is NOT.
    John is told to measure at the time the 2W are granted authority to witness.

    As I explained, the same day the two prophets rise into heaven is the same day Christ returns so it is impossible for the beast to reign after that day let alone for 42 more months.
    No it is NOT the same day. I know you have claimed this, and so I dealt with your claim.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    The beasts reign is over not just beginning.
    Nope, the beast's reign on earth is just beginning.
    You see IF you note what you underlined, then you should note that refers to the GWToJ, yet BOTH of us agree that does NOT occur until the MK is over.
    IOW everything stated in these verses are now put into motion, but it is more than a thousand years BEFORE it is ALL completed.

    "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" Are you really saying this happens at the moment the 7th trumpet is blown?
    I didn't realise you were Amil!

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    At the 7th Trumpet, the kingdoms belong to God, but God is allowing the beasts from the abyss (sea & earth) to come back to tempt people. This is the manner by which the tares are gathered. They don't get the 1260 days that Satan has said that they get.

    This is the flood of the 'days of Noah' (Matthew 24:36-39 & Matthew 25:1-12) that lasts for 5 months (the 5th Trumpet is an imitation of this same flood) from 17 Iyyar to 17 Tishri. God's kingdom is not set up instantaneously because the tares have to be gathered via the false prophet. Once gathered, then they are disposed of. this is what is going on in Matt 25's parable of the 10 virgins. The foolish virgins have to decide whether to go 'to those who buy and sell'.

    When Rev 17 is talking about the 'beast that was, is not, yet is', the beast 'was' at the start of the Trumpets. The beast is 'coming up from the abyss' to battle the 2 witnesses & kill them. That is the 'yet is' portion of their rule, at the start of the 7th Trumpet.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The answer is the 2w but in the end they are killed.
    Do you realise that it's not the AC that will kill the 2Ws? So your claim that they will reign at the same time as the AC is not tenable.

    It makes perfect sense plus I already proved there is no room for 42 months after the two prophets rise into heaven. A few things happen and then immediately after Christ returns so this whole idea that the 42 months start after the 2w is impossible according to the text.
    It is your position that is actually "impossible".

    1. Are you suggesting that the 2Ws will be on earth during the GT because we know it occurs during the 42 months of the beast?
    2. Rev 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    a. Between the 2Ws and the saints above who are clearly in heaven, which group do you reckon went to heaven first?
    b. Or do you believe they arrived in heaven at the same time?

    2. Are you saying that the 2Ws will be on earth during the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:17)

    Rev 12 happens before the trib begins so they are different time periods despite being the same length of time.
    If Rev 12:6 occurs before the GT, then what is the woman/Israel running away from? Remember we are told in v-14 that she ran into the wilderness where is nourished for 3.5 years? If we are to believe your argument, the GT is yet to start by the time the woman is in the wilderness. So tell us who or what she's running from?

    I don't know what "Israel is not in Jerusalem?" is. If you think there is a time when no Jews are in Jerusalem I would highly doubt that.
    The purpose of sending the 2Ws is to turn the hearts of Israel back to God, although some will believe and the majority will not. My point, therefore, is that if the majority are in the wilderness before or during the time the 2Ws are preaching in Jerusalem, won't their absence defeat the purpose of their assignment?

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe it can be right. There is only a single 3.5 year period mentioned in the book of Daniel, with respect to the Reign of Antichrist. And I believe the book of Revelation refers to this single period of time. I don't believe it has a thing to do with Daniel's 70 Weeks, but it is a period mirrored by the reign of Antiochus 4, which is also mentioned in the book of Daniel.

    I believe the 2 Witnesses are killed, finally, by Antichrist at the end of his 1260 day reign. But they lay in the streets of Jerusalem for another 3 days before they are raised up again.

    The Coming of Christ follows an indefinite period of time *after* the 2 Witnesses are raised up and ascend into heaven. Antichrist's 1260 day reign seems to refer to a time when Antichrist holds sway over the entire earth, militarily. And at the end of this period there may be a revolt against his rule by the world outside of Europe. The world is then drawn into a conflict, initiated at Armageddon.

    The duration of this period, in which the world draws near to war, is an indefinite period, but follows the 1260 days of Antichrist's dominance. I see no conflict with the death of the 2 Witnesses taking place at the end of the 1260 days, and with Christ's 2nd Coming taking place soon after, following an indefinite period of time?
    Well, according to scripture, the 1260 days that the 2Ws ministry will run is DEFINITELY consecutive to the 3.5 years of the AC's reign. The problem and confusion for some is that, they don't realise that scripture sort of interchanged the years: 3.5 years, 42 months and 1260 days - but they are all the same in length of time.

    The prophecy in Revelation continued where that of Daniel ended. Notice that the 2Ws and their 2600 days ministry was not given to Daniel? The AC did not kill the 2Ws, rather, the angel from the bottomless pit did.

    The 2Ws ministry will last for 1260 days or 3.5 years, after their death and ascension to heaven, the AC will formally commence his own 3.5 years reign. And we know that Jesus returns at the end of this period. So your assertion that Jesus Christ' coming "follows an indefinite period after the 2Ws" isn't true because the timescale is anything but *indefinite* - as it is clearly spelt out.

    The end-time events are if anything, clearly specified in terms of timescale, so it's inexplicable that you repeatedly used "indefinite" to describe events that scripture provided its timescale.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Do you realise that it's not the AC that will kill the 2Ws? So your claim that they will reign at the same time as the AC is not tenable.
    Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

    I see the "Beast" and the Antichrist as one and the same. And I see that the "Beast" can represent either the Antichrist himself or the Kingdom over which he presides.

    Therefore, in my view, it is indeed the Antichrist who kills the 2 Witnesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    It is your position that is actually "impossible".

    1. Are you suggesting that the 2Ws will be on earth during the GT because we know it occurs during the 42 months of the beast?
    Yes. The 2Ws will be on earth during the 3.5 years of the Little Horn (Rev 7), because the doctrine of the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist is based exclusively on Dan 7. There is, therefore, only one 3.5 year period of time at the end of the age, during which Antichrist reigns.

    The idea of more than one 3.5 year period is purely designed to accommodate a chronological interpretation of the book of Revelation. And I believe that is faulty. In my view, it is *impossible* that the book of Revelation be interpreted chronologically, because that would make Christ return more than once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    2. Rev 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    a. Between the 2Ws and the saints above who are clearly in heaven, which group do you reckon went to heaven first?
    b. Or do you believe they arrived in heaven at the same time?
    I believe you're too tied up in the chronology--not that there isn't an actual chronology of some sort. The general resurrection/ascension of the saints takes place at the 2nd Coming. This is on the "last day," which is at the very end of the time of Antichrist. It is on this day that Antichrist is actually defeated.

    By contrast, the 2 Witnesses are resurrected/ascended prior to the Last Day. They rise up 3.5 days after the 1260 day period, which is on the 1264th day of Antichrist's reign.

    It is then that the world turns against Antichrist, in my view. Antichrist gathers forces in the world against the forces that God backs up. And the Battle of Armageddon takes place, which is a nuclear war, in my opinioin.

    This war does not destroy the world, but rather, decimates Europe, along with other major countries. It will be a large-scale conflagration, upsetting the balance of power that had been in favor of Antichrist.

    The forces of Christianity will then assume power, with the backing of resurrected Christians who have ascended into the heavens. The devil will be imprisoned, although sinful mankind will still exist. International warfare will be temporarily set back for a thousand years.

    The point is, between the time the 2 Witnesses rise and the actual Battle of Armageddon will be an unknown length of time. How long it takes nations to rise up against Antichrist, and how long it takes Antichrist to muster his own forces against them, I don't know. But the point is, the 2 Witnesses and the general resurrection are *not* simultaneous events. Nor is this an irrational scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    2. Are you saying that the 2Ws will be on earth during the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:17)
    The frequent mention of God's Wrath in the Revelation does not indicate that *final* Wrath is taking place during the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule. It isn't like the 10 plagues that plagued Egypt during the Exodus. That series of events happened over a period of time. Final Wrath will take place exclusively at the *end of the age,* on the Last Day.

    But there are elements of God's Wrath during the reign of Antichrist as well--I just wouldn't call it "God's Wrath." That would imply that the Tribulation Saints are suffering God's Wrath, which is just plain wrong.

    Biblically, the "Tribulation" that happens in this present age, and which concludes under the Reign of Antichrist, has to do with Jewish punishment. Christians suffer due to the bad decisions of others. This is not God's Final Wrath, but only a series of punishments designed to allow people to be saved while restricting the activities of wicked men.

    The Tribulation of the Jews also becomes the tribulation of Christian nations, as they follow the model of Israel's apostasy. This sets the stage of European apostasy and for Christian suffering in Europe. They do not, however, suffer "God's Wrath!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    If Rev 12:6 occurs before the GT, then what is the woman/Israel running away from? Remember we are told in v-14 that she ran into the wilderness where is nourished for 3.5 years? If we are to believe your argument, the GT is yet to start by the time the woman is in the wilderness. So tell us who or what she's running from?
    The 3.5 years in the Wilderness experienced by the Woman represents *believing* Israel, and not all Israel. The Woman has to do with believers only. This time is synonymous with the time of Antichrist's rule, and Christian Jews are preserved during this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    The purpose of sending the 2Ws is to turn the hearts of Israel back to God, although some will believe and the majority will not. My point, therefore, is that if the majority are in the wilderness before or during the time the 2Ws are preaching in Jerusalem, won't their absence defeat the purpose of their assignment?
    I believe the 2 Witnesses witness to Jews in Israel, and turn some to Christ. Perhaps this is what causes Christians, among the Jews, to flee into the wilderness? But I'm really reaching now...

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

    I see the "Beast" and the Antichrist as one and the same. And I see that the "Beast" can represent either the Antichrist himself or the Kingdom over which he presides. Therefore, in my view, it is indeed the Antichrist who kills the 2 Witnesses.
    I, too, believed it was the AC for years until recently. What disqualifies the AC is the fact that this beast came out of the bottomless pit. You will not find anywhere in scripture that the AC came out of the bottomless pit. The *baddie* (according to my 6yrs old nephew) rather is Abaddon or Apollyon (Rev 9:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes. The 2Ws will be on earth during the 3.5 years of the Little Horn (Rev 7), because the doctrine of the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist is based exclusively on Dan 7. There is, therefore, only one 3.5 year period of time at the end of the age, during which Antichrist reigns.

    The idea of more than one 3.5 year period is purely designed to accommodate a chronological interpretation of the book of Revelation. And I believe that is faulty. In my view, it is *impossible* that the book of Revelation be interpreted chronologically, because that would make Christ return more than once.
    Allow me to elaborate. Of course, the AC will be on earth at the time of the 2Ws, but will only manifest and assume power AFTER the death and ascension of the Witnesses. On the contrary, there is a block of 3.5 years albeit, described differently in other places, e.g. 1260 days or 42 months. Both are equal to 3.5 years. It is impossible not to recognise that corroboration between Dan 9:27 "seven weeks" [seven years] with the end times 2 blocks of 3.5 years. IOW, the AC's 3.5 years reign starts immediately at the end of the Witnesses 3.5 years ministry.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe you're too tied up in the chronology--not that there isn't an actual chronology of some sort. The general resurrection/ascension of the saints takes place at the 2nd Coming. This is on the "last day," which is at the very end of the time of Antichrist. It is on this day that Antichrist is actually defeated.

    By contrast, the 2 Witnesses are resurrected/ascended prior to the Last Day. They rise up 3.5 days after the 1260 day period, which is on the 1264th day of Antichrist's reign.

    It is then that the world turns against Antichrist, in my view. Antichrist gathers forces in the world against the forces that God backs up. And the Battle of Armageddon takes place, which is a nuclear war, in my opinioin.

    This war does not destroy the world, but rather, decimates Europe, along with other major countries. It will be a large-scale conflagration, upsetting the balance of power that had been in favor of Antichrist.

    The forces of Christianity will then assume power, with the backing of resurrected Christians who have ascended into the heavens. The devil will be imprisoned, although sinful mankind will still exist. International warfare will be temporarily set back for a thousand years.

    The point is, between the time the 2 Witnesses rise and the actual Battle of Armageddon will be an unknown length of time. How long it takes nations to rise up against Antichrist, and how long it takes Antichrist to muster his own forces against them, I don't know. But the point is, the 2 Witnesses and the general resurrection are *not* simultaneous events. Nor is this an irrational scenario.
    For a start, it is not stated anywhere in scripture that "the world will turn against the Antichrist". I don't know where you got that because the scripture is emphatic that no flesh can war against the Beast (Rev 13:4). So this war you invented that purportedly decimates Europe is not actually scriptural. It is only the Lord's army coming from heaven that will battle the Beast army at Armageddon. IOW, it will be between immortal saints headed the Lord of Hosts himself and mortals that make up the AC's army.

    You know I never advocated that the Book of Revelation of the eschaton is anything, but chronological? But it does not negate the fact some events follow an established sequence in occurrence. As I pointed out in another post, you are clearly mistaken by claiming that the timeline between the resurrection of the Witnesses and the Return of the Messiah is unknown. The space of time actually is 3.5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The frequent mention of God's Wrath in the Revelation does not indicate that *final* Wrath is taking place during the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule. It isn't like the 10 plagues that plagued Egypt during the Exodus. That series of events happened over a period of time. Final Wrath will take place exclusively at the *end of the age,* on the Last Day.

    But there are elements of God's Wrath during the reign of Antichrist as well--I just wouldn't call it "God's Wrath." That would imply that the Tribulation Saints are suffering God's Wrath, which is just plain wrong.

    Biblically, the "Tribulation" that happens in this present age, and which concludes under the Reign of Antichrist, has to do with Jewish punishment. Christians suffer due to the bad decisions of others. This is not God's Final Wrath, but only a series of punishments designed to allow people to be saved while restricting the activities of wicked men.

    The Tribulation of the Jews also becomes the tribulation of Christian nations, as they follow the model of Israel's apostasy. This sets the stage of European apostasy and for Christian suffering in Europe. They do not, however, suffer "God's Wrath!"
    Scripture is explicit that the Wrath of the Lamb will occur BEFORE Jesus returns. It occurs after the opening of the 6th seal; read Rev 6:12-17

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The 3.5 years in the Wilderness experienced by the Woman represents *believing* Israel, and not all Israel. The Woman has to do with believers only. This time is synonymous with the time of Antichrist's rule, and Christian Jews are preserved during this time.
    I'm glad we at least have the same understanding regarding the woman in the wilderness. But where you're mistaken is in not realising that it is those Israel that turns to Christ from the preaching of the Witnesses that eventually flee into the wilderness after the death of the Witnesses. It is actually this flight that Matthew had in mind chapter 24 OD! It is impossible for them to flee before the end of the 2Ws ministry.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe the 2 Witnesses witness to Jews in Israel, and turn some to Christ. Perhaps this is what causes Christians, among the Jews, to flee into the wilderness? But I'm really reaching now...
    You are among those that steadfastly advance the doctrine of Israel's end-time national revival. How come when it eventually comes, you don't seem to recognise it? Of course, it is those that forsake Judaism for Christ from the 2Ws ministry that runs to the desert after their death. Remember that scriptures say that nobody can harm them before their ministry is over? Consequently, with their removal from the earth after their allotted time on earth, there's nothing left to impede the Beast's overall reign on earth.

    I exhort you to give this some diligent study and you'll find that it is impossible for the time of the Witnesses and the AC to run concurrently.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Do you realise that it's not the AC that will kill the 2Ws?
    It is the AC that kills them.

    So your claim that they will reign at the same time as the AC is not tenable.
    You are wrong. The 2W reign ends 3.5 days before the AC's reign ends.



    1. Are you suggesting that the 2Ws will be on earth during the GT because we know it occurs during the 42 months of the beast?
    Rev 11 tells us this.

    2. Rev 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    a. Between the 2Ws and the saints above who are clearly in heaven, which group do you reckon went to heaven first?
    b. Or do you believe they arrived in heaven at the same time?
    Rev 7:14 is a glimpse of the eternity.


    2. Are you saying that the 2Ws will be on earth during the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:17)
    No, they go up into heaven before the 7th trump sounds.



    If Rev 12:6 occurs before the GT, then what is the woman/Israel running away from?
    satan


    Remember we are told in v-14 that she ran into the wilderness where is nourished for 3.5 years? If we are to believe your argument, the GT is yet to start by the time the woman is in the wilderness. So tell us who or what she's running from?
    Satan

    The purpose of sending the 2Ws is to turn the hearts of Israel back to God
    Is that your personal belief or does scripture support it?


    , although some will believe and the majority will not. My point, therefore, is that if the majority are in the wilderness before or during the time the 2Ws are preaching in Jerusalem, won't their absence defeat the purpose of their assignment?
    The assignment you have presented has not been established as true yet.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Well, according to scripture, the 1260 days that the 2Ws ministry will run is DEFINITELY consecutive to the 3.5 years of the AC's reign. The problem and confusion for some is that, they don't realise that scripture sort of interchanged the years: 3.5 years, 42 months and 1260 days - but they are all the same in length of time.

    The prophecy in Revelation continued where that of Daniel ended. Notice that the 2Ws and their 2600 days ministry was not given to Daniel? The AC did not kill the 2Ws, rather, the angel from the bottomless pit did.

    The 2Ws ministry will last for 1260 days or 3.5 years, after their death and ascension to heaven, the AC will formally commence his own 3.5 years reign. And we know that Jesus returns at the end of this period. So your assertion that Jesus Christ' coming "follows an indefinite period after the 2Ws" isn't true because the timescale is anything but *indefinite* - as it is clearly spelt out.

    The end-time events are if anything, clearly specified in terms of timescale, so it's inexplicable that you repeatedly used "indefinite" to describe events that scripture provided its timescale.
    I refer to the time as "indefinite" because the Scriptures appear to indicate such.

    Rev 11.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    The "coming soon" reference indicates an *indefinite time period.* The word "soon" is indefinite.

    Not only so, but Jesus said his Coming was not to be known by anybody but the Father. Offering a definite 1260 days might indicate exactly what day Christ will Come, namely on the 1260th day.

    But upon closer inspection, Christ does *not* Come on the 1260th day. Rather, the 2 Witnesses are slain at the end of the time of Antichrist's Reign, on the 1260th day. And then they lie on the streets of Jerusalem for another 4 days.

    It is only *after* these 1260 days that the Scriptures indicate that Christ is Coming soon. That is *indefinite.*

    I don't know why you assign a "2600 days" ministry to the 2 Witnesses? I don't see it in the Scriptures. Their ministry is only 1260 days, during the reign of the Antichrist. They are miraculously preserved during the Reign of the Antichrist.

    You indicate that not the Antichrist, but the Beast, kills the 2 Witnesses. I view the Beast and the Antichrist as the same person, although the Beast may also represent the entire Kingdom of the Antichrist. It has 7 heads, which are 7 kings, and 10 horns, which are 10 kingdoms. This is a man and an empire. But it is the man, the Antichrist, that kills the 2 Witnesses, in my opinion.

    Since the Reign of Antichrist actually extends longer than the 1260 days, I have to ask myself, What changes after the 1260th day? My belief is that after the Antichrist kills the 2 Witnesses, the world begins to rebel against the Antichrist, who then calls forth his forces to fight for him at Armageddon. This mobilization takes time--an *indefinite* time.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I refer to the time as "indefinite" because the Scriptures appear to indicate such.

    Rev 11.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    The "coming soon" reference indicates an *indefinite time period.* The word "soon" is indefinite.
    Why didn't you look up what it means in a Greek dictionary?

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    takh-oo'
    Neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb); shortly, that is, without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication of ease) readily: - lightly, quickly.

    It doesn't mean an *indefinite time period.*. You made that up. The actual definition is "without delay" and "suddenly".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I

    Since the Reign of Antichrist actually extends longer than the 1260 days, I have to ask myself, What changes after the 1260th day? My belief is that after the Antichrist kills the 2 Witnesses, the world begins to rebel against the Antichrist, who then calls forth his forces to fight for him at Armageddon. This mobilization takes time--an *indefinite* time.
    The Anti-Christ; the leader of the One World Govt, will come into power when he takes over 3 of the 'kings', or Presidents of 3 regions and the other 7 Presidents confer their power onto him. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12-13

    His reign starts several years before the last 3 1/2 year period, it is only in that time, exactly 1260 days, that he will control all of the world, incl the Lord's holy people, who are every faithful Christian.

    Re the 2 Witnesses. Revelation 11:3 plainly states that they will prophesy for the 1260 days. No more no less. I see the 3 1/2 days that they lie dead, as included in the 1260. The earthquake that will kill 7000, Revelation 11:13, will happen at Jesus' Return. Revelation 16:17-18; The Seventh Bowl, that will kill all the armies mobilized at the Sixth Bowl; Revelation 16:12-14

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I refer to the time as "indefinite" because the Scriptures appear to indicate such.

    Rev 11.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    The "coming soon" reference indicates an *indefinite time period.* The word "soon" is indefinite.

    Not only so, but Jesus said his Coming was not to be known by anybody but the Father. Offering a definite 1260 days might indicate exactly what day Christ will Come, namely on the 1260th day.

    But upon closer inspection, Christ does *not* Come on the 1260th day. Rather, the 2 Witnesses are slain at the end of the time of Antichrist's Reign, on the 1260th day. And then they lie on the streets of Jerusalem for another 4 days.

    It is only *after* these 1260 days that the Scriptures indicate that Christ is Coming soon. That is *indefinite.*

    I don't know why you assign a "2600 days" ministry to the 2 Witnesses? I don't see it in the Scriptures. Their ministry is only 1260 days, during the reign of the Antichrist. They are miraculously preserved during the Reign of the Antichrist.

    You indicate that not the Antichrist, but the Beast, kills the 2 Witnesses. I view the Beast and the Antichrist as the same person, although the Beast may also represent the entire Kingdom of the Antichrist. It has 7 heads, which are 7 kings, and 10 horns, which are 10 kingdoms. This is a man and an empire. But it is the man, the Antichrist, that kills the 2 Witnesses, in my opinion.

    Since the Reign of Antichrist actually extends longer than the 1260 days, I have to ask myself, What changes after the 1260th day? My belief is that after the Antichrist kills the 2 Witnesses, the world begins to rebel against the Antichrist, who then calls forth his forces to fight for him at Armageddon. This mobilization takes time--an *indefinite* time.
    You are making a straightforward event to be complicated. We all agree that the Beast will reign for 3.5 years after which the Messiah returns to defeat him at Armageddon and thereafter, establish his Millennial Kingdom. The problem is that you are forcing an unexplainable indefinite timescale not stated in scripture between the end of the 3.5 years to when the Messiah returns. Contrary to your claim, Rev 11:14 does really support this vacuum you insist exists after the 3.5 years.

    Jesus said that no man knows the day and time of his coming, not that the saints will be clueless to the time frame. Why is eschatology such a fascinating subject? How do we study it and accept that the Beast has 3.5 years to lord it over the earth and, thereafter defeated and still question when Jesus should come knowing it is him that will destroy the Beast?

    You are still out on a limb by claiming that the Witnesses are slain at the end of the AC's reign. The reverse is actually the case; the 2Ws will finish the ministry BEFORE the 3.5 years of the AC commences. If I attributed 2600 days to the 2Ws, then it's a typo. For their ministry will last for 1260 days (Rev 11:3). Because you claim that the time of the Witnesses and the AC is concurrent, is it a surprise that you're left with an unexplainable indefinite time prior to the Glorious Return?

    For a scholar, I'm at a loss why you chose not to examine the clue I provide as proof to who killed the 2Ws? Can you provide any scripture saying that the Beast/AC came out of the bottomless pit? Although your assertion that the Beast represents a kingdom is true it is, however, irrelevant and doesn't meet the criteria of the killer according to: Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. I've asked before and I challenge you once again to provide scripture showing that the Antichrist ascends out of the bottomless pit?

    It is worrisome that many discourse lack objectivity these days. I provided you with a couple of passage: (a) Rev 9:11 showing that Abaddon/Apollyon is the beast/angel that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill the 2Ws and (b) Rev 13:4 showing the Bible's position that no flesh can make war with the Beast. I'm rather disappointed that instead of countering that these passages are not EXACTLY what I said they mean, you conveniently ignored them in pursuit of the same errant argument that I'd proved as false, as if, if you say it long enough, it will become true.

    The folly is your argument is exacerbated by the claim the "world begins to rebel against the Antichrist". A clear contradiction of scripture, vide Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Because you ignored scripture in place of conjecture, you said that the AC will mobilise his force to fight for him at Armageddon. But since we know that Armageddon is strictly between the Lord's army (immortal spirits) and the Antichrist's mortal forces, where does this campaign leave the *world army* you claim to rebel against the AC? Will they fight for the Beast or Jesus? Do you think that Jesus needs their help to defeat the Antichrist?

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It is the AC that kills them.

    You are wrong. The 2W reign ends 3.5 days before the AC's reign ends.

    Rev 11 tells us this.

    Rev 7:14 is a glimpse of the eternity.

    No, they go up into heaven before the 7th trump sounds.

    satan

    Satan

    Is that your personal belief or does scripture support it?

    The assignment you have presented has not been established as true yet.
    Please see post #86.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why didn't you look up what it means in a Greek dictionary?

    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    G5035
    ταχύ
    tachu
    takh-oo'
    Neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb); shortly, that is, without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication of ease) readily: - lightly, quickly.

    It doesn't mean an *indefinite time period.*. You made that up. The actual definition is "without delay" and "suddenly".
    While we disagree on other points, at least we agree on this one.

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Anti-Christ; the leader of the One World Govt, will come into power when he takes over 3 of the 'kings', or Presidents of 3 regions and the other 7 Presidents confer their power onto him. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12-13

    His reign starts several years before the last 3 1/2 year period, it is only in that time, exactly 1260 days, that he will control all of the world, incl the Lord's holy people, who are every faithful Christian.

    Re the 2 Witnesses. Revelation 11:3 plainly states that they will prophesy for the 1260 days. No more no less. I see the 3 1/2 days that they lie dead, as included in the 1260. The earthquake that will kill 7000, Revelation 11:13, will happen at Jesus' Return. Revelation 16:17-18; The Seventh Bowl, that will kill all the armies mobilized at the Sixth Bowl; Revelation 16:12-14
    Keraz, would you say that the 2Ws 1260 days ministry run concurrent or consecutive to the Antichrist's 3.5 years reign?

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    Re: Like a Thief in the Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I, too, believed it was the AC for years until recently. What disqualifies the AC is the fact that this beast came out of the bottomless pit. You will not find anywhere in scripture that the AC came out of the bottomless pit. The *baddie* (according to my 6yrs old nephew) rather is Abaddon or Apollyon (Rev 9:11).
    The mention of Abaddon's rise from the Bottomless Pit is too ambiguous for me to form a doctrine around. It has to be significant, simply because it is mentioned. But inasmuch as I do not personally understand it, I cannot form a doctrine around it.

    Rev 11.6 suggests that the Beast comes up out of the Abyss. And in 13.1 he comes up out of the Sea. In 9.11 Apollyon comes from the sky, and has the key to the Abyss, and is called the Angel of the Abyss. Putting these verses together is not conducive to establishing firm doctrinal positions. The Beast is, I believe, a man and a kingdom. Apollyon is an angel. They could be related, but they do not appear to be the same being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Allow me to elaborate. Of course, the AC will be on earth at the time of the 2Ws, but will only manifest and assume power AFTER the death and ascension of the Witnesses.
    This statement is, of course, an opinion, because *nothing* is said explicitly to this effect. Nowhere does it say that the 2 Witnesses precede the rise of Antichrist's power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    On the contrary, there is a block of 3.5 years albeit, described differently in other places, e.g. 1260 days or 42 months.
    This also is pure opinion. Nowhere are we told there is more than a single block of 3.5 years. My argument is that the basis for the 3.5 years in the book of Revelation is a *single reference* to a period of 3.5 years in Dan 7. Nowhere in Dan 7 is there mentioned *2 periods* of 3.5 years!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Both are equal to 3.5 years. It is impossible not to recognise that corroboration between Dan 9:27 "seven weeks" [seven years] with the end times 2 blocks of 3.5 years.
    There is no connection whatsoever between the 70th Week of Dan 9 and the endtimes. The 70 Weeks were designed to deliver on 6 specific items, which were fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Christ, which would be soon followed by the destruction of the Jewish temple, as well as by the destruction of Jerusalem. None of this has a thing to do with the endtimes, unless you assume it to begin with. To make the leap from the 70th Week to the endtimes is an assumption. It certainly isn't a "given." 70 Weeks of years ran out in the time of Christ's 1st Coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    IOW, the AC's 3.5 years reign starts immediately at the end of the Witnesses 3.5 years ministry.

    For a start, it is not stated anywhere in scripture that "the world will turn against the Antichrist". I don't know where you got that because the scripture is emphatic that no flesh can war against the Beast (Rev 13:4). So this war you invented that purportedly decimates Europe is not actually scriptural. It is only the Lord's army coming from heaven that will battle the Beast army at Armageddon. IOW, it will be between immortal saints headed the Lord of Hosts himself and mortals that make up the AC's army.
    Yes, I'm in the realm of speculation here. I do not see it as sensible that the Antichrist is drawing men and armies to Armageddon to fight a *spiritual war.* I do not see entire cities go up in smoke strictly by miracle--I believe the Scriptures are describing not just a spiritual battle, but also a physical battle where corpses lie on the ground and are eaten by vultures.

    Antichrist is initially viewed as beyond defiance in the world. He becomes the exclusive superpower. However, he has presided over a divided confederation of 10 nations, 3 of which had to be "put down."

    Forces mobilize towards Armageddon *from the East,* which suggests this is far beyond the European zone that Antichrist inhabits. Antichrist only controls, within his immediate rule, only 10 nations. Nations from the East appear to be challenging this, although as you suggest, it is not clear nor explicit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    You know I never advocated that the Book of Revelation of the eschaton is anything, but chronological? But it does not negate the fact some events follow an established sequence in occurrence. As I pointed out in another post, you are clearly mistaken by claiming that the timeline between the resurrection of the Witnesses and the Return of the Messiah is unknown. The space of time actually is 3.5 years.
    I'm not mistaken. I'm saying that there is an indefinite time between the 1264th day and the Last Day of the Age, when Christ comes. And I provided the Scriptural quote. To say Christ is "coming soon" after the 2 Witnesses rise is to declare an indefinite time period between then and the 2nd Coming.

    I do not disagree that in general the reign of Antichrist will be 3.5 years, or 1260 days. This is based on Dan 7, where only a single block of 3.5 years is mentioned. Since Antichrist only reigns for 1260 days, and it is actually a longer period of time before Christ returns, we cannot say that Christ is to return on the 1260th day of Antichrist's reign.

    There is an extended period of time beyond the initial reign of Antichrist, which is not elaborated on. My speculation is that Antichrist's control over the world begins to crumble after the 1260 days, when he puts the 2 Witnesses to death. Then will begin that "indefinite" period of time, when Antichrist gathers armies to Armageddon, before Christ Comes. My guess is that this will involve an immense mobilization of forces against Antichrist at Armageddon. How long that will take I can't guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Scripture is explicit that the Wrath of the Lamb will occur BEFORE Jesus returns. It occurs after the opening of the 6th seal; read Rev 6:12-17
    Again, this is based upon your fallacious view of a strictly sequential chronology in the Revelation. Opening the 7th Seal after opening the 6th Seal is chronological only in the use of symbols, or in the vision John saw. It does not necessarily depict a chronological sequence of the actual events depicted in the 6th and 7th seals! The order of Seals represents a priority in the narration of events, and not a chronology.

    This undoes your whole sense of when the Wrath of God takes place. It is largely something that happens on the Last Day, and in the Last Hour, when Christ returns. There are other pre-eschatological events that are part of God's general wrath, just as it has been throughout the ages. But the Judgment of the Antichrist in this age climaxes at the Coming of Christ, and not before. 2 Thessalonians indicates this.

    2 Thes 1.7 This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
    2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I'm glad we at least have the same understanding regarding the woman in the wilderness. But where you're mistaken is in not realising that it is those Israel that turns to Christ from the preaching of the Witnesses that eventually flee into the wilderness after the death of the Witnesses. It is actually this flight that Matthew had in mind chapter 24 OD! It is impossible for them to flee before the end of the 2Ws ministry.
    I don't believe it's possible for the Woman to flee after the ministry of the 2 Witnesses! They have to flee before their ministry because they go to the wilderness and are there for the entire 3.5 years of the 2 Witnesses' ministry!

    There is no mention of the Woman being converted by the ministry of the 2 Witnesses. In fact, this Woman has to represent not new converts, but mature Christians, in Israel because these belong to the same entity that gave birth to Christ himself! The Woman gave birth to the "Man-Child."

    So the Woman represents, for me, Jewish believers who, in the endtimes, conceal themselves in the wilderness of the Jewish Diaspora. But again, this is pure speculation, because for me, it is very unclear. I couldn't make dogmatic statements about who the Woman really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    You are among those that steadfastly advance the doctrine of Israel's end-time national revival. How come when it eventually comes, you don't seem to recognise it? Of course, it is those that forsake Judaism for Christ from the 2Ws ministry that runs to the desert after their death. Remember that scriptures say that nobody can harm them before their ministry is over? Consequently, with their removal from the earth after their allotted time on earth, there's nothing left to impede the Beast's overall reign on earth.
    On the contrary, the Beast has already threatened the 2 Witnesses with his on-going reign--he is simply prevented from harming them! Israel's national revival begins after Christ's return, and not before. The presence of Jewish believers is purely preparatory for this eventual national revival, which must be preceded by judgment in Israel and by a process of separation between those who repent and those who won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I exhort you to give this some diligent study and you'll find that it is impossible for the time of the Witnesses and the AC to run concurrently.
    You can "exhort" me to follow God's word, but you *cannot* exhort me to follow your speculations. Sorry brother. We need to be guided by God's word, and not by the opinions of others.

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