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Thread: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

  1. #31

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    "Zion travailed, she brought forth her children"

    if you compare that to Rev 12 then it is Zion giving birth to a man child, not someone giving birth to Zion/Israel. This backs up the belief that the woman is Israel and she is giving birth to Christ. That's the obvious and most correct interpretation. The OP has it right.

    Id say the woman is Israel John sees what he sees most likely because Israel is known from Joseph's dream as the sun moon and stars of twelve, Joseph being the twelfth son of Jacob...(.Israel) sun moon and 12 stars.

    “And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?”
    **Genesis‬ *37:9-10‬ *KJV‬‬

    from Israel was to be born the messiah , the man child who is taken to the throne of God. This is written in thier prophecies long before as we mostly know probably already ...

    the birth of messiah was what every Jew was waiting for ...he was to bring salvation when he was seated at Gods right hand, and pour out the spirit upon all people like prophecied in Joel....and elsewhere . Then he came to them just as was spoken long before and many of them rejected him especially the leadership the priests, the elders ect....but from that were they scattered into all the earth testifying to both Jew nd gentile the gospel

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    "Zion travailed, she brought forth her children"

    if you compare that to Rev 12 then it is Zion giving birth to a man child, not someone giving birth to Zion/Israel. This backs up the belief that the woman is Israel and she is giving birth to Christ. That's the obvious and most correct interpretation. The OP has it right.

    Id say the woman is Israel John sees what he sees most likely because Israel is known from Joseph's dream as the sun moon and stars of twelve, Joseph being the twelfth son of Jacob...(.Israel) sun moon and 12 stars.

    “And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?”
    **Genesis‬ *37:9-10‬ *KJV‬‬

    from Israel was to be born the messiah , the man child who is taken to the throne of God. This is written in thier prophecies long before as we mostly know probably already ...

    the birth of messiah was what every Jew was waiting for ...he was to bring salvation when he was seated at Gods right hand, and pour out the spirit upon all people like prophecied in Joel....and elsewhere . Then he came to them just as was spoken long before and many of them rejected him especially the leadership the priests, the elders ect....but from that were they scattered into all the earth testifying to both Jew nd gentile the gospel

  2. #32
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    A vision of Earthly events can be seen in heaven just like one can have a vision in their bedroom but see a place on the other side of the planet.
    We know the vision are events taking place in heaven. John says directly that events are taking place in heaven.

    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven;
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
    7 And there was war in heaven:

    Where was this war on earth with Michael?

    Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    This proves the child was born on the Earth not in heaven else he wouldn't have to be caught UP to heaven.
    It does not say that the man child was born on earth. Notice the woman has yet fled to the wilderness (earth) and is still in heaven when the birth occurs.

    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    And again, if you say this is the birth of Jesus then how does verse 6 and the 3.5 years apply?

    You claim that the child being caught up proves events taking place on earth however look at all the subjects direction DOWN from above to earth.

    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness,
    9 And the great dragon was cast out,


    You have created a straw man on the narrative that the man child is Jesus in error while forcing all scriptures in the chapter to align to such an idea.

  3. #33
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    "Zion travailed, she brought forth her children"

    if you compare that to Rev 12 then it is Zion giving birth to a man child, not someone giving birth to Zion/Israel. This backs up the belief that the woman is Israel and she is giving birth to Christ. That's the obvious and most correct interpretation. The OP has it right.
    Yes the woman represent Zion and the city.

    The woman is NOT Israel. We see a direct interpretation of a woman in Revelation to a city in Rev 17 but now somehow a woman means something else? Rather I think the Spirit is consistent, if the woman is represented as a city then the same interpretation would apply. Note a woman has signifies Zion (city) throughout the scriptures.

    18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    So then Is 66 is a direct parallel to rev 12.

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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Id say the woman is Israel John sees what he sees most likely because Israel is known from Joseph's dream as the sun moon and stars of twelve, Joseph being the twelfth son of Jacob...(.Israel) sun moon and 12 stars.
    Israel would be the 12 stars, the woman a city. Zion.

    The woman is NOT Israel. We see a direct interpretation of a woman in Revelation to a city in Rev 17 but now somehow a woman means something else? Rather I think the Spirit is consistent, if the woman is represented as a city then the same interpretation would apply. Note a woman has signifies Zion (city) throughout the scriptures.

    18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

  5. #35

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    the wedding supper of the lamb do you have any thoughts on that?
    The wedding supper is where our transformation occurs. It's the manifestation of people who were previously made one with Christ.

  6. #36
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You have created a straw man on the narrative that the man child is Jesus in error while forcing all scriptures in the chapter to align to such an idea.
    That isn't what a strawman is so you should look it up so you understand what that fallacy is and what it isn't. Second, the man child is Jesus, no debate against that is valid.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    the man child is Jesus, no debate against that is valid.
    Nope. wrong yet again.....

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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Nope. wrong yet again.....
    * yawn *
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #39

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    * yawn *

    sometimes scriptures blind people because they already have it " figured out"

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    * yawn *

    sometimes scriptures blind people because they already have it " figured out"

  10. #40
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    sometimes scriptures blind people because they already have it " figured out
    "

    I used to believe as the majority taking the simplistic interpretation that the man child was Christ.. But went away from that view once I stopped listening to the main stream fake news and focus on the other scriptures. You my friend are where I was at many years ago....

  11. #41

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3504120]

    Israel would be the 12 stars, the woman a city. Zion.

    The woman is NOT Israel. We see a direct interpretation of a woman in Revelation to a city in Rev 17 but now somehow a woman means something else? Rather I think the Spirit is consistent, if the woman is represented as a city then the same interpretation would apply. Note a woman has signifies Zion (city) throughout the scriptures.

    18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


    what are you talking about?

    doesn't make any sense what you are asking. Revelation 12 the woman clothed with the sun crown of twelve stars , moon under her feet. That is a representation of Israel. Israel meaning Jacob, his wife and thier 12 sons. The messiah Jesus , the only one ever in scripture to be taken to Gods right hand and seated on the throne of David....

    It seems rather obvious where else in scripture is repetitive promises that a son would be born in Israel , of a Virgin, of a woman, and be taken to be seated at Gods right hand until his enemies be made his footstool? There's no other person but the Christ who fills that , again though it seems really obvious to me just looking at the scripture and sort of looking past " special understanding " that doesn't appear in scripture . It's throughout the Old Testament Christ would be born a man like us, would give his life for our sin, and would be raised up, and seated at Gods right hand on his throne....

    there's really no contrary way to view it.

  12. #42

    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3504179][QUOTE]"

    I used to believe as the majority taking the simplistic interpretation that the man child was Christ.. But went away from that view once I stopped listening to the main stream fake news and focus on the other scriptures. You my friend are where I was at many years ago....[/QUOTE


    lol ok well thank you I'll try to get to your high level someday


    it's strange that I've quoted many scriptures over and over of Jesus being born a son, raised up to gods throne.....but you focus on the scripture ?

  13. #43
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    doesn't make any sense what you are asking. Revelation 12 the woman clothed with the sun crown of twelve stars , moon under her feet. That is a representation of Israel. Israel meaning Jacob, his wife and thier 12 sons. The messiah Jesus , the only one ever in scripture to be taken to Gods right hand and seated on the throne of David....
    Israel are the 12 stars, the woman of Israel is the city Zion not Mary.

    It seems rather obvious where else in scripture is repetitive promises that a son would be born in Israel , of a Virgin,
    Simplistic and obvious maybe if you are locked into thinking the man child is the son of Mary in the chapter.

    The woman is a city Zion wherein the 12 stars (tribes) will be around the city

    A woman is directly called a city in Rev 17. Thus rev 12 must be interpreted as such. Israel (Jerusalem/city) is called a woman all throughout scripture but here you want to insert Mary?

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    Thumbsup Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post

    it's strange that I've quoted many scriptures over and over of Jesus being born a son, raised up to gods throne.....

    Jesus was not the only one taken up to God's throne.....

    1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


    If you believe the woman in Rev 12 is Israel/Mary then when did all these things occur?

    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    but you focus on the scripture ?



  15. #45
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    Re: Revelation 12 and some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Jesus was not the only one taken up to God's throne.....
    He was the only one taken up to God's throne and was to rule with a rod of iron which is mentioned again regarding Jesus in Rev 19.

    The harpers were not "caught up" to God's throne. They were already in heaven.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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